That does change things. Some of the wizard strategies used pricey consumable material components (like the glyph of assassination strat or invulnerability), and most people did not give the fighter magic items, although full plate is typically assumed to be available. Though if wish is available, the wizard can wish up a spell without needing a pricey component.
Answer: The glyph strategy doesn't necessarily require costly components as as you say due to wish a spell's components and such are effectively ignored.
The invulnerability is only really counterable if an eldritch knight uses dispel magic. People need to give them more respect in this matchup.
Answer: The thing is while yes the EK can shut down some spells and effects he just doesn't have the need amount of spells to attempt to counter the wizard and dispel his magic the EK just doesn't have the spell slots to compete and this is still ignoring the act that the wizard doesn't need to rely on jus one spell like Invulnerability when the wizard has hundreds of better spells to achieve victory through one way or another. The EK can only potentially lengthen his demise when fighting the wizard.
The magic item thing needs balancing too. No artifacts and few to no legendary items, but otherwise no idea how this should be done.
Answer: It shouldn't be done that's the answer since then its not Fighter vs Wizard it becomes magic item vs magic item and some of those magic items are broken even non legendary items like Oathbow, Arrow of Slaying, and Bracers of Archery with those the SSS could quite literally kill Tiamat in one turn probably even easily and that's what I'm talking about magic items are so strong and those aren't even the best items out there.
Magic items an 1000s of gold pieces consumable components should ether both be allowed or both heavily restricted. Considering their levels, probably allowed.
Answer: Not all magic items have fixed prices and are subject to DM conjecture and getting into magic items in general when comparing class not only detracts from the class vs class battle but also adds in soooo many variables.
In addition magic items would almost exclusively benefit the fighter to such a degree that it not even funny as while a magic item might save a wizard from a casting spell once a day that same magic item would add a completely new set of movement for the fighter (think of a wizard having boots of flying vs a a fighter having boots of flying).
Not only that but magic items also almost exclusively tend to buff non magic casters more on a general sense especially when you consider there are almost no magic items that increase the damage output of a spellcaster on the same level certain magic items buff a fighter.
Anyways but that's just the tip of the iceberg but I hope you understand why magic items aren't used most if not all the time in these battles/comparisons.
EDIT: Fixed the magic items as I accidently put "item" in the bar and not "magicitem" so forgive it's fixed now.
Bring in eldritch knight. You forget that they don’t even have to go out of their way to take counterspell or dispel magic.
You look at wizard spells and forget that the eldritch knight can take some lower-end ones. Being able to counter wall of force is not “all the EK has going for it” It is able to roll against wizard spells, even if the chance of blocking a level 9 spell is only 1/3, and evade shield by using hold person to bait counterspell and action surge to strike. You claim spells to be overpowered yet dismiss the fighter that can use them.
Not being brain dead to play does not make it a poor subclass. But you are right that the game is not balanced for pvp. And polymorph often isn’t balanced period.
The magic item thing I agree is subjective but then again so is most of this thread. So many variables needed to determine anything, and none of them can be decided on. High leveled characters should have some magic items by now in most cases even if just basic +2 weapons and focuses. And the wish thing is using now like, 4 months to prepare a 1 use thing. Potent, but not that practical because what if the wizard had 1 tough fight last week?
Also, which items? They are showing [tooltip not found] for me.
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Overall the wizard even with 4th level spells isn't really going to struggle much with the fighter. The game isn't designed with PvP in mind so being able to polymorph into a creature that can absorb 90% of the fighters action surge damage output in THP and then you would have to eat through another 200+ HP on top of that....
Answer: Yeah Polymorph is very strong as against most of the nova builds it just cancels out any damage done by giving you a large health pool for one 4th level spell slot... and remember that one T-rex the fighter may defeat is going to return two more times at least. Additionally if the wizard can get a short rest in at some point the fighter is going to have to fight two more T-rexes in a row then still fight a level 20 wizard after that and even with like no spells the wizard as I have shown can still defeat the fighter in many ways off of merely at will resources.
Spells are just next level when it comes to PvP as they are meant to counter party threats not a single PC.
Answer: Absolutely correct especially when you realize the CR 8 T-rex is ,made to fight 4 level 8 players in a fair battle most of the time and then you take into account all of the save or suck spells or the just haha you lose spells the wizard has the fight becomes even worse for the fighter.
A wall of force alone shuts down pretty much every fighter sans EK but that's about all the EK has going for it
If you try to cast a spell on the wizard they can counter spell it before they even have to try to make a save...
Answer: Yeah I talked about that in my previous post but the EK has like two-ish options:
1) Attempt to Hold Person a tanky abjuration wizard...
OR
2) Delay his defeat for X amount of turns until his is killed by the wizard.
The ball is completely in the wizards court unless the fighter has a way to stun them.
The only build that has a good shot is the arcane Archer build with the banishment arrows as that shuts the action economy of the wizard to 0.
Answer: I gotta be honest the AAA build is not gonna win like at all... the AAA build relies on the wizard failing multiple saving throws and the AAA hitting perfectly against a wizard... it has a worse chance than the SSS and arguably against the EK as well as both are high volatile strategies which rely on everything ending perfectly for the fighter.
Bring in eldritch knight. You forget that they don’t even have to go out of their way to take counterspell or dispel magic.
You look at wizard spells and forget that the eldritch knight can take some lower-end ones. Being able to counter wall of force is not “all the EK has going for it” It is able to roll against wizard spells, even if the chance of blocking a level 9 spell is only 1/3, and evade shield by using hold person to bait counterspell and action surge to strike. You claim spells to be overpowered yet dismiss the fighter that can use them.
Answer: he can't use even half the spells the wizard has access to to and by the nature of the wizard having higher spell slots his spells are harder to ignore or counter/dispel as where the wizard can quite literally in every way out wizard the eldritch knight to such a degree as the leave the EK helpless. And even if the EK got some hits in while thay would be damaging the EK is not the SSS and the abjuration literally has Spell Resistance so yeah the EK's spells aren't going to do much except delay (and against some spells not even delay) the wizard.
Not being brain dead to play does not make it a poor subclass. But you are right that the game is not balanced for pvp. And polymorph often isn’t balanced period.
Answer: Yah it ain't balanced for pvp but that's what makes it fun!
Bring in eldritch knight. You forget that they don’t even have to go out of their way to take counterspell or dispel magic.
You look at wizard spells and forget that the eldritch knight can take some lower-end ones. Being able to counter wall of force is not “all the EK has going for it” It is able to roll against wizard spells, even if the chance of blocking a level 9 spell is only 1/3, and evade shield by using hold person to bait counterspell and action surge to strike. You claim spells to be overpowered yet dismiss the fighter that can use them.
Not being brain dead to play does not make it a poor subclass. But you are right that the game is not balanced for pvp. And polymorph often isn’t balanced period.
Edit: talking to optimusgrimus
And the wizard will always be able to counterspell your counterspell, not to mention that spell level figures into all of this. A 9th level spell can be pretty tough to counterspell, as you note, and in a counterspell fight, the wizard will have the advantage. His counterspell can use a higher slot than the EK can. Which means the wizard can't lose a counterspell fight, unless they misplayed it and counterspelled with a lower level spell slot.
This also ignores that multiple wizard subclasses can pretty much choose your roll for you and/or make you roll a good roll again. The wizard has a huge advantage in all of this, especially with certain subclasses.
Oh yeah I just wanna put this out there that with True Polymorph if the wizard uses it on him self he can transform into a Iron Golem, Rakshasa, or some other monster that is immune to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks as by having such an immunity (the Rakshasa would also be completely immune to the EK) the wizard would be effectively untouchable and keep in mind that those aren't even the strongest forms.
Bring in eldritch knight. You forget that they don’t even have to go out of their way to take counterspell or dispel magic.
You look at wizard spells and forget that the eldritch knight can take some lower-end ones. Being able to counter wall of force is not “all the EK has going for it” It is able to roll against wizard spells, even if the chance of blocking a level 9 spell is only 1/3, and evade shield by using hold person to bait counterspell and action surge to strike. You claim spells to be overpowered yet dismiss the fighter that can use them.
Not being brain dead to play does not make it a poor subclass. But you are right that the game is not balanced for pvp. And polymorph often isn’t balanced period.
Edit: talking to optimusgrimus
The problem with the fighter trying to cast spells is it's very unlikely to work for them as the wizard has counter spell and a ton of options for making saves.
The only chance a fighter has is damage... And I think it's been shown that wizards have more than enough options to just make it through a damage barrage. Even if you hold them to just 4th or lower spells.
I think it was pointed out in another thread that one leveled spell per turn technically only applies for bonus actions, meaning action surge+hold person x2 is possible for evading counterspell. This is likely an oversight, but shield baiting with weapon attacks then action surge for hold person is also an option. The wizard has 1 reaction, and shield+counterspell is 2.
It is also possible and satisfying for both sides to counterspell counterspell. Once again, initiative contest.
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I think it was pointed out in another thread that one leveled spell per turn technically only applies for bonus actions, meaning action surge+hold person x2 is possible for evading counterspell. This is likely an oversight, but shield baiting with weapon attacks then action surge for hold person is also an option. The wizard has 1 reaction, and shield+counterspell is 2.
It is also possible and satisfying for both sides to counterspell counterspell. Once again, initiative contest.
Then the fighter is spending it's action, reaction, one action surge, and two of it's precious spell slots to attempt (not even ensure) a spell on the wizard? Man that's a terrible trade....
If the spell fails (likely as the fighter likely hasn't maxed INT if they want to maximize their initiative) then they effectively halve their damage. Again terrible trade imo
The "bait" screws the fighter more as they will do worse damage with just 4 attacks at a lower AC.
I think it was pointed out in another thread that one leveled spell per turn technically only applies for bonus actions, meaning action surge+hold person x2 is possible for evading counterspell. This is likely an oversight,
Answer: No it is not an oversight (as far as I know) since action surge gives you another action so its a different thing. And while yes the EK can cast 2 Hold Person spells it doesn't change the fact that the abjuration wizard has Spell Resistance and can have the Resilience and Lucky feats do make an already hard task to do nearly impossible to do.
but shield baiting with weapon attacks then action surge for hold person is also an option. The wizard has 1 reaction, and shield+counterspell is 2.
It is also possible and satisfying for both sides to counterspell counterspell. Once again, initiative contest.
Answer: As baiting Shield it might work probably not if assuming knowledge and even if you get the wizard to cast Shield you still have to land the Hold Person or the entire strategy is over and the fighter will lose.
As for initiative the wizard can win it anytime of the day if you consider that the best initiative build of the fighter is still a good league behind the wizard.
To be honest, why was the tank wiz ever the top? The initiative build is far harder to counter. Going first the EK has a chance of hold person winning, but I cannot think of a way to beat the initiative guy at full power.
I think however that the rakshasa is possible, if far from probable, for an eldritch knight to stop. Dispel magic should have a 1/3 chance of undoing true polymorph, and can’t counterspell. That is pretty bad for the fighter, but it is 90% wizard, not 100%. The rakshasa seems to be created to avoid damage, but if any variety of magic weapon is available, it is pretty weak compared to the rest of true polymorph.
The shield-bait goes like this: attack with weapon. If the wizard shields, action surge + hold person without counterspell to stop you. Otherwise, either use action surge to continue attacking or simply stop there if you are about to run out of surges. Really should have called it reaction-baiting, because the goal is to bait out a reaction in the form of a shield to evade counterspell.
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To be honest, why was the tank wiz ever the top? The initiative build is far harder to counter. Going first the EK has a chance of hold person winning, but I cannot think of a way to beat the initiative guy at full power.
I think however that the rakshasa is possible, if far from probable, for an eldritch knight to stop. Dispel magic should have a 1/3 chance of undoing true polymorph, and can’t counterspell. That is pretty bad for the fighter, but it is 90% wizard, not 100%. The rakshasa seems to be created to avoid damage, but if any variety of magic weapon is available, it is pretty weak compared to the rest of true polymorph.
The shield-bait goes like this: attack with weapon. If the wizard shields, action surge + hold person without counterspell to stop you. Otherwise, either use action surge to continue attacking or simply stop there if you are about to run out of surges. Really should have called it reaction-baiting, because the goal is to bait out a reaction in the form of a shield to evade counterspell.
There is zero percentage change of a Chronurgy wizard failing the save on Hold Person, at least early on. They can just decide they make the save and make it. Or they can decide that you fail a save...and you fail. So they won't fail the Hold Person...but you will.
"Convergent Future
14th-level Chronurgy Magic feature
You can peer through possible futures and magically pull one of them into events around you, ensuring a particular outcome. When you or a creature you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction to ignore the die roll and decide whether the number rolled is the minimum needed to succeed or one less than that number (your choice).
When you use this feature, you gain one level of exhaustion. Only by finishing a long rest can you remove a level of exhaustion gained in this way."
To be honest, why was the tank wiz ever the top? The initiative build is far harder to counter. Going first the EK has a chance of hold person winning, but I cannot think of a way to beat the initiative guy at full power.
I think however that the rakshasa is possible, if far from probable, for an eldritch knight to stop. Dispel magic should have a 1/3 chance of undoing true polymorph, and can’t counterspell. That is pretty bad for the fighter, but it is 90% wizard, not 100%. The rakshasa seems to be created to avoid damage, but if any variety of magic weapon is available, it is pretty weak compared to the rest of true polymorph.
The shield-bait goes like this: attack with weapon. If the wizard shields, action surge + hold person without counterspell to stop you. Otherwise, either use action surge to continue attacking or simply stop there if you are about to run out of surges. Really should have called it reaction-baiting, because the goal is to bait out a reaction in the form of a shield to evade counterspell.
Wizards have a lot of subclasses with buffs to their initiative, built in. And ways to either make saving throws or cause others to fail them. A number of subclasses have these features.
Yeah the EK can hold up to most of the rest OK but the chronurgy is overpowered. Kind of like the knight itself really. It’s not every day you use 2 leveled spells and a d8+5 weapon attack in one turn. But the guaranteed fail is broken good, even at the cost of exhaustion, because that seems to be the only limitation.
But what happens when one chronurgist causes an auto-success and the other an auto-fail? Use the original roll? The second one wins? Coin flip? Temporal paradox that ends the campaign? The plane splits in two, with both intersecting each other at various points? That is probably beyond the scope of this thread to answer.
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To be honest, why was the tank wiz ever the top? The initiative build is far harder to counter. Going first the EK has a chance of hold person winning, but I cannot think of a way to beat the initiative guy at full power.
Answer: The tank wizard is on top because no build has a realistic chance against him as on average the tank wizard beats every build mentioned so far as the wizard has Spell Resistance, and 265 Hp with a 25 AC as to completely shut down the fighter. Meanwhile while yes the Initiative wizard is probably more powerful overall as he has one of the highest Initiative scores available but he is still prone to the power of the d20 as he can roll a 1 and get only a 21 initiative or roll a 20 and get a like 48 initiative score or whatever the Rabbitfolk Chronurgist’s initiative bonus is. As such the initiative wizard has a greater chance to lose since they sole rely on the d20 roll although while they do have lucky and such to reroll it still doesn’t change that the wizard’s fate is at the beck and call of the dice.
I think however that the rakshasa is possible, if far from probable, for an eldritch knight to stop. Dispel magic should have a 1/3 chance of undoing true polymorph, and can’t counterspell.
Answer: Rakshasa is immune to the entire EK’s spell list so true polymorph can’t be dispelled… while being immune to non magical weapons so yeah unless the fighter gets a magic item than the Rakshasa quite literally can slap the fighter till his death. Mind you that the Rakshasa isn’t even the strongest option as there are many more powerful creatures the wizard can choose from.
That is pretty bad for the fighter, but it is 90% wizard, not 100%. The rakshasa seems to be created to avoid damage, but if any variety of magic weapon is available, it is pretty weak compared to the rest of true polymorph.
Answer: True but still doesn’t change that the fighter has no magic items and if the fighter does have magic items why would the wizard choose the Rakshasa as just like I said there are better choices available.
The shield-bait goes like this: attack with weapon. If the wizard shields, action surge + hold person without counterspell to stop you. Otherwise, either use action surge to continue attacking or simply stop there if you are about to run out of surges. Really should have called it reaction-baiting, because the goal is to bait out a reaction in the form of a shield to evade counterspell.
Answer: Ok let say it works and the EK makes the wizard cast shield.., now what? The wizard still has advantage against the spell along with perhaps lucky, resilience, and potentially a high spell save against the EK’s DC of 19 and with those the wizard no doubt easily passes with having three rolls with an up to +11 against hold person and mind you this is ignoring that a divination wizard would be able to succeed the hold person due to portent or that the Chronurgist has Convergent Future where he can just choose to succeed himself automatically since why would the wizard need to use the shield spell against the EK as in most cases the EK isn’t really going to have the base attack needed to kill a wizard without shield or arcane ward.
Let’s be honest, the ability to affect the saves is stronger in a 1v1 then the abjurer. Simply cast whatever spell and say the fighter failed the save, done. Somehow lose the initiative, say you beat the fighter’s save. That feature really wasn’t balanced for 1v1s. I forgot that dispel affects the creature, not the spell directly. My bad. Though magic weapon exists, and is a good option for EK regardless of anything else except access to real magic weapons, so the magic weapon thing still applies. I am not sure the wizard will really use the rakshasa often, because ancient dragons are a thing. Bronze dragon sleep breath is no joke, and flying things can stay out of dispel magic range. Pit fiends are also a good option.
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Let’s be honest, the ability to affect the saves is stronger in a 1v1 then the abjurer.
Answer: Yes and No.
No in that even if the Chronurgist uses Convergent Future on the Fighter to make him fail a save the fighter still has indomitable to reroll a failed save up to three times so the wizard would have to get 3 points of exhaustion before he could mess the fighter up with a save or suck spell (though there are other spells that don’t care about saves and such).
Yes in that well it can make the Chronurgist succeed any save or hit any attack (unless parry or Shield is used to augment the roll last second).
I know there is more I could go into but I’ll leave it at that.
Simply cast whatever spell and say the fighter failed the save, done. Somehow lose the initiative, say you beat the fighter’s save. That feature really wasn’t balanced for 1v1s.
Answer: Fighter has indomitable so while indomitable is not a guarantee it’s still better than nothing though against certain saves the fighters indomitable isn’t going to do much.
I forgot that dispel affects the creature, not the spell directly. My bad. Though magic weapon exists, and is a good option for EK regardless of anything else except access to real magic weapons, so the magic weapon thing still applies.
Answer: Magic Weapon is still a spell not an actual magic item and to have magic item active means you aren’t casting Hold Person on that turn due to how bonus action spells work so that spell isn’t going to help if I understood how the Rakshasa’s abilities worked.
I am not sure the wizard will really use the rakshasa often, because ancient dragons are a thing. Bronze dragon sleep breath is no joke, and flying things can stay out of dispel magic range. Pit fiends are also a good option.
Answer: Why not though? And the Wizard as you say still has many powerful forms he could choose from so why not choose the Rakshasa or something akin to it.
And as for the dragon transformations while good and the wizard through some shenanigans can become a permanent spellcasting ancient wizard shadow gold dragon demi-god with a couple day prep since that form would literally destroy the fighter so hard it not even funny (and that your newer to the thread so you probably don’t know that strategy so I’ll just ignore it for a bit).
Remember the wizard can still transform into a Demilich or something else like you said but the Demi as I’ll call it has immunity to non magical weapons, and resistance to magical weapons and such. To top it off the Demi has its death howl ability that could one-shot the fighter on a low roll.
Your arguments for the wizard winning are still good. This is not even attempting to contest that anymore, just some nitpicks.
fighter’s indomitable says “you must use the new roll” and probably can’t be used multiple times on one save, and I am not sure if it can even fight “you get 1 less than the dc”
Magic weapon would likely allow the fighter to nova the rakshasa. The weapon is a magic weapon while affected by the spell. The spell is targeting the weapon not the form. This is open to dm interpretation if it happened in a campaign. But it will stop hold person, that is not for the dm to decide.
The demilich isn’t a better option than some dragon, at least not with eldritch knights, because between indomitable and con save proficiency the chance of them failing is very slim. The demilich is a great form, but it is not the best one, even with its ridiculous ability to avoid damage.
Is it just me or has this turned into “what is the best true polymorph to kill a fighter without any difficulty?”
Another mostly unrelated thing, the demilich is possibly the single strongest thing in the game that has less than 100 hp. This means a 17th level wizard can solo it in one round with power word kill. Kind of silly.
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Your arguments for the wizard winning are still good. This is not even attempting to contest that anymore, just some nitpicks.
Answer: Thanks.
fighter’s indomitable says “you must use the new roll” and probably can’t be used multiple times on one save, and I am not sure if it can even fight “you get 1 less than the dc”
Answer: I’m quite sure indomitable works.
Magic weapon would likely allow the fighter to nova the rakshasa. The weapon is a magic weapon while affected by the spell. The spell is targeting the weapon not the form. This is open to dm interpretation if it happened in a campaign. But it will stop hold person, that is not for the dm to decide.
Answer: I could see why you would say that but for how the [Tooltip Not Found]’s limited magic immunity is worded I’m under the impression that spells under the rakshasa’s immunity are completely ineffective against him and therefore the wizard is uneffected.
The demilich isn’t a better option than some dragon, at least not with eldritch knights, because between indomitable and con save proficiency the chance of them failing is very slim. The demilich is a great form, but it is not the best one, even with its ridiculous ability to avoid damage.
Answer: All I’m doing is just saying some monsters that the fighter would be unable to defeat like at all or would pose the EK a challenge.
And I’ll say this again True Polymorph is not the only strategy it is one of many of I have proposed and the ones I proposed are only a fraction of the possible strategies available.
Is it just me or has this turned into “what is the best true polymorph to kill a fighter without any difficulty?”
Answer: As I have said T-poly isn’t the only thing out there and there are many many options especially considering with wish you can cast ANY 8th or under spell that means from any class.
Another mostly unrelated thing, the demilich is possibly the single strongest thing in the game that has less than 100 hp. This means a 17th level wizard can solo it in one round with power word kill. Kind of silly.
Answer: In a weird way that means a [Tooltip Not Found] can kill the superior version of that same lich with one spell. I guess it is silly in a way the lich can kill the the Demilich.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or misunderstood anything.
One last thing; liches are supposed to be stronger than demiliches, except for a variant with soul gems that is roughly on par with them. Most liches do not want to become demiliches. That is not a particularly silly interaction, although it becomes one with the variant with the soul gems.
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Man I just finished my post and there's more to respond to!
Answer: The glyph strategy doesn't necessarily require costly components as as you say due to wish a spell's components and such are effectively ignored.
Answer: The thing is while yes the EK can shut down some spells and effects he just doesn't have the need amount of spells to attempt to counter the wizard and dispel his magic the EK just doesn't have the spell slots to compete and this is still ignoring the act that the wizard doesn't need to rely on jus one spell like Invulnerability when the wizard has hundreds of better spells to achieve victory through one way or another. The EK can only potentially lengthen his demise when fighting the wizard.
Answer: It shouldn't be done that's the answer since then its not Fighter vs Wizard it becomes magic item vs magic item and some of those magic items are broken even non legendary items like Oathbow, Arrow of Slaying, and Bracers of Archery with those the SSS could quite literally kill Tiamat in one turn probably even easily and that's what I'm talking about magic items are so strong and those aren't even the best items out there.
Answer: Not all magic items have fixed prices and are subject to DM conjecture and getting into magic items in general when comparing class not only detracts from the class vs class battle but also adds in soooo many variables.
In addition magic items would almost exclusively benefit the fighter to such a degree that it not even funny as while a magic item might save a wizard from a casting spell once a day that same magic item would add a completely new set of movement for the fighter (think of a wizard having boots of flying vs a a fighter having boots of flying).
Not only that but magic items also almost exclusively tend to buff non magic casters more on a general sense especially when you consider there are almost no magic items that increase the damage output of a spellcaster on the same level certain magic items buff a fighter.
Anyways but that's just the tip of the iceberg but I hope you understand why magic items aren't used most if not all the time in these battles/comparisons.
EDIT: Fixed the magic items as I accidently put "item" in the bar and not "magicitem" so forgive it's fixed now.
Bring in eldritch knight. You forget that they don’t even have to go out of their way to take counterspell or dispel magic.
You look at wizard spells and forget that the eldritch knight can take some lower-end ones. Being able to counter wall of force is not “all the EK has going for it” It is able to roll against wizard spells, even if the chance of blocking a level 9 spell is only 1/3, and evade shield by using hold person to bait counterspell and action surge to strike. You claim spells to be overpowered yet dismiss the fighter that can use them.
Not being brain dead to play does not make it a poor subclass. But you are right that the game is not balanced for pvp. And polymorph often isn’t balanced period.
Edit: talking to optimusgrimus
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The magic item thing I agree is subjective but then again so is most of this thread. So many variables needed to determine anything, and none of them can be decided on. High leveled characters should have some magic items by now in most cases even if just basic +2 weapons and focuses. And the wish thing is using now like, 4 months to prepare a 1 use thing. Potent, but not that practical because what if the wizard had 1 tough fight last week?
Also, which items? They are showing [tooltip not found] for me.
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Answer: Yeah Polymorph is very strong as against most of the nova builds it just cancels out any damage done by giving you a large health pool for one 4th level spell slot... and remember that one T-rex the fighter may defeat is going to return two more times at least. Additionally if the wizard can get a short rest in at some point the fighter is going to have to fight two more T-rexes in a row then still fight a level 20 wizard after that and even with like no spells the wizard as I have shown can still defeat the fighter in many ways off of merely at will resources.
Answer: Absolutely correct especially when you realize the CR 8 T-rex is ,made to fight 4 level 8 players in a fair battle most of the time and then you take into account all of the save or suck spells or the just haha you lose spells the wizard has the fight becomes even worse for the fighter.
Answer: Yeah I talked about that in my previous post but the EK has like two-ish options:
1) Attempt to Hold Person a tanky abjuration wizard...
OR
2) Delay his defeat for X amount of turns until his is killed by the wizard.
Answer: I gotta be honest the AAA build is not gonna win like at all... the AAA build relies on the wizard failing multiple saving throws and the AAA hitting perfectly against a wizard... it has a worse chance than the SSS and arguably against the EK as well as both are high volatile strategies which rely on everything ending perfectly for the fighter.
Answer: he can't use even half the spells the wizard has access to to and by the nature of the wizard having higher spell slots his spells are harder to ignore or counter/dispel as where the wizard can quite literally in every way out wizard the eldritch knight to such a degree as the leave the EK helpless. And even if the EK got some hits in while thay would be damaging the EK is not the SSS and the abjuration literally has Spell Resistance so yeah the EK's spells aren't going to do much except delay (and against some spells not even delay) the wizard.
Answer: Yah it ain't balanced for pvp but that's what makes it fun!
And the wizard will always be able to counterspell your counterspell, not to mention that spell level figures into all of this. A 9th level spell can be pretty tough to counterspell, as you note, and in a counterspell fight, the wizard will have the advantage. His counterspell can use a higher slot than the EK can. Which means the wizard can't lose a counterspell fight, unless they misplayed it and counterspelled with a lower level spell slot.
This also ignores that multiple wizard subclasses can pretty much choose your roll for you and/or make you roll a good roll again. The wizard has a huge advantage in all of this, especially with certain subclasses.
Oh yeah I just wanna put this out there that with True Polymorph if the wizard uses it on him self he can transform into a Iron Golem, Rakshasa, or some other monster that is immune to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks as by having such an immunity (the Rakshasa would also be completely immune to the EK) the wizard would be effectively untouchable and keep in mind that those aren't even the strongest forms.
The problem with the fighter trying to cast spells is it's very unlikely to work for them as the wizard has counter spell and a ton of options for making saves.
The only chance a fighter has is damage... And I think it's been shown that wizards have more than enough options to just make it through a damage barrage. Even if you hold them to just 4th or lower spells.
I think it was pointed out in another thread that one leveled spell per turn technically only applies for bonus actions, meaning action surge+hold person x2 is possible for evading counterspell. This is likely an oversight, but shield baiting with weapon attacks then action surge for hold person is also an option. The wizard has 1 reaction, and shield+counterspell is 2.
It is also possible and satisfying for both sides to counterspell counterspell. Once again, initiative contest.
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Then the fighter is spending it's action, reaction, one action surge, and two of it's precious spell slots to attempt (not even ensure) a spell on the wizard? Man that's a terrible trade....
If the spell fails (likely as the fighter likely hasn't maxed INT if they want to maximize their initiative) then they effectively halve their damage. Again terrible trade imo
The "bait" screws the fighter more as they will do worse damage with just 4 attacks at a lower AC.
Answer: No it is not an oversight (as far as I know) since action surge gives you another action so its a different thing. And while yes the EK can cast 2 Hold Person spells it doesn't change the fact that the abjuration wizard has Spell Resistance and can have the Resilience and Lucky feats do make an already hard task to do nearly impossible to do.
Answer: As baiting Shield it might work probably not if assuming knowledge and even if you get the wizard to cast Shield you still have to land the Hold Person or the entire strategy is over and the fighter will lose.
As for initiative the wizard can win it anytime of the day if you consider that the best initiative build of the fighter is still a good league behind the wizard.
To be honest, why was the tank wiz ever the top? The initiative build is far harder to counter. Going first the EK has a chance of hold person winning, but I cannot think of a way to beat the initiative guy at full power.
I think however that the rakshasa is possible, if far from probable, for an eldritch knight to stop. Dispel magic should have a 1/3 chance of undoing true polymorph, and can’t counterspell. That is pretty bad for the fighter, but it is 90% wizard, not 100%. The rakshasa seems to be created to avoid damage, but if any variety of magic weapon is available, it is pretty weak compared to the rest of true polymorph.
The shield-bait goes like this: attack with weapon. If the wizard shields, action surge + hold person without counterspell to stop you. Otherwise, either use action surge to continue attacking or simply stop there if you are about to run out of surges. Really should have called it reaction-baiting, because the goal is to bait out a reaction in the form of a shield to evade counterspell.
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There is zero percentage change of a Chronurgy wizard failing the save on Hold Person, at least early on. They can just decide they make the save and make it. Or they can decide that you fail a save...and you fail. So they won't fail the Hold Person...but you will.
"Convergent Future
14th-level Chronurgy Magic feature
You can peer through possible futures and magically pull one of them into events around you, ensuring a particular outcome. When you or a creature you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction to ignore the die roll and decide whether the number rolled is the minimum needed to succeed or one less than that number (your choice).
When you use this feature, you gain one level of exhaustion. Only by finishing a long rest can you remove a level of exhaustion gained in this way."
Wizards have a lot of subclasses with buffs to their initiative, built in. And ways to either make saving throws or cause others to fail them. A number of subclasses have these features.
Yeah the EK can hold up to most of the rest OK but the chronurgy is overpowered. Kind of like the knight itself really. It’s not every day you use 2 leveled spells and a d8+5 weapon attack in one turn. But the guaranteed fail is broken good, even at the cost of exhaustion, because that seems to be the only limitation.
But what happens when one chronurgist causes an auto-success and the other an auto-fail? Use the original roll? The second one wins? Coin flip? Temporal paradox that ends the campaign? The plane splits in two, with both intersecting each other at various points? That is probably beyond the scope of this thread to answer.
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Answer: The tank wizard is on top because no build has a realistic chance against him as on average the tank wizard beats every build mentioned so far as the wizard has Spell Resistance, and 265 Hp with a 25 AC as to completely shut down the fighter.
Meanwhile while yes the Initiative wizard is probably more powerful overall as he has one of the highest Initiative scores available but he is still prone to the power of the d20 as he can roll a 1 and get only a 21 initiative or roll a 20 and get a like 48 initiative score or whatever the Rabbitfolk Chronurgist’s initiative bonus is.
As such the initiative wizard has a greater chance to lose since they sole rely on the d20 roll although while they do have lucky and such to reroll it still doesn’t change that the wizard’s fate is at the beck and call of the dice.
Answer: Rakshasa is immune to the entire EK’s spell list so true polymorph can’t be dispelled… while being immune to non magical weapons so yeah unless the fighter gets a magic item than the Rakshasa quite literally can slap the fighter till his death. Mind you that the Rakshasa isn’t even the strongest option as there are many more powerful creatures the wizard can choose from.
Answer: True but still doesn’t change that the fighter has no magic items and if the fighter does have magic items why would the wizard choose the Rakshasa as just like I said there are better choices available.
Answer: Ok let say it works and the EK makes the wizard cast shield.., now what? The wizard still has advantage against the spell along with perhaps lucky, resilience, and potentially a high spell save against the EK’s DC of 19 and with those the wizard no doubt easily passes with having three rolls with an up to +11 against hold person and mind you this is ignoring that a divination wizard would be able to succeed the hold person due to portent or that the Chronurgist has Convergent Future where he can just choose to succeed himself automatically since why would the wizard need to use the shield spell against the EK as in most cases the EK isn’t really going to have the base attack needed to kill a wizard without shield or arcane ward.
Let’s be honest, the ability to affect the saves is stronger in a 1v1 then the abjurer. Simply cast whatever spell and say the fighter failed the save, done. Somehow lose the initiative, say you beat the fighter’s save. That feature really wasn’t balanced for 1v1s. I forgot that dispel affects the creature, not the spell directly. My bad. Though magic weapon exists, and is a good option for EK regardless of anything else except access to real magic weapons, so the magic weapon thing still applies. I am not sure the wizard will really use the rakshasa often, because ancient dragons are a thing. Bronze dragon sleep breath is no joke, and flying things can stay out of dispel magic range. Pit fiends are also a good option.
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Answer: Yes and No.
No in that even if the Chronurgist uses Convergent Future on the Fighter to make him fail a save the fighter still has indomitable to reroll a failed save up to three times so the wizard would have to get 3 points of exhaustion before he could mess the fighter up with a save or suck spell (though there are other spells that don’t care about saves and such).
Yes in that well it can make the Chronurgist succeed any save or hit any attack (unless parry or Shield is used to augment the roll last second).
I know there is more I could go into but I’ll leave it at that.
Answer: Fighter has indomitable so while indomitable is not a guarantee it’s still better than nothing though against certain saves the fighters indomitable isn’t going to do much.
Answer: Magic Weapon is still a spell not an actual magic item and to have magic item active means you aren’t casting Hold Person on that turn due to how bonus action spells work so that spell isn’t going to help if I understood how the Rakshasa’s abilities worked.
Answer: Why not though? And the Wizard as you say still has many powerful forms he could choose from so why not choose the Rakshasa or something akin to it.
And as for the dragon transformations while good and the wizard through some shenanigans can become a permanent spellcasting ancient wizard shadow gold dragon demi-god with a couple day prep since that form would literally destroy the fighter so hard it not even funny (and that your newer to the thread so you probably don’t know that strategy so I’ll just ignore it for a bit).
Remember the wizard can still transform into a Demilich or something else like you said but the Demi as I’ll call it has immunity to non magical weapons, and resistance to magical weapons and such. To top it off the Demi has its death howl ability that could one-shot the fighter on a low roll.
Do tell me if I missed something or messed up!
Your arguments for the wizard winning are still good. This is not even attempting to contest that anymore, just some nitpicks.
fighter’s indomitable says “you must use the new roll” and probably can’t be used multiple times on one save, and I am not sure if it can even fight “you get 1 less than the dc”
Magic weapon would likely allow the fighter to nova the rakshasa. The weapon is a magic weapon while affected by the spell. The spell is targeting the weapon not the form. This is open to dm interpretation if it happened in a campaign. But it will stop hold person, that is not for the dm to decide.
The demilich isn’t a better option than some dragon, at least not with eldritch knights, because between indomitable and con save proficiency the chance of them failing is very slim. The demilich is a great form, but it is not the best one, even with its ridiculous ability to avoid damage.
Is it just me or has this turned into “what is the best true polymorph to kill a fighter without any difficulty?”
Another mostly unrelated thing, the demilich is possibly the single strongest thing in the game that has less than 100 hp. This means a 17th level wizard can solo it in one round with power word kill. Kind of silly.
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Answer: Thanks.
Answer: I’m quite sure indomitable works.
Answer: I could see why you would say that but for how the [Tooltip Not Found]’s limited magic immunity is worded I’m under the impression that spells under the rakshasa’s immunity are completely ineffective against him and therefore the wizard is uneffected.
Answer: All I’m doing is just saying some monsters that the fighter would be unable to defeat like at all or would pose the EK a challenge.
And I’ll say this again True Polymorph is not the only strategy it is one of many of I have proposed and the ones I proposed are only a fraction of the possible strategies available.
Answer: As I have said T-poly isn’t the only thing out there and there are many many options especially considering with wish you can cast ANY 8th or under spell that means from any class.
Answer: In a weird way that means a [Tooltip Not Found] can kill the superior version of that same lich with one spell. I guess it is silly in a way the lich can kill the the Demilich.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or misunderstood anything.
One last thing; liches are supposed to be stronger than demiliches, except for a variant with soul gems that is roughly on par with them. Most liches do not want to become demiliches. That is not a particularly silly interaction, although it becomes one with the variant with the soul gems.
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