If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning.
What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all.
Answer: Hah well aren't you facetious with that twisted logic the fighter wouldn't have equipped his clothes, armor, or backpack and they are just two naked people fighting to the death with no possessions having only a few innate features available to them of which since the wizard would no doubt still have Spell Mastery and Signature Spells the wizard would still be able to win via casting Fire Bolt for the damage, Misty Step for the distance, and Shield if you are ever going to be hit by the fighter as for the Signature Spells they don't matter that much but all we need to know is that they would be strong for this battle.
And just saying as for the prep thing the wizard having any amount of prep would mean the fighter's loss no matter what you do as even a single round of prep would mean the wizard could just cast Resilient Sphere and become invincible to every attack the fighter does then after that the wizard would just use whatever strategy or spell to defeat the fighter.
How is any of that relevant to the points that I've been making?
Answer: How's that relevant you ask? in your previous post you made two points and I addressed them. Those points are:
1) "If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning."
My response was calling out your twisted logic and facetiousness (as it was so) since you were saying that just because the wizard didn't have "prep" he suddenly should be stripped of his spells because it's considered "prep." Then I even humoured such a statement played along and still showed how the wizard could still win even if he had no equipment.
2) "What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all."
As for this my response I said that you can't give prep out since it wouldn't be fair and the wizard would win 100% of the time and I showed that by giving the wizard a single turn of prep before the battle and with just a single turn of prep the wizard would be able to win 100% of the time (as I said).
And now if you had other points that you have made that you want me to address, review, or debate do so.
If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning.
What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all.
Answer: Hah well aren't you facetious with that twisted logic the fighter wouldn't have equipped his clothes, armor, or backpack and they are just two naked people fighting to the death with no possessions having only a few innate features available to them of which since the wizard would no doubt still have Spell Mastery and Signature Spells the wizard would still be able to win via casting Fire Bolt for the damage, Misty Step for the distance, and Shield if you are ever going to be hit by the fighter as for the Signature Spells they don't matter that much but all we need to know is that they would be strong for this battle.
And just saying as for the prep thing the wizard having any amount of prep would mean the fighter's loss no matter what you do as even a single round of prep would mean the wizard could just cast Resilient Sphere and become invincible to every attack the fighter does then after that the wizard would just use whatever strategy or spell to defeat the fighter.
How is any of that relevant to the points that I've been making?
Answer: How's that relevant you ask? in your previous post you made two points and I addressed them. Those points are:
1) "If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning."
My response was calling out your twisted logic and facetiousness (as it was so) since you were saying that just because the wizard didn't have "prep" he suddenly should be stripped of his spells because it's considered "prep." Then I even humoured such a statement played along and still showed how the wizard could still win even if he had no equipment.
2) "What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all."
As for this my response I said that you can't give prep out since it wouldn't be fair and the wizard would win 100% of the time and I showed that by giving the wizard a single turn of prep before the battle and with just a single turn of prep the wizard would be able to win 100% of the time (as I said).
And now if you had other points that you have made that you want me to address, review, or debate do so.
If you had been paying any attention to what I've been saying all this time, it was that the wizard would win.
So, WTF does your response to the first point you numbered above have to do with anything that I've been saying???
As for your second point, I mentioned no weeks of prep because people were mentioning simulacrum.
If you had been paying any attention to what I've been saying all this time, it was that the wizard would win.
So, WTF does your response to the first point you numbered above have to do with anything that I've been saying???
As for your second point, I mentioned no weeks of prep because people were mentioning simulacrum.
Answer: I know you said the wizard would win and I agree buuuuut you also said that the illusionist wizard could win as a subclass and I disagreed with that citing that the SSS build dealt to much damage for the illusionist wizard to survive from unless it used one of the builds I prescribed as any wizard could use them and win against the fighter.
My first response was a direct response against you saying "then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning" and I responded to what you said so I don't know what your talking about.
As for your third point you don't need weeks for the infinite simulacrum strategy you only need 12 hrs to cast Simulacrum then you have that simulacrum cast Wish and make a copy of the original wizard then have that newly made copy cast Wish so on and so forth. At that rate after the twelve hours for each hour afterward you get 600 simulacrums under your control. So with one day of prep you could get over 7000 simulacrums... in a day and with each day after that you would get an additional 14400 more simulacrums.
PS: I think you missed the point of my posts but whatever I hope you just reread them and understand since I've said it like 3 times now.
If you had been paying any attention to what I've been saying all this time, it was that the wizard would win.
So, WTF does your response to the first point you numbered above have to do with anything that I've been saying???
As for your second point, I mentioned no weeks of prep because people were mentioning simulacrum.
Answer: I know you said the wizard would win and I agree buuuuut you also said that the illusionist wizard could win as a subclass and I disagreed with that citing that the SSS build dealt to much damage for the illusionist wizard to survive from unless it used one of the builds I prescribed as any wizard could use them and win against the fighter.
My first response was a direct response against you saying "then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning" and I responded to what you said so I don't know what your talking about.
As for your third point you don't need weeks for the infinite simulacrum strategy you only need 12 hrs to cast Simulacrum then you have that simulacrum cast Wish and make a copy of the original wizard then have that newly made copy cast Wish so on and so forth. At that rate after the twelve hours for each hour afterward you get 600 simulacrums under your control. So with one day of prep you could get over 7000 simulacrums... in a day and with each day after that you would get an additional 14400 more simulacrums.
PS: I think you missed the point of my posts but whatever I hope you just reread them and understand since I've said it like 3 times now.
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower.
Notice that it doesn't say "spell effect," it says "spell." The _spell_ is duplicated. Duplicating a spell means duplicating its casting time and components.
The _spell_ (Simulacrum) has a casting time of 12 hours and 1500gp..
So, you can cast a duplicate of Simulacrum, via Wish, but it is going to take you 12 hours + 1 action. And each casting is going to cast you quite a bit of gold.
If Wish had said that it can duplicate the _effects_ of the spell, rather than the spell itself, then you wouldn't have this problem.
Also, none of your Simulacrums are going to be able to relearn their spells. So, you are probably casting all these Simulacrums immediately before the battle. You'd be starting 7,000 ^ 12 = 3500 hours, or about 5 months before the contest.
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower.
Notice that it doesn't say "spell effect," it says "spell." The _spell_ is duplicated. Duplicating a spell means duplicating its casting time and components.
The _spell_ (Simulacrum) has a casting time of 12 hours and 1500gp..
So, you can cast a duplicate of Simulacrum, via Wish, but it is going to take you 12 hours + 1 action. And each casting is going to cast you quite a bit of gold.
If Wish had said that it can duplicate the _effects_ of the spell, rather than the spell itself, then you wouldn't have this problem.
Also, none of your Simulacrums are going to be able to relearn their spells. So, you are probably casting all these Simulacrums immediately before the battle. You'd be starting 7,000 ^ 12 = 3500 hours, or about 5 months before the contest.
Answer: Um... did you really just read the the first part of the sentence for Wish then just not finish the sentence becuase your utterly and completely wrong. The full statement that you cite is:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
So yeah your wrong because if you just kept reading quite literally the next very sentence you would see that Wish doesn't care about components or casting time as it just takes effect. So yes I was right that in one day you would get over 7000 simulacrums.
No prep doesn’t mean no prepared spells or no gear. It means no setting traps or precast spells. Deathknight, you actually did post some strategies before requiring prep, most notably the assassination glyphs, but they ended up not being essential, so that’s fine.
Contingency for “teleport away” isn’t a win. It simply means they don’t fight.
Sim-wish needs the components exactly once unless you need exponential growth. If you do, you can still use wish to create money to spend there.
The illusionist has no subclass features good for this battle compared to any other wizard. Out of all the subclasses, this might be the worst here.
It is best to edit mid-post if you realize it is wrong. Makes it easier to read. All of us probably agree that deleting old posts isn’t necessary.
The battle has literally finished already the wizard wins so unless you have a fighter that beats the abjuration tank and/or the chronurgist initiative/roll-buster, please stop arguing about what wizard will win. The discussion is done.
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No prep doesn’t mean no prepared spells or no gear. It means no setting traps or precast spells. Deathknight, you actually did post some strategies before requiring prep, most notably the assassination glyphs, but they ended up not being essential, so that’s fine.
Answer: Yeah I know as for the strategies that require prep yeah there are some but I later also made a list of some strategies and builds the wizard could do in actual combat. In addition the reason I made the prep strategies is too show that the wizard if he want could mid battle teleport away and return not even like a day later with an army of simulacrums or whatever.
Contingency for “teleport away” isn’t a win. It simply means they don’t fight.
Answer: No one talked about contingency at all except for you but whatever and as for the teleport away it's not like they would stay away for ever the wizard would return and just one shot the fighter.
Sim-wish needs the components exactly once unless you need exponential growth. If you do, you can still use wish to create money to spend there.
Answer: Yes for the first casting you do need materials buuuut since all you need is snow/ice, hair/fingernails, and a ruby worth 1500 gp it not that hard to do observe:
1) Cast a summon creature spell or grab your familiar or some random rat.
2) Cast True Polymorph on said creature using the creature into object option to turn the creature into a very large ruby worth more than 1500 gp.
3) Now that you have the ruby, have five of your infinite simulacrums (made by casting wish over 5 days) use their 8th level spell slots and cast [spell]Control Weather/spell] five times in total to make the weather Artic Cold, Storm, Blizzard and now you have your Snow/ice for the spell.
4) As for the hair and/or fingernail clippings those are easily gained.
5) Using the snow from the altered weather, the transmuted ruby, and the wizards hair you then cast Simulacrum normally as such your new simulacrum has it's 9th level spell so that simulacrum then can start the infinite simulacrum spell chain.
The illusionist has no subclass features good for this battle compared to any other wizard. Out of all the subclasses, this might be the worst here.
Answer: At least the illusionist has illusionary self so it's not the worst, the worst I think is enchantment since it has no immediate buff for combat and while I think the enchantment subclass is a very good subclass it is not a good subclass for our purposes.
It is best to edit mid-post if you realize it is wrong. Makes it easier to read. All of us probably agree that deleting old posts isn’t necessary.
Answer: I have never deleted posts but I have edited them directly after I posted it.
The battle has literally finished already the wizard wins so unless you have a fighter that beats the abjuration tank and/or the chronurgist initiative/roll-buster, please stop arguing about what wizard will win. The discussion is done.
Answer; I beg to differ... well maybe but honestly I think if I spent some time on it (and I probably will) I could no doubt come up with a build to one shot the wizard on average and I'm not too far off I was only like 50ish damage away with the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build. With some changes I feel I could get that build up there to deal the minimum 265 hp even when against an AC of 25.
Thinking back I think I remember someone saying that Sharpshooter's -5 to hit +10 damage falls off at an AC of 25 so I should probably run the numbers again to see how much the fighter does but i'll do that later.
Even if Wish doesn't duplicate the need for the original spell's components, casting time is not a component.
At this point, I frankly don't care for the restrictions you all using. I think they are horse manure. I thought that I made that clear. The following are the guidelines that I am using.
I am trying to best simulate the characters as they might exist in a game session who don't know ahead of time that this battle is happening.
1.) As characters in a game session have magic items, they have magic items here.
2.) The contest is "fighter vs. wizard" It is not "the best wizard to defeat a fighter." *I* chose, as a personal mental exercise, to restrict myself to the PHB and to avoid exotic subclasses, feats, and spells. Because I like Illusionists, I went with that. Since this is not a "the best wizard to defeat a fighter" contest, beating the fighter is all that I need to do.
3.) Concept is fundamental. My character is an Illusionist. As such, I'm trying to stick, as much as I can, to Illusion spells and college.
4.) Prep is reasonable. Five months of prep isn't reasonable. Less than 8 hours is.
I was also talking to wren, who did mention contingency at some point. If they used the prep time to contingency away from battle, they already chose not to use prep time optimally. The simulacrum thing you are lowballing. Five will be yours after less than a minute from the first. Five days creates tens of thousands. This is done by having each simulacrum cast wish on you, so you don’t run out of wish but still get an army. The potential to one-turn-kill the abjurer is pretty good though, try running that. Not sure how well it’ll hold up against the diviner and chronurgist though.
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Wish does cast the spell in one round. I know, it’s overpowered. The rest is all valid, though the first thing to do with prep is true polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon or a pit fiend or something because wizards of the coast has a funny idea of balancing. Or the sim-wish exploit because the only thing stronger than a level 20 character is a hundred of them. Most wizards will take these, including illusionists, because there is exactly one ninth-level wizard illusion and it’s just not competitive by this point.
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Even if Wish doesn't duplicate the need for the original spell's components, casting time is not a component.
Answer: Nope still wrong... read the Wish spell again especially this part:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
The entire point of the Wish is to cast any spell without requirements (including costly components) and have the spell simply take effect as that is what it is literally made for and it's text reflects that as shown by the parts I bolded above for you to read again.
At this point, I frankly don't care for the restrictions you all using. I think they are horse manure. I thought that I made that clear. The following are the guidelines that I am using.
I am trying to best simulate the characters as they might exist in a game session who don't know ahead of time that this battle is happening.
1.) As characters in a game session have magic items, they have magic items here.
2.) The contest is "fighter vs. wizard" It is not "the best wizard to defeat a fighter." *I* chose, as a personal mental exercise, to restrict myself to the PHB and to avoid exotic subclasses, feats, and spells. Because I like Illusionists, I went with that. Since this is not a "the best wizard to defeat a fighter" contest, beating the fighter is all that I need to do.
3.) Concept is fundamental. My character is an Illusionist. As such, I'm trying to stick, as much as I can, to Illusion spells and college.
4.) Prep is reasonable. Five months of prep isn't reasonable. Less than 8 hours is.
Answer: I can't really say anything to that except are the "restriction" really that bad? Since the whiteroom scenario is supposed to be fair in all metrics I'd think you would have to give the whiteroom at least some credit.
Additionally when your doing your own introspection of Wizard vs Fighter I hope you take into account the wizards intellect is probably 20 (I would assume) and their knowledge, reasoning, and problem solving should be leagues above anyone as in real life the smartest person in human history would probably max at around 16-17 intelligence. Wizards also tend to be very wary creatures who have back up plans with back up plans just stacked on each other as no self respecting wizard should be caught aloof and unprepared.
As for the fighter I also hope you take into account that many fighters are hardcore veterans who know their way around a battlefield and should probably known many ways to improvise and adapt to opponents using wit.
But that is just my word on it take it as you will.
I was also talking to wren, who did mention contingency at some point. If they used the prep time to contingency away from battle, they already chose not to use prep time optimally. The simulacrum thing you are lowballing. Five will be yours after less than a minute from the first. Five days creates tens of thousands. This is done by having each simulacrum cast wish on you, so you don’t run out of wish but still get an army.
Answer: I feel this part is addressing wren so I won't address it as I agree with King that Wish and Simulacrum are no joke and they are high level spells for a reason.
The potential to one-turn-kill the abjurer is pretty good though, try running that. Not sure how well it’ll hold up against the diviner and chronurgist though.
Answer: Yeah that is what I'm thinking as well as I honestly do think it is possible for the fighter to be able to kill the abjuration wizard even if the build to do kill the tank wizard hasn't been written i do think it exists and I think as I said if I put a whole lot of thought into it and redid the numbers a bit I do think it could be done.
As for the Chronurgist/Diviner/War Magic wizards along with the others I still don't see how the fighter would get a majority winrate. And this is STILL ignoring the entirety of the War Caster, Polearm Master strategy which can instantly one shot the fighter when he enters the wizards range.
Wish does cast the spell in one round. I know, it’s overpowered. The rest is all valid, though the first thing to do with prep is true polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon or a pit fiend or something because wizards of the coast has a funny idea of balancing. Or the sim-wish exploit because the only thing stronger than a level 20 character is a hundred of them. Most wizards will take these, including illusionists, because there is exactly one ninth-level wizard illusion and it’s just not competitive by this point.
Answer: Yep Wish is strong but that is the point and honestly I'd argue that True Polymorph, Simulacrum, Arcanist's Magic Aura along with weirdly enough the spell Gate is also on the level of Wish. When I say on those spells are on the level of wish I'm not talking about versatility since wish out classes every spell when comparing versatility the thing I'm comparing is the unique power they wield and as such they are strong.
Wish does cast the spell in one round. I know, it’s overpowered. The rest is all valid, though the first thing to do with prep is true polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon or a pit fiend or something because wizards of the coast has a funny idea of balancing. Or the sim-wish exploit because the only thing stronger than a level 20 character is a hundred of them. Most wizards will take these, including illusionists, because there is exactly one ninth-level wizard illusion and it’s just not competitive by this point.
Answer: Yep Wish is strong but that is the point and honestly I'd argue that True Polymorph, Simulacrum, Arcanist's Magic Aura along with weirdly enough the spell Gate is also on the level of Wish. When I say on those spells are on the level of wish I'm not talking about versatility since wish out classes every spell when comparing versatility the thing I'm comparing is the unique power they wield and as such they are strong.
All those spells are powerful. True polymorph might even be better unless the dm is very generous or you combine it with other things. The mention of spells that aren’t ninth level means this is relative to spell level, or two of those would be copied with wish.
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Again, Casting Time is not a component. "The spell simply takes effect" doesn't mean that casting times are ignored, it means that components are ignored.
I also wasn't thinking that the Illusionist would use the Contingency to teleport. I had in mind that they'd use it to cast Mislead or Greater Invisibility or Dimension Door (with him casting Greater Invis or Mislead on the following round). I did first propose as a joke that the Illusionist would use Teleport and then slowly drive the fighter insane, but that was clearly tongue in cheek and I explicitly said so later.
Strategy: Cast Simulacrum, then cast True Polymorph on your copy transforming it into a Adult Gold Dragon or a something else that you want to be. Then using the dragon's Change Shape into a humanoid or using Arcanist's Magic Aura's Mask option which reads as: "You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment" to turn the target into a humanoid for all intents and purposes you can finally cast the Magic Jar spell possessing said creature. While possessing said creature lower your HP and cast the Clone spell then Power Word Kill yourself so you die as that creature and transport into the clone becoming finally the creature you wanted to be permanently with all your class levels, class features and spells becoming incredibly overpowered.
Mind you The Magnus Opus strategy works by RAW and honestly it while may seem convoluted it's quite streamline at least I think as these spells in there smaller interactions work together but when all combined form a streamline timeline of events with the only outlier being the Power Word Kill to make sure you die as that creature to permanentize the effects of the combo.
Clone doesn't work with Magic Jar - 'if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.' You aren't the original creature, ergo you don't get to go to the clone. You either go back to the jar, or use a clone of your original body to cheat death.
Strategy: Cast Simulacrum, then cast True Polymorph on your copy transforming it into a Adult Gold Dragon or a something else that you want to be. Then using the dragon's Change Shape into a humanoid or using Arcanist's Magic Aura's Mask option which reads as: "You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment" to turn the target into a humanoid for all intents and purposes you can finally cast the Magic Jar spell possessing said creature. While possessing said creature lower your HP and cast the Clone spell then Power Word Kill yourself so you die as that creature and transport into the clone becoming finally the creature you wanted to be permanently with all your class levels, class features and spells becoming incredibly overpowered.
Mind you The Magnus Opus strategy works by RAW and honestly it while may seem convoluted it's quite streamline at least I think as these spells in there smaller interactions work together but when all combined form a streamline timeline of events with the only outlier being the Power Word Kill to make sure you die as that creature to permanentize the effects of the combo.
Clone doesn't work with Magic Jar - 'if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.' You aren't the original creature, ergo you don't get to go to the clone. You either go back to the jar, or use a clone of your original body to cheat death.
EXACTLY! Arcanist Magic Aura copies the -type- of creature. That's not the same as making the wizard appear to be the original creature.
Given that the two biggest methods presented in this thread (the Magnum Opus and 70,000 Simulations) don't work, I think the strongest presentation now is the Illusionist mindf*ck. Am I right?
Wren read the wish spell it’s not that hard like actually I’m starting to think you never even searched up the spell to look at it ok I’ll link it again Wish. And I’ll show you what I’m talking about:
“The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.“
Ok there the parts I have bolded show that you need DON’T need to meet ANY requirements and that means no components, casting time, having the spell prepared or anything. Since the wish has an instantaneous duration and a casting time of 1 action and that “the spell simply takes effect” it makes you able to cast whatever spell for free and in an instant.
Like actually just search up the spell you will see that I am right as thousands of people among thousands of forums agree since that is how wish is supposed to work.
Strategy: Cast Simulacrum, then cast True Polymorph on your copy transforming it into a Adult Gold Dragon or a something else that you want to be. Then using the dragon's Change Shape into a humanoid or using Arcanist's Magic Aura's Mask option which reads as: "You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment" to turn the target into a humanoid for all intents and purposes you can finally cast the Magic Jar spell possessing said creature. While possessing said creature lower your HP and cast the Clone spell then Power Word Kill yourself so you die as that creature and transport into the clone becoming finally the creature you wanted to be permanently with all your class levels, class features and spells becoming incredibly overpowered.
Mind you The Magnus Opus strategy works by RAW and honestly it while may seem convoluted it's quite streamline at least I think as these spells in there smaller interactions work together but when all combined form a streamline timeline of events with the only outlier being the Power Word Kill to make sure you die as that creature to permanentize the effects of the combo.
Clone doesn't work with Magic Jar - 'if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.' You aren't the original creature, ergo you don't get to go to the clone. You either go back to the jar, or use a clone of your original body to cheat death.
Answer: While it may seem weird to you but it does work look again at the Magic Jar and [spell{Clone[/spell] spells. I’ll quote the parts I’m talking about.
Magic Jar: “Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature, though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class features. If the target has any class levels, you can't use any of its class features.“
Clone: “At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return. The clone is physically identical to the original and has the same personality, memories, and abilities, but none of the original's equipment.”
Anyways what I’m trying to say with magic jar you become the creature as your soul inhabits it and you control it. Additionally the reason why when we have to cast [spell{Power Word Kill[/spell], or [spell{Disintegrate[/spell] on us after we become the creature with magic jar is so the wizard’s soul dies as that creature and therefore transfers into a cloned body. While there is more I could go into I just wanna say yes it does work and if you still don’t think so I’ll post again in a bit.
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.
This is not a blank check as you are treating it. It doesn't mean that range can be ignored such that you can Dominate a Person who is anywhere in the multiverse away from you. It doesn't mean that all environmental restrictions are removed such that you can target that person even though that person is in an antimagic zone. It doesn't mean that you can remove all target restrictions such that you can cast Dominate Person on a Plane. "Any requirements" doesn't actually mean any requirements. If it did, then you could Sequester the entire Abyss (by which I mean the plane itself) with a 9th level spell.
What it actually refers to is things like class, components, whether you know the target, etc. Parameters are not requirements.
Answer: How's that relevant you ask? in your previous post you made two points and I addressed them. Those points are:
1) "If you insist on NO prep, then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning."
My response was calling out your twisted logic and facetiousness (as it was so) since you were saying that just because the wizard didn't have "prep" he suddenly should be stripped of his spells because it's considered "prep." Then I even humoured such a statement played along and still showed how the wizard could still win even if he had no equipment.
2) "What I agreed to was nobody taking weeks of prep. I never agreed to no prep at all."
As for this my response I said that you can't give prep out since it wouldn't be fair and the wizard would win 100% of the time and I showed that by giving the wizard a single turn of prep before the battle and with just a single turn of prep the wizard would be able to win 100% of the time (as I said).
And now if you had other points that you have made that you want me to address, review, or debate do so.
If you had been paying any attention to what I've been saying all this time, it was that the wizard would win.
So, WTF does your response to the first point you numbered above have to do with anything that I've been saying???
As for your second point, I mentioned no weeks of prep because people were mentioning simulacrum.
Answer: I know you said the wizard would win and I agree buuuuut you also said that the illusionist wizard could win as a subclass and I disagreed with that citing that the SSS build dealt to much damage for the illusionist wizard to survive from unless it used one of the builds I prescribed as any wizard could use them and win against the fighter.
My first response was a direct response against you saying "then the wizard hasn't taken the time to study his spells in the morning" and I responded to what you said so I don't know what your talking about.
As for your third point you don't need weeks for the infinite simulacrum strategy you only need 12 hrs to cast Simulacrum then you have that simulacrum cast Wish and make a copy of the original wizard then have that newly made copy cast Wish so on and so forth. At that rate after the twelve hours for each hour afterward you get 600 simulacrums under your control. So with one day of prep you could get over 7000 simulacrums... in a day and with each day after that you would get an additional 14400 more simulacrums.
PS: I think you missed the point of my posts but whatever I hope you just reread them and understand since I've said it like 3 times now.
Notice that it doesn't say "spell effect," it says "spell." The _spell_ is duplicated. Duplicating a spell means duplicating its casting time and components.
The _spell_ (Simulacrum) has a casting time of 12 hours and 1500gp..
So, you can cast a duplicate of Simulacrum, via Wish, but it is going to take you 12 hours + 1 action. And each casting is going to cast you quite a bit of gold.
If Wish had said that it can duplicate the _effects_ of the spell, rather than the spell itself, then you wouldn't have this problem.
Also, none of your Simulacrums are going to be able to relearn their spells. So, you are probably casting all these Simulacrums immediately before the battle. You'd be starting 7,000 ^ 12 = 3500 hours, or about 5 months before the contest.
Answer: Um... did you really just read the the first part of the sentence for Wish then just not finish the sentence becuase your utterly and completely wrong. The full statement that you cite is:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
So yeah your wrong because if you just kept reading quite literally the next very sentence you would see that Wish doesn't care about components or casting time as it just takes effect. So yes I was right that in one day you would get over 7000 simulacrums.
A lot to reply to. You really do post a lot.
No prep doesn’t mean no prepared spells or no gear. It means no setting traps or precast spells. Deathknight, you actually did post some strategies before requiring prep, most notably the assassination glyphs, but they ended up not being essential, so that’s fine.
Contingency for “teleport away” isn’t a win. It simply means they don’t fight.
Sim-wish needs the components exactly once unless you need exponential growth. If you do, you can still use wish to create money to spend there.
The illusionist has no subclass features good for this battle compared to any other wizard. Out of all the subclasses, this might be the worst here.
It is best to edit mid-post if you realize it is wrong. Makes it easier to read. All of us probably agree that deleting old posts isn’t necessary.
The battle has literally finished already the wizard wins so unless you have a fighter that beats the abjuration tank and/or the chronurgist initiative/roll-buster, please stop arguing about what wizard will win. The discussion is done.
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Answer: Thanks I guess.
Answer: Yeah I know as for the strategies that require prep yeah there are some but I later also made a list of some strategies and builds the wizard could do in actual combat. In addition the reason I made the prep strategies is too show that the wizard if he want could mid battle teleport away and return not even like a day later with an army of simulacrums or whatever.
Answer: No one talked about contingency at all except for you but whatever and as for the teleport away it's not like they would stay away for ever the wizard would return and just one shot the fighter.
Answer: Yes for the first casting you do need materials buuuut since all you need is snow/ice, hair/fingernails, and a ruby worth 1500 gp it not that hard to do observe:
1) Cast a summon creature spell or grab your familiar or some random rat.
2) Cast True Polymorph on said creature using the creature into object option to turn the creature into a very large ruby worth more than 1500 gp.
3) Now that you have the ruby, have five of your infinite simulacrums (made by casting wish over 5 days) use their 8th level spell slots and cast [spell]Control Weather/spell] five times in total to make the weather Artic Cold, Storm, Blizzard and now you have your Snow/ice for the spell.
4) As for the hair and/or fingernail clippings those are easily gained.
5) Using the snow from the altered weather, the transmuted ruby, and the wizards hair you then cast Simulacrum normally as such your new simulacrum has it's 9th level spell so that simulacrum then can start the infinite simulacrum spell chain.
Answer: At least the illusionist has illusionary self so it's not the worst, the worst I think is enchantment since it has no immediate buff for combat and while I think the enchantment subclass is a very good subclass it is not a good subclass for our purposes.
Answer: I have never deleted posts but I have edited them directly after I posted it.
Answer; I beg to differ... well maybe but honestly I think if I spent some time on it (and I probably will) I could no doubt come up with a build to one shot the wizard on average and I'm not too far off I was only like 50ish damage away with the Seppuku Sniper Samurai build. With some changes I feel I could get that build up there to deal the minimum 265 hp even when against an AC of 25.
Thinking back I think I remember someone saying that Sharpshooter's -5 to hit +10 damage falls off at an AC of 25 so I should probably run the numbers again to see how much the fighter does but i'll do that later.
Even if Wish doesn't duplicate the need for the original spell's components, casting time is not a component.
At this point, I frankly don't care for the restrictions you all using. I think they are horse manure. I thought that I made that clear. The following are the guidelines that I am using.
I am trying to best simulate the characters as they might exist in a game session who don't know ahead of time that this battle is happening.
1.) As characters in a game session have magic items, they have magic items here.
2.) The contest is "fighter vs. wizard" It is not "the best wizard to defeat a fighter." *I* chose, as a personal mental exercise, to restrict myself to the PHB and to avoid exotic subclasses, feats, and spells. Because I like Illusionists, I went with that. Since this is not a "the best wizard to defeat a fighter" contest, beating the fighter is all that I need to do.
3.) Concept is fundamental. My character is an Illusionist. As such, I'm trying to stick, as much as I can, to Illusion spells and college.
4.) Prep is reasonable. Five months of prep isn't reasonable. Less than 8 hours is.
I was also talking to wren, who did mention contingency at some point. If they used the prep time to contingency away from battle, they already chose not to use prep time optimally. The simulacrum thing you are lowballing. Five will be yours after less than a minute from the first. Five days creates tens of thousands. This is done by having each simulacrum cast wish on you, so you don’t run out of wish but still get an army. The potential to one-turn-kill the abjurer is pretty good though, try running that. Not sure how well it’ll hold up against the diviner and chronurgist though.
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Wish does cast the spell in one round. I know, it’s overpowered. The rest is all valid, though the first thing to do with prep is true polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon or a pit fiend or something because wizards of the coast has a funny idea of balancing. Or the sim-wish exploit because the only thing stronger than a level 20 character is a hundred of them. Most wizards will take these, including illusionists, because there is exactly one ninth-level wizard illusion and it’s just not competitive by this point.
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Answer: Nope still wrong... read the Wish spell again especially this part:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
The entire point of the Wish is to cast any spell without requirements (including costly components) and have the spell simply take effect as that is what it is literally made for and it's text reflects that as shown by the parts I bolded above for you to read again.
Answer: I can't really say anything to that except are the "restriction" really that bad? Since the whiteroom scenario is supposed to be fair in all metrics I'd think you would have to give the whiteroom at least some credit.
Additionally when your doing your own introspection of Wizard vs Fighter I hope you take into account the wizards intellect is probably 20 (I would assume) and their knowledge, reasoning, and problem solving should be leagues above anyone as in real life the smartest person in human history would probably max at around 16-17 intelligence. Wizards also tend to be very wary creatures who have back up plans with back up plans just stacked on each other as no self respecting wizard should be caught aloof and unprepared.
As for the fighter I also hope you take into account that many fighters are hardcore veterans who know their way around a battlefield and should probably known many ways to improvise and adapt to opponents using wit.
But that is just my word on it take it as you will.
Answer: I feel this part is addressing wren so I won't address it as I agree with King that Wish and Simulacrum are no joke and they are high level spells for a reason.
Answer: Yeah that is what I'm thinking as well as I honestly do think it is possible for the fighter to be able to kill the abjuration wizard even if the build to do kill the tank wizard hasn't been written i do think it exists and I think as I said if I put a whole lot of thought into it and redid the numbers a bit I do think it could be done.
As for the Chronurgist/Diviner/War Magic wizards along with the others I still don't see how the fighter would get a majority winrate. And this is STILL ignoring the entirety of the War Caster, Polearm Master strategy which can instantly one shot the fighter when he enters the wizards range.
Answer: Yep Wish is strong but that is the point and honestly I'd argue that True Polymorph, Simulacrum, Arcanist's Magic Aura along with weirdly enough the spell Gate is also on the level of Wish. When I say on those spells are on the level of wish I'm not talking about versatility since wish out classes every spell when comparing versatility the thing I'm comparing is the unique power they wield and as such they are strong.
All those spells are powerful. True polymorph might even be better unless the dm is very generous or you combine it with other things. The mention of spells that aren’t ninth level means this is relative to spell level, or two of those would be copied with wish.
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Again, Casting Time is not a component. "The spell simply takes effect" doesn't mean that casting times are ignored, it means that components are ignored.
I also wasn't thinking that the Illusionist would use the Contingency to teleport. I had in mind that they'd use it to cast Mislead or Greater Invisibility or Dimension Door (with him casting Greater Invis or Mislead on the following round). I did first propose as a joke that the Illusionist would use Teleport and then slowly drive the fighter insane, but that was clearly tongue in cheek and I explicitly said so later.
Clone doesn't work with Magic Jar - 'if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.' You aren't the original creature, ergo you don't get to go to the clone. You either go back to the jar, or use a clone of your original body to cheat death.
EXACTLY! Arcanist Magic Aura copies the -type- of creature. That's not the same as making the wizard appear to be the original creature.
Given that the two biggest methods presented in this thread (the Magnum Opus and 70,000 Simulations) don't work, I think the strongest presentation now is the Illusionist mindf*ck. Am I right?
Wren read the wish spell it’s not that hard like actually I’m starting to think you never even searched up the spell to look at it ok I’ll link it again Wish. And I’ll show you what I’m talking about:
“The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.“
Ok there the parts I have bolded show that you need DON’T need to meet ANY requirements and that means no components, casting time, having the spell prepared or anything. Since the wish has an instantaneous duration and a casting time of 1 action and that “the spell simply takes effect” it makes you able to cast whatever spell for free and in an instant.
Like actually just search up the spell you will see that I am right as thousands of people among thousands of forums agree since that is how wish is supposed to work.
Answer: While it may seem weird to you but it does work look again at the Magic Jar and [spell{Clone[/spell] spells. I’ll quote the parts I’m talking about.
Magic Jar: “Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature, though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class features. If the target has any class levels, you can't use any of its class features.“
Clone: “At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return. The clone is physically identical to the original and has the same personality, memories, and abilities, but none of the original's equipment.”
Anyways what I’m trying to say with magic jar you become the creature as your soul inhabits it and you control it.
Additionally the reason why when we have to cast [spell{Power Word Kill[/spell], or [spell{Disintegrate[/spell] on us after we become the creature with magic jar is so the wizard’s soul dies as that creature and therefore transfers into a cloned body.
While there is more I could go into I just wanna say yes it does work and if you still don’t think so I’ll post again in a bit.
This is not a blank check as you are treating it. It doesn't mean that range can be ignored such that you can Dominate a Person who is anywhere in the multiverse away from you. It doesn't mean that all environmental restrictions are removed such that you can target that person even though that person is in an antimagic zone. It doesn't mean that you can remove all target restrictions such that you can cast Dominate Person on a Plane. "Any requirements" doesn't actually mean any requirements. If it did, then you could Sequester the entire Abyss (by which I mean the plane itself) with a 9th level spell.
What it actually refers to is things like class, components, whether you know the target, etc. Parameters are not requirements.