I keep seeing posts commenting on the value of taking Shillelagh as a spell.
Can someone explain why? I really don't get it. I'm currently a 6th level druid, and have never seen the need for it a single time. Perhaps I'm not playing my druid as efficiently as I should be and I'm not understanding something. I don't see it scaling well compared to other options.
Is it because I'm a Moon Circle druid and wildshaped more often? I've not played a Land Circle druid so perhaps that's why?
If you're a Moon Druid, there's little point to Shillelagh other than as a backup when you're out of wildshapes and spells. Thorn Whip is probably more generally useful (and by level 5, does as much damage).
The value is, basically, doing d8+WIS damage without any special investment into melee abilities. It's still just a cantrip.
Let me put it this way. If you start at 1st level, shillelagh is your friend. If you start at 3rd level, you probably won't need it very often. If you start at 5th level, stay the hell away from it.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Let me put it this way. If you start at 1st level, shillelagh is your friend. If you start at 3rd level, you probably won't need it very often. If you start at 5th level, stay the hell away from it.
You can get more mileage out of it with Polearm Master, especially if you're Variant Human and get it from level 1; but even if you get it at level 4, that's still two attacks per round, which'll compete well with other cantrips until level 11+. If you really want to crank up the damage, you can take 1 level in Fighter for Dueling Fighting Style.
If you want to burn a feat, you can also pick up Booming Blade and/or Green Flame Blade with Magic Initiate. They scale better than Polearm Master after level 11+.
It's a LONG time to wait for 11th level for Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade to catch up.
I'll assume it's a Land Druid, as a Moon Druid isn't going to be as concerned with maxing out shillelagh, except as a solid backup weapon when WildShape runs out of its 2 charges... or the combat isn't worth using it. That said it's probably not worth spending your Feats to make your weapon attacks better on a Moon Druid.
Ultimately you can always use both.
A Druid get's shillelagh at 1st level and this means having a low Strength score doesn't kneecap her and reduces the need to be MAD (Many Attribute Dependent) as To Hit and Damage for club and quarterstaff are based off of Wisdom at the cost of a Bonus Action. Plus it's 1 minute not Concentration, so it doesn't interfere with other spells.
If the Druid picks up Polearm Master at 4th level (1st with Human varient) Suddenly the "Wizard" type Druid which is usually the "hang back" is wielding a quarterstaff, gets an Attack of Opportunity when the enemy gets within 5', then gets 2 attacks a turn. This really makes her *not* the soft target she was before.
If you want to take Magic Initiate (and that will require Int or Cha 13), you can cast Booming Blade. Yes the damage might scale higher. Remember you make a Melee attack and keeping shillelagh, means that melee attack is done with Wisdom not Strength as the mod, still better to keep shillelagh. Magic Initiate could mean you're less likely to use those particular attack spells, but honestly Booming Blade only gets really good damage if the enemy wants to move away and Green Flame only is good to hit multiple targets. Neither of these are the same situation Polearm Master is good at, nor negate the AoO.
The cantrips don't catch up at level 11 but at 5th level. At fifth level Shillelagh with Booming Blade makes 2d8+Wisdom modifier damage without the target moving. Polearm master makes 1d8+Wisdom Modifier+1d4+Wisdom Modifier. Assuming you have +4 Wisdom modifier, that's 13 average damage on BB and 15 for PM. Only 2 less. BB gives more damage when the target moves, GFB gives you an attack against multiple targets and PM gets two attack rolls.
Level 1-4, PM is better, 5-11 it's about the same and 11+ the cantrips win.
Primal Savagery (XGE) is my favorite melee cantrip. It does 1d10 (acid) at level one and it scales up as you gain levels. When you reach level 20 you're still only going to know four cantrips - do you really want Shillelagh to be one of them? I like the idea of it, but I feel like it was a real oversight not to have it scale up like other cantrips.
Primal Savagery (XGE) is my favorite melee cantrip. It does 1d10 (acid) at level one and it scales up as you gain levels. When you reach level 20 you're still only going to know four cantrips - do you really want Shillelagh to be one of them? I like the idea of it, but I feel like it was a real oversight not to have it scale up like other cantrips.
I was considering Shillelagh, magic initiate with booming blade and greenflame blade on a Spores Druid to do a fronliner melee druid, but after the revisions to Spores I kinda lost interest.
I keep seeing posts commenting on the value of taking Shillelagh as a spell.
Can someone explain why? I really don't get it. I'm currently a 6th level druid, and have never seen the need for it a single time. Perhaps I'm not playing my druid as efficiently as I should be and I'm not understanding something. I don't see it scaling well compared to other options.
Is it because I'm a Moon Circle druid and wildshaped more often? I've not played a Land Circle druid so perhaps that's why?
I always saw shillelagh as great value on any class but druid!
Wanna make a Monk relying on Wisdom more than Dex? Grab shillelagh. Wanna make a melee cleric? Grab Shillelagh. Wanna make a Tomelock that can melee? Grab Shillelagh. Wanna make a weird Ranger focused on Wisdom? Grab Shillelagh (I would be a bit perturbed by this build, but why not). Want to make a wise Fighter that relies on instinct? Grab Shillelagh, and focus on Wisdom (even if, once again, it's weird)
It becomes better with GFB / BB. If you can get it as elf or half-elf cantrip, or from Magic Initiate, you have a really decent or even powerful melee attack. Especially BB, since it doesn't require good CHA / INT.
The point of Shillelagh is to be SAD instead of MAD, so that you can benefit from a maxed out stat.
I was considering Shillelagh, magic initiate with booming blade and greenflame blade on a Spores Druid to do a fronliner melee druid, but after the revisions to Spores I kinda lost interest.
What made you change your mind? The tempHP got better, the halo got nerfed but it was op, zombie got buffed, and otherwise it's quite the same
What made you change your mind? The tempHP got better, the halo got nerfed but it was op, zombie got buffed, and otherwise it's quite the same
I was originally hoping to convert my existing moon druid over to a spores druid through some epic quest or whatnot (never got around to talking to the DM about it). I felt our party could have benefited quite a bit from the kinda damage that the UA spores druid could have put out and the extra CC from the zombies. However, when they tweaked the class for the official release it no longer seemed worth the hassle of a weird quest or 'training'. I don't think there's going to be a big difference in damage output from Moon and Spores (I also got third level spells and Conjure Animals and realized even MORE pets would just be frustrating lol.
shillelagh is a decent spell for a Moon Druid for that last ditch spell if your out of wild shape uses, but if you wanted it buffed with Booming Blade I wouldn't ever add Green-Flame Blade as it uses one of the druids dump stats for its mod damage. I would say if you magic initiate to get Booming Blade I would take Mage Hand or Minor Illusion and Find Familiar to maximise use. None of those have an Int mod to them and you have a fair amount of out of combat use with them. Which is good for rounding out a character.
Booming Blade (or GFB) can be aquired by being high-elf or half-elf (high), but since Find Familiar is such a nice spell, taking magic Initiate is a solid choice as well.
Primal Savagery (XGE) is my favorite melee cantrip. It does 1d10 (acid) at level one and it scales up as you gain levels. When you reach level 20 you're still only going to know four cantrips - do you really want Shillelagh to be one of them? I like the idea of it, but I feel like it was a real oversight not to have it scale up like other cantrips.
Primal Savagery for the win! Love it, especially the RP I am putting into my attacks. My Druid is Moon and will be shifting a lot into a Dire Wolf, so it makes my RP easy and fun :)
I cant not exactly tell it for Druids, but my Arcana Domain Cleric (Human Variant) has Druid Spells as his Mage Initiate spells.
On his Wizard cantrips from the Domain Features, he has Booming Blade.
Shillelagh with Booming Blade is just great.
Also, as one already stated out, you dont have to also max out STR or DEX if you want to fight.
There are many builds that dont need STR at all, and for those builds even DEX is only needed to more than 14, which can be achieved on point buy so easily.
Builds with Shillelagh are so SAD, it makes me happy :D
@Aratinga / @Linkstatic: Fewer dice arent so great for a damage roll. For example on Level 5: 2d10 = 2-20 HP for your primal savagery, while Shillelagh with Booming Blade on fifth level makes 1d8+4+1d8 = 6-20 HP (or 7-28 HP if the target moves, which is not only additional damage but also a good battlefield control). So THIS <- NOT. Also: Then why not just take a spell for range before Primal Savagery?!
Shillelagh is also good because it gives you a melee attack that ignores resistance (or immunity) to nonmagical damage. At 1st level, your wildshape attacks are useless against enemies with those resistances, and your spell slots are really limited.
Shillelagh on a quarterstaff two-handed gets you 1d8 + WIS magical damage (8 or 9 damage on average, depending on your WIS), which is arguably better than primal savagery (1d10 plus nothing) until 5th level.
Depends upon the circle, too. As a Spores druid, I can do 1d8 + WIS with Shillelagh + 1d6 poison with Symbiotic Entity + Booming Blade with Magic Initiate. That's a lot of punch for a druid with no concentration required and only cantrips and class abilities used.
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I keep seeing posts commenting on the value of taking Shillelagh as a spell.
Can someone explain why? I really don't get it. I'm currently a 6th level druid, and have never seen the need for it a single time. Perhaps I'm not playing my druid as efficiently as I should be and I'm not understanding something. I don't see it scaling well compared to other options.
Is it because I'm a Moon Circle druid and wildshaped more often? I've not played a Land Circle druid so perhaps that's why?
If you're a Moon Druid, there's little point to Shillelagh other than as a backup when you're out of wildshapes and spells. Thorn Whip is probably more generally useful (and by level 5, does as much damage).
The value is, basically, doing d8+WIS damage without any special investment into melee abilities. It's still just a cantrip.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Let me put it this way. If you start at 1st level, shillelagh is your friend. If you start at 3rd level, you probably won't need it very often. If you start at 5th level, stay the hell away from it.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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If you want to burn a feat, you can also pick up Booming Blade and/or Green Flame Blade with Magic Initiate. They scale better than Polearm Master after level 11+.
I agree with InquisitiveCoder,
It's a LONG time to wait for 11th level for Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade to catch up.
I'll assume it's a Land Druid, as a Moon Druid isn't going to be as concerned with maxing out shillelagh, except as a solid backup weapon when WildShape runs out of its 2 charges... or the combat isn't worth using it. That said it's probably not worth spending your Feats to make your weapon attacks better on a Moon Druid.
Ultimately you can always use both.
A Druid get's shillelagh at 1st level and this means having a low Strength score doesn't kneecap her and reduces the need to be MAD (Many Attribute Dependent) as To Hit and Damage for club and quarterstaff are based off of Wisdom at the cost of a Bonus Action. Plus it's 1 minute not Concentration, so it doesn't interfere with other spells.
If the Druid picks up Polearm Master at 4th level (1st with Human varient) Suddenly the "Wizard" type Druid which is usually the "hang back" is wielding a quarterstaff, gets an Attack of Opportunity when the enemy gets within 5', then gets 2 attacks a turn. This really makes her *not* the soft target she was before.
If you want to take Magic Initiate (and that will require Int or Cha 13), you can cast Booming Blade. Yes the damage might scale higher. Remember you make a Melee attack and keeping shillelagh, means that melee attack is done with Wisdom not Strength as the mod, still better to keep shillelagh.
Magic Initiate could mean you're less likely to use those particular attack spells, but honestly Booming Blade only gets really good damage if the enemy wants to move away and Green Flame only is good to hit multiple targets. Neither of these are the same situation Polearm Master is good at, nor negate the AoO.
The cantrips don't catch up at level 11 but at 5th level. At fifth level Shillelagh with Booming Blade makes 2d8+Wisdom modifier damage without the target moving. Polearm master makes 1d8+Wisdom Modifier+1d4+Wisdom Modifier. Assuming you have +4 Wisdom modifier, that's 13 average damage on BB and 15 for PM. Only 2 less. BB gives more damage when the target moves, GFB gives you an attack against multiple targets and PM gets two attack rolls.
Level 1-4, PM is better, 5-11 it's about the same and 11+ the cantrips win.
Oh, and Magic Initiate has no prerequisites.
Primal Savagery (XGE) is my favorite melee cantrip. It does 1d10 (acid) at level one and it scales up as you gain levels. When you reach level 20 you're still only going to know four cantrips - do you really want Shillelagh to be one of them? I like the idea of it, but I feel like it was a real oversight not to have it scale up like other cantrips.
Point of contention, you make a melee spell attack. So it’s done with your spellcasting modifier anyways, you don’t need shillelagh.
Yeah nevermind, don’t know why I though it worked that way. It is in fact a melee weapon attack.
This
Item's - Sashelas' Spear, Thunder Beads, Diadem of the Owl, Bag of Stasis
Race - Fey-Touched
Subclass - Circle of Vitality
Monsters - Blood Bear
Spell - Arcbolt
I was considering Shillelagh, magic initiate with booming blade and greenflame blade on a Spores Druid to do a fronliner melee druid, but after the revisions to Spores I kinda lost interest.
I always saw shillelagh as great value on any class but druid!
Wanna make a Monk relying on Wisdom more than Dex? Grab shillelagh. Wanna make a melee cleric? Grab Shillelagh. Wanna make a Tomelock that can melee? Grab Shillelagh. Wanna make a weird Ranger focused on Wisdom? Grab Shillelagh (I would be a bit perturbed by this build, but why not). Want to make a wise Fighter that relies on instinct? Grab Shillelagh, and focus on Wisdom (even if, once again, it's weird)
It becomes better with GFB / BB. If you can get it as elf or half-elf cantrip, or from Magic Initiate, you have a really decent or even powerful melee attack. Especially BB, since it doesn't require good CHA / INT.
The point of Shillelagh is to be SAD instead of MAD, so that you can benefit from a maxed out stat.
What made you change your mind? The tempHP got better, the halo got nerfed but it was op, zombie got buffed, and otherwise it's quite the same
My homebrew feat for thrown weapons, feat to help DMs extend Sorcerer's spells known list, and my homebrew combo monk subclass (diablo inspired)!
I was originally hoping to convert my existing moon druid over to a spores druid through some epic quest or whatnot (never got around to talking to the DM about it). I felt our party could have benefited quite a bit from the kinda damage that the UA spores druid could have put out and the extra CC from the zombies. However, when they tweaked the class for the official release it no longer seemed worth the hassle of a weird quest or 'training'. I don't think there's going to be a big difference in damage output from Moon and Spores (I also got third level spells and Conjure Animals and realized even MORE pets would just be frustrating lol.
shillelagh is a decent spell for a Moon Druid for that last ditch spell if your out of wild shape uses, but if you wanted it buffed with Booming Blade I wouldn't ever add Green-Flame Blade as it uses one of the druids dump stats for its mod damage. I would say if you magic initiate to get Booming Blade I would take Mage Hand or Minor Illusion and Find Familiar to maximise use. None of those have an Int mod to them and you have a fair amount of out of combat use with them. Which is good for rounding out a character.
Booming Blade (or GFB) can be aquired by being high-elf or half-elf (high), but since Find Familiar is such a nice spell, taking magic Initiate is a solid choice as well.
My homebrew feat for thrown weapons, feat to help DMs extend Sorcerer's spells known list, and my homebrew combo monk subclass (diablo inspired)!
Primal Savagery for the win! Love it, especially the RP I am putting into my attacks. My Druid is Moon and will be shifting a lot into a Dire Wolf, so it makes my RP easy and fun :)
Also, love the damage!
I cant not exactly tell it for Druids, but my Arcana Domain Cleric (Human Variant) has Druid Spells as his Mage Initiate spells.
On his Wizard cantrips from the Domain Features, he has Booming Blade.
Shillelagh with Booming Blade is just great.
Also, as one already stated out, you dont have to also max out STR or DEX if you want to fight.
There are many builds that dont need STR at all, and for those builds even DEX is only needed to more than 14, which can be achieved on point buy so easily.
Builds with Shillelagh are so SAD, it makes me happy :D
@Aratinga / @Linkstatic: Fewer dice arent so great for a damage roll. For example on Level 5: 2d10 = 2-20 HP for your primal savagery, while Shillelagh with Booming Blade on fifth level makes 1d8+4+1d8 = 6-20 HP (or 7-28 HP if the target moves, which is not only additional damage but also a good battlefield control). So THIS <- NOT.
Also: Then why not just take a spell for range before Primal Savagery?!
Shillelagh is also good because it gives you a melee attack that ignores resistance (or immunity) to nonmagical damage. At 1st level, your wildshape attacks are useless against enemies with those resistances, and your spell slots are really limited.
Shillelagh on a quarterstaff two-handed gets you 1d8 + WIS magical damage (8 or 9 damage on average, depending on your WIS), which is arguably better than primal savagery (1d10 plus nothing) until 5th level.
Depends upon the circle, too. As a Spores druid, I can do 1d8 + WIS with Shillelagh + 1d6 poison with Symbiotic Entity + Booming Blade with Magic Initiate. That's a lot of punch for a druid with no concentration required and only cantrips and class abilities used.