But if the wizard has magic items, why can’t the fighter have magic items? Also, a wizard no fighter can kill has already been created, it’s a chronurgist. The illusion wizard isn’t that bad, but if they have magic items, the fighter also has magic items. And then this ignites again as we come up with different combinations of magic items to determine which one is the best. But the chronurgist probably still wins.
By all means, give the fighter magic items. I never said that they couldn't have any. They'll still lose.
Notice, though, that I'm not using anything exotic. ALL of my Illusionists try to get such an amulet. So, I'd be very appreciative if you kept your 20th level fighter's gear to basic stuff, nothing exotic or designed for this fight.
Personally, I think the idea that each character can have weeks to prepare, but can't have magic items 'because it makes things too complicated' is horse manure and unfair to the fighter. I'd rather test a wizard against the strongest possible, albeit reasonable, fighter available. So, no custom magic sword which creates a 60ft radius anti-magic bullshit.
I'm also not a fan of using exotic subclasses like the Chronurgist. Use it if that's the only way you can beat the fighter, but I'd rather aim for sticking to the PHB for my wizard.
Having said that, my Illusionist could easily enough replace the amulet with the nondetection spell and achieve the same effect.
But if the wizard has magic items, why can’t the fighter have magic items? Also, a wizard no fighter can kill has already been created, it’s a chronurgist. The illusion wizard isn’t that bad, but if they have magic items, the fighter also has magic items. And then this ignites again as we come up with different combinations of magic items to determine which one is the best. But the chronurgist probably still wins.
By all means, give the fighter magic items. I never said that they couldn't have any. They'll still lose.
Notice, though, that I'm not using anything exotic. ALL of my Illusionists try to get such an amulet. So, I'd be very appreciative if you kept your 20th level fighter's gear to basic stuff, nothing exotic or designed for this fight.
Answer: Uh you severely underestimate the power of martial magic weapons as they overall completely outclass the wizards magic items. Just imagine the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build with an Oathbow or even a just +3 longbow or firearm along with Bracers of Archery and you get a beast that deals an absurd amount of damage.
Personally, I think the idea that each character can have weeks to prepare, but can't have magic items 'because it makes things too complicated' is horse manure and unfair to the fighter. I'd rather test a wizard against the strongest possible, albeit reasonable, fighter available. So, no custom magic sword which creates a 60ft radius anti-magic bullshit.
Answer: There is no prep since it would be waaaay to one sided, the reason why we have strategies that use prep is because the wizard can in the middle of combat go and get prep to go and cast his spells and return. And even the strongest most powerful fighter would get recked by the wizard so hard that the fighter would be utterly powerless unless you gave the fighter multiple wishes but even then he wouldn’t be able to compete with the wizard who could just send infinite Tarrasque or whatever he feels like at the fighter.
I'm also not a fan of using exotic subclasses like the Chronurgist. Use it if that's the only way you can beat the fighter, but I'd rather aim for sticking to the PHB for my wizard.
Answer: The scenario is a whiteroom nothing is “exotic” and the wizard doesn’t need to use the Chronurgist to win (have you even read the debate???) since the wizard has multiple powerful strategies and builds (see post #861) and the ones shown here aren’t even all of them.
And the main wizard that is used most of the time is the abjuration wizard so I don’t know what you talking about since the abjuration wizard has even the SSS build defeated.
Anyeays do tell if I missed something or messed up.
But if the wizard has magic items, why can’t the fighter have magic items? Also, a wizard no fighter can kill has already been created, it’s a chronurgist. The illusion wizard isn’t that bad, but if they have magic items, the fighter also has magic items. And then this ignites again as we come up with different combinations of magic items to determine which one is the best. But the chronurgist probably still wins.
By all means, give the fighter magic items. I never said that they couldn't have any. They'll still lose.
Notice, though, that I'm not using anything exotic. ALL of my Illusionists try to get such an amulet. So, I'd be very appreciative if you kept your 20th level fighter's gear to basic stuff, nothing exotic or designed for this fight.
Answer: Uh you severely underestimate the power of martial magic weapons as they overall completely outclass the wizards magic items. Just imagine the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build with an Oathbow or even a just +3 longbow or firearm along with Bracers of Archery and you get a beast that deals an absurd amount of damage.
Personally, I think the idea that each character can have weeks to prepare, but can't have magic items 'because it makes things too complicated' is horse manure and unfair to the fighter. I'd rather test a wizard against the strongest possible, albeit reasonable, fighter available. So, no custom magic sword which creates a 60ft radius anti-magic bullshit.
Answer: There is no prep since it would be waaaay to one sided, the reason why we have strategies that use prep is because the wizard can in the middle of combat go and get prep to go and cast his spells and return. And even the strongest most powerful fighter would get recked by the wizard so hard that the fighter would be utterly powerless unless you gave the fighter multiple wishes but even then he wouldn’t be able to compete with the wizard who could just send infinite Tarrasque or whatever he feels like at the fighter.
I'm also not a fan of using exotic subclasses like the Chronurgist. Use it if that's the only way you can beat the fighter, but I'd rather aim for sticking to the PHB for my wizard.
Answer: The scenario is a whiteroom nothing is “exotic” and the wizard doesn’t need to use the Chronurgist to win (have you even read the debate???) since the wizard has multiple powerful strategies and builds (see post #861) and the ones shown here aren’t even all of them.
And the main wizard that is used most of the time is the abjuration wizard so I don’t know what you talking about since the abjuration wizard has even the SSS build defeated.
Anyeays do tell if I missed something or messed up.
If it isn’t in the PHB, then it is exotic.
Given that you believe that fighter magic items are so much more powerful than wizard items, then it is ridiculous to not include magic items in such a contest.
But, yes, a fully-kitted out level 20 fighter can do A LOT of damage when he hits. That’s why the Illusionist build severely restricts the fighter’s ability to hit.
Simply slanting the contest rules such that the rules prevent the fighter from doing much damage (such as by eliminating magic items) does not give an accurate result.
Answer: It’s a whiteroom nothing is “exotic” and even if we only allowed PHB content that just makes it worse for the fighter since the wizard still has the abjuration subclass while the fighter no longer has the samurai subclass making the small chance the fighter had even less.
Given that you believe that fighter magic items are so much more powerful than wizard items, then it is ridiculous to not include magic items in such a contest.
Answer: Haha your funny I said that the magic weapons the fighter uses outclasses the the wizards in reference to that they increase damage tremendously. And if the fighter gets magic items which items how much what rarity etc etc too much variables and if you say the fighter just gets whatever he wants then I say the wizard gets whatever magic item the wizard wants or a week prep.
And I’ll say this here if the wizard gets whatever magic items he wants then the fighter isn’t going to even touch the wizard as he’ll have over 30 or even 40 AC along with plenty other powerful items but that just devolves into “ha my magic weapon is stronger than your magic item” which can easily become petty and useless to the debate.
Now if you have the wizard have prep the fighter will literally be unable to do anything at all to the wizard as the wizard could quite literally just send a few of his minions to kill the feeble fighter.
But, yes, a fully-kitted out level 20 fighter can do A LOT of damage when he hits. That’s why the Illusionist build severely restricts the fighter’s ability to hit.
Answer: Yes it does a lot of damage. Remember the wizard needs a turn to make his illusions real and he doesn’t have the hp to survive nor the roll manipulation to outplay the fighter and there is some other things the illusion wizard lacks but I’ll leave it here for now.
Simply slanting the contest rules such that the rules prevent the fighter from doing much damage (such as by eliminating magic items) does not give an accurate result.
Answer: What rules would you use that were unbiased and that could be universally used in debate forums other than the whiteroom scenario I’ll answer your question NONE since it is almost impossible to set a standard outside of a whiteroom.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed something up.
Answer: It’s a whiteroom nothing is “exotic” and even if we only allowed PHB content that just makes it worse for the fighter since the wizard still has the abjuration subclass while the fighter no longer has the samurai subclass making the small chance the fighter had even less.
Given that you believe that fighter magic items are so much more powerful than wizard items, then it is ridiculous to not include magic items in such a contest.
Answer: Haha your funny I said that the magic weapons the fighter uses outclasses the the wizards in reference to that they increase damage tremendously. And if the fighter gets magic items which items how much what rarity etc etc too much variables and if you say the fighter just gets whatever he wants then I say the wizard gets whatever magic item the wizard wants or a week prep.
And I’ll say this here if the wizard gets whatever magic items he wants then the fighter isn’t going to even touch the wizard as he’ll have over 30 or even 40 AC along with plenty other powerful items but that just devolves into “ha my magic weapon is stronger than your magic item” which can easily become petty and useless to the debate.
Now if you have the wizard have prep the fighter will literally be unable to do anything at all to the wizard as the wizard could quite literally just send a few of his minions to kill the feeble fighter.
But, yes, a fully-kitted out level 20 fighter can do A LOT of damage when he hits. That’s why the Illusionist build severely restricts the fighter’s ability to hit.
Answer: Yes it does a lot of damage. Remember the wizard needs a turn to make his illusions real and he doesn’t have the hp to survive nor the roll manipulation to outplay the fighter and there is some other things the illusion wizard lacks but I’ll leave it here for now.
Simply slanting the contest rules such that the rules prevent the fighter from doing much damage (such as by eliminating magic items) does not give an accurate result.
Answer: What rules would you use that were unbiased and that could be universally used in debate forums other than the whiteroom scenario I’ll answer your question NONE since it is almost impossible to set a standard outside of a whiteroom.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed something up.
I said "whatever magic items are reasonable." We can all agree on somethings that are unreasonable. If the pro-fighter side wants to claim that some amount of magic items are reasonable and that amount doesn't fall into the _clearly_ unreasonable range, then we can go with that. The wizard gets to match the fighter.
"Remember the wizard needs a turn to make his illusions real "
Who said that the wizard will even need to make his illusions real?
As for rules, like I said, I want the fighter to be as strong as reasonable. I'm not interested in arbitrarily restricting him. My wizard will still beat him. I'm not worried, as you are, about trying to put arbitrary restrictions on the fighter. I'm more confident than that.
Please stop with this. You literally both think the same side will win, just under different conditions. Magic item’s won’t even make much difference to the chronurgist’s die buster anyway.
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I said "whatever magic items are reasonable." We can all agree on somethings that are unreasonable. If the pro-fighter side wants to claim that some amount of magic items are reasonable and that amount doesn't fall into the _clearly_ unreasonable range, then we can go with that. The wizard gets to match the fighter.
Answer: Completely and utterly subjective to the point that no standard can be made to acquire balance. Additionally the magic item reasonability argument immediately break's down when you release magic ammunition exists, poisons exist, potions exists, and tons of other magic items and normal items that would just break the game and destroy any resemblance of balance the whiteroom would give.
"Remember the wizard needs a turn to make his illusions real "
Who said that the wizard will even need to make his illusions real?
Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying since while the abjuration wizard has his Arcane Ward and Spell Resistance to survive and the Chronurgist/Diviner has their dice manipulation and a higher initiative roll.
Guess what the Illusion wizard has... that's right he has nothing to save him so assuming the Fighter goes first against the Illusion wizard the illusion wizard cannot survive the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build even if the illusion wizard went for a full tank build.
As for rules, like I said, I want the fighter to be as strong as reasonable. I'm not interested in arbitrarily restricting him. My wizard will still beat him. I'm not worried, as you are, about trying to put arbitrary restrictions on the fighter. I'm more confident than that.
Answer: This might sound like a slight but I think you lack reading comprehension skills (admittedly my posts aren't the best grammar but they are serviceable at least) if you honestly came to the conclusion that there is some type of barrier "restricting" the fighter when in fact we had to play to the fighters strength by having no prep time, play in a whiteroom and now that I'm thinking about it we still play to the fighter's strength when we remove magic items since that means the wizards AC/Hp isn't going to go up anymore with magic items.
So yeah now that I thought about it, how could the fighter win even if he has magic items when fighting a wizard with magic items and my conclusion is... he can't since for every magic item the fighter gets to increase his to hit, the wizard can increase their AC and Hp appropriately to respond to the fighter's increase in damage and the only thing I think the fighter could use to help him get the win is by using one of those op weapons like the Vorpal Sword where you can just one shot a creature unless they're to big.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed up something.
Please stop with this. You literally both think the same side will win, just under different conditions. Magic item’s won’t even make much difference to the chronurgist’s die buster anyway.
Answer: I don't think the illusion wizard can win that's what I'm saying. Actually like almost any other subclass could win BUT the illusion wizard could win against the fighter.
As for the Chronurgist yeah Convergent Future is very strong though not to forget it does cost a reaction while the Diviner's portents don't require a reaction.
Please stop with this. You literally both think the same side will win, just under different conditions. Magic item’s won’t even make much difference to the chronurgist’s die buster anyway.
Answer: I don't think the illusion wizard can win that's what I'm saying. Actually like almost any other subclass could win BUT the illusion wizard could win against the fighter.
As for the Chronurgist yeah Convergent Future is very strong though not to forget it does cost a reaction while the Diviner's portents don't require a reaction.
That's very interesting and I'd like to hear why you believe that. You haven't said as much so far.
I said "whatever magic items are reasonable." We can all agree on somethings that are unreasonable. If the pro-fighter side wants to claim that some amount of magic items are reasonable and that amount doesn't fall into the _clearly_ unreasonable range, then we can go with that. The wizard gets to match the fighter.
Answer: Completely and utterly subjective to the point that no standard can be made to acquire balance. Additionally the magic item reasonability argument immediately break's down when you release magic ammunition exists, poisons exist, potions exists, and tons of other magic items and normal items that would just break the game and destroy any resemblance of balance the whiteroom would give.
"Remember the wizard needs a turn to make his illusions real "
Who said that the wizard will even need to make his illusions real?
Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying since while the abjuration wizard has his Arcane Ward and Spell Resistance to survive and the Chronurgist/Diviner has their dice manipulation and a higher initiative roll.
Guess what the Illusion wizard has... that's right he has nothing to save him so assuming the Fighter goes first against the Illusion wizard the illusion wizard cannot survive the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build even if the illusion wizard went for a full tank build.
As for rules, like I said, I want the fighter to be as strong as reasonable. I'm not interested in arbitrarily restricting him. My wizard will still beat him. I'm not worried, as you are, about trying to put arbitrary restrictions on the fighter. I'm more confident than that.
Answer: This might sound like a slight but I think you lack reading comprehension skills (admittedly my posts aren't the best grammar but they are serviceable at least) if you honestly came to the conclusion that there is some type of barrier "restricting" the fighter when in fact we had to play to the fighters strength by having no prep time, play in a whiteroom and now that I'm thinking about it we still play to the fighter's strength when we remove magic items since that means the wizards AC/Hp isn't going to go up anymore with magic items.
So yeah now that I thought about it, how could the fighter win even if he has magic items when fighting a wizard with magic items and my conclusion is... he can't since for every magic item the fighter gets to increase his to hit, the wizard can increase their AC and Hp appropriately to respond to the fighter's increase in damage and the only thing I think the fighter could use to help him get the win is by using one of those op weapons like the Vorpal Sword where you can just one shot a creature unless they're to big.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed up something.
First you were complaining that the fighter's magic weapons are more powerful than the wizard's and, so, including magic items wasn't fair. Now, you are complaining that the fighter would never gain any relative strength by having the comparison include magic items.
First you were complaining that the fighter's magic weapons are more powerful than the wizard's and, so, including magic items wasn't fair. Now, you are complaining that the fighter would never gain any relative strength by having the comparison include magic items.
I don't think anybody can comprehend your point.
Answer: 1) I was talking damage wise a fighters magic items out do a wizards overall, 2) You can see me shift my view in the middle of when I was writing my post this shows that I shifted my Idea on the subject after I went into deep though about it... and when was changing one's idea on a topic something to be insulted over, 3) Rather than say I'm "complaining" or that you 'don't think anybody can comprehend your point" why don't you say why you think otherwise instead of insulting me especially when this forum has been relatively civil as of now.
Answer: I don't think the illusion wizard can win that's what I'm saying. Actually like almost any other subclass could win BUT the illusion wizard could win against the fighter.
As for the Chronurgist yeah Convergent Future is very strong though not to forget it does cost a reaction while the Diviner's portents don't require a reaction.
That's very interesting and I'd like to hear why you believe that. You haven't said as much so far.
Answer: After skimming through the wizards subclass based purely off of their own abilities I have organized them into 2 categories where I think they would stand
1) Likely to win:
Abjuration: Arcane Ward (regenerating , Spell Resistance, (Advantage/resistance against spells).
Bladesinging: Training in War and Song (Gives light armor proficiency so you can choose a non hobgoblin race like variant human/custom lineage to get an extra feat and that extra feat can quite literally make it possible for the Bladesinging wizard be able to win), sadly unless it's allowed the wizard doesn't start in the bladesong since if he did he would be absolutely fine.
Chronurgist: Come on do I even need to explain this... ok I will, Chronal Shift (Dis/Advantage), Convergent Future (Control Roll) and most of all you have Temporal Awareness (Int added to Initiative).
Divination: Haha same as above, wait again ok I will, Portent (2 d 20's saved to change a roll), Greater Portent (now you have more Portent).
War Magic: Tactical Wit (Int added to Initiative), then the war wizard has stuff like Arcane Deflection, and Deflecting Shroud that in conjunction with the Mage Slayer feat can actually get rid of the Fighter's Hex. There is an interesting interaction with a strategy done with the war magic's Durable Magic feature but I'll into that later (Power Surge could work against a EK quite well if the two just slung spells back and forth). But mostly you want Tactical Wit from War Magic though.
2) Unlikely to Win
Conjuration, Evocation, Enchantment, Graviturgy, Illusion, Necromancy, Order of the Scribes, and Transmutation. These all are less likely to win because they have no immediate innate bonus to combat.
Remember that techniqually any of the subclasses could still win since the good ol Polearm Master, Warcaster combo still works (could add metamagic adept for subtle spell aswell to make it impossible to block) along with the fact that the Initiative build also still exists that will make the wizard go first so he can cast a spell to win the game.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or if I messed up something.
First you were complaining that the fighter's magic weapons are more powerful than the wizard's and, so, including magic items wasn't fair. Now, you are complaining that the fighter would never gain any relative strength by having the comparison include magic items.
I don't think anybody can comprehend your point.
Answer: 1) I was talking damage wise a fighters magic items out do a wizards overall, 2) You can see me shift my view in the middle of when I was writing my post this shows that I shifted my Idea on the subject after I went into deep though about it... and when was changing one's idea on a topic something to be insulted over, 3) Rather than say I'm "complaining" or that you 'don't think anybody can comprehend your point" why don't you say why you think otherwise instead of insulting me especially when this forum has been relatively civil as of now.
It would have been clearer if you had done the expected and customary thing of deleting anything you no longer believe _instead of_ posting it.
"Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying"
The Illusionist has Illusory Self which can trigger a Contingency. Also, he doesn't need to cast either Major Image or Creation. Both of them he can just carry with him. He just needs to use Malleable Illusions on them. And, because he doesn't need to cast them, they won't break even a second level illusion.
Answer: 1) I was talking damage wise a fighters magic items out do a wizards overall, 2) You can see me shift my view in the middle of when I was writing my post this shows that I shifted my Idea on the subject after I went into deep though about it... and when was changing one's idea on a topic something to be insulted over, 3) Rather than say I'm "complaining" or that you 'don't think anybody can comprehend your point" why don't you say why you think otherwise instead of insulting me especially when this forum has been relatively civil as of now.
It would have been clearer if you had done the expected and customary thing of deleting anything you no longer believe _instead of_ posting it.
Answer: Well if I were to delete every post that would become obsolete 1) I would be here all day 2) I would be deleting a lot of important conversations that give context, depth, and age to the thread 3) I would be altering the entire thread since every single posts has effected or evolved the conversation 4) I would be unable to look back on my posts to reflect and improve 5) I would be altering the conversations with other people on a topic I value and am fond of 6) I would confuse the forum and anyone who would later read through the thread up to the present day since certain referenced posts and such would be altered as well as whenever someone got quoted their original post would be different.
Now last but not least 7) I see no real point to deleting my posts since I haven't posted anything I disliked or thought that it detracted from the conversation.
Answer: Well if I were to delete every post that would become obsolete 1) I would be here all day 2) I would be deleting a lot of important conversations that give context, depth, and age to the thread 3) I would be altering the entire thread since every single posts has effected or evolved the conversation 4) I would be unable to look back on my posts to reflect and improve 5) I would be altering the conversations with other people on a topic I value and am fond of 6) I would confuse the forum and anyone who would later read through the thread up to the present day since certain referenced posts and such would be altered as well as whenever someone got quoted their original post would be different.
I said it is customary and expected to delete anything you no longer believe _instead of_ posting it.
I most definitely did not say that it is customary and expected to delete anything you no longer believe _after_ posting it.
"Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying"
The Illusionist has Illusory Self which can trigger a Contingency. Also, he doesn't need to cast either Major Image or Creation. Both of them he can just carry with him. He just needs to use Malleable Illusions on them. And, because he doesn't need to cast them, they won't break even a second level illusion.
The fighter can't hurt what he can't target.
Answer: No one starts with prep so the illusionist wizard wouldn't have the Contingency spell up, nor any concentration/lasting spells active when he fights the fighter. While illusionary Self is good and you may be able to if your very lucky squeak past total damage by the Seppuku Sniper Samurai if you use Illusionary Self on a potential critical hit to dodge the damage and the SSS rolls low on damage then yeah the illusionist wizard might survive but it certainly isn't in the illusionist's favor.
"Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying"
The Illusionist has Illusory Self which can trigger a Contingency. Also, he doesn't need to cast either Major Image or Creation. Both of them he can just carry with him. He just needs to use Malleable Illusions on them. And, because he doesn't need to cast them, they won't break even a second level illusion.
The fighter can't hurt what he can't target.
Answer: No one starts with prep so the illusionist wizard wouldn't have the Contingency spell up, nor any concentration/lasting spells active when he fights the fighter. While illusionary Self is good and you may be able to if your very lucky squeak past total damage by the Seppuku Sniper Samurai if you use Illusionary Self on a potential critical hit to dodge the damage and the SSS rolls low on damage then yeah the illusionist wizard might survive but it certainly isn't in the illusionist's favor.
If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning.
What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all.
If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning.
What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all.
Answer: Hah well aren't you facetious with that twisted logic the fighter wouldn't have equipped his clothes, armor, or backpack and they are just two naked people fighting to the death with no possessions having only a few innate features available to them of which since the wizard would no doubt still have Spell Mastery and Signature Spells the wizard would still be able to win via casting Fire Bolt for the damage, Misty Step for the distance, and Shield if you are ever going to be hit by the fighter as for the Signature Spells they don't matter that much but all we need to know is that they would be strong for this battle.
And just saying as for the prep thing the wizard having any amount of prep would mean the fighter's loss no matter what you do as even a single round of prep would mean the wizard could just cast Resilient Sphere and become invincible to every attack the fighter does then after that the wizard would just use whatever strategy or spell to defeat the fighter.
If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning.
What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all.
Answer: Hah well aren't you facetious with that twisted logic the fighter wouldn't have equipped his clothes, armor, or backpack and they are just two naked people fighting to the death with no possessions having only a few innate features available to them of which since the wizard would no doubt still have Spell Mastery and Signature Spells the wizard would still be able to win via casting Fire Bolt for the damage, Misty Step for the distance, and Shield if you are ever going to be hit by the fighter as for the Signature Spells they don't matter that much but all we need to know is that they would be strong for this battle.
And just saying as for the prep thing the wizard having any amount of prep would mean the fighter's loss no matter what you do as even a single round of prep would mean the wizard could just cast Resilient Sphere and become invincible to every attack the fighter does then after that the wizard would just use whatever strategy or spell to defeat the fighter.
How is any of that relevant to the points that I've been making?
By all means, give the fighter magic items. I never said that they couldn't have any. They'll still lose.
Notice, though, that I'm not using anything exotic. ALL of my Illusionists try to get such an amulet. So, I'd be very appreciative if you kept your 20th level fighter's gear to basic stuff, nothing exotic or designed for this fight.
Personally, I think the idea that each character can have weeks to prepare, but can't have magic items 'because it makes things too complicated' is horse manure and unfair to the fighter. I'd rather test a wizard against the strongest possible, albeit reasonable, fighter available. So, no custom magic sword which creates a 60ft radius anti-magic bullshit.
I'm also not a fan of using exotic subclasses like the Chronurgist. Use it if that's the only way you can beat the fighter, but I'd rather aim for sticking to the PHB for my wizard.
Having said that, my Illusionist could easily enough replace the amulet with the nondetection spell and achieve the same effect.
Answer: Uh you severely underestimate the power of martial magic weapons as they overall completely outclass the wizards magic items.
Just imagine the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build with an Oathbow or even a just +3 longbow or firearm along with Bracers of Archery and you get a beast that deals an absurd amount of damage.
Answer: There is no prep since it would be waaaay to one sided, the reason why we have strategies that use prep is because the wizard can in the middle of combat go and get prep to go and cast his spells and return.
And even the strongest most powerful fighter would get recked by the wizard so hard that the fighter would be utterly powerless unless you gave the fighter multiple wishes but even then he wouldn’t be able to compete with the wizard who could just send infinite Tarrasque or whatever he feels like at the fighter.
Answer: The scenario is a whiteroom nothing is “exotic” and the wizard doesn’t need to use the Chronurgist to win (have you even read the debate???) since the wizard has multiple powerful strategies and builds (see post #861) and the ones shown here aren’t even all of them.
And the main wizard that is used most of the time is the abjuration wizard so I don’t know what you talking about since the abjuration wizard has even the SSS build defeated.
Anyeays do tell if I missed something or messed up.
If it isn’t in the PHB, then it is exotic.
Given that you believe that fighter magic items are so much more powerful than wizard items, then it is ridiculous to not include magic items in such a contest.
But, yes, a fully-kitted out level 20 fighter can do A LOT of damage when he hits. That’s why the Illusionist build severely restricts the fighter’s ability to hit.
Simply slanting the contest rules such that the rules prevent the fighter from doing much damage (such as by eliminating magic items) does not give an accurate result.
Answer: It’s a whiteroom nothing is “exotic” and even if we only allowed PHB content that just makes it worse for the fighter since the wizard still has the abjuration subclass while the fighter no longer has the samurai subclass making the small chance the fighter had even less.
Answer: Haha your funny I said that the magic weapons the fighter uses outclasses the the wizards in reference to that they increase damage tremendously. And if the fighter gets magic items which items how much what rarity etc etc too much variables and if you say the fighter just gets whatever he wants then I say the wizard gets whatever magic item the wizard wants or a week prep.
And I’ll say this here if the wizard gets whatever magic items he wants then the fighter isn’t going to even touch the wizard as he’ll have over 30 or even 40 AC along with plenty other powerful items but that just devolves into “ha my magic weapon is stronger than your magic item” which can easily become petty and useless to the debate.
Now if you have the wizard have prep the fighter will literally be unable to do anything at all to the wizard as the wizard could quite literally just send a few of his minions to kill the feeble fighter.
Answer: Yes it does a lot of damage. Remember the wizard needs a turn to make his illusions real and he doesn’t have the hp to survive nor the roll manipulation to outplay the fighter and there is some other things the illusion wizard lacks but I’ll leave it here for now.
Answer: What rules would you use that were unbiased and that could be universally used in debate forums other than the whiteroom scenario I’ll answer your question NONE since it is almost impossible to set a standard outside of a whiteroom.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed something up.
I said "whatever magic items are reasonable." We can all agree on somethings that are unreasonable. If the pro-fighter side wants to claim that some amount of magic items are reasonable and that amount doesn't fall into the _clearly_ unreasonable range, then we can go with that. The wizard gets to match the fighter.
"Remember the wizard needs a turn to make his illusions real "
Who said that the wizard will even need to make his illusions real?
As for rules, like I said, I want the fighter to be as strong as reasonable. I'm not interested in arbitrarily restricting him. My wizard will still beat him. I'm not worried, as you are, about trying to put arbitrary restrictions on the fighter. I'm more confident than that.
Please stop with this. You literally both think the same side will win, just under different conditions. Magic item’s won’t even make much difference to the chronurgist’s die buster anyway.
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Answer: Completely and utterly subjective to the point that no standard can be made to acquire balance. Additionally the magic item reasonability argument immediately break's down when you release magic ammunition exists, poisons exist, potions exists, and tons of other magic items and normal items that would just break the game and destroy any resemblance of balance the whiteroom would give.
Answer: He needs a turn to cast his illusion spell. To have a turn to cast spells the illusion wizard would need to be alive of which the illusion wizard has nothing to keep him from dying since while the abjuration wizard has his Arcane Ward and Spell Resistance to survive and the Chronurgist/Diviner has their dice manipulation and a higher initiative roll.
Guess what the Illusion wizard has... that's right he has nothing to save him so assuming the Fighter goes first against the Illusion wizard the illusion wizard cannot survive the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build even if the illusion wizard went for a full tank build.
Answer: This might sound like a slight but I think you lack reading comprehension skills (admittedly my posts aren't the best grammar but they are serviceable at least) if you honestly came to the conclusion that there is some type of barrier "restricting" the fighter when in fact we had to play to the fighters strength by having no prep time, play in a whiteroom and now that I'm thinking about it we still play to the fighter's strength when we remove magic items since that means the wizards AC/Hp isn't going to go up anymore with magic items.
So yeah now that I thought about it, how could the fighter win even if he has magic items when fighting a wizard with magic items and my conclusion is... he can't since for every magic item the fighter gets to increase his to hit, the wizard can increase their AC and Hp appropriately to respond to the fighter's increase in damage and the only thing I think the fighter could use to help him get the win is by using one of those op weapons like the Vorpal Sword where you can just one shot a creature unless they're to big.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed up something.
Answer: I don't think the illusion wizard can win that's what I'm saying. Actually like almost any other subclass could win BUT the illusion wizard could win against the fighter.
As for the Chronurgist yeah Convergent Future is very strong though not to forget it does cost a reaction while the Diviner's portents don't require a reaction.
That's very interesting and I'd like to hear why you believe that. You haven't said as much so far.
First you were complaining that the fighter's magic weapons are more powerful than the wizard's and, so, including magic items wasn't fair. Now, you are complaining that the fighter would never gain any relative strength by having the comparison include magic items.
I don't think anybody can comprehend your point.
Answer: 1) I was talking damage wise a fighters magic items out do a wizards overall, 2) You can see me shift my view in the middle of when I was writing my post this shows that I shifted my Idea on the subject after I went into deep though about it... and when was changing one's idea on a topic something to be insulted over, 3) Rather than say I'm "complaining" or that you 'don't think anybody can comprehend your point" why don't you say why you think otherwise instead of insulting me especially when this forum has been relatively civil as of now.
Answer: After skimming through the wizards subclass based purely off of their own abilities I have organized them into 2 categories where I think they would stand
1) Likely to win:
Abjuration: Arcane Ward (regenerating , Spell Resistance, (Advantage/resistance against spells).
Bladesinging: Training in War and Song (Gives light armor proficiency so you can choose a non hobgoblin race like variant human/custom lineage to get an extra feat and that extra feat can quite literally make it possible for the Bladesinging wizard be able to win), sadly unless it's allowed the wizard doesn't start in the bladesong since if he did he would be absolutely fine.
Chronurgist: Come on do I even need to explain this... ok I will, Chronal Shift (Dis/Advantage), Convergent Future (Control Roll) and most of all you have Temporal Awareness (Int added to Initiative).
Divination: Haha same as above, wait again ok I will, Portent (2 d 20's saved to change a roll), Greater Portent (now you have more Portent).
War Magic: Tactical Wit (Int added to Initiative), then the war wizard has stuff like Arcane Deflection, and Deflecting Shroud that in conjunction with the Mage Slayer feat can actually get rid of the Fighter's Hex. There is an interesting interaction with a strategy done with the war magic's Durable Magic feature but I'll into that later (Power Surge could work against a EK quite well if the two just slung spells back and forth). But mostly you want Tactical Wit from War Magic though.
2) Unlikely to Win
Conjuration, Evocation, Enchantment, Graviturgy, Illusion, Necromancy, Order of the Scribes, and Transmutation. These all are less likely to win because they have no immediate innate bonus to combat.
Remember that techniqually any of the subclasses could still win since the good ol Polearm Master, Warcaster combo still works (could add metamagic adept for subtle spell aswell to make it impossible to block) along with the fact that the Initiative build also still exists that will make the wizard go first so he can cast a spell to win the game.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or if I messed up something.
It would have been clearer if you had done the expected and customary thing of deleting anything you no longer believe _instead of_ posting it.
The Illusionist has Illusory Self which can trigger a Contingency. Also, he doesn't need to cast either Major Image or Creation. Both of them he can just carry with him. He just needs to use Malleable Illusions on them. And, because he doesn't need to cast them, they won't break even a second level illusion.
The fighter can't hurt what he can't target.
Answer: Well if I were to delete every post that would become obsolete 1) I would be here all day 2) I would be deleting a lot of important conversations that give context, depth, and age to the thread 3) I would be altering the entire thread since every single posts has effected or evolved the conversation 4) I would be unable to look back on my posts to reflect and improve 5) I would be altering the conversations with other people on a topic I value and am fond of 6) I would confuse the forum and anyone who would later read through the thread up to the present day since certain referenced posts and such would be altered as well as whenever someone got quoted their original post would be different.
Now last but not least 7) I see no real point to deleting my posts since I haven't posted anything I disliked or thought that it detracted from the conversation.
I said it is customary and expected to delete anything you no longer believe _instead of_ posting it.
I most definitely did not say that it is customary and expected to delete anything you no longer believe _after_ posting it.
Answer: No one starts with prep so the illusionist wizard wouldn't have the Contingency spell up, nor any concentration/lasting spells active when he fights the fighter. While illusionary Self is good and you may be able to if your very lucky squeak past total damage by the Seppuku Sniper Samurai if you use Illusionary Self on a potential critical hit to dodge the damage and the SSS rolls low on damage then yeah the illusionist wizard might survive but it certainly isn't in the illusionist's favor.
If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning.
What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all.
Answer: Hah well aren't you facetious with that twisted logic the fighter wouldn't have equipped his clothes, armor, or backpack and they are just two naked people fighting to the death with no possessions having only a few innate features available to them of which since the wizard would no doubt still have Spell Mastery and Signature Spells the wizard would still be able to win via casting Fire Bolt for the damage, Misty Step for the distance, and Shield if you are ever going to be hit by the fighter as for the Signature Spells they don't matter that much but all we need to know is that they would be strong for this battle.
And just saying as for the prep thing the wizard having any amount of prep would mean the fighter's loss no matter what you do as even a single round of prep would mean the wizard could just cast Resilient Sphere and become invincible to every attack the fighter does then after that the wizard would just use whatever strategy or spell to defeat the fighter.
How is any of that relevant to the points that I've been making?