So I've recently started shifting towards the D&D Beyond sheets and away from Roll20's sheets because they're just so much better. In the campaign I'm DMing one player is a druid: T. In a campaign I'm a player in, I'm also playing a druid: R. We discovered that you can add the Wildshape forms and were thrilled. Everything seems to work fine with one strange exception.
T added Giant Wolf Spider to his list of forms, but the Stealth bonus lists as +5 instead of the accurate +7.
R added Giant Wolf Spider to his list of forms, but the Stealth bonus lists as +7, like its supposed to.
Why?
T is an elf druid with 14 dexterity and no proficiency in Stealth.
R is a halfling druid with 18 dexterity but does have proficiency in Stealth.
If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
My interpretation of this line makes it sound like both T and R should have the same bonus. However after encountering this inconsistency I'm wondering if my understanding of Wild Shape has been wrong all this time. Does R gain the (otherwise mechanically impossible) +7 because he has proficiency in the skill? I think I'm answering my own question here, but I'm just looking for verification that this isn't some kind of bug.
The extras tab of the character sheet can't quite do everything they want it to do, and there are some math bugs concerning how character features interact with monster stats.
I imagine the planned monster builder update (and some necessary changes based around that) will address most of these issues.
They should both have the +7, but it isn't mechanically impossible, the spider in question has expertise in stealth, giving it +4 on top of its +3 dex bonus.
It's a math bug and it's caused in some kind of glitch with how it provides proficiency when interacting with the characters own proficiencies. you may encounter a few other weird little bugs like this unfortunately. They crop up in complex systems unfortunately but if you report it they will do their best to fix it and hopefully stuff they are putting in that are coming will address this and some others.
I know I'm late, but I'm genuinely interested in an update ; the situation golw describes hasn't changed... and looks like RAW to me :
If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
means you can't use the bonus if it is lower OR you do not have the same proficiency ; and thus you only use your own proficiency bonus (that you either had, or gained), on top of your (updated) ability modifier...
doesn't it ?
Whatever the answer, If you can spread the word, I think wild shape is a strong candidate for a future Sage Advice Compendium errata : some wording clarification/examples would definitively help. Even the moon druid 101 guide got (and still is?) confused !
I know I'm late, but I'm genuinely interested in an update ; the situation golw describes hasn't changed... and looks like RAW to me :
If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
means you can't use the bonus if it is lower OR you do not have the same proficiency ; and thus you only use your own proficiency bonus (that you either had, or gained), on top of your (updated) ability modifier...
doesn't it ?
Whatever the answer, If you can spread the word, I think wild shape is a strong candidate for a future Sage Advice Compendium errata : some wording clarification/examples would definitively help. Even the moon druid 101 guide got (and still is?) confused !
Your question is poorly worded, and I cant tell what you are asking. But...
When you wild shape, you keep your skill and save proficiencies and gain the beasts. If there is overlap, use the higher bonus. That is all it says.
English is not my native language - and I guess trying to include logical semantics was a bad idea. Sorry !
Let's use more examples, for sake of clarity: T has a +2 dexterity modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check. R has a +4 dexterity modifier, an +2 proficiency bonus, and proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check. P has a +1 dexterity modifier, a +6 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check. N has a +5 wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Perception ; he wild shapes into a Giant Octopus, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check. L has a +5 Strength modifier, a +4 proficiency bonus, and proficiency in Athletics ; he wild shapes into a Giant Centipede, and rolls for a Strentgh(Athletics) ability check.
Option 1 : If you only consider the number in the stat block when both have proficiency. (=D&D Beyond's current implementation) T adds 5 : His dexterity modifier switched to 3 when wild shaping, and he adds his +2 proficiency bonus, as he gained proficiency through wild shape. He can't use the spider's "standard" +7, as he had no proficiency before wild shaping. R adds 7 : His dexterity modifier also switched to 3 when wild shaping ; adding the +2 proficiency bonus, result is only 5. As both he and the spider do have proficiency, he can use the spider's +7 instead. P adds 9 : His dexterity modifier switched to 3 when wild shaping, and he adds his +6 proficiency bonus, as he gained proficiency through wild shape. N adds 7 : His +5 wisdom modifier, and his +2 proficiency bonus. L adds 1 : His strength modifier switched to -3, and he adds his +4 proficiency bonus.
Option 2 : Highest between character sheet and monster stat block (is that what you mean with "use the higher bonus" ?) T adds 7 : from the spider's stat block, which is better than his own +4. R adds 7 : from the spider's stat block, which is better than his own +6. P adds 7 : from the spider's stat block, which is better than his own +1. N adds 4 : from the stat block, which is better than his own +1. L adds 9 : from his own character sheet. He can wrestle a black bear.
I think this option can't be right - because it would mean that ability score updates have no impact on skill checks. Plus, I find the Giant Centipede wrestler idea silly.
Option 3 : Best Proficiency Bonus when both have proficiency (from Druid 101 : Wild Shape Guide). I guess it also means that you use the creature's proficiency bonus when it has proficiency, and your character's proficiency bonus when you have proficiency. T adds 7 : using the creature's ability modifier (+3) and proficiency bonus (+4) R adds 7 : using the creature's ability modifier (+3), and the better proficiency bonus (+4 > +2) P adds 7 : using the creature's ability modifier (+3), he can't use his own +6, and adds the creature's +4. N adds 9 : using his own wisdom modifier (+5), and the creature's proficiency bonus (+4) L adds 1 : His strength modifier switched to -3, and he adds his +4 proficiency bonus.
This one had some support from Mike Mearls on twitter - but it means you have to calculate the creature's proficiency bonus, which does not seem the intent.
Sorry for the wall of text - but I've been struggling with wild shape rules for more than a year. I really think that the current D&D Beyond implementation is correctly getting rules as written - but if it is not, I'd really like some clarification on those rules.
English is not my native language - and I guess trying to include logical semantics was a bad idea. Sorry !
Let's use more examples, for sake of clarity: T has a +2 dexterity modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check. R has a +4 dexterity modifier, an +2 proficiency bonus, and proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check. P has a +1 dexterity modifier, a +6 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check. N has a +5 wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Perception ; he wild shapes into a Giant Octopus, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check. L has a +5 Strength modifier, a +4 proficiency bonus, and proficiency in Athletics ; he wild shapes into a Giant Centipede, and rolls for a Strentgh(Athletics) ability check.
Sorry for the wall of text - but I've been struggling with wild shape rules for more than a year. I really think that the current D&D Beyond implementation is correctly getting rules as written - but if it is not, I'd really like some clarification on those rules.
T and R roll with +7 because their +5 (spider's DEX +3, proficiency +2) is less than the spider's natural +7.
P rolls with +9. He has the spider's +3 DEX now, and still has his +6 proficiency.
N is a little trickier. The wild shape feature doesn't mention expertise and monster stats don't draw special attention to them. Either way, he keeps his WIS in wild shape, so it is either +7 or +9 depending on how DM feels about expertise (which could get crazier at higher levels).
L uses the centipede's -3 STR and his +4 proficiency, so rolls with +1.
I like this one ; if you stick with N=7, it looks consistent enough. I've supported this elsewhere - let's call it option 4. There seems to be more people convinced by options 1, 2 or 3, though... That's the reason I think an "official" clarification through Sage Advice Compendium is needed : the fact that there are so many options, with many people supporting very different answers, does show that the current rules are at best confusing.
If option 4 is indeed RAI, there's an easy fix to make it RAW through Sage Advice Compendium :
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
In the meantime, I do think those deleted words have a purpose, and that's why I think option 1 (= the current D&D Beyond implementation) is the correct one. I may be wrong ! That's why I'm looking for an official (ideally WotC, but D&D Beyond would be fine) answer on this, as I feel we're reaching the limits of debate between enthusiasts.
From my reading of wildshape, you get to keep bonus numbers from your character sheet that have a P next to them, you get all of the bonuses in the stat block of the beast, and there is never a need to recalculate anything. If you have proficiency, either from your caster form or your beast form, the bonus is already correctly calculated and you just select the higher. If you don't have proficiency, you calculate as normal (your stat bonus for mentals and the creature's for physicals). I always take the simplest reading on wildshape: recalculating proficiency bonuses on the fly is not what you should be doing.
From my reading of wildshape, you get to keep bonus numbers from your character sheet that have a P next to them, you get all of the bonuses in the stat block of the beast, and there is never a need to recalculate anything. If you have proficiency, either from your caster form or your beast form, the bonus is already correctly calculated and you just select the higher. If you don't have proficiency, you calculate as normal (your stat bonus for mentals and the creature's for physicals). I always take the simplest reading on wildshape: recalculating proficiency bonuses on the fly is not what you should be doing.
Guess you are using option 2, then ! Happy Giant Centipede wrestling!
It is a perfectly fine houserule ; and *maybe* it also matches the rules as written... even if I fail to read it that way :). Hopefully, we'll have a definitive answer someday!
Here's why I think the way it works now (+5 for Druid T and +7 for Druid R) is actually RAW.
As a Druid, you calculate skills with your proficiency bonus (if at least one of either you or the shape have proficiency) and the attribute modifier of your current form- your squirrel form isn't going to keep that bonus to strength your half-orc Druid has because it's physically smaller and weaker, even if you have proficiency in athletics. Your bonus can actually decrease for certain skills going to some forms because your physical attributes might drop like a rock. You can have lower values for your physical skills in wild shape than on your Druid sheet, because those bonuses can drop.
People get confused on this because your mental attributes stay the same, meaning that your mental checks will, except for that word salad about using the creature's proficiency block, stay the same when in a wild shape. I'll get back to this later, but for now let's stick with the physical examples for now.
The way that I understand it, the basic rules for monsters (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/monsters#Skills) does imply that these higher bonuses reflect "heightened expertise", I don't think this implies the Rogue/Bard expertise class feature as much as an increased proficiency bonus for that particular skill. While this wording is a bit janky, the note that the bonus is usually double its proficiency bonus should stand to differentiate it from its class feature counterpart, which is always double your proficiency bonus.This is reflected in the bonus in the box. However, this heightened expertise is not indicated to inherit in the wording of the class feature, only the proficiencies you have.
However, as a Druid, you don't actually care about that bonus in the box. You're still your Druid, just adding your proficiency to a possibly different set of skills using a possibly different set of stats. Since you would gain stealth proficiency and a dexterity of 16, any Druid, regardless of its attributes, would have +5 if they're not proficient in Stealth if their proficiency bonus is +2, because that's how it should calculate. Then it would increase to +6 when the Druid's proficiency increases to +3, then +7 when the proficiency bonus increases to +4, because you're just adding your attribute modifier and your proficiency bonus.
That's perfectly fine until you have proficiency in stealth and the whole thing goes crazy, suddenly tossing your level 2 Druid a whopping +7 to stealth. How? It's that text that makes everything ambiguous. If you're proficient, you can basically inherit the bonus from the stat block using that clause about using the creature's score in the stat block in the class feature, so you ignore the fact that by all logic you should have +5. You get +7. You can't get above +7 doing this. Your proficiency bonus won't double from this, it just gets overridden if it would be decreased.
Mental attributes are dicier because they can actually get two sources of being better- this "heightened proficiency" or the creature being better at that attribute than you. So if you have WIS 10 and turn into an Eagle, and your proficiency bonus is +2, you would get +4 perception if (and only if) your Druid is already proficient in perception. Otherwise, you would get +2 from gaining the proficiency, but not any other bonuses, since your attributes don't change. That's because your modifier bonus and proficiency bonus calculation is overridden by the creature's skill block, just like the physical example above, with the same limitations. It won't increase to +5/+6 as your proficiency increase to +3/+4 because it's not using the formula and giving you that attribute bonus, it just gives you +4 because eagles are good at perception, not because your formula is tweaked in any way.
Think of it the same way as AC formulas work. You can get features that change the AC formula- adding different attributes, gaining flat bonuses, etc. These are part of the formula. However, if you have a feature that sets it to a value (say, for example, player Tortles' 17 AC, though that's a bit of a lie since shields can be added to that formula, but it's the best example here). You can't increase that value using the formula- armor and DEX don't apply (in this case because of a specific rule, but the illustration works similarly for Druid because the bonus for Druid is also because of a specific rule). This means that your Tortle might have killer AC compared to the rest of the party at level 1, but by level 20 being unable to benefit from stat increases and magical loot really drags down your AC. The same thing applies for this formula.
So, to summarize, the issue in the OP isn't an issue because it's RAW: you shouldn't be taking the higher value unless your Druid is proficient in stealth before assuming giant wolf spider form. You shouldn't worry about calculating your value with the giant wolf spider's implied expertise because you don't inherit it if it's not listed as a feature, (so don't double your proficiency bonus) just use the value provided if it is higher. The rest of my rant is solely directed at helping people understand some of the nuances of why you do this. I've had players who played as Druids who didn't understand this (and, to be fair, it took me quite a while to do it right), but RAW you're probably overthinking it. Just follow your formula (attribute bonus + proficiency bonus) and only take the higher from the creature if you have proficiency before entering wild shape.
Now, as a DM, if you want to let your druids take higher bonuses, even if not proficient, that's fine, more power to you. But RAW you have room to object to your Druid complaining that they're not as good as a spider at stealth. Spiders have their entire lives as spiders for experience, your Druid just borrowed their form and (if not proficient) doesn't even think about hiding properly half the time. You might get some of their innate skill, but not the full understanding of how using eight legs to move silently or hiding on cave ceilings works perfectly. Worst case scenario, if your Druid is insistent that they should get the bump and you really don't want them to have it, force them to role-play as a spider to get it. Win-win- your Druid learns the true power of nature, and you get to watch your player skitter around the table eating flies.
Here's why I think the way it works now (+5 for Druid T and +7 for Druid R) is actually RAW.
As a Druid, you calculate skills with your proficiency bonus (if at least one of either you or the shape have proficiency) and the attribute modifier of your current form- your squirrel form isn't going to keep that bonus to strength your half-orc Druid has because it's physically smaller and weaker, even if you have proficiency in athletics. Your bonus can actually decrease for certain skills going to some forms because your physical attributes might drop like a rock. You can have lower values for your physical skills in wild shape than on your Druid sheet, because those bonuses can drop.
A wall of text to explain one sentence in the wildshape rule, and your first sentence has a huge assumption in it that takes the general rule for computing skill bonuses and applies over feature that already says how skill bonuses are to be determined for skills in which you are both proficient: use the bonus (it says "bonus," not "proficiency bonus") on the character sheet or the stat block that is higher. A lot of people see "bonus" referring to skills with proficiency and get it confused with "proficiency bonus." "Proficiency bonus" is a number that just goes up for leveling up, and is referred to using exactly those two words (except when using articles to refer to a previous sentence in the same paragraph). "Bonus" in the wildshape rules refers to the number you add to your d20 for a particular skill or ability check (proficiency bonus is never mentioned in the wildshape rules).
People get confused on this because your mental attributes stay the same, meaning that your mental checks will, except for that word salad about using the creature's proficiency block, stay the same when in a wild shape. I'll get back to this later, but for now let's stick with the physical examples for now.
The way that I understand it, the basic rules for monsters (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/monsters#Skills) does imply that these higher bonuses reflect "heightened expertise", I don't think this implies the Rogue/Bard expertise class feature as much as an increased proficiency bonus for that particular skill. While this wording is a bit janky, the note that the bonus is usually double its proficiency bonus should stand to differentiate it from its class feature counterpart, which is always double your proficiency bonus.This is reflected in the bonus in the box. However, this heightened expertise is not indicated to inherit in the wording of the class feature, only the proficiencies you have.
That's perfectly fine until you have proficiency in stealth and the whole thing goes crazy, suddenly tossing your level 2 Druid a whopping +7 to stealth. How? It's that text that makes everything ambiguous. If you're proficient, you can basically inherit the bonus from the stat block using that clause about using the creature's score in the stat block in the class feature, so you ignore the fact that by all logic you should have +5. You get +7. You can't get above +7 doing this. Your proficiency bonus won't double from this, it just gets overridden if it would be decreased.
And then all of the sudden the level 3 barbarian has +10 or +11 to stealth (obviously, there IS a druid in the party if we're complaining about wildshape), and the rest of the party might be even higher. I really think that the designers want characters to succeed at stealth, and even for the most part the non-stealthy ones. Also, remember that a druid uses a resource to get into that shape, whereas a rogue has had +7 for free since level 1 that is only going to go up as they level.
Think of it the same way as AC formulas work. You can get features that change the AC formula- adding different attributes, gaining flat bonuses, etc. These are part of the formula. ...
This might be a good start to a point, but the problem is you didn't make a comparison between how AC works and how skills work. You get one AC calculation, as you said. If skill bonuses work the same way, then you'd get the druid's skill calculation (which is the one on your character sheet) or the animals (which is the bonus in the stat block). Adding the proficiency bonus from one form to the ability bonus of another form is like adding your unarmored defense to your regular armor AC. You are still cherrypicking, not taking the calculations as they are.
I understand and disagree with the rest of your post, but for the most part if you reread the sentence in wildshape and understand my first statement on "bonus" vs "proficiency bonus" then you'd obviously come to the same conclusion I did, RAW there is no need to re-calculate anything.
A wall of text to explain one sentence in the wildshape rule, and your first sentence has a huge assumption in it that takes the general rule for computing skill bonuses and applies over feature that already says how skill bonuses are to be determined for skills in which you are both proficient: use the bonus (it says "bonus," not "proficiency bonus") on the character sheet or the stat block that is higher. A lot of people see "bonus" referring to skills with proficiency and get it confused with "proficiency bonus." "Proficiency bonus" is a number that just goes up for leveling up, and is referred to using exactly those two words (except when using articles to refer to a previous sentence in the same paragraph). "Bonus" in the wildshape rules refers to the number you add to your d20 for a particular skill or ability check (proficiency bonus is never mentioned in the wildshape rules).
That "bonus" word from the Wild Shape rules is indeed confusing. The Player Handbook uses it as a synonym for "proficiency bonus" in chapter 7 : Using Ability Scores. It also states that this (proficiency) bonus is incorporated in monster's stat blocks. The Monster Manual is the only source that uses the "skill bonus" concept, in the Statistics > Ability Scores section. Rules are consistent on the fact that ability checks are solved by adding the result of a d20, an ability modifier, and eventually the relevant proficiency bonus. The "skill bonus" is only a subtotal, displayed on the creature's stat block (and most character sheets...), for convenience.
However, it is only the third step of the relevant section of the Wild Shape rules :
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.
You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.
If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Wether you have the same proficiency as the creature or not, does not change the fact that you first have to update some ability scores / modifiers (exactly as when you wear Gauntelets of Ogre Power) , and second gain the creature's proficiencies (as gaining proficiencies through class features). If your character sheet displays some "skill bonus" subtotals, you also have to update them.
Only then can you compare the "bonus" (which, indeed, is probably intended to be the skill bonus - even if RAW suggest the opposite...) between your (updated) character sheet, and the creature's stat block.
I do agree that you shouldn't mix Expertise from Bard/Rogue and heightened expertise from creatures, though. Doubling an already doubled proficiency bonus (Druid/rogue with expertise in perception shapechanging into an adult gold dragon) seems quite far from both RAW and RAI.
I just want to point out that you can only wildshape into creatures with a proficiency bonus of 2 (the minimum). So it doesn't make sense for there to be a rule dedicated to what to do if this minimum number is higher than yours. (Moon druids can eventually wildshape into creatures with +3 proficiency bonus, but by then the druid's bonus is +5).
So "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours," has to be referring to skill proficiency and skill bonus.
A wall of text to explain one sentence in the wildshape rule, and your first sentence has a huge assumption in it that takes the general rule for computing skill bonuses and applies over feature that already says how skill bonuses are to be determined for skills in which you are both proficient: use the bonus (it says "bonus," not "proficiency bonus") on the character sheet or the stat block that is higher. A lot of people see "bonus" referring to skills with proficiency and get it confused with "proficiency bonus." "Proficiency bonus" is a number that just goes up for leveling up, and is referred to using exactly those two words (except when using articles to refer to a previous sentence in the same paragraph). "Bonus" in the wildshape rules refers to the number you add to your d20 for a particular skill or ability check (proficiency bonus is never mentioned in the wildshape rules).
That "bonus" word from the Wild Shape rules is indeed confusing. The Player Handbook uses it as a synonym for "proficiency bonus" in chapter 7 : Using Ability Scores. It also states that this (proficiency) bonus is incorporated in monster's stat blocks.
Only with articles or pronouns that make clear reference to "proficiency bonus" in previous sentences or phrases.
Exactly. Beasts are monsters, so we would certainly expect to use monster rules when dealing with them.
Rules are consistent on the fact that ability checks are solved by adding the result of a d20, an ability modifier, and eventually the relevant proficiency bonus. The "skill bonus" is only a subtotal, displayed on the creature's stat block (and most character sheets...), for convenience.
However, it is only the third step of the relevant section of the Wild Shape rules :
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.
You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.
If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Wether you have the same proficiency as the creature or not, does not change the fact that you first have to update some ability scores / modifiers (exactly as when you wear Gauntelets of Ogre Power) , and second gain the creature's proficiencies (as gaining proficiencies through class features). If your character sheet displays some "skill bonus" subtotals, you also have to update them.
Ok, first, they're not steps. Second, they do not ask you to update anything. They tell you to replace statistics with some exceptions. When you replace your statistics, you no longer have anything from your character sheet except for whatever the text of wildshape says you get to bring along. What are those things? Your skill and saving throw proficiencies (not your proficiency bonus) and your mental stats. So RAW you do not keep your proficiency bonus. What does "if the creature has the same proficiency as you" mean? it means that if the proficiencies that we brought overlap with the ones that we gained, then the next part happens. What does the next part say? Does it ask us to reverse engineer the proficiency bonus of the monster, and figure out how to re-calculate our skills? No, it tells us to use the bonus (to the skill or saving throw) that is larger.
Only then can you compare the "bonus" (which, indeed, is probably intended to be the skill bonus - even if RAW suggest the opposite...) between your (updated) character sheet, and the creature's stat block.
It is intended to be that way because that is how it is written.
Obviously we disagree ; there may be some musinderstanding though, as I do not think you have to reverse engineer the creature's proficiency bonus.
Let's set that third part aside for now, and focus on situations where proficiencies do not overlap. I'd be really interested in knowing how you'd handle these new examples :
A has a -1 Strength modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, proficiency in Athletics ; he wild shapes into a Brown Bear, and rolls for a Strength(Athletics) ability check. B has a -1 Strength modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, proficiency in Athletics ; he attunes to Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and rolls for a Strength(Athletics) ability check. C has a +4 Wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, no proficiency in Perception ; he wild shapes into a Frog, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check. D has a +4 Wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, no proficiency in Perception ; he choses "Perception" when using his Channel Divinity : Knowledge of the Ages class feature, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check.
I'd let them all use a skill bonus of +6, but I guess you'd rule differently ?
A has a -1 Strength modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, proficiency in Athletics ; he wild shapes into a Brown Bear, and rolls for a Strength(Athletics) ability check. B has a -1 Strength modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, proficiency in Athletics ; he attunes to Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and rolls for a Strength(Athletics) ability check. C has a +4 Wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, no proficiency in Perception ; he wild shapes into a Frog, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check. D has a +4 Wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, no proficiency in Perception ; he choses "Perception" when using his Channel Divinity : Knowledge of the Ages class feature, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check.
I'd let them all use a skill bonus of +6, but I guess you'd rule differently ?
So I've recently started shifting towards the D&D Beyond sheets and away from Roll20's sheets because they're just so much better. In the campaign I'm DMing one player is a druid: T. In a campaign I'm a player in, I'm also playing a druid: R. We discovered that you can add the Wildshape forms and were thrilled. Everything seems to work fine with one strange exception.
T added Giant Wolf Spider to his list of forms, but the Stealth bonus lists as +5 instead of the accurate +7.
R added Giant Wolf Spider to his list of forms, but the Stealth bonus lists as +7, like its supposed to.
Why?
T is an elf druid with 14 dexterity and no proficiency in Stealth.
R is a halfling druid with 18 dexterity but does have proficiency in Stealth.
My interpretation of this line makes it sound like both T and R should have the same bonus. However after encountering this inconsistency I'm wondering if my understanding of Wild Shape has been wrong all this time. Does R gain the (otherwise mechanically impossible) +7 because he has proficiency in the skill? I think I'm answering my own question here, but I'm just looking for verification that this isn't some kind of bug.
It is indeed a bug. The bonus should be the highest between the character's (considering proficiency) and the beast's.
The extras tab of the character sheet can't quite do everything they want it to do, and there are some math bugs concerning how character features interact with monster stats.
I imagine the planned monster builder update (and some necessary changes based around that) will address most of these issues.
They should both have the +7, but it isn't mechanically impossible, the spider in question has expertise in stealth, giving it +4 on top of its +3 dex bonus.
It's a math bug and it's caused in some kind of glitch with how it provides proficiency when interacting with the characters own proficiencies. you may encounter a few other weird little bugs like this unfortunately. They crop up in complex systems unfortunately but if you report it they will do their best to fix it and hopefully stuff they are putting in that are coming will address this and some others.
Yeah, there is an issue at the moment with the way it's calculated.
It's logged with the character team and we're hoping to get that resolved soon.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I know I'm late, but I'm genuinely interested in an update ; the situation golw describes hasn't changed... and looks like RAW to me :
means you can't use the bonus if it is lower OR you do not have the same proficiency ;
and thus you only use your own proficiency bonus (that you either had, or gained), on top of your (updated) ability modifier...
doesn't it ?
Whatever the answer, If you can spread the word, I think wild shape is a strong candidate for a future Sage Advice Compendium errata : some wording clarification/examples would definitively help. Even the moon druid 101 guide got (and still is?) confused !
Your question is poorly worded, and I cant tell what you are asking. But...
When you wild shape, you keep your skill and save proficiencies and gain the beasts. If there is overlap, use the higher bonus. That is all it says.
English is not my native language - and I guess trying to include logical semantics was a bad idea. Sorry !
Let's use more examples, for sake of clarity:
T has a +2 dexterity modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check.
R has a +4 dexterity modifier, an +2 proficiency bonus, and proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check.
P has a +1 dexterity modifier, a +6 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Stealth ; he wild shapes into a Giant Wolf Spider, and rolls for a Dexterity(Stealth) ability check.
N has a +5 wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, and no proficiency in Perception ; he wild shapes into a Giant Octopus, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check.
L has a +5 Strength modifier, a +4 proficiency bonus, and proficiency in Athletics ; he wild shapes into a Giant Centipede, and rolls for a Strentgh(Athletics) ability check.
Option 1 : If you only consider the number in the stat block when both have proficiency. (=D&D Beyond's current implementation)
T adds 5 : His dexterity modifier switched to 3 when wild shaping, and he adds his +2 proficiency bonus, as he gained proficiency through wild shape. He can't use the spider's "standard" +7, as he had no proficiency before wild shaping.
R adds 7 : His dexterity modifier also switched to 3 when wild shaping ; adding the +2 proficiency bonus, result is only 5. As both he and the spider do have proficiency, he can use the spider's +7 instead.
P adds 9 : His dexterity modifier switched to 3 when wild shaping, and he adds his +6 proficiency bonus, as he gained proficiency through wild shape.
N adds 7 : His +5 wisdom modifier, and his +2 proficiency bonus.
L adds 1 : His strength modifier switched to -3, and he adds his +4 proficiency bonus.
Option 2 : Highest between character sheet and monster stat block (is that what you mean with "use the higher bonus" ?)
T adds 7 : from the spider's stat block, which is better than his own +4.
R adds 7 : from the spider's stat block, which is better than his own +6.
P adds 7 : from the spider's stat block, which is better than his own +1.
N adds 4 : from the stat block, which is better than his own +1.
L adds 9 : from his own character sheet. He can wrestle a black bear.
I think this option can't be right - because it would mean that ability score updates have no impact on skill checks. Plus, I find the Giant Centipede wrestler idea silly.
Option 3 : Best Proficiency Bonus when both have proficiency (from Druid 101 : Wild Shape Guide). I guess it also means that you use the creature's proficiency bonus when it has proficiency, and your character's proficiency bonus when you have proficiency.
T adds 7 : using the creature's ability modifier (+3) and proficiency bonus (+4)
R adds 7 : using the creature's ability modifier (+3), and the better proficiency bonus (+4 > +2)
P adds 7 : using the creature's ability modifier (+3), he can't use his own +6, and adds the creature's +4.
N adds 9 : using his own wisdom modifier (+5), and the creature's proficiency bonus (+4)
L adds 1 : His strength modifier switched to -3, and he adds his +4 proficiency bonus.
This one had some support from Mike Mearls on twitter - but it means you have to calculate the creature's proficiency bonus, which does not seem the intent.
Sorry for the wall of text - but I've been struggling with wild shape rules for more than a year. I really think that the current D&D Beyond implementation is correctly getting rules as written - but if it is not, I'd really like some clarification on those rules.
T and R roll with +7 because their +5 (spider's DEX +3, proficiency +2) is less than the spider's natural +7.
P rolls with +9. He has the spider's +3 DEX now, and still has his +6 proficiency.
N is a little trickier. The wild shape feature doesn't mention expertise and monster stats don't draw special attention to them. Either way, he keeps his WIS in wild shape, so it is either +7 or +9 depending on how DM feels about expertise (which could get crazier at higher levels).
L uses the centipede's -3 STR and his +4 proficiency, so rolls with +1.
Thanks !
I like this one ; if you stick with N=7, it looks consistent enough. I've supported this elsewhere - let's call it option 4. There seems to be more people convinced by options 1, 2 or 3, though...
That's the reason I think an "official" clarification through Sage Advice Compendium is needed : the fact that there are so many options, with many people supporting very different answers, does show that the current rules are at best confusing.
If option 4 is indeed RAI, there's an easy fix to make it RAW through Sage Advice Compendium :
In the meantime, I do think those deleted words have a purpose, and that's why I think option 1 (= the current D&D Beyond implementation) is the correct one. I may be wrong ! That's why I'm looking for an official (ideally WotC, but D&D Beyond would be fine) answer on this, as I feel we're reaching the limits of debate between enthusiasts.
From my reading of wildshape, you get to keep bonus numbers from your character sheet that have a P next to them, you get all of the bonuses in the stat block of the beast, and there is never a need to recalculate anything. If you have proficiency, either from your caster form or your beast form, the bonus is already correctly calculated and you just select the higher. If you don't have proficiency, you calculate as normal (your stat bonus for mentals and the creature's for physicals). I always take the simplest reading on wildshape: recalculating proficiency bonuses on the fly is not what you should be doing.
Guess you are using option 2, then ! Happy Giant Centipede wrestling!
It is a perfectly fine houserule ; and *maybe* it also matches the rules as written... even if I fail to read it that way :).
Hopefully, we'll have a definitive answer someday!
Here's why I think the way it works now (+5 for Druid T and +7 for Druid R) is actually RAW.
As a Druid, you calculate skills with your proficiency bonus (if at least one of either you or the shape have proficiency) and the attribute modifier of your current form- your squirrel form isn't going to keep that bonus to strength your half-orc Druid has because it's physically smaller and weaker, even if you have proficiency in athletics. Your bonus can actually decrease for certain skills going to some forms because your physical attributes might drop like a rock. You can have lower values for your physical skills in wild shape than on your Druid sheet, because those bonuses can drop.
People get confused on this because your mental attributes stay the same, meaning that your mental checks will, except for that word salad about using the creature's proficiency block, stay the same when in a wild shape. I'll get back to this later, but for now let's stick with the physical examples for now.
The way that I understand it, the basic rules for monsters (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/monsters#Skills) does imply that these higher bonuses reflect "heightened expertise", I don't think this implies the Rogue/Bard expertise class feature as much as an increased proficiency bonus for that particular skill. While this wording is a bit janky, the note that the bonus is usually double its proficiency bonus should stand to differentiate it from its class feature counterpart, which is always double your proficiency bonus.This is reflected in the bonus in the box. However, this heightened expertise is not indicated to inherit in the wording of the class feature, only the proficiencies you have.
However, as a Druid, you don't actually care about that bonus in the box. You're still your Druid, just adding your proficiency to a possibly different set of skills using a possibly different set of stats. Since you would gain stealth proficiency and a dexterity of 16, any Druid, regardless of its attributes, would have +5 if they're not proficient in Stealth if their proficiency bonus is +2, because that's how it should calculate. Then it would increase to +6 when the Druid's proficiency increases to +3, then +7 when the proficiency bonus increases to +4, because you're just adding your attribute modifier and your proficiency bonus.
That's perfectly fine until you have proficiency in stealth and the whole thing goes crazy, suddenly tossing your level 2 Druid a whopping +7 to stealth. How? It's that text that makes everything ambiguous. If you're proficient, you can basically inherit the bonus from the stat block using that clause about using the creature's score in the stat block in the class feature, so you ignore the fact that by all logic you should have +5. You get +7. You can't get above +7 doing this. Your proficiency bonus won't double from this, it just gets overridden if it would be decreased.
Mental attributes are dicier because they can actually get two sources of being better- this "heightened proficiency" or the creature being better at that attribute than you. So if you have WIS 10 and turn into an Eagle, and your proficiency bonus is +2, you would get +4 perception if (and only if) your Druid is already proficient in perception. Otherwise, you would get +2 from gaining the proficiency, but not any other bonuses, since your attributes don't change. That's because your modifier bonus and proficiency bonus calculation is overridden by the creature's skill block, just like the physical example above, with the same limitations. It won't increase to +5/+6 as your proficiency increase to +3/+4 because it's not using the formula and giving you that attribute bonus, it just gives you +4 because eagles are good at perception, not because your formula is tweaked in any way.
Think of it the same way as AC formulas work. You can get features that change the AC formula- adding different attributes, gaining flat bonuses, etc. These are part of the formula. However, if you have a feature that sets it to a value (say, for example, player Tortles' 17 AC, though that's a bit of a lie since shields can be added to that formula, but it's the best example here). You can't increase that value using the formula- armor and DEX don't apply (in this case because of a specific rule, but the illustration works similarly for Druid because the bonus for Druid is also because of a specific rule). This means that your Tortle might have killer AC compared to the rest of the party at level 1, but by level 20 being unable to benefit from stat increases and magical loot really drags down your AC. The same thing applies for this formula.
So, to summarize, the issue in the OP isn't an issue because it's RAW: you shouldn't be taking the higher value unless your Druid is proficient in stealth before assuming giant wolf spider form. You shouldn't worry about calculating your value with the giant wolf spider's implied expertise because you don't inherit it if it's not listed as a feature, (so don't double your proficiency bonus) just use the value provided if it is higher. The rest of my rant is solely directed at helping people understand some of the nuances of why you do this. I've had players who played as Druids who didn't understand this (and, to be fair, it took me quite a while to do it right), but RAW you're probably overthinking it. Just follow your formula (attribute bonus + proficiency bonus) and only take the higher from the creature if you have proficiency before entering wild shape.
Now, as a DM, if you want to let your druids take higher bonuses, even if not proficient, that's fine, more power to you. But RAW you have room to object to your Druid complaining that they're not as good as a spider at stealth. Spiders have their entire lives as spiders for experience, your Druid just borrowed their form and (if not proficient) doesn't even think about hiding properly half the time. You might get some of their innate skill, but not the full understanding of how using eight legs to move silently or hiding on cave ceilings works perfectly. Worst case scenario, if your Druid is insistent that they should get the bump and you really don't want them to have it, force them to role-play as a spider to get it. Win-win- your Druid learns the true power of nature, and you get to watch your player skitter around the table eating flies.
A wall of text to explain one sentence in the wildshape rule, and your first sentence has a huge assumption in it that takes the general rule for computing skill bonuses and applies over feature that already says how skill bonuses are to be determined for skills in which you are both proficient: use the bonus (it says "bonus," not "proficiency bonus") on the character sheet or the stat block that is higher. A lot of people see "bonus" referring to skills with proficiency and get it confused with "proficiency bonus." "Proficiency bonus" is a number that just goes up for leveling up, and is referred to using exactly those two words (except when using articles to refer to a previous sentence in the same paragraph). "Bonus" in the wildshape rules refers to the number you add to your d20 for a particular skill or ability check (proficiency bonus is never mentioned in the wildshape rules).
And then all of the sudden the level 3 barbarian has +10 or +11 to stealth (obviously, there IS a druid in the party if we're complaining about wildshape), and the rest of the party might be even higher. I really think that the designers want characters to succeed at stealth, and even for the most part the non-stealthy ones. Also, remember that a druid uses a resource to get into that shape, whereas a rogue has had +7 for free since level 1 that is only going to go up as they level.
This might be a good start to a point, but the problem is you didn't make a comparison between how AC works and how skills work. You get one AC calculation, as you said. If skill bonuses work the same way, then you'd get the druid's skill calculation (which is the one on your character sheet) or the animals (which is the bonus in the stat block). Adding the proficiency bonus from one form to the ability bonus of another form is like adding your unarmored defense to your regular armor AC. You are still cherrypicking, not taking the calculations as they are.
I understand and disagree with the rest of your post, but for the most part if you reread the sentence in wildshape and understand my first statement on "bonus" vs "proficiency bonus" then you'd obviously come to the same conclusion I did, RAW there is no need to re-calculate anything.
That "bonus" word from the Wild Shape rules is indeed confusing.
The Player Handbook uses it as a synonym for "proficiency bonus" in chapter 7 : Using Ability Scores. It also states that this (proficiency) bonus is incorporated in monster's stat blocks.
The Monster Manual is the only source that uses the "skill bonus" concept, in the Statistics > Ability Scores section.
Rules are consistent on the fact that ability checks are solved by adding the result of a d20, an ability modifier, and eventually the relevant proficiency bonus. The "skill bonus" is only a subtotal, displayed on the creature's stat block (and most character sheets...), for convenience.
However, it is only the third step of the relevant section of the Wild Shape rules :
Wether you have the same proficiency as the creature or not, does not change the fact that you first have to update some ability scores / modifiers (exactly as when you wear Gauntelets of Ogre Power) , and second gain the creature's proficiencies (as gaining proficiencies through class features). If your character sheet displays some "skill bonus" subtotals, you also have to update them.
Only then can you compare the "bonus" (which, indeed, is probably intended to be the skill bonus - even if RAW suggest the opposite...) between your (updated) character sheet, and the creature's stat block.
I do agree that you shouldn't mix Expertise from Bard/Rogue and heightened expertise from creatures, though. Doubling an already doubled proficiency bonus (Druid/rogue with expertise in perception shapechanging into an adult gold dragon) seems quite far from both RAW and RAI.
I just want to point out that you can only wildshape into creatures with a proficiency bonus of 2 (the minimum). So it doesn't make sense for there to be a rule dedicated to what to do if this minimum number is higher than yours. (Moon druids can eventually wildshape into creatures with +3 proficiency bonus, but by then the druid's bonus is +5).
So "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours," has to be referring to skill proficiency and skill bonus.
Only with articles or pronouns that make clear reference to "proficiency bonus" in previous sentences or phrases.
Exactly. Beasts are monsters, so we would certainly expect to use monster rules when dealing with them.
Ok, first, they're not steps. Second, they do not ask you to update anything. They tell you to replace statistics with some exceptions. When you replace your statistics, you no longer have anything from your character sheet except for whatever the text of wildshape says you get to bring along. What are those things? Your skill and saving throw proficiencies (not your proficiency bonus) and your mental stats. So RAW you do not keep your proficiency bonus. What does "if the creature has the same proficiency as you" mean? it means that if the proficiencies that we brought overlap with the ones that we gained, then the next part happens. What does the next part say? Does it ask us to reverse engineer the proficiency bonus of the monster, and figure out how to re-calculate our skills? No, it tells us to use the bonus (to the skill or saving throw) that is larger.
It is intended to be that way because that is how it is written.
Obviously we disagree ; there may be some musinderstanding though, as I do not think you have to reverse engineer the creature's proficiency bonus.
Let's set that third part aside for now, and focus on situations where proficiencies do not overlap. I'd be really interested in knowing how you'd handle these new examples :
A has a -1 Strength modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, proficiency in Athletics ; he wild shapes into a Brown Bear, and rolls for a Strength(Athletics) ability check.
B has a -1 Strength modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, proficiency in Athletics ; he attunes to Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and rolls for a Strength(Athletics) ability check.
C has a +4 Wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, no proficiency in Perception ; he wild shapes into a Frog, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check.
D has a +4 Wisdom modifier, a +2 proficiency bonus, no proficiency in Perception ; he choses "Perception" when using his Channel Divinity : Knowledge of the Ages class feature, and rolls for a Wisdom(Perception) ability check.
I'd let them all use a skill bonus of +6, but I guess you'd rule differently ?
Sounds right to me.