This is not a "wanting your cake and eating it too" scenario. A rogue wanting a home-brew two handed finesse greatsword is NOT the same thing as this.
Druids are just asking to have full use of their class features. The rule isn't "proficient in all light armor and hide armor". If that was what the developers intended then they would have and should have written it as such. Just as rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, rapiers and shortswords.
The devs even state that there is no balance issue with a druid wearing metal armor and it's purely a bit flavor that's a hold over from previous editions. So it's disingenuous to argue it's mechanical min-maxing.
Druids are proficient in all light and medium armor and all shields. That is the rule. Druids are asking to have full of use of their rules.
Unless someone here is a material engineer to argue about the Yield Strength and Tensile Strength of different materials available under the capacity of magically enhanced construction it's all about facilitating fun in a game.
I'm going to disagree with InquisitiveCoder. We just earlier agreed that magical wood would make acceptable "armor" as would dragon scales and the chitan of giant insects. We're talking about "realism" in a game with magic!
A magic item is one thing. Mundane items should still respect the laws of physics insofar as they don't get in the way of playing the game.
Trying to get around a limitation built into the class with homebrew non-magical armor is too much wanting to have your cake and eat it too for my tastes. Kinda like a rogue asking for a homebrew two-handed finesse weapon so they can sneak attack with it. Both classes were designed with the official list of equipment in mind.
If you really want to get into the stone armor thing, I doubt it'd work even if you could magically fabricate it. Part of what makes metal armor useful is that it deforms. Stone/ceramic/crystalline materials might be hard to scratch and support great loads, but they shatter with impacts.
Again, with anything that involves stuff not listed in official game books, YMMV, and every game is going to "break" under different conditions. If your rogue wants a 2handed finesse weapon (like say, a katana?) why not make a quest for him to find a master swordsmith capable of forging such a wonder? He doesn't just get to go to the shop like a fighter does for his weapon, so it can be better than normal (like how a +1 great sword an exist without ruining balance).
WITH THAT SAID: "I'd doubt it would work even if you could magically fabricate it" loses me. The second you bring magic in, you can just hand wave away real world physics. I just don't understand how "this is a magically enhanced sword that cuts better than any sword the real world has ever seen" wouldn't just always trash non-magic armor. Or how a giant fireball detonating on a character doesn't destroy their clothes every time. Or how there's no repair mechanics for weapons/armor. Applying real world logic to D&D falls apart immediately upon contact, unless you want to add a whole bunch of accounting rules to your game, which is fine, but not RAW.
If a player wants something OP but reasonable, figure out where in their progression it would fit (tier 1 or tier 4?) and set something up to allow that to happen by then. A druid wants to wear stone armor? Fine, but he's going to need to find a Duergar armorsmith willing to forge it specifically for him. This involves going to the underdark, making contacts, and finding a Duergar who's willing to trade with surface beings. Now you've got an adventure hook and a whole set of quests that can go on to make it happen. Maybe the players want to do that and help their friend out, maybe they want to save the village from kobolds. But you've at least created a way for people to play the game they were hoping to play with you.
This is not a "wanting your cake and eating it too" scenario. A rogue wanting a home-brew two handed finesse greatsword is NOT the same thing as this.
Druids are just asking to have full use of their class features. The rule isn't "proficient in all light armor and hide armor". If that was what the developers intended then they would have and should have written it as such.
If the developers had intended non-magical non-metal medium armor to be easily accessible to druids, such a thing would be in the Player's Handbook's equipment list. It's not. Restricting them to non-metal armor leaves the door open for wearing things like Dragon Scale Mail. Magic items are supposed to make characters stronger than the baseline assumptions of the game, are much harder to get your hands on and require the DM's buy-in. And, fortunately, there are rules and guidelines for how to go about acquiring such things.
WITH THAT SAID: "I'd doubt it would work even if you could magically fabricate it" loses me. The second you bring magic in, you can just hand wave away real world physics.
I was addressing FullMetalBunny's speculation about the lack of real world stone armor being due manufacturing limitations. Using magic like Stone Shape or Fabricate to shape stone into the right shapes doesn't change the fact that stone will break on impact.
If you create some sort of stone-based magic armor, that's another thing. You can hand-wave the limitations of the material, and it's going to be much harder to obtain than mundane armor, as you've pointed out.
druids are balanced around the armour tables, not the material the armour is made of. ie you could have studied leather made of shark skin and shark teeth. or a breastplate that is a hollowed out log. or a half plate made out of a crocodile, ribs skin bones and maybe some turtle shell shoulder and elbow pads. you only need to adhere to the armour table for price, ac, stealth and weight. the key thing is have fun and use that imagination of yours!
Druids can wear metal armor but their DM might determine their are consequences. From March 2016 Sage Advice-
"As long as you abide by your character’s proficiencies, you’re not going to break anything in the game system, but you might undermine the story and the world being created in your campaign.."
Earlier editions of D&D gave druids the Ironwood spell. Druids could craft armor out of wood and then make the wood hard as iron. It’s interesting that they haven’t adapted this spell for 5th edition. Perhaps they see some balance issues in it?
Giant spider silk armor might make an interesting homebrew item.
In Adventurers League games, I can think of 4 types of non-metal medium or heavy armor, from memory. There's, +1 scale armor made of wood, +2 half plate made (by dwarves) out of stone, Dragonscale armor and Scorpion armor. There may be others. As the material from which the armor is made doesn't impact the power of the item (per the "Special Features" section of the DMG), DMs in a party with a druid ought to make sure that these sorts of armor are realistically accessible. If the druid doesn't have any way of getting non-metal medium or heavy armor, that's analogous to the DM saying to a dex based melee character that none of the merchants, anywhere, sell rapiers and they never will.
This is not a "wanting your cake and eating it too" scenario. A rogue wanting a home-brew two handed finesse greatsword is NOT the same thing as this.
Druids are just asking to have full use of their class features. The rule isn't "proficient in all light armor and hide armor". If that was what the developers intended then they would have and should have written it as such.
If the developers had intended non-magical non-metal medium armor to be easily accessible to druids, such a thing would be in the Player's Handbook's equipment list. It's not. Restricting them to non-metal armor leaves the door open for wearing things like Dragon Scale Mail. Magic items are supposed to make characters stronger than the baseline assumptions of the game, are much harder to get your hands on and require the DM's buy-in. And, fortunately, there are rules and guidelines for how to go about acquiring such things.
WITH THAT SAID: "I'd doubt it would work even if you could magically fabricate it" loses me. The second you bring magic in, you can just hand wave away real world physics.
I was addressing FullMetalBunny's speculation about the lack of real world stone armor being due manufacturing limitations. Using magic like Stone Shape or Fabricate to shape stone into the right shapes doesn't change the fact that stone will break on impact.
If you create some sort of stone-based magic armor, that's another thing. You can hand-wave the limitations of the material, and it's going to be much harder to obtain than mundane armor, as you've pointed out.
The developers have already said there are no game balance issues with druids having full access to their class features, ie, medium armor. This is another sad case of game developers trying to add fluff that is often unwelcome.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I would totally rule that the metal in armor could be substituted with wood, stone, petrified wood, bone, scales, hardened leather, shells, or any combination therein. The trade-off being a decrease in durability, and an increase in rarity and therefore price.
Nope. Studded leather armor is allowed, else druids wouldn't have any use for any other weapons than scimitars, as they would need dex to get better AC. I would say tell your DM that you plan to try to create better armor. I showed my players by granting them ankheg armor. Works like studded leather but gives acid resistance. But I feel your pain.
Okay so I don't feel like reading through all of this, sorry if it's bee said before~ but just drop a small note in
Druid followers of Mielikki can wear metal armour, as she governs over druids and rangers her druids have some ranger-esk abilities. It would of course mandate that you worship a goddess, but she's very indirect and non intrusive. So unless lack of religion [or another religion] is already a huge part of your character, it probably wouldn't be an issue.
I got that information from [here] they cited the book 'Faith and Pantheons' which I can't refer to, to see if the info is wholly correct. All the same, this is what I know that's 'not homebrew'.
Thanks for the helpful source reference! However just to clear up a common misconception- Druids can wear metal armor they are proficient in. Mike Mearls has confirmed this on multiple separate occasions. It is a cultural taboo with most Druids and their can be RP consequences but mechanically, it has been confirmed a number of times. No homebrew required.
TL;DR: Studded leather could refer to a "rivit" pressed heavy gamebison (like a squire or "rich" peasant) or a set of "linothorax" linens (like a Macedonian pikemen), full metal has always been for the "rich", either as a status symbol or making them an unstoppable "tank".
If you were to compare to IRL armor: Padded to studded leather could be compared to what is known as a unfitted gamebison (padded) up to "linothorax" linens ("studded" leathers). Many easily , and even some late era, armor was not made of common metal of the era (bronze to iron) even once steel was in "artisan" production.
Paper, leathers, hides & layers of woven fabrics were common, cheap and light. Past that just like how studded leather or hide is more common than suits of full plate.... so would the "+3" versions be equally more common than their plate counterparts. (saying, finding +3 hide might not be as hard as finding +3 full plate)
Dragon scale mail (the magic item) provides a non-homebrew armor with better AC than hide that isn't metal.
Studded leather is or isn't metal as determined by each individual group. Some don't mind having the studs be non-metal materials like bone or stone. Some groups realize that what D&D calls studded leather is a misunderstanding of brigandine armor, and consider it metal because it was numerous metal plates sandwiched between layers of soft leather and attached by rivets (giving the look of studs)
As for whether druids are "doomed" to lower ACs for a reason, that reason is flavor, and it isn't much of a doom since their armor options aren't all that far behind, plus they have the barkskin spell to get them heavy-armor comparable AC if they want it and can't get it some other way.
I do somewhat agree, but I think you would be better to use "linothorax" linens than brigandine armor in the example. Brigandine armor would be more akin to the various parts of what 5e might call "breast plate"... a hard chest piece, banded metal on leather to allow flex. "Linothorax linens" The term linothorax is a modern term taken from Greek, meaning "wearing a breastplate of linen", it is referenced often in the historical accounts of Phillip and Alexander of Macedon.... very different from the "bronze encased" Spartan hoplites most ppl think of.
Well, there are official non-metal armors aren't there?
Like the Survival Mantle from Volo's Guide that's like equivalent to Half-Plate, but doesn't sound like it's made of metal - "carapace-like augmentation encases portions of the wearer's shoulders, neck, and chest", there's also Scorpion armor (which is cursed and needs Heavy Armor Proficiency, but is made from Scorpion Chitin), which gives to reason that one could probably fashion armor from killed giant Scorpions or Crabs.
Also, there's half-plate made from Mushrooms in Out of the Abyss i think? and If you're playing Eberron, the Living Armors are made from Chitin too.
Well, there are official non-metal armors aren't there?
Like the Survival Mantle from Volo's Guide that's like equivalent to Half-Plate, but doesn't sound like it's made of metal - "carapace-like augmentation encases portions of the wearer's shoulders, neck, and chest", there's also Scorpion armor (which is cursed and needs Heavy Armor Proficiency, but is made from Scorpion Chitin), which gives to reason that one could probably fashion armor from killed giant Scorpions or Crabs.
Also, there's half-plate made from Mushrooms in Out of the Abyss i think? and If you're playing Eberron, the Living Armors are made from Chitin too.
there is a part in DMG: Minor Property, Strange Material' pages 142-143 of the DMG
So if you/your DM want to homebrew up mundane armor better than studded leather or hide you could. Past that, in Forgotten Realms, your limited to RAW non-metal stuff like you mentioned. "Survival Mantle" is your generic best bet, if you can find some: it IS half-plate (from text & stats), its NOT metal and doesn't count as magical (so could be +3 enchanted)
A survival mantle is equivalent to a suit of non-magical half plate armor
This is not a "wanting your cake and eating it too" scenario.
A rogue wanting a home-brew two handed finesse greatsword is NOT the same thing as this.
Druids are just asking to have full use of their class features.
The rule isn't "proficient in all light armor and hide armor". If that was what the developers intended then they would have and should have written it as such.
Just as rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, rapiers and shortswords.
The devs even state that there is no balance issue with a druid wearing metal armor and it's purely a bit flavor that's a hold over from previous editions. So it's disingenuous to argue it's mechanical min-maxing.
Druids are proficient in all light and medium armor and all shields. That is the rule. Druids are asking to have full of use of their rules.
Unless someone here is a material engineer to argue about the Yield Strength and Tensile Strength of different materials available under the capacity of magically enhanced construction it's all about facilitating fun in a game.
Again, with anything that involves stuff not listed in official game books, YMMV, and every game is going to "break" under different conditions. If your rogue wants a 2handed finesse weapon (like say, a katana?) why not make a quest for him to find a master swordsmith capable of forging such a wonder? He doesn't just get to go to the shop like a fighter does for his weapon, so it can be better than normal (like how a +1 great sword an exist without ruining balance).
WITH THAT SAID: "I'd doubt it would work even if you could magically fabricate it" loses me. The second you bring magic in, you can just hand wave away real world physics. I just don't understand how "this is a magically enhanced sword that cuts better than any sword the real world has ever seen" wouldn't just always trash non-magic armor. Or how a giant fireball detonating on a character doesn't destroy their clothes every time. Or how there's no repair mechanics for weapons/armor. Applying real world logic to D&D falls apart immediately upon contact, unless you want to add a whole bunch of accounting rules to your game, which is fine, but not RAW.
If a player wants something OP but reasonable, figure out where in their progression it would fit (tier 1 or tier 4?) and set something up to allow that to happen by then. A druid wants to wear stone armor? Fine, but he's going to need to find a Duergar armorsmith willing to forge it specifically for him. This involves going to the underdark, making contacts, and finding a Duergar who's willing to trade with surface beings. Now you've got an adventure hook and a whole set of quests that can go on to make it happen. Maybe the players want to do that and help their friend out, maybe they want to save the village from kobolds. But you've at least created a way for people to play the game they were hoping to play with you.
If the developers had intended non-magical non-metal medium armor to be easily accessible to druids, such a thing would be in the Player's Handbook's equipment list. It's not. Restricting them to non-metal armor leaves the door open for wearing things like Dragon Scale Mail. Magic items are supposed to make characters stronger than the baseline assumptions of the game, are much harder to get your hands on and require the DM's buy-in. And, fortunately, there are rules and guidelines for how to go about acquiring such things.
I was addressing FullMetalBunny's speculation about the lack of real world stone armor being due manufacturing limitations. Using magic like Stone Shape or Fabricate to shape stone into the right shapes doesn't change the fact that stone will break on impact.
If you create some sort of stone-based magic armor, that's another thing. You can hand-wave the limitations of the material, and it's going to be much harder to obtain than mundane armor, as you've pointed out.
You guys forget about Spiked Armor, which is not necessary made of metal.
druids are balanced around the armour tables, not the material the armour is made of. ie you could have studied leather made of shark skin and shark teeth. or a breastplate that is a hollowed out log. or a half plate made out of a crocodile, ribs skin bones and maybe some turtle shell shoulder and elbow pads. you only need to adhere to the armour table for price, ac, stealth and weight. the key thing is have fun and use that imagination of yours!
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Druids can wear metal armor but their DM might determine their are consequences. From March 2016 Sage Advice-
"As long as you abide by your character’s proficiencies, you’re not going to break anything in the game system, but you might undermine the story and the world being created in your campaign.."
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-march-2016
Earlier editions of D&D gave druids the Ironwood spell. Druids could craft armor out of wood and then make the wood hard as iron. It’s interesting that they haven’t adapted this spell for 5th edition. Perhaps they see some balance issues in it?
Giant spider silk armor might make an interesting homebrew item.
In Adventurers League games, I can think of 4 types of non-metal medium or heavy armor, from memory. There's, +1 scale armor made of wood, +2 half plate made (by dwarves) out of stone, Dragonscale armor and Scorpion armor. There may be others. As the material from which the armor is made doesn't impact the power of the item (per the "Special Features" section of the DMG), DMs in a party with a druid ought to make sure that these sorts of armor are realistically accessible. If the druid doesn't have any way of getting non-metal medium or heavy armor, that's analogous to the DM saying to a dex based melee character that none of the merchants, anywhere, sell rapiers and they never will.
Druidic Stone Shaped Diamond Armor FTW?
The developers have already said there are no game balance issues with druids having full access to their class features, ie, medium armor. This is another sad case of game developers trying to add fluff that is often unwelcome.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I would totally rule that the metal in armor could be substituted with wood, stone, petrified wood, bone, scales, hardened leather, shells, or any combination therein. The trade-off being a decrease in durability, and an increase in rarity and therefore price.
Nope. Studded leather armor is allowed, else druids wouldn't have any use for any other weapons than scimitars, as they would need dex to get better AC. I would say tell your DM that you plan to try to create better armor. I showed my players by granting them ankheg armor. Works like studded leather but gives acid resistance.
But I feel your pain.
Okay so I don't feel like reading through all of this, sorry if it's bee said before~ but just drop a small note in
Druid followers of Mielikki can wear metal armour, as she governs over druids and rangers her druids have some ranger-esk abilities.
It would of course mandate that you worship a goddess, but she's very indirect and non intrusive. So unless lack of religion [or another religion] is already a huge part of your character, it probably wouldn't be an issue.
I got that information from [here] they cited the book 'Faith and Pantheons' which I can't refer to, to see if the info is wholly correct. All the same, this is what I know that's 'not homebrew'.
Thanks for the helpful source reference! However just to clear up a common misconception- Druids can wear metal armor they are proficient in. Mike Mearls has confirmed this on multiple separate occasions. It is a cultural taboo with most Druids and their can be RP consequences but mechanically, it has been confirmed a number of times. No homebrew required.
Good to know!
I really like all the deities in dnd, at this point I know a lot of 'useless' lore facts. So I like to share when reliant.
TL;DR: Studded leather could refer to a "rivit" pressed heavy gamebison (like a squire or "rich" peasant) or a set of "linothorax" linens (like a Macedonian pikemen), full metal has always been for the "rich", either as a status symbol or making them an unstoppable "tank".
If you were to compare to IRL armor: Padded to studded leather could be compared to what is known as a unfitted gamebison (padded) up to "linothorax" linens ("studded" leathers). Many easily , and even some late era, armor was not made of common metal of the era (bronze to iron) even once steel was in "artisan" production.
Paper, leathers, hides & layers of woven fabrics were common, cheap and light. Past that just like how studded leather or hide is more common than suits of full plate.... so would the "+3" versions be equally more common than their plate counterparts. (saying, finding +3 hide might not be as hard as finding +3 full plate)
I do somewhat agree, but I think you would be better to use "linothorax" linens than brigandine armor in the example. Brigandine armor would be more akin to the various parts of what 5e might call "breast plate"... a hard chest piece, banded metal on leather to allow flex. "Linothorax linens" The term linothorax is a modern term taken from Greek, meaning "wearing a breastplate of linen", it is referenced often in the historical accounts of Phillip and Alexander of Macedon.... very different from the "bronze encased" Spartan hoplites most ppl think of.
Well, there are official non-metal armors aren't there?
Like the Survival Mantle from Volo's Guide that's like equivalent to Half-Plate, but doesn't sound like it's made of metal - "carapace-like augmentation encases portions of the wearer's shoulders, neck, and chest", there's also Scorpion armor (which is cursed and needs Heavy Armor Proficiency, but is made from Scorpion Chitin), which gives to reason that one could probably fashion armor from killed giant Scorpions or Crabs.
Also, there's half-plate made from Mushrooms in Out of the Abyss i think? and If you're playing Eberron, the Living Armors are made from Chitin too.
there is a part in DMG: Minor Property, Strange Material' pages 142-143 of the DMG
So if you/your DM want to homebrew up mundane armor better than studded leather or hide you could. Past that, in Forgotten Realms, your limited to RAW non-metal stuff like you mentioned. "Survival Mantle" is your generic best bet, if you can find some: it IS half-plate (from text & stats), its NOT metal and doesn't count as magical (so could be +3 enchanted)
Druids don't need magic to create ironwood. Ironwood is literally a type of actual tree.