One way I worked around the Str/Con issue is to focus on Dex, and then be an EK that uses a shield. Mixed with the spell "Protection from Good and Evil" and later "Blur" meant it was neigh-impossible to be hit. Nabbed the Shield Master feat and boom, Evasion from evocation spells.
The Dex/Shield weilding EK is hard, because you need two feats to be optimal functional.
Shield Master gets you the bonus action Shove attack, and defense against AoE spells, but without Warcaster you can't cast Shield while holding a weapon and a shield. No hands for the somotic component.
Sadly my favorite class needs to be AltHuman to you can get Shield Master at 1, and Warcaster at 4.
You could do Warcaster at 4, and Shield Master at 6, because Fighters get more Feats.
It is an interesting style. Just having shield as a spell when you already have heavy armor makes it almost worth it by itself. If you grab utility cantrips you can do interesting things, but being a 1/3 caster means you are going to always be very very limited in your options. Also the fact that your spells are long rest vs your fighter abilities recovering on short rests can be odd. That 1 open wizard spell can really define you though. Find familiar and you have a handy friend, tasha's laughter and you have a powerful Crowd Control ability.Expeditious retreat and you can run down the fastest badguys.
The idea of melee caster feels much better as a blade lock or blade singer wizard. Eldritch knight feels like a fighter with the magic initiate feat.
It really would be better served as a class on its own that is basically an arcane 1/2 caster. Limited to 2 melee attacks per action, but getting some uniquely flavored and powerful abilities along the way.
Thain, I see where you are coming from but the Eldritch Knight is a totally different beast. She's not a full caster, it is not: You get 1st level spells at 3rd level and 2nd level at 7th...
But it IS a full Fighter, with all the bonuses of Fighter: Fighting Style, 2nd Wind, Action Surge, more ASI then anyone else, Indomitable at 9th, and Extra Attack (2) at 11th. This is a fighter who dabbles in magic.
A cool Bonus of the Eldtrich Knight is the ability to use Scrolls from the Wizard list. So you can augment a certain amount of spell ability in exchange for gold. (Find Familiar being one of them and cheap)
If you have a high strength and use armor, or are high dex and use gold to buy Gauntlets of Orge Str on an EK, she can easily have a Str 18. She engages you in melee, bonus action to Shove you to the ground (her Athletics vs your Athletics/Acrobatics). If she wins, you're now on the ground and she gets her 1-2 attacks with Advantage, plus the Rogue is her bestest friend. That Bladesinger is going to have trouble against the strong AC of the EK, plus she can't escape the shoves, and if she tries an AoE the Shield Mastery will probably render the spell zero damage.
She'll be rocking a high teens low 20s AC, and can boost it by +5 with a Shield spell to say "nooooope" to a hit.
The Blade Singer is a mage that dabbles in fighting. She gets (in my opinion some pretty OP) abilities for fighting. Her abilities "only" work when holding a 1 handed weapon with no shield (I think it will works if you Duel Wield), but she gets bonus speed, Adv on Acrobatics (defensive against Grapple/Shove), and +Int Bonus (3-5!?) to AC, Con Saves for concentration. She gets this twice per short rest, so basically infinite unless you're in a meat-grinder. I'm willing to bet her DPS nor HP will ever be close to what an EK's can be.
the Bladesinger on the other hand is going to make anyone who says "Oh, they left her open, I'm going to go Geek the Mage". Unless that person is a 1st Rank fighter, that fight won't go how that person hoped.
That said I'm glad both exist, and especially in a small group the BladeSinger can be good as in a super small party no one can afford to be "geek the mage".
You know i almost wouldn't take Shield as an EK. I'd probably go Hellish Rebuke as my reaction use spell just to keep that bit of damage dealing going even when I'm getting hit. Just my observation. I feel like an EK should be doing damage as often as possible more so than trying to survive a stray assault like a wizard or sorc. Now I'm kind of curious as to what a good EK spell list would look like.
Hellish Rebuke is a Warlock spell, so an EK can't get it. If you DO figure out a way to finagle it...
Then that makes attacking the Fighter one heck of a "Devil's Deal". Either you will *barely* hit and the Fighter can negate the attack (+5 AC) OR you hit hard and the Fighter will deal damage to you in return!
Both EK and Bladesinger have fantastic tools to pump AC, particularly EK with Plate, Shield, Defensive style, and Shield spell (26 AC, Dex EKs are just 1 behind at 25 which is the same as a Tarrasque). Both can also get some great use out of the SCAG cantrips (Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade), but the EK's best spells come from Abjuration and other defense oriented things like Absorb Elements. Multiclass into cleric or grab Magic Initiate to grab Shield of Faith for even more shenanigans. Outside of the Evocation or Abjuration restrictions, spells like Haste, Blur, or Mirror Images are huge tools to take advantage of.
There's also the EK 8/Bladesinger 2/AT 10 trifecta. AC of an Abrams, 5d6 Sneak Attack, consistent blade booms, tons of Cantrips and lower level spells for Shield, Absorb Elements, and general utility.
I've been playing a high elf EK for the last 6 months. Specializes in two weapon fighting (scimitars) but is also great with a longbow thanks to high Dex. I had to juggle the fact that I normally had two hands occupied, but the build pulled ahead once I got War Caster at 4th level and then at 6th level maxed myself up to a 20 Dex.
EK fighters are great for defenses, as people have mentioned.
Blade Ward, Shield, Protection from Good/Evil, and Absorb Elements are great for defense.
Sword Burst, Lightening Lure, and I nearly randomly picked up Shocking Grasp thanks to my bonus high elf cantrip.
Anyway, its a blast to play. Its not the most optimized build, but I can avoid a lot of damage and the time I got my extra attack, I was on par with any other warrior in terms of damage dealing.
I started playing a fighter in a tabletop session that I was super stoked to play, unfortunately it fell apart rather quickly. He was a Human (Variant) that I intended to play fighter until 5th level (I needed the ASI to bump my intelligence by 1 point as he started with a 12). He was a great weapon fighter who used Polearms (A Glaive in game, but he wasn't tied to that particular weapon) and the intent was that he would multiclass into Wizard as an exploration of the Runes that he began to have projected into his mind (that he would inscribe onto his armor, weapons, etc). As a Wizard he would become an Abjuration specialist and would pick up some utility spells, but I liked the synergy with the Abujuration Specialists Arcane Ward, so he could cast Shield and then also gain a Ward to protect him from Damage. The intent was that he would basically use his spell slots for Abjuration spells, and use Warcaster to combo greenflame blade with weapon attacks.
Anyways, maybe not the most optimized build, but I liked the theme of having this Dragon Hunter from the North who was a sailor (Viking Esque) and would inscribe these runes into his weapons and armor that would basically act as his spell book of sorts.
Correctly if I'm wrong but I don't believe someone wielding a 2 handed weapon needs Warcaster, because a 2 handed weapon requires 2 hands to use, but you can just hold it in one hand while you cast a spell.
Don't get me wrong the Adv on Concentration Checks is amazing to have for a fighter/caster, but the main part of the somatic components is to allow weapon & shield or duel wielding.
Edit to my previous post: I meant to say War Magic, not War Caster.
I believe you are correct Full Metal Bunny, I don't believe I ever intended to take War Caster as a feat as concentration spells were not going to be my forte.
Does EK not show up under character creation for anyone else on D&D Beyond? I'm not able to make any martial type besides champion ATM....
For the beta, only the rules and options provided in the D&D 5th edition SRD , D&D 5th edition Basic Rules, Elemental Evil Companion are available in Beyond. Once the full platform launches later this summer, the core rule books and others will be available for purchase, and the content within will be available for those that purchase, or have access through a DM's subscription.
I've played an Dwarf Eldritch Knight through Level 5 (all fighter/Eldritch knight). The 1st couple levels were hard (no spells, rogues did a lot more damage due to sneak attack, and I didn't choose a ranged weapon during character build (on purpose)), I was slow and couldn't sneak to save my life. Dark vision was really useful. Starting at Level 3 (when you get spells) it was really fun. I used the Firebolt and True Strike cantrips a lot and the Witch Bolt spell (1st level) as much as I had spell slots for. Using Action Surge for a spell was pretty useful a couple of times when I needed another few points of damage to drop a monster (firebolt). You really start to get into the fighting business at level 5 when you get two attacks per round and opportunity attacks lets you get off a spell in the same turn. Weapon bond is pretty cool too, you can leave your bonded weapon any where (assuming it's not taken off the prime material plane) and have it in hand if you need it. Walking around without being obviously armed is a very nice ability. My DM let me bond with my shield, saying it was within the spirit of the rules, as my 2nd weapon. Since I had chosen the Protection fighting style this made me very happy. All in all, it was sort of like being the dwarf equivalent of Iron Man.
I also play a Dwarf Eldritch Knight with Protection fighting style. My DM also allowed bonding to my shield. I agree it was a little slow at first, but after level 7, it is fantastic (War Magic is amazing). At level 9 I opted to multiclass to wizard, though (8/2 right now)
- Armor class: As you’ve noticed, EKs are the best defensive Fighters out there. I have mentioned the use of two-handed weapons, but they really shine with a shield in hand. Here’s how AC can work for a STR build (DEX builds should be one point behind with max DEX): Full plate + shield: 20 Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style: 21 Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style + Shield (spell): 26 Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style + Shield (spell) + Haste or Shield of Faith (obtained through Magic Initiate): 28 Very few builds have this much AC without magic items.
If you have Blur up instead of Shield of Faith, it makes them attack you with disadvantage. If you have Mirror Image, they have to gamble to hit you and not one of your three copies. Both spells are available at level 8, or maybe even earlier if you multiclass Sorc/Wizard.
- Damage: War Magic with SCAG cantrips (Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade) is better than attacking from levels 7-10, and in some situations even further down the road. The main question is: how many bonus action uses you have other than Second Wind? If you plan on keeping it busy, then go for another attack at level 11. If not, then stick with War Magic. In some fights you will prefer to concentrate on damaging spells rather than defensive ones. The best of those will be the ones that use your bonus action to deal damage (such as Melf’s Minute Meteors and Storm Sphere). If your targets have monstrous AC like you, forget attacking and go for save cantrips (Frostbite, Acid Splash, etc.) or save spells (Shatter, Fireball, etc.).
- Actions: A good player must always know what to do with its actions. Since you're a fighter, most of your actions will be spent attacking, but cantrips and spells will also be there for you when you need them. As for your bonus action, you've got Second Wind and Weapon Bond (situational), and later on War Magic. If possible, find other uses like Misty Step, Shield of Faith and Quickened Spell. For your reaction, you've got Shield and Absorb Elements, which should be plenty, so don't bother hunting down others.
- Diversification: As you might have noticed, 90% of your saves target DEX, and you need to add diversity to that. Shatter is a good start, since it targets CON. Frostbite too. When possible, also grab one that requires a WIS save (good example below). That way, you won’t be extremely pigeonholed. The same goes for energy types, too.
- Hold Person + Eldritch Strike + Action Surge (or The EK Annihilation): On the first round, attack a humanoid in any fashion you like. On the second one, cast Hold Person (they will save with disadvantage). On that same round, Action Surge to perform your regular attack routine, except this time with advantage… and critting on every hit. Who needs a Champion?
- Teamwork: Your job is very simple, kill all enemies without getting killed, and if possible protect your comrades. Really, that’s it. Use stuff like Booming Blade and Lightning Lure to make them focus on you if needed. EKs enjoy being buffed. A lot. Some of the things they enjoy are Bless, Warding Bond (if the cleric is not taking damage too), Haste, Greater Invisibility and of course, Bardic Inspiration. It’s also important to note that they require less healing than the average combatant, simply because they take less damage. For this same reason, healing spells are more valuable on them than say, a Ranger or a Paladin. Whenever possible, show love to your EK neighbor, and they shall reward you.
Very few builds have this much AC without magic items.
Without multiclassing anyway. Paladin + Sorcerer arguably does it better.
With Paladin level 6, you get Shield of Faith, Cure Wounds, Compelled Duel, Lay on Hands, immunity to Disease, Aura of Protection (+CHA to all saves), and for kicks you get Divine Smite.
With Sorcerer you get more spell slots faster (and spell recovery) than Eldritch Knight. Although, you could do the same thing with EK + Wizard. But Sorcerer also gives more hit points with Draconic Resilience and Metamagic. And being CHA based means you can choose Half-Elf for +2 CHA, +1 STR, +1 CON, Adv on Saves vs Charm, Immune to Sleep, and Darkvision.
Finally they're also insane at nova damage. You're not a glass cannon here, you're a cast iron cannon. It feels so cheesy that macaroni would be jealous.
One way I worked around the Str/Con issue is to focus on Dex, and then be an EK that uses a shield. Mixed with the spell "Protection from Good and Evil" and later "Blur" meant it was neigh-impossible to be hit. Nabbed the Shield Master feat and boom, Evasion from evocation spells.
The Dex/Shield weilding EK is hard, because you need two feats to be optimal functional.
Shield Master gets you the bonus action Shove attack, and defense against AoE spells, but without Warcaster you can't cast Shield while holding a weapon and a shield. No hands for the somotic component.
Sadly my favorite class needs to be AltHuman to you can get Shield Master at 1, and Warcaster at 4.
You could do Warcaster at 4, and Shield Master at 6, because Fighters get more Feats.
It is an interesting style. Just having shield as a spell when you already have heavy armor makes it almost worth it by itself. If you grab utility cantrips you can do interesting things, but being a 1/3 caster means you are going to always be very very limited in your options. Also the fact that your spells are long rest vs your fighter abilities recovering on short rests can be odd. That 1 open wizard spell can really define you though. Find familiar and you have a handy friend, tasha's laughter and you have a powerful Crowd Control ability.Expeditious retreat and you can run down the fastest badguys.
The idea of melee caster feels much better as a blade lock or blade singer wizard. Eldritch knight feels like a fighter with the magic initiate feat.
It really would be better served as a class on its own that is basically an arcane 1/2 caster. Limited to 2 melee attacks per action, but getting some uniquely flavored and powerful abilities along the way.
Thain, I see where you are coming from but the Eldritch Knight is a totally different beast. She's not a full caster, it is not: You get 1st level spells at 3rd level and 2nd level at 7th...
But it IS a full Fighter, with all the bonuses of Fighter: Fighting Style, 2nd Wind, Action Surge, more ASI then anyone else, Indomitable at 9th, and Extra Attack (2) at 11th. This is a fighter who dabbles in magic.
A cool Bonus of the Eldtrich Knight is the ability to use Scrolls from the Wizard list. So you can augment a certain amount of spell ability in exchange for gold. (Find Familiar being one of them and cheap)
If you have a high strength and use armor, or are high dex and use gold to buy Gauntlets of Orge Str on an EK, she can easily have a Str 18. She engages you in melee, bonus action to Shove you to the ground (her Athletics vs your Athletics/Acrobatics). If she wins, you're now on the ground and she gets her 1-2 attacks with Advantage, plus the Rogue is her bestest friend. That Bladesinger is going to have trouble against the strong AC of the EK, plus she can't escape the shoves, and if she tries an AoE the Shield Mastery will probably render the spell zero damage.
She'll be rocking a high teens low 20s AC, and can boost it by +5 with a Shield spell to say "nooooope" to a hit.
The Blade Singer is a mage that dabbles in fighting. She gets (in my opinion some pretty OP) abilities for fighting. Her abilities "only" work when holding a 1 handed weapon with no shield (I think it will works if you Duel Wield), but she gets bonus speed, Adv on Acrobatics (defensive against Grapple/Shove), and +Int Bonus (3-5!?) to AC, Con Saves for concentration. She gets this twice per short rest, so basically infinite unless you're in a meat-grinder. I'm willing to bet her DPS nor HP will ever be close to what an EK's can be.
the Bladesinger on the other hand is going to make anyone who says "Oh, they left her open, I'm going to go Geek the Mage". Unless that person is a 1st Rank fighter, that fight won't go how that person hoped.
That said I'm glad both exist, and especially in a small group the BladeSinger can be good as in a super small party no one can afford to be "geek the mage".
You know i almost wouldn't take Shield as an EK. I'd probably go Hellish Rebuke as my reaction use spell just to keep that bit of damage dealing going even when I'm getting hit. Just my observation. I feel like an EK should be doing damage as often as possible more so than trying to survive a stray assault like a wizard or sorc. Now I'm kind of curious as to what a good EK spell list would look like.
Hellish Rebuke is a Warlock spell, so an EK can't get it. If you DO figure out a way to finagle it...
Then that makes attacking the Fighter one heck of a "Devil's Deal". Either you will *barely* hit and the Fighter can negate the attack (+5 AC) OR you hit hard and the Fighter will deal damage to you in return!
Both EK and Bladesinger have fantastic tools to pump AC, particularly EK with Plate, Shield, Defensive style, and Shield spell (26 AC, Dex EKs are just 1 behind at 25 which is the same as a Tarrasque). Both can also get some great use out of the SCAG cantrips (Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade), but the EK's best spells come from Abjuration and other defense oriented things like Absorb Elements. Multiclass into cleric or grab Magic Initiate to grab Shield of Faith for even more shenanigans. Outside of the Evocation or Abjuration restrictions, spells like Haste, Blur, or Mirror Images are huge tools to take advantage of.
There's also the EK 8/Bladesinger 2/AT 10 trifecta. AC of an Abrams, 5d6 Sneak Attack, consistent blade booms, tons of Cantrips and lower level spells for Shield, Absorb Elements, and general utility.
Hey guys me and a player have been having this argument about how war magic works
he says if he uses war magic it would work out like this WAR MAGIC= CANTRIP, SLASH, SLASH because he can roll to attack twice on his action round.
However, I believe it is like this WAR MAGIC = CANTRIP, SLASH because it states A weapon attack as in singular.
Can anybody help?
War Magic is very specific:
Action: Cantrip
Bonus Action: 1 Weapon Attack
----
Extra Attack: only applies to the Action Attack
I've been playing a high elf EK for the last 6 months. Specializes in two weapon fighting (scimitars) but is also great with a longbow thanks to high Dex. I had to juggle the fact that I normally had two hands occupied, but the build pulled ahead once I got War Caster at 4th level and then at 6th level maxed myself up to a 20 Dex.
EK fighters are great for defenses, as people have mentioned.
Blade Ward, Shield, Protection from Good/Evil, and Absorb Elements are great for defense.
Sword Burst, Lightening Lure, and I nearly randomly picked up Shocking Grasp thanks to my bonus high elf cantrip.
Anyway, its a blast to play. Its not the most optimized build, but I can avoid a lot of damage and the time I got my extra attack, I was on par with any other warrior in terms of damage dealing.
Cheers,
IT
I started playing a fighter in a tabletop session that I was super stoked to play, unfortunately it fell apart rather quickly. He was a Human (Variant) that I intended to play fighter until 5th level (I needed the ASI to bump my intelligence by 1 point as he started with a 12). He was a great weapon fighter who used Polearms (A Glaive in game, but he wasn't tied to that particular weapon) and the intent was that he would multiclass into Wizard as an exploration of the Runes that he began to have projected into his mind (that he would inscribe onto his armor, weapons, etc). As a Wizard he would become an Abjuration specialist and would pick up some utility spells, but I liked the synergy with the Abujuration Specialists Arcane Ward, so he could cast Shield and then also gain a Ward to protect him from Damage. The intent was that he would basically use his spell slots for Abjuration spells, and use Warcaster to combo greenflame blade with weapon attacks.
Anyways, maybe not the most optimized build, but I liked the theme of having this Dragon Hunter from the North who was a sailor (Viking Esque) and would inscribe these runes into his weapons and armor that would basically act as his spell book of sorts.
Correctly if I'm wrong but I don't believe someone wielding a 2 handed weapon needs Warcaster, because a 2 handed weapon requires 2 hands to use, but you can just hold it in one hand while you cast a spell.
Don't get me wrong the Adv on Concentration Checks is amazing to have for a fighter/caster, but the main part of the somatic components is to allow weapon & shield or duel wielding.
Edit to my previous post: I meant to say War Magic, not War Caster.
I believe you are correct Full Metal Bunny, I don't believe I ever intended to take War Caster as a feat as concentration spells were not going to be my forte.
Does EK not show up under character creation for anyone else on D&D Beyond? I'm not able to make any martial type besides champion ATM....
Thanks filcat!
I've played an Dwarf Eldritch Knight through Level 5 (all fighter/Eldritch knight). The 1st couple levels were hard (no spells, rogues did a lot more damage due to sneak attack, and I didn't choose a ranged weapon during character build (on purpose)), I was slow and couldn't sneak to save my life. Dark vision was really useful. Starting at Level 3 (when you get spells) it was really fun. I used the Firebolt and True Strike cantrips a lot and the Witch Bolt spell (1st level) as much as I had spell slots for. Using Action Surge for a spell was pretty useful a couple of times when I needed another few points of damage to drop a monster (firebolt). You really start to get into the fighting business at level 5 when you get two attacks per round and opportunity attacks lets you get off a spell in the same turn. Weapon bond is pretty cool too, you can leave your bonded weapon any where (assuming it's not taken off the prime material plane) and have it in hand if you need it. Walking around without being obviously armed is a very nice ability. My DM let me bond with my shield, saying it was within the spirit of the rules, as my 2nd weapon. Since I had chosen the Protection fighting style this made me very happy. All in all, it was sort of like being the dwarf equivalent of Iron Man.
I also play a Dwarf Eldritch Knight with Protection fighting style. My DM also allowed bonding to my shield. I agree it was a little slow at first, but after level 7, it is fantastic (War Magic is amazing). At level 9 I opted to multiclass to wizard, though (8/2 right now)
A portion of this excellent guide on EK's:
- Armor class: As you’ve noticed, EKs are the best defensive Fighters out there. I have mentioned the use of two-handed weapons, but they really shine with a shield in hand. Here’s how AC can work for a STR build (DEX builds should be one point behind with max DEX):
Full plate + shield: 20
Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style: 21
Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style + Shield (spell): 26
Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style + Shield (spell) + Haste or Shield of Faith (obtained through Magic Initiate): 28
Very few builds have this much AC without magic items.
If you have Blur up instead of Shield of Faith, it makes them attack you with disadvantage. If you have Mirror Image, they have to gamble to hit you and not one of your three copies. Both spells are available at level 8, or maybe even earlier if you multiclass Sorc/Wizard.
- Damage: War Magic with SCAG cantrips (Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade) is better than attacking from levels 7-10, and in some situations even further down the road. The main question is: how many bonus action uses you have other than Second Wind? If you plan on keeping it busy, then go for another attack at level 11. If not, then stick with War Magic.
In some fights you will prefer to concentrate on damaging spells rather than defensive ones. The best of those will be the ones that use your bonus action to deal damage (such as Melf’s Minute Meteors and Storm Sphere). If your targets have monstrous AC like you, forget attacking and go for save cantrips (Frostbite, Acid Splash, etc.) or save spells (Shatter, Fireball, etc.).
- Actions: A good player must always know what to do with its actions. Since you're a fighter, most of your actions will be spent attacking, but cantrips and spells will also be there for you when you need them. As for your bonus action, you've got Second Wind and Weapon Bond (situational), and later on War Magic. If possible, find other uses like Misty Step, Shield of Faith and Quickened Spell. For your reaction, you've got Shield and Absorb Elements, which should be plenty, so don't bother hunting down others.
- Diversification: As you might have noticed, 90% of your saves target DEX, and you need to add diversity to that. Shatter is a good start, since it targets CON. Frostbite too. When possible, also grab one that requires a WIS save (good example below). That way, you won’t be extremely pigeonholed. The same goes for energy types, too.
- Hold Person + Eldritch Strike + Action Surge (or The EK Annihilation): On the first round, attack a humanoid in any fashion you like. On the second one, cast Hold Person (they will save with disadvantage). On that same round, Action Surge to perform your regular attack routine, except this time with advantage… and critting on every hit. Who needs a Champion?
- Teamwork: Your job is very simple, kill all enemies without getting killed, and if possible protect your comrades. Really, that’s it. Use stuff like Booming Blade and Lightning Lure to make them focus on you if needed.
EKs enjoy being buffed. A lot. Some of the things they enjoy are Bless, Warding Bond (if the cleric is not taking damage too), Haste, Greater Invisibility and of course, Bardic Inspiration.
It’s also important to note that they require less healing than the average combatant, simply because they take less damage. For this same reason, healing spells are more valuable on them than say, a Ranger or a Paladin. Whenever possible, show love to your EK neighbor, and they shall reward you.
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