The entire thing of Eloquence bards is they’re orators and very silver tongued (hence their feature) so do they have to use an instrument for their features? Or are they able to use performances like monologues and such for their class features? If they have to use an instrument it just feels a little weird for the subclass doesn’t it?
Generally a feature doesn't require any sort of tool unless it explicitly says so. I don't have the Theros book, but I'm gonna say that an Eloquence bard probably doesn't need a musical instrument for anything except perhaps as the occasional spellcasting focus, which is a general bard thing.
If you don't know what I'm talking about here's the quick and dirty: Spells with the (M) component require some sort of physical item in order to cast (Comprehend Languages requires you to have a pinch of soot and salt, for example) but you can use a focus item instead of the eye of newt or wing of bat if the item doesn't cost gold and isn't destroyed by the casting (the spell description would tell you) and for bards their focus items are musical instruments. So for Comprehend Languages you could touch your lute or drum instead of having a pinch of soot and salt.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Technically, the human voice was the first “instrument” ever played.
Ok yeah, but it doesn't count as an instrument for the purposes of bardic spellcasting.
My bard “Loathes musical theater” (because he’s tone deaf and can’t carry a tune in a bucket) so he uses a sock/buskin mask as his focus since he’s an actor. It’s Der&Der, not Derp&Derp, rule of fun. Unless you’re in AL and then it’s all RAW&RAW!!!!
I personally dislike the concept of using musical instruments as my implement. If I want to be a story telling viking skald, running around with a lute makes no sense.
I wish there was another mundane option such as a wand, but I'm not aware of one. So, I try to get a ruby of the warmage and just use a weapon as my implement.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I personally dislike the concept of using musical instruments as my implement. If I want to be a story telling viking skald, running around with a lute makes no sense.
I wish there was another mundane option such as a wand, but I'm not aware of one. So, I try to get a ruby of the warmage and just use a weapon as my implement.
1. that's why I love playing a Swords Bard, and 2. how about a small hand drum on your hip as a war drum?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
No, I'm just not interested in that flavor so I throw it all by the wayside.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I mean, you can also use a components pouch and pull the ingredients and use them as props in your storytelling. If you want a wand, how about conductor's baton? That's pretty much a musical instrument.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
While bards have the advertised feature of being ABLE to use musical instruments as their spellcasting focus, they don't actually HAVE to.
They would, however, need some kind of object to serve as an Arcane Focus...an amulet, item, or something otherwise on their person, which helps to "focus" their spellcasting.
This frees up the bard to be a speaker, singer, or storyteller, rather than a musician.
As long as it isn't a weapon (that's a Sword Bard thing), you have creative freedom to choose. A ring, amulet, stone or earring tends to work for me, because it blends in with the stylish / wealthy image of a bard and doesn't become their "obvious" focus...it becomes their words.
An interesting example from D&D lore is Regis, the halfling character from the Drizzt novels; he has a ruby necklace that gave him the unique ability to make convincing arguments / persuade people that would otherwise be unreasonable. People would get mesmerized by the gem, and Regis would do his thing...the equivalent of casting the "Suggestion" spell.
Regis was a talker & a diplomat...fighting wasn't exactly his strong suit (he got some lucky shots in every now and then, though).
If we're going by RAW, technically bards are not mentioned as being able to use regular arcane foci for spellcasting. Only musical instruments and a component pouch.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If we're going by RAW, technically bards are not mentioned as being able to use regular arcane foci for spellcasting. Only musical instruments and a component pouch.
Interesting! (looks up Bard mechanics)
Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your bard spells. Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a bard spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
...apparently, all they would need to do is speak to cast their spells. So that's neat.
What gets me is this:
Spellcasting Focus
You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
...that "can" leads me to believe that the spellcasting focus is rather flexible.
I always figured keeping it broad enough for character concepts was for added flexibility.
Ok so let's look at the spellcasting rules shall we?
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
Here we see that all spellcasters in general can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus to cast their spells, but then it points to the Equipment chapter. If we then go to chapter 5 we find:
Arcane Focus. An arcane focus is a special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10.
Druidic Focus. A druidic focus might be a sprig of mistletoe or holly, a wand or scepter made of yew or another special wood, a staff drawn whole out of a living tree, or a totem object incorporating feathers, fur, bones, and teeth from sacred animals. A druid can use such an object as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10.
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
We've covered the focus items for sorcerers, warlocks, wizards, druids, clerics, and paladins. No mention yet of the bards. And if you look at the Arcane Focus section (wands, staffs, orbs and such) you see that sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks CAN use them, but no one else is mentioned so I don't think anyone else can use them, unless you think a paladin should be able to use a wand as a focus?
If we continue past the Adventuring gear section to the Tools section we find:
Musical Instrument. Several of the most common types of musical instruments are shown on the table as examples. If you have proficiency with a given musical instrument, you can add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to play music with the instrument. A bard can use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. Each type of musical instrument requires a separate proficiency.
Well now we have the spell focus items for bards, right there, but for more confirmation, let's go to the bard class itself. As you yourself pointes out, it says:
Spellcasting Focus
You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
Notice how it points us to the Tools section specifically, where musical instruments are listed and how it does not point us to the Adventuring Gear section, where the other types of spellcasting foci are listed?
Every other spellcaster class mentions specifically what they can use as foci and does not allow them to use other kinds of foci. The wizard class says they can use an "arcane focus" specifically and does not mention holy symbols or druidic foci. So unless you think a wizard should be able to use a holy symbol to cast their spells, I'm pretty sure bards can only use musical instruments as spellcasting foci, not any other kind of focus, like a wand. And music or oration are spoken of as sources of magic kind of like how study is the source of wizard magic and faith is the source of clerical magic. They are not specifically mentioned as spellcasting foci. They could be used as verbal components, of course.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Now sure, if you want to expand that for flexibility who's stopping you? No one. Stepping outside of RAW is a time honored tradition, but it is still stepping outside of RAW into homebrew territory.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
...that "can" leads me to believe that the spellcasting focus is rather flexible.
Pretty sure the correct way to read that is "can" as opposed to "cannot." It is rules permission to use musical instruments as spellcasting foci, just like wizards are given rules permission to use wands, orbs, and staves. It is not blanket permission to use any other type of focus item.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Now sure, if you want to expand that for flexibility who's stopping you? No one. Stepping outside of RAW is a time honored tradition, but it is still stepping outside of RAW into homebrew territory.
I'll admit...that is some pretty heavy implication (and a much appreciated breakdown!).
I think I'll live dangerously and take the vagueness and run with it. (Lest the gods strike me down)
Technically, the human voice was the first “instrument” ever played.
Ok yeah, but it doesn't count as an instrument for the purposes of bardic spellcasting.
My bard “Loathes musical theater” (because he’s tone deaf and can’t carry a tune in a bucket) so he uses a sock/buskin mask as his focus since he’s an actor. It’s Der&Der, not Derp&Derp, rule of fun. Unless you’re in AL and then it’s all RAW&RAW!!!!
I had a heavy metal bard who just bashed his head against his shield.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
My Bard is more con-man than musician; I've just assumed that for casting purposes he has a flute inside one sleeve that he can draw easily for casting like a wand, or play as a distraction or such.
The entire thing of Eloquence bards is they’re orators and very silver tongued (hence their feature) so do they have to use an instrument for their features? Or are they able to use performances like monologues and such for their class features? If they have to use an instrument it just feels a little weird for the subclass doesn’t it?
Generally a feature doesn't require any sort of tool unless it explicitly says so. I don't have the Theros book, but I'm gonna say that an Eloquence bard probably doesn't need a musical instrument for anything except perhaps as the occasional spellcasting focus, which is a general bard thing.
If you don't know what I'm talking about here's the quick and dirty: Spells with the (M) component require some sort of physical item in order to cast (Comprehend Languages requires you to have a pinch of soot and salt, for example) but you can use a focus item instead of the eye of newt or wing of bat if the item doesn't cost gold and isn't destroyed by the casting (the spell description would tell you) and for bards their focus items are musical instruments. So for Comprehend Languages you could touch your lute or drum instead of having a pinch of soot and salt.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Technically, the human voice was the first “instrument” ever played.
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Ok yeah, but it doesn't count as an instrument for the purposes of bardic spellcasting.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
My bard “Loathes musical theater” (because he’s tone deaf and can’t carry a tune in a bucket) so he uses a sock/buskin mask as his focus since he’s an actor. It’s Der&Der, not Derp&Derp, rule of fun. Unless you’re in AL and then it’s all RAW&RAW!!!!
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
I personally dislike the concept of using musical instruments as my implement. If I want to be a story telling viking skald, running around with a lute makes no sense.
I wish there was another mundane option such as a wand, but I'm not aware of one. So, I try to get a ruby of the warmage and just use a weapon as my implement.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
1. that's why I love playing a Swords Bard, and 2. how about a small hand drum on your hip as a war drum?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
No, I'm just not interested in that flavor so I throw it all by the wayside.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I suggest you ask your DM to allow a speaking instrument. An easel would be a bit large, but you can take:
I mean, you can also use a components pouch and pull the ingredients and use them as props in your storytelling. If you want a wand, how about conductor's baton? That's pretty much a musical instrument.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
While bards have the advertised feature of being ABLE to use musical instruments as their spellcasting focus, they don't actually HAVE to.
They would, however, need some kind of object to serve as an Arcane Focus...an amulet, item, or something otherwise on their person, which helps to "focus" their spellcasting.
This frees up the bard to be a speaker, singer, or storyteller, rather than a musician.
As long as it isn't a weapon (that's a Sword Bard thing), you have creative freedom to choose. A ring, amulet, stone or earring tends to work for me, because it blends in with the stylish / wealthy image of a bard and doesn't become their "obvious" focus...it becomes their words.
An interesting example from D&D lore is Regis, the halfling character from the Drizzt novels; he has a ruby necklace that gave him the unique ability to make convincing arguments / persuade people that would otherwise be unreasonable. People would get mesmerized by the gem, and Regis would do his thing...the equivalent of casting the "Suggestion" spell.
Regis was a talker & a diplomat...fighting wasn't exactly his strong suit (he got some lucky shots in every now and then, though).
If we're going by RAW, technically bards are not mentioned as being able to use regular arcane foci for spellcasting. Only musical instruments and a component pouch.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Interesting! (looks up Bard mechanics)
Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your bard spells. Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a bard spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
...apparently, all they would need to do is speak to cast their spells. So that's neat.
What gets me is this:
Spellcasting Focus
You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
...that "can" leads me to believe that the spellcasting focus is rather flexible.
I always figured keeping it broad enough for character concepts was for added flexibility.
Ok so let's look at the spellcasting rules shall we?
Here we see that all spellcasters in general can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus to cast their spells, but then it points to the Equipment chapter. If we then go to chapter 5 we find:
We've covered the focus items for sorcerers, warlocks, wizards, druids, clerics, and paladins. No mention yet of the bards. And if you look at the Arcane Focus section (wands, staffs, orbs and such) you see that sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks CAN use them, but no one else is mentioned so I don't think anyone else can use them, unless you think a paladin should be able to use a wand as a focus?
If we continue past the Adventuring gear section to the Tools section we find:
Well now we have the spell focus items for bards, right there, but for more confirmation, let's go to the bard class itself. As you yourself pointes out, it says:
Notice how it points us to the Tools section specifically, where musical instruments are listed and how it does not point us to the Adventuring Gear section, where the other types of spellcasting foci are listed?
Every other spellcaster class mentions specifically what they can use as foci and does not allow them to use other kinds of foci. The wizard class says they can use an "arcane focus" specifically and does not mention holy symbols or druidic foci. So unless you think a wizard should be able to use a holy symbol to cast their spells, I'm pretty sure bards can only use musical instruments as spellcasting foci, not any other kind of focus, like a wand. And music or oration are spoken of as sources of magic kind of like how study is the source of wizard magic and faith is the source of clerical magic. They are not specifically mentioned as spellcasting foci. They could be used as verbal components, of course.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Now sure, if you want to expand that for flexibility who's stopping you? No one. Stepping outside of RAW is a time honored tradition, but it is still stepping outside of RAW into homebrew territory.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Pretty sure the correct way to read that is "can" as opposed to "cannot." It is rules permission to use musical instruments as spellcasting foci, just like wizards are given rules permission to use wands, orbs, and staves. It is not blanket permission to use any other type of focus item.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'll admit...that is some pretty heavy implication (and a much appreciated breakdown!).
I think I'll live dangerously and take the vagueness and run with it. (Lest the gods strike me down)
I had a heavy metal bard who just bashed his head against his shield.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
i have a rapper bard. and the dm lets me use his voice for the instrument.
My Bard is more con-man than musician; I've just assumed that for casting purposes he has a flute inside one sleeve that he can draw easily for casting like a wand, or play as a distraction or such.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
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