I’ve had this idea to make a Druid that’s somewhat competent at melee combat, and isn’t just a walking zoo. I wanted to know what your best animal forms are that could retain the use of hands. The only thing I’ve found in my books is the Ape CR1/2.
I’m assuming you’re talking about being a moondruid, which is really the only Druid where you want to be using your wildshape forms primarily for combat. If so, your natural attacks such as biting/clawing/charging/etc should be more than enough to support you in melee.
But if you still have you heart set on attempting to use weapons in beast form, you’re going to be needing hands that can manipulate things about as well as a primate with opposable thumbs, which there’s not a lot of options for. Theoretically both the normal and the giant octopus could “hold” things somewhat like a person, and maybe if you ask your dm really nicely you could reflavor the black bear stat block to a panda bear, which has pseudo-thumbs.
I’ve had this idea to make a Druid that’s somewhat competent at melee combat, and isn’t just a walking zoo. I wanted to know what your best animal forms are that could retain the use of hands. The only thing I’ve found in my books is the Ape CR1/2.
How necessary are actual hands to this? IOW, what do you plan to use your hands for most of the time while in Wildshape?
I expect to be using a Shillelagh Quarterstaff. Mostly I’d be running the character as a healing Druid (dreams) with Shillelagh and focusing on using the staff for any damage I’d be doing, saving slots for support stuff.
It’s probably not practical, but I’d like to use the wildshape as some kind of “temp hp.” The physical stats of the animal wouldn’t be super important if I can still use the staff with wisdom. Looking at the Ape stats, that would be roughly two 20hp boosts every short rest. The less I have to heal myself, the more I have in the tank for the party.
I’ve had this idea to make a Druid that’s somewhat competent at melee combat, and isn’t just a walking zoo. I wanted to know what your best animal forms are that could retain the use of hands. The only thing I’ve found in my books is the Ape CR1/2.
Humans are the only ape that has hands.
Thats not even remotely true. Simply google “do apes have hands or paws” and these are the top 5 results:
How necessary are actual hands to this? IOW, what do you plan to use your hands for most of the time while in Wildshape?
I expect to be using a Shillelagh Quarterstaff. Mostly I’d be running the character as a healing Druid (dreams) with Shillelagh and focusing on using the staff for any damage I’d be doing, saving slots for support stuff.
It’s probably not practical, but I’d like to use the wildshape as some kind of “temp hp.” The physical stats of the animal wouldn’t be super important if I can still use the staff with wisdom. Looking at the Ape stats, that would be roughly two 20hp boosts every short rest. The less I have to heal myself, the more I have in the tank for the party.
In that case, there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't use Ape or Giant Ape (assuming Moon Druid and high enough level). If you really just want to "stick" to a Shillelagh build, you won't get stumped by playing a Spores Druid (as WolfofBees suggested).
Giant Ape would be nice, but it’s not exactly covered by Wildshape restrictions at a CR7. I suppose the 20hp Ape will do if no one else knows of something else officially released?
I am sure it is already known to everyone but you cannot cast spells like Cure Wounds or Healing Word while Wild Shaped. You can still access your Balm of the Summer Court ability in Wild Shape though.
I play a Circle of the Land druid but I find it is very rarely worth it to use an Action to Wild Shape I'm combat. I do have Misty Step though, so getting out of a tight spot isn't too hard.
Giant Ape would be nice, but it’s not exactly covered by Wildshape restrictions at a CR7. I suppose the 20hp Ape will do if no one else knows of something else officially released?
Okay, since you don't actually need hands to swing a stick, you might be able to convince the DM that a CR 4 Elephent could use its trunk to swing the Shillelagh staff. I don't think that is going to be better than the Gore (3d8+6 piercing) or Stomp (3d10+6 bludgeoning) actions that the Elephant can perform, though. And you can only turn into an Elephant if you are playing a Moon Druid.
I’ve had this idea to make a Druid that’s somewhat competent at melee combat, and isn’t just a walking zoo. I wanted to know what your best animal forms are that could retain the use of hands. The only thing I’ve found in my books is the Ape CR1/2.
Humans are the only ape that has hands.
Thats not even remotely true. Simply google “do apes have hands or paws” and these are the top 5 results:
Cambridge: Hands are defined by their ability to hold things. This is explicitly what OP cared about. In case you need a citation (this is absolutely trivial, you should have learned it in elementary school), only humans have opposable thumbs. OP wants to wield a weapon. A gorilla, chimpanzee, orang utan, or gibbon - the only non-human apes - has the wrong "hand" structure to wield a weapon.
I can keep going, but why bother? The only thing that matters here is that OP wants to wield a weapon and non-human apes don't have appendages the right shape to do so. Someone else correctly stated that octopi absolutely do (all of their tentacles oppose all of their other tentacles).
EDIT: As to someone else's elephant suggestion, the fact that Loxodons explicitly can't wield weapons with their trunk should make you think long and hard about claiming an elephant's trunk dexterity is good enough for dueling purposes.
I’ve had this idea to make a Druid that’s somewhat competent at melee combat, and isn’t just a walking zoo. I wanted to know what your best animal forms are that could retain the use of hands. The only thing I’ve found in my books is the Ape CR1/2.
Humans are the only ape that has hands.
Thats not even remotely true. Simply google “do apes have hands or paws” and these are the top 5 results:
Cambridge: Hands are defined by their ability to hold things. This is explicitly what OP cared about. In case you need a citation (this is absolutely trivial, you should have learned it in elementary school), only humans have opposable thumbs. OP wants to wield a weapon. A gorilla, chimpanzee, orang utan, or gibbon - the only non-human apes - has the wrong "hand" structure to wield a weapon.
I can keep going, but why bother? The only thing that matters here is that OP wants to wield a weapon and non-human apes don't have appendages the right shape to do so. Someone else correctly stated that octopi absolutely do (all of their tentacles oppose all of their other tentacles).
Look, the OP, asked about "hands" in order to have a creature form that can wield a staff. This isn't an argument that apes should be able to do college-level sketch art or even use a pair of chopsticks. Several apes have been observed to wield sticks as tools in the wild without human demonstration or reward. It's really not at all far fetched that a D&D version of an ape could wield a Shillelagh.
I’ve had this idea to make a Druid that’s somewhat competent at melee combat, and isn’t just a walking zoo. I wanted to know what your best animal forms are that could retain the use of hands. The only thing I’ve found in my books is the Ape CR1/2.
Humans are the only ape that has hands.
Thats not even remotely true. Simply google “do apes have hands or paws” and these are the top 5 results:
Cambridge: Hands are defined by their ability to hold things. This is explicitly what OP cared about. In case you need a citation (this is absolutely trivial, you should have learned it in elementary school), only humans have opposable thumbs. OP wants to wield a weapon. A gorilla, chimpanzee, orang utan, or gibbon - the only non-human apes - has the wrong "hand" structure to wield a weapon.
I can keep going, but why bother? The only thing that matters here is that OP wants to wield a weapon and non-human apes don't have appendages the right shape to do so. Someone else correctly stated that octopi absolutely do (all of their tentacles oppose all of their other tentacles).
EDIT: As to someone else's elephant suggestion, the fact that Loxodons explicitly can't wield weapons with their trunk should make you think long and hard about claiming an elephant's trunk dexterity is good enough for dueling purposes.
This is the thing that you'd simply reply "Absolutely false." to, right? Half-concocted research that just gets you to the answer that you want, regardless of information on the topic. You even link to an article specifically discussing spider monkeys, which have some of the least useful primate opposable thumbs. One of your articles doesn't even say the thing you attribute to it. That’s a YIKES.
A definition of "Thumb" From Napier and Napier The Natural History of Primates:
A movement by which the pulp surface of the thumb is placed squarely in contact with - or diametrically opposite to - the terminal pads of one or all of the remaining digits" While an opposable thumb is one of the hallmarks of humans, it is not unique to the species. What is unique to Homo sapiens sapiens is the broad area of the contact achieved between the compressible pulps of the index finger and thumb. Not all primates are capable of opposing their thumbs. The necessary movement for true opposability is the rotation of the about its own long axis. Without this rotation the movement of the thumb towards the palm is a form of pseudo-opposability where pulp-to-pulp contact of the thumb and digits is not possible.
Under this definition, all great apes have opposable thumbs.
Apes are your only useful option. Maybe baboons too but they are useless in combat. Thematically the monkey king sounds more like a monk as your primary class with a 2 level dip in moon druid. Shilelagh would work very well with a monk. Turn into a monkey and use shilelagh and martial arts to kick some but!
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I’ve had this idea to make a Druid that’s somewhat competent at melee combat, and isn’t just a walking zoo. I wanted to know what your best animal forms are that could retain the use of hands. The only thing I’ve found in my books is the Ape CR1/2.
I’m assuming you’re talking about being a moondruid, which is really the only Druid where you want to be using your wildshape forms primarily for combat. If so, your natural attacks such as biting/clawing/charging/etc should be more than enough to support you in melee.
But if you still have you heart set on attempting to use weapons in beast form, you’re going to be needing hands that can manipulate things about as well as a primate with opposable thumbs, which there’s not a lot of options for. Theoretically both the normal and the giant octopus could “hold” things somewhat like a person, and maybe if you ask your dm really nicely you could reflavor the black bear stat block to a panda bear, which has pseudo-thumbs.
Humans are the only ape that has hands.
How necessary are actual hands to this? IOW, what do you plan to use your hands for most of the time while in Wildshape?
I expect to be using a Shillelagh Quarterstaff. Mostly I’d be running the character as a healing Druid (dreams) with Shillelagh and focusing on using the staff for any damage I’d be doing, saving slots for support stuff.
It’s probably not practical, but I’d like to use the wildshape as some kind of “temp hp.” The physical stats of the animal wouldn’t be super important if I can still use the staff with wisdom. Looking at the Ape stats, that would be roughly two 20hp boosts every short rest. The less I have to heal myself, the more I have in the tank for the party.
It sounds a lot like what you want is very similar to circle of spores. Consider reflavoring or homebrewing that?
Thats not even remotely true. Simply google “do apes have hands or paws” and these are the top 5 results:
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
In that case, there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't use Ape or Giant Ape (assuming Moon Druid and high enough level). If you really just want to "stick" to a Shillelagh build, you won't get stumped by playing a Spores Druid (as WolfofBees suggested).
Giant Ape would be nice, but it’s not exactly covered by Wildshape restrictions at a CR7. I suppose the 20hp Ape will do if no one else knows of something else officially released?
I am sure it is already known to everyone but you cannot cast spells like Cure Wounds or Healing Word while Wild Shaped. You can still access your Balm of the Summer Court ability in Wild Shape though.
I play a Circle of the Land druid but I find it is very rarely worth it to use an Action to Wild Shape I'm combat. I do have Misty Step though, so getting out of a tight spot isn't too hard.
Okay, since you don't actually need hands to swing a stick, you might be able to convince the DM that a CR 4 Elephent could use its trunk to swing the Shillelagh staff. I don't think that is going to be better than the Gore (3d8+6 piercing) or Stomp (3d10+6 bludgeoning) actions that the Elephant can perform, though. And you can only turn into an Elephant if you are playing a Moon Druid.
This suggestion is spot on as it is what I did when I was wanting to play something as you have described.
What the hell did you google that your results are about monkeys? Not even remotely relevant.
EDIT: As to someone else's elephant suggestion, the fact that Loxodons explicitly can't wield weapons with their trunk should make you think long and hard about claiming an elephant's trunk dexterity is good enough for dueling purposes.
Look, the OP, asked about "hands" in order to have a creature form that can wield a staff. This isn't an argument that apes should be able to do college-level sketch art or even use a pair of chopsticks. Several apes have been observed to wield sticks as tools in the wild without human demonstration or reward. It's really not at all far fetched that a D&D version of an ape could wield a Shillelagh.
This is the thing that you'd simply reply "Absolutely false." to, right? Half-concocted research that just gets you to the answer that you want, regardless of information on the topic. You even link to an article specifically discussing spider monkeys, which have some of the least useful primate opposable thumbs. One of your articles doesn't even say the thing you attribute to it. That’s a YIKES.
A definition of "Thumb" From Napier and Napier The Natural History of Primates:
Under this definition, all great apes have opposable thumbs.
Apes are your only useful option. Maybe baboons too but they are useless in combat. Thematically the monkey king sounds more like a monk as your primary class with a 2 level dip in moon druid. Shilelagh would work very well with a monk. Turn into a monkey and use shilelagh and martial arts to kick some but!