Please stop with this. You literally both think the same side will win, just under different conditions. Magic item’s won’t even make much difference to the chronurgist’s die buster anyway.
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I said "whatever magic items are reasonable." We can all agree on somethings that are unreasonable. If the pro-fighter side wants to claim that some amount of magic items are reasonable and that amount doesn't fall into the _clearly_ unreasonable range, then we can go with that. The wizard gets to match the fighter.
Answer: Completely and utterly subjective to the point that no standard can be made to acquire balance. Additionally the magic item reasonability argument immediately break's down when you release magic ammunition exists, poisons exist, potions exists, and tons of other magic items and normal items that would just break the game and destroy any resemblance of balance the whiteroom would give.
"Remember the wizard needs a turn to make his illusions real "
Who said that the wizard will even need to make his illusions real?
Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying since while the abjuration wizard has his Arcane Ward and Spell Resistance to survive and the Chronurgist/Diviner has their dice manipulation and a higher initiative roll.
Guess what the Illusion wizard has... that's right he has nothing to save him so assuming the Fighter goes first against the Illusion wizard the illusion wizard cannot survive the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build even if the illusion wizard went for a full tank build.
As for rules, like I said, I want the fighter to be as strong as reasonable. I'm not interested in arbitrarily restricting him. My wizard will still beat him. I'm not worried, as you are, about trying to put arbitrary restrictions on the fighter. I'm more confident than that.
Answer: This might sound like a slight but I think you lack reading comprehension skills (admittedly my posts aren't the best grammar but they are serviceable at least) if you honestly came to the conclusion that there is some type of barrier "restricting" the fighter when in fact we had to play to the fighters strength by having no prep time, play in a whiteroom and now that I'm thinking about it we still play to the fighter's strength when we remove magic items since that means the wizards AC/Hp isn't going to go up anymore with magic items.
So yeah now that I thought about it, how could the fighter win even if he has magic items when fighting a wizard with magic items and my conclusion is... he can't since for every magic item the fighter gets to increase his to hit, the wizard can increase their AC and Hp appropriately to respond to the fighter's increase in damage and the only thing I think the fighter could use to help him get the win is by using one of those op weapons like the Vorpal Sword where you can just one shot a creature unless they're to big.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed up something.
Please stop with this. You literally both think the same side will win, just under different conditions. Magic item’s won’t even make much difference to the chronurgist’s die buster anyway.
Answer: I don't think the illusion wizard can win that's what I'm saying. Actually like almost any other subclass could win BUT the illusion wizard could win against the fighter.
As for the Chronurgist yeah Convergent Future is very strong though not to forget it does cost a reaction while the Diviner's portents don't require a reaction.
First you were complaining that the fighter's magic weapons are more powerful than the wizard's and, so, including magic items wasn't fair. Now, you are complaining that the fighter would never gain any relative strength by having the comparison include magic items.
I don't think anybody can comprehend your point.
Answer: 1) I was talking damage wise a fighters magic items out do a wizards overall, 2) You can see me shift my view in the middle of when I was writing my post this shows that I shifted my Idea on the subject after I went into deep though about it... and when was changing one's idea on a topic something to be insulted over, 3) Rather than say I'm "complaining" or that you 'don't think anybody can comprehend your point" why don't you say why you think otherwise instead of insulting me especially when this forum has been relatively civil as of now.
Answer: I don't think the illusion wizard can win that's what I'm saying. Actually like almost any other subclass could win BUT the illusion wizard could win against the fighter.
As for the Chronurgist yeah Convergent Future is very strong though not to forget it does cost a reaction while the Diviner's portents don't require a reaction.
That's very interesting and I'd like to hear why you believe that. You haven't said as much so far.
Answer: After skimming through the wizards subclass based purely off of their own abilities I have organized them into 2 categories where I think they would stand
1) Likely to win:
Abjuration: Arcane Ward (regenerating , Spell Resistance, (Advantage/resistance against spells).
Bladesinging: Training in War and Song (Gives light armor proficiency so you can choose a non hobgoblin race like variant human/custom lineage to get an extra feat and that extra feat can quite literally make it possible for the Bladesinging wizard be able to win), sadly unless it's allowed the wizard doesn't start in the bladesong since if he did he would be absolutely fine.
Chronurgist: Come on do I even need to explain this... ok I will, Chronal Shift (Dis/Advantage), Convergent Future (Control Roll) and most of all you have Temporal Awareness (Int added to Initiative).
Divination: Haha same as above, wait again ok I will, Portent (2 d 20's saved to change a roll), Greater Portent (now you have more Portent).
War Magic: Tactical Wit (Int added to Initiative), then the war wizard has stuff like Arcane Deflection, and Deflecting Shroud that in conjunction with the Mage Slayer feat can actually get rid of the Fighter's Hex. There is an interesting interaction with a strategy done with the war magic's Durable Magic feature but I'll into that later (Power Surge could work against a EK quite well if the two just slung spells back and forth). But mostly you want Tactical Wit from War Magic though.
2) Unlikely to Win
Conjuration, Evocation, Enchantment, Graviturgy, Illusion, Necromancy, Order of the Scribes, and Transmutation. These all are less likely to win because they have no immediate innate bonus to combat.
Remember that techniqually any of the subclasses could still win since the good ol Polearm Master, Warcaster combo still works (could add metamagic adept for subtle spell aswell to make it impossible to block) along with the fact that the Initiative build also still exists that will make the wizard go first so he can cast a spell to win the game.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or if I messed up something.
Answer: 1) I was talking damage wise a fighters magic items out do a wizards overall, 2) You can see me shift my view in the middle of when I was writing my post this shows that I shifted my Idea on the subject after I went into deep though about it... and when was changing one's idea on a topic something to be insulted over, 3) Rather than say I'm "complaining" or that you 'don't think anybody can comprehend your point" why don't you say why you think otherwise instead of insulting me especially when this forum has been relatively civil as of now.
It would have been clearer if you had done the expected and customary thing of deleting anything you no longer believe _instead of_ posting it.
Answer: Well if I were to delete every post that would become obsolete 1) I would be here all day 2) I would be deleting a lot of important conversations that give context, depth, and age to the thread 3) I would be altering the entire thread since every single posts has effected or evolved the conversation 4) I would be unable to look back on my posts to reflect and improve 5) I would be altering the conversations with other people on a topic I value and am fond of 6) I would confuse the forum and anyone who would later read through the thread up to the present day since certain referenced posts and such would be altered as well as whenever someone got quoted their original post would be different.
Now last but not least 7) I see no real point to deleting my posts since I haven't posted anything I disliked or thought that it detracted from the conversation.
"Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying"
The Illusionist has Illusory Self which can trigger a Contingency. Also, he doesn't need to cast either Major Image or Creation. Both of them he can just carry with him. He just needs to use Malleable Illusions on them. And, because he doesn't need to cast them, they won't break even a second level illusion.
The fighter can't hurt what he can't target.
Answer: No one starts with prep so the illusionist wizard wouldn't have the Contingency spell up, nor any concentration/lasting spells active when he fights the fighter. While illusionary Self is good and you may be able to if your very lucky squeak past total damage by the Seppuku Sniper Samurai if you use Illusionary Self on a potential critical hit to dodge the damage and the SSS rolls low on damage then yeah the illusionist wizard might survive but it certainly isn't in the illusionist's favor.
If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning.
What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all.
Answer: Hah well aren't you facetious with that twisted logic the fighter wouldn't have equipped his clothes, armor, or backpack and they are just two naked people fighting to the death with no possessions having only a few innate features available to them of which since the wizard would no doubt still have Spell Mastery and Signature Spells the wizard would still be able to win via casting Fire Bolt for the damage, Misty Step for the distance, and Shield if you are ever going to be hit by the fighter as for the Signature Spells they don't matter that much but all we need to know is that they would be strong for this battle.
And just saying as for the prep thing the wizard having any amount of prep would mean the fighter's loss no matter what you do as even a single round of prep would mean the wizard could just cast Resilient Sphere and become invincible to every attack the fighter does then after that the wizard would just use whatever strategy or spell to defeat the fighter.
If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning.
What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all.
Answer: Hah well aren't you facetious with that twisted logic the fighter wouldn't have equipped his clothes, armor, or backpack and they are just two naked people fighting to the death with no possessions having only a few innate features available to them of which since the wizard would no doubt still have Spell Mastery and Signature Spells the wizard would still be able to win via casting Fire Bolt for the damage, Misty Step for the distance, and Shield if you are ever going to be hit by the fighter as for the Signature Spells they don't matter that much but all we need to know is that they would be strong for this battle.
And just saying as for the prep thing the wizard having any amount of prep would mean the fighter's loss no matter what you do as even a single round of prep would mean the wizard could just cast Resilient Sphere and become invincible to every attack the fighter does then after that the wizard would just use whatever strategy or spell to defeat the fighter.
How is any of that relevant to the points that I've been making?
Answer: How's that relevant you ask? in your previous post you made two points and I addressed them. Those points are:
1) "If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning."
My response was calling out your twisted logic and facetiousness (as it was so) since you were saying that just because the wizard didn't have "prep" he suddenly should be stripped of his spells because it's considered "prep." Then I even humoured such a statement played along and still showed how the wizard could still win even if he had no equipment.
2) "What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all."
As for this my response I said that you can't give prep out since it wouldn't be fair and the wizard would win 100% of the time and I showed that by giving the wizard a single turn of prep before the battle and with just a single turn of prep the wizard would be able to win 100% of the time (as I said).
And now if you had other points that you have made that you want me to address, review, or debate do so.
If you had been paying any attention to what I've been saying all this time, it was that the wizard would win.
So, WTF does your response to the first point you numbered above have to do with anything that I've been saying???
As for your second point, I mentioned no weeks of prep because people were mentioning simulacrum.
Answer: I know you said the wizard would win and I agree buuuuut you also said that the illusionist wizard could win as a subclass and I disagreed with that citing that the SSS build dealt to much damage for the illusionist wizard to survive from unless it used one of the builds I prescribed as any wizard could use them and win against the fighter.
My first response was a direct response against you saying "then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning" and I responded to what you said so I don't know what your talking about.
As for your third point you don't need weeks for the infinite simulacrum strategy you only need 12 hrs to cast Simulacrum then you have that simulacrum cast Wish and make a copy of the original wizard then have that newly made copy cast Wish so on and so forth. At that rate after the twelve hours for each hour afterward you get 600 simulacrums under your control. So with one day of prep you could get over 7000 simulacrums... in a day and with each day after that you would get an additional 14400 more simulacrums.
PS: I think you missed the point of my posts but whatever I hope you just reread them and understand since I've said it like 3 times now.
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower.
Notice that it doesn't say "spell effect," it says "spell." The _spell_ is duplicated. Duplicating a spell means duplicating its casting time and components.
The _spell_ (Simulacrum) has a casting time of 12 hours and 1500gp..
So, you can cast a duplicate of Simulacrum, via Wish, but it is going to take you 12 hours + 1 action. And each casting is going to cast you quite a bit of gold.
If Wish had said that it can duplicate the _effects_ of the spell, rather than the spell itself, then you wouldn't have this problem.
Also, none of your Simulacrums are going to be able to relearn their spells. So, you are probably casting all these Simulacrums immediately before the battle. You'd be starting 7,000 ^ 12 = 3500 hours, or about 5 months before the contest.
Answer: Um... did you really just read the the first part of the sentence for Wish then just not finish the sentence becuase your utterly and completely wrong. The full statement that you cite is:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
So yeah your wrong because if you just kept reading quite literally the next very sentence you would see that Wish doesn't care about components or casting time as it just takes effect. So yes I was right that in one day you would get over 7000 simulacrums.
No prep doesn’t mean no prepared spells or no gear. It means no setting traps or precast spells. Deathknight, you actually did post some strategies before requiring prep, most notably the assassination glyphs, but they ended up not being essential, so that’s fine.
Contingency for “teleport away” isn’t a win. It simply means they don’t fight.
Sim-wish needs the components exactly once unless you need exponential growth. If you do, you can still use wish to create money to spend there.
The illusionist has no subclass features good for this battle compared to any other wizard. Out of all the subclasses, this might be the worst here.
It is best to edit mid-post if you realize it is wrong. Makes it easier to read. All of us probably agree that deleting old posts isn’t necessary.
The battle has literally finished already the wizard wins so unless you have a fighter that beats the abjuration tank and/or the chronurgist initiative/roll-buster, please stop arguing about what wizard will win. The discussion is done.
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No prep doesn’t mean no prepared spells or no gear. It means no setting traps or precast spells. Deathknight, you actually did post some strategies before requiring prep, most notably the assassination glyphs, but they ended up not being essential, so that’s fine.
Answer: Yeah I know as for the strategies that require prep yeah there are some but I later also made a list of some strategies and builds the wizard could do in actual combat. In addition the reason I made the prep strategies is too show that the wizard if he want could mid battle teleport away and return not even like a day later with an army of simulacrums or whatever.
Contingency for “teleport away” isn’t a win. It simply means they don’t fight.
Answer: No one talked about contingency at all except for you but whatever and as for the teleport away it's not like they would stay away for ever the wizard would return and just one shot the fighter.
Sim-wish needs the components exactly once unless you need exponential growth. If you do, you can still use wish to create money to spend there.
Answer: Yes for the first casting you do need materials buuuut since all you need is snow/ice, hair/fingernails, and a ruby worth 1500 gp it not that hard to do observe:
1) Cast a summon creature spell or grab your familiar or some random rat.
2) Cast True Polymorph on said creature using the creature into object option to turn the creature into a very large ruby worth more than 1500 gp.
3) Now that you have the ruby, have five of your infinite simulacrums (made by casting wish over 5 days) use their 8th level spell slots and cast [spell]Control Weather/spell] five times in total to make the weather Artic Cold, Storm, Blizzard and now you have your Snow/ice for the spell.
4) As for the hair and/or fingernail clippings those are easily gained.
5) Using the snow from the altered weather, the transmuted ruby, and the wizards hair you then cast Simulacrum normally as such your new simulacrum has it's 9th level spell so that simulacrum then can start the infinite simulacrum spell chain.
The illusionist has no subclass features good for this battle compared to any other wizard. Out of all the subclasses, this might be the worst here.
Answer: At least the illusionist has illusionary self so it's not the worst, the worst I think is enchantment since it has no immediate buff for combat and while I think the enchantment subclass is a very good subclass it is not a good subclass for our purposes.
It is best to edit mid-post if you realize it is wrong. Makes it easier to read. All of us probably agree that deleting old posts isn’t necessary.
Answer: I have never deleted posts but I have edited them directly after I posted it.
The battle has literally finished already the wizard wins so unless you have a fighter that beats the abjuration tank and/or the chronurgist initiative/roll-buster, please stop arguing about what wizard will win. The discussion is done.
Answer; I beg to differ... well maybe but honestly I think if I spent some time on it (and I probably will) I could no doubt come up with a build to one shot the wizard on average and I'm not too far off I was only like 50ish damage away with the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build. With some changes I feel I could get that build up there to deal the minimum 265 hp even when against an AC of 25.
Thinking back I think I remember someone saying that Sharpshooter's -5 to hit +10 damage falls off at an AC of 25 so I should probably run the numbers again to see how much the fighter does but i'll do that later.
I was also talking to wren, who did mention contingency at some point. If they used the prep time to contingency away from battle, they already chose not to use prep time optimally. The simulacrum thing you are lowballing. Five will be yours after less than a minute from the first. Five days creates tens of thousands. This is done by having each simulacrum cast wish on you, so you don’t run out of wish but still get an army. The potential to one-turn-kill the abjurer is pretty good though, try running that. Not sure how well it’ll hold up against the diviner and chronurgist though.
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Wish does cast the spell in one round. I know, it’s overpowered. The rest is all valid, though the first thing to do with prep is true polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon or a pit fiend or something because wizards of the coast has a funny idea of balancing. Or the sim-wish exploit because the only thing stronger than a level 20 character is a hundred of them. Most wizards will take these, including illusionists, because there is exactly one ninth-level wizard illusion and it’s just not competitive by this point.
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Even if Wish doesn't duplicate the need for the original spell's components, casting time is not a component.
Answer: Nope still wrong... read the Wish spell again especially this part:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
The entire point of the Wish is to cast any spell without requirements (including costly components) and have the spell simply take effect as that is what it is literally made for and it's text reflects that as shown by the parts I bolded above for you to read again.
At this point, I frankly don't care for the restrictions you all using. I think they are horse manure. I thought that I made that clear. The following are the guidelines that I am using.
I am trying to best simulate the characters as they might exist in a game session who don't know ahead of time that this battle is happening.
1.) As characters in a game session have magic items, they have magic items here.
2.) The contest is "fighter vs. wizard" It is not "the best wizard to defeat a fighter." *I* chose, as a personal mental exercise, to restrict myself to the PHB and to avoid exotic subclasses, feats, and spells. Because I like Illusionists, I went with that. Since this is not a "the best wizard to defeat a fighter" contest, beating the fighter is all that I need to do.
3.) Concept is fundamental. My character is an Illusionist. As such, I'm trying to stick, as much as I can, to Illusion spells and college.
4.) Prep is reasonable. Five months of prep isn't reasonable. Less than 8 hours is.
Answer: I can't really say anything to that except are the "restriction" really that bad? Since the whiteroom scenario is supposed to be fair in all metrics I'd think you would have to give the whiteroom at least some credit.
Additionally when your doing your own introspection of Wizard vs Fighter I hope you take into account the wizards intellect is probably 20 (I would assume) and their knowledge, reasoning, and problem solving should be leagues above anyone as in real life the smartest person in human history would probably max at around 16-17 intelligence. Wizards also tend to be very wary creatures who have back up plans with back up plans just stacked on each other as no self respecting wizard should be caught aloof and unprepared.
As for the fighter I also hope you take into account that many fighters are hardcore veterans who know their way around a battlefield and should probably known many ways to improvise and adapt to opponents using wit.
But that is just my word on it take it as you will.
I was also talking to wren, who did mention contingency at some point. If they used the prep time to contingency away from battle, they already chose not to use prep time optimally. The simulacrum thing you are lowballing. Five will be yours after less than a minute from the first. Five days creates tens of thousands. This is done by having each simulacrum cast wish on you, so you don’t run out of wish but still get an army.
Answer: I feel this part is addressing wren so I won't address it as I agree with King that Wish and Simulacrum are no joke and they are high level spells for a reason.
The potential to one-turn-kill the abjurer is pretty good though, try running that. Not sure how well it’ll hold up against the diviner and chronurgist though.
Answer: Yeah that is what I'm thinking as well as I honestly do think it is possible for the fighter to be able to kill the abjuration wizard even if the build to do kill the tank wizard hasn't been written i do think it exists and I think as I said if I put a whole lot of thought into it and redid the numbers a bit I do think it could be done.
As for the Chronurgist/Diviner/War Magic wizards along with the others I still don't see how the fighter would get a majority winrate. And this is STILL ignoring the entirety of the War Caster, Polearm Master strategy which can instantly one shot the fighter when he enters the wizards range.
Wish does cast the spell in one round. I know, it’s overpowered. The rest is all valid, though the first thing to do with prep is true polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon or a pit fiend or something because wizards of the coast has a funny idea of balancing. Or the sim-wish exploit because the only thing stronger than a level 20 character is a hundred of them. Most wizards will take these, including illusionists, because there is exactly one ninth-level wizard illusion and it’s just not competitive by this point.
Answer: Yep Wish is strong but that is the point and honestly I'd argue that True Polymorph, Simulacrum, Arcanist's Magic Aura along with weirdly enough the spell Gate is also on the level of Wish. When I say on those spells are on the level of wish I'm not talking about versatility since wish out classes every spell when comparing versatility the thing I'm comparing is the unique power they wield and as such they are strong.
Wish does cast the spell in one round. I know, it’s overpowered. The rest is all valid, though the first thing to do with prep is true polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon or a pit fiend or something because wizards of the coast has a funny idea of balancing. Or the sim-wish exploit because the only thing stronger than a level 20 character is a hundred of them. Most wizards will take these, including illusionists, because there is exactly one ninth-level wizard illusion and it’s just not competitive by this point.
Answer: Yep Wish is strong but that is the point and honestly I'd argue that True Polymorph, Simulacrum, Arcanist's Magic Aura along with weirdly enough the spell Gate is also on the level of Wish. When I say on those spells are on the level of wish I'm not talking about versatility since wish out classes every spell when comparing versatility the thing I'm comparing is the unique power they wield and as such they are strong.
All those spells are powerful. True polymorph might even be better unless the dm is very generous or you combine it with other things. The mention of spells that aren’t ninth level means this is relative to spell level, or two of those would be copied with wish.
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Strategy: Cast Simulacrum, then cast True Polymorph on your copy transforming it into a Adult Gold Dragon or a something else that you want to be. Then using the dragon's Change Shape into a humanoid or using Arcanist's Magic Aura's Mask option which reads as: "You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment" to turn the target into a humanoid for all intents and purposes you can finally cast the Magic Jar spell possessing said creature. While possessing said creature lower your HP and cast the Clone spell then Power Word Kill yourself so you die as that creature and transport into the clone becoming finally the creature you wanted to be permanently with all your class levels, class features and spells becoming incredibly overpowered.
Mind you The Magnus Opus strategy works by RAW and honestly it while may seem convoluted it's quite streamline at least I think as these spells in there smaller interactions work together but when all combined form a streamline timeline of events with the only outlier being the Power Word Kill to make sure you die as that creature to permanentize the effects of the combo.
Clone doesn't work with Magic Jar - 'if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.' You aren't the original creature, ergo you don't get to go to the clone. You either go back to the jar, or use a clone of your original body to cheat death.
Wren read the wish spell it’s not that hard like actually I’m starting to think you never even searched up the spell to look at it ok I’ll link it again Wish. And I’ll show you what I’m talking about:
“The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.“
Ok there the parts I have bolded show that you need DON’T need to meet ANY requirements and that means no components, casting time, having the spell prepared or anything. Since the wish has an instantaneous duration and a casting time of 1 action and that “the spell simply takes effect” it makes you able to cast whatever spell for free and in an instant.
Like actually just search up the spell you will see that I am right as thousands of people among thousands of forums agree since that is how wish is supposed to work.
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Please stop with this. You literally both think the same side will win, just under different conditions. Magic item’s won’t even make much difference to the chronurgist’s die buster anyway.
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Answer: Completely and utterly subjective to the point that no standard can be made to acquire balance. Additionally the magic item reasonability argument immediately break's down when you release magic ammunition exists, poisons exist, potions exists, and tons of other magic items and normal items that would just break the game and destroy any resemblance of balance the whiteroom would give.
Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying since while the abjuration wizard has his Arcane Ward and Spell Resistance to survive and the Chronurgist/Diviner has their dice manipulation and a higher initiative roll.
Guess what the Illusion wizard has... that's right he has nothing to save him so assuming the Fighter goes first against the Illusion wizard the illusion wizard cannot survive the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build even if the illusion wizard went for a full tank build.
Answer: This might sound like a slight but I think you lack reading comprehension skills (admittedly my posts aren't the best grammar but they are serviceable at least) if you honestly came to the conclusion that there is some type of barrier "restricting" the fighter when in fact we had to play to the fighters strength by having no prep time, play in a whiteroom and now that I'm thinking about it we still play to the fighter's strength when we remove magic items since that means the wizards AC/Hp isn't going to go up anymore with magic items.
So yeah now that I thought about it, how could the fighter win even if he has magic items when fighting a wizard with magic items and my conclusion is... he can't since for every magic item the fighter gets to increase his to hit, the wizard can increase their AC and Hp appropriately to respond to the fighter's increase in damage and the only thing I think the fighter could use to help him get the win is by using one of those op weapons like the Vorpal Sword where you can just one shot a creature unless they're to big.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed up something.
Answer: I don't think the illusion wizard can win that's what I'm saying. Actually like almost any other subclass could win BUT the illusion wizard could win against the fighter.
As for the Chronurgist yeah Convergent Future is very strong though not to forget it does cost a reaction while the Diviner's portents don't require a reaction.
Answer: 1) I was talking damage wise a fighters magic items out do a wizards overall, 2) You can see me shift my view in the middle of when I was writing my post this shows that I shifted my Idea on the subject after I went into deep though about it... and when was changing one's idea on a topic something to be insulted over, 3) Rather than say I'm "complaining" or that you 'don't think anybody can comprehend your point" why don't you say why you think otherwise instead of insulting me especially when this forum has been relatively civil as of now.
Answer: After skimming through the wizards subclass based purely off of their own abilities I have organized them into 2 categories where I think they would stand
1) Likely to win:
Abjuration: Arcane Ward (regenerating , Spell Resistance, (Advantage/resistance against spells).
Bladesinging: Training in War and Song (Gives light armor proficiency so you can choose a non hobgoblin race like variant human/custom lineage to get an extra feat and that extra feat can quite literally make it possible for the Bladesinging wizard be able to win), sadly unless it's allowed the wizard doesn't start in the bladesong since if he did he would be absolutely fine.
Chronurgist: Come on do I even need to explain this... ok I will, Chronal Shift (Dis/Advantage), Convergent Future (Control Roll) and most of all you have Temporal Awareness (Int added to Initiative).
Divination: Haha same as above, wait again ok I will, Portent (2 d 20's saved to change a roll), Greater Portent (now you have more Portent).
War Magic: Tactical Wit (Int added to Initiative), then the war wizard has stuff like Arcane Deflection, and Deflecting Shroud that in conjunction with the Mage Slayer feat can actually get rid of the Fighter's Hex. There is an interesting interaction with a strategy done with the war magic's Durable Magic feature but I'll into that later (Power Surge could work against a EK quite well if the two just slung spells back and forth). But mostly you want Tactical Wit from War Magic though.
2) Unlikely to Win
Conjuration, Evocation, Enchantment, Graviturgy, Illusion, Necromancy, Order of the Scribes, and Transmutation. These all are less likely to win because they have no immediate innate bonus to combat.
Remember that techniqually any of the subclasses could still win since the good ol Polearm Master, Warcaster combo still works (could add metamagic adept for subtle spell aswell to make it impossible to block) along with the fact that the Initiative build also still exists that will make the wizard go first so he can cast a spell to win the game.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or if I messed up something.
Answer: Well if I were to delete every post that would become obsolete 1) I would be here all day 2) I would be deleting a lot of important conversations that give context, depth, and age to the thread 3) I would be altering the entire thread since every single posts has effected or evolved the conversation 4) I would be unable to look back on my posts to reflect and improve 5) I would be altering the conversations with other people on a topic I value and am fond of 6) I would confuse the forum and anyone who would later read through the thread up to the present day since certain referenced posts and such would be altered as well as whenever someone got quoted their original post would be different.
Now last but not least 7) I see no real point to deleting my posts since I haven't posted anything I disliked or thought that it detracted from the conversation.
Answer: No one starts with prep so the illusionist wizard wouldn't have the Contingency spell up, nor any concentration/lasting spells active when he fights the fighter. While illusionary Self is good and you may be able to if your very lucky squeak past total damage by the Seppuku Sniper Samurai if you use Illusionary Self on a potential critical hit to dodge the damage and the SSS rolls low on damage then yeah the illusionist wizard might survive but it certainly isn't in the illusionist's favor.
Answer: Hah well aren't you facetious with that twisted logic the fighter wouldn't have equipped his clothes, armor, or backpack and they are just two naked people fighting to the death with no possessions having only a few innate features available to them of which since the wizard would no doubt still have Spell Mastery and Signature Spells the wizard would still be able to win via casting Fire Bolt for the damage, Misty Step for the distance, and Shield if you are ever going to be hit by the fighter as for the Signature Spells they don't matter that much but all we need to know is that they would be strong for this battle.
And just saying as for the prep thing the wizard having any amount of prep would mean the fighter's loss no matter what you do as even a single round of prep would mean the wizard could just cast Resilient Sphere and become invincible to every attack the fighter does then after that the wizard would just use whatever strategy or spell to defeat the fighter.
Answer: How's that relevant you ask? in your previous post you made two points and I addressed them. Those points are:
1) "If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning."
My response was calling out your twisted logic and facetiousness (as it was so) since you were saying that just because the wizard didn't have "prep" he suddenly should be stripped of his spells because it's considered "prep." Then I even humoured such a statement played along and still showed how the wizard could still win even if he had no equipment.
2) "What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all."
As for this my response I said that you can't give prep out since it wouldn't be fair and the wizard would win 100% of the time and I showed that by giving the wizard a single turn of prep before the battle and with just a single turn of prep the wizard would be able to win 100% of the time (as I said).
And now if you had other points that you have made that you want me to address, review, or debate do so.
Answer: I know you said the wizard would win and I agree buuuuut you also said that the illusionist wizard could win as a subclass and I disagreed with that citing that the SSS build dealt to much damage for the illusionist wizard to survive from unless it used one of the builds I prescribed as any wizard could use them and win against the fighter.
My first response was a direct response against you saying "then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning" and I responded to what you said so I don't know what your talking about.
As for your third point you don't need weeks for the infinite simulacrum strategy you only need 12 hrs to cast Simulacrum then you have that simulacrum cast Wish and make a copy of the original wizard then have that newly made copy cast Wish so on and so forth. At that rate after the twelve hours for each hour afterward you get 600 simulacrums under your control. So with one day of prep you could get over 7000 simulacrums... in a day and with each day after that you would get an additional 14400 more simulacrums.
PS: I think you missed the point of my posts but whatever I hope you just reread them and understand since I've said it like 3 times now.
Answer: Um... did you really just read the the first part of the sentence for Wish then just not finish the sentence becuase your utterly and completely wrong. The full statement that you cite is:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
So yeah your wrong because if you just kept reading quite literally the next very sentence you would see that Wish doesn't care about components or casting time as it just takes effect. So yes I was right that in one day you would get over 7000 simulacrums.
A lot to reply to. You really do post a lot.
No prep doesn’t mean no prepared spells or no gear. It means no setting traps or precast spells. Deathknight, you actually did post some strategies before requiring prep, most notably the assassination glyphs, but they ended up not being essential, so that’s fine.
Contingency for “teleport away” isn’t a win. It simply means they don’t fight.
Sim-wish needs the components exactly once unless you need exponential growth. If you do, you can still use wish to create money to spend there.
The illusionist has no subclass features good for this battle compared to any other wizard. Out of all the subclasses, this might be the worst here.
It is best to edit mid-post if you realize it is wrong. Makes it easier to read. All of us probably agree that deleting old posts isn’t necessary.
The battle has literally finished already the wizard wins so unless you have a fighter that beats the abjuration tank and/or the chronurgist initiative/roll-buster, please stop arguing about what wizard will win. The discussion is done.
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Answer: Thanks I guess.
Answer: Yeah I know as for the strategies that require prep yeah there are some but I later also made a list of some strategies and builds the wizard could do in actual combat. In addition the reason I made the prep strategies is too show that the wizard if he want could mid battle teleport away and return not even like a day later with an army of simulacrums or whatever.
Answer: No one talked about contingency at all except for you but whatever and as for the teleport away it's not like they would stay away for ever the wizard would return and just one shot the fighter.
Answer: Yes for the first casting you do need materials buuuut since all you need is snow/ice, hair/fingernails, and a ruby worth 1500 gp it not that hard to do observe:
1) Cast a summon creature spell or grab your familiar or some random rat.
2) Cast True Polymorph on said creature using the creature into object option to turn the creature into a very large ruby worth more than 1500 gp.
3) Now that you have the ruby, have five of your infinite simulacrums (made by casting wish over 5 days) use their 8th level spell slots and cast [spell]Control Weather/spell] five times in total to make the weather Artic Cold, Storm, Blizzard and now you have your Snow/ice for the spell.
4) As for the hair and/or fingernail clippings those are easily gained.
5) Using the snow from the altered weather, the transmuted ruby, and the wizards hair you then cast Simulacrum normally as such your new simulacrum has it's 9th level spell so that simulacrum then can start the infinite simulacrum spell chain.
Answer: At least the illusionist has illusionary self so it's not the worst, the worst I think is enchantment since it has no immediate buff for combat and while I think the enchantment subclass is a very good subclass it is not a good subclass for our purposes.
Answer: I have never deleted posts but I have edited them directly after I posted it.
Answer; I beg to differ... well maybe but honestly I think if I spent some time on it (and I probably will) I could no doubt come up with a build to one shot the wizard on average and I'm not too far off I was only like 50ish damage away with the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build. With some changes I feel I could get that build up there to deal the minimum 265 hp even when against an AC of 25.
Thinking back I think I remember someone saying that Sharpshooter's -5 to hit +10 damage falls off at an AC of 25 so I should probably run the numbers again to see how much the fighter does but i'll do that later.
I was also talking to wren, who did mention contingency at some point. If they used the prep time to contingency away from battle, they already chose not to use prep time optimally. The simulacrum thing you are lowballing. Five will be yours after less than a minute from the first. Five days creates tens of thousands. This is done by having each simulacrum cast wish on you, so you don’t run out of wish but still get an army. The potential to one-turn-kill the abjurer is pretty good though, try running that. Not sure how well it’ll hold up against the diviner and chronurgist though.
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Wish does cast the spell in one round. I know, it’s overpowered. The rest is all valid, though the first thing to do with prep is true polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon or a pit fiend or something because wizards of the coast has a funny idea of balancing. Or the sim-wish exploit because the only thing stronger than a level 20 character is a hundred of them. Most wizards will take these, including illusionists, because there is exactly one ninth-level wizard illusion and it’s just not competitive by this point.
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Answer: Nope still wrong... read the Wish spell again especially this part:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
The entire point of the Wish is to cast any spell without requirements (including costly components) and have the spell simply take effect as that is what it is literally made for and it's text reflects that as shown by the parts I bolded above for you to read again.
Answer: I can't really say anything to that except are the "restriction" really that bad? Since the whiteroom scenario is supposed to be fair in all metrics I'd think you would have to give the whiteroom at least some credit.
Additionally when your doing your own introspection of Wizard vs Fighter I hope you take into account the wizards intellect is probably 20 (I would assume) and their knowledge, reasoning, and problem solving should be leagues above anyone as in real life the smartest person in human history would probably max at around 16-17 intelligence. Wizards also tend to be very wary creatures who have back up plans with back up plans just stacked on each other as no self respecting wizard should be caught aloof and unprepared.
As for the fighter I also hope you take into account that many fighters are hardcore veterans who know their way around a battlefield and should probably known many ways to improvise and adapt to opponents using wit.
But that is just my word on it take it as you will.
Answer: I feel this part is addressing wren so I won't address it as I agree with King that Wish and Simulacrum are no joke and they are high level spells for a reason.
Answer: Yeah that is what I'm thinking as well as I honestly do think it is possible for the fighter to be able to kill the abjuration wizard even if the build to do kill the tank wizard hasn't been written i do think it exists and I think as I said if I put a whole lot of thought into it and redid the numbers a bit I do think it could be done.
As for the Chronurgist/Diviner/War Magic wizards along with the others I still don't see how the fighter would get a majority winrate. And this is STILL ignoring the entirety of the War Caster, Polearm Master strategy which can instantly one shot the fighter when he enters the wizards range.
Answer: Yep Wish is strong but that is the point and honestly I'd argue that True Polymorph, Simulacrum, Arcanist's Magic Aura along with weirdly enough the spell Gate is also on the level of Wish. When I say on those spells are on the level of wish I'm not talking about versatility since wish out classes every spell when comparing versatility the thing I'm comparing is the unique power they wield and as such they are strong.
All those spells are powerful. True polymorph might even be better unless the dm is very generous or you combine it with other things. The mention of spells that aren’t ninth level means this is relative to spell level, or two of those would be copied with wish.
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Clone doesn't work with Magic Jar - 'if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.' You aren't the original creature, ergo you don't get to go to the clone. You either go back to the jar, or use a clone of your original body to cheat death.
Wren read the wish spell it’s not that hard like actually I’m starting to think you never even searched up the spell to look at it ok I’ll link it again Wish. And I’ll show you what I’m talking about:
“The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.“
Ok there the parts I have bolded show that you need DON’T need to meet ANY requirements and that means no components, casting time, having the spell prepared or anything. Since the wish has an instantaneous duration and a casting time of 1 action and that “the spell simply takes effect” it makes you able to cast whatever spell for free and in an instant.
Like actually just search up the spell you will see that I am right as thousands of people among thousands of forums agree since that is how wish is supposed to work.