Does anyone know how Cat Claws and monk attack's really work? I can't find anything definitive on Sage Advice and a group of friends and I have been arguing about it for a little while. Do your monk unarmed strikes get slashing for purposes of overcoming DR? Does Cat Claws scale with your Monk level and punch die? Etc.?
Well I would say why not. Cat claws is like indeed an unaremd strike. The only difference is the damage type. I don't see any possibility to break the game.
I dunno. The unarmed strike is like a weird halfway between weapon attack and special attack action. It's in the same category as the grapple attack action. The tabaxi's claws aren't a replacement for the unarmed attack, they are a unique attack in their own right- you could still headbutt or elbow your enemy. Heck, you could even still punch them with out any claw usage whatsoever.
That said, meh, I've never been a fan of the way unarmed strike is treated in 5e anyways. Made a buttload more sense when it was just a weapon, even if that was an error. I'd allow the two to stack in my game, but I doubt that's RAI.
Let me try to answer each part of the question to the best of my ability.
To begin with, Tabaxi's claws can be used as unarmed strikes (Volo's Guide, pg 115, and confirmed by Jeremy Crawford). So far so good. They behave as Strength-based unarmed strikes that do slashing damage.
Onwards to Martial Arts, which grants three abilities while unarmed (or with monk weapons, which I'll omit for this topic):
1. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for your attacks, in both the attack roll and the damage roll. This does not conflict anything on the Tabaxi Cat's Claws. You can use them with either Dexterity or Strength.
2. You can use a d4 in place of your normal damage for unarmed strikes, and this die increases by level. Note that while this makes a substitution of the die type for the damage, it does not alter the damage type. Again, no conflict. The die substitution happens as normal in higher levels too; the damage type remains unaffected from the base (which is Bludgeoning for most unarmed strikes, but Slashing for the Cat's Claws).
3. Irrelevant, but bonus!
In conclusion, Tabaxi can use their Cat's Claws to make unarmed attacks that fully utilize the monk's Martial Arts.
PS. Tabaxi's Cat's Claws mention you "can" use them, not "must". It's up to you whether you slash with claws for Slashing or make a fist and punch for Bludgeoning.
The Tabaxi can do unarmed strike by fists and kicks (bludgeoning damage) or by claws (slashing damage). Both of them with either strength or dexterity as your melee attack statistic.
Whichever the case, the damage roll is set by the martial art in the monk table.
Let me try to answer each part of the question to the best of my ability.
To begin with, Tabaxi's claws can be used as unarmed strikes (Volo's Guide, pg 115, and confirmed by Jeremy Crawford). So far so good. They behave as Strength-based unarmed strikes that do slashing damage.
Onwards to Martial Arts, which grants three abilities while unarmed (or with monk weapons, which I'll omit for this topic):
1. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for your attacks, in both the attack roll and the damage roll. This does not conflict anything on the Tabaxi Cat's Claws. You can use them with either Dexterity or Strength.
2. You can use a d4 in place of your normal damage for unarmed strikes, and this die increases by level. Note that while this makes a substitution of the die type for the damage, it does not alter the damage type. Again, no conflict. The die substitution happens as normal in higher levels too; the damage type remains unaffected from the base (which is Bludgeoning for most unarmed strikes, but Slashing for the Cat's Claws).
3. Irrelevant, but bonus!
In conclusion, Tabaxi can use their Cat's Claws to make unarmed attacks that fully utilize the monk's Martial Arts.
PS. Tabaxi's Cat's Claws mention you "can" use them, not "must". It's up to you whether you slash with claws for Slashing or make a fist and punch for Bludgeoning.
Thanks. I couldn't quite make sense of everything Jeremy Crawford was saying when I checked Sage Advice. I appreciate the time you took to answer this. This helps my group out a lot.
As a new found lover of the Tabaxi (I must ask my DM if he'll allow) and my curiosity of the monk class (never played one yet) and a cat owner (I have two)
this greatly increases my interest in trying to create and play a Tabaxi Monk (Way of the Open Paw?) hehe
the ability to chose bludgeoning or slashing damage I can see being useful as you come against targets who may be resistant to one damage type or the other.
I believe my post above (here), explains (or attempts to) both recent questions.
To reiterate:
The Tabaxi "can" (rather than "must") use their claws, so they have the option of using them - for each attack they make, they choose whether to deal bludgeoning or slashing damage.
And the Tabaxi claws are considered Unarmed Strikes, so they benefit from the Martial Arts increased damage as per unarmed strikes - if the monk wants to, claw attacks deal the increased Martial Arts damage.
2. You can use a d4 in place of your normal damage for unarmed strikes, and this die increases by level. Note that while this makes a substitution of the die type for the damage, it does not alter the damage type. Again, no conflict. The die substitution happens as normal in higher levels too; the damage type remains unaffected from the base (which is Bludgeoning for most unarmed strikes, but Slashing for the Cat's Claws).
So, @filcat, will DNDBeyond bump the damage for unarmed strike by a dice size for you if you have claws? (would be great if it did)
2. You can use a d4 in place of your normal damage for unarmed strikes, and this die increases by level. Note that while this makes a substitution of the die type for the damage, it does not alter the damage type. Again, no conflict. The die substitution happens as normal in higher levels too; the damage type remains unaffected from the base (which is Bludgeoning for most unarmed strikes, but Slashing for the Cat's Claws).
So, @filcat, will DNDBeyond bump the damage for unarmed strike by a dice size for you if you have claws? (would be great if it did)
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.
With Tabaxis you may, if you so wish change your unarmed strikes to their Cat's Claws feature.
Because of your claws, you have a climbing speed of 20 feet. In addition, your claws are natural weapons, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with them, you deal slashing damage equal to 1d4 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.
This means instead of the normal unarmed strike of 1 + Str bludgeoning damage you can now use 1d4 + Strength slashing damage. You can choose one or the other.
For Monks their class feature allows them to replacethe damage of 1 or 1d4 of an unarmed strike with their Martial Arts die instead which starts 1d4 and increases as Monk levels increase.
Classes >> Monk >> Class Features >> Martial Arts:
Martial Arts
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn.
So with a monk instead of the base 1 or 1d4 for Tabaxi you can now do the damage die for Martial Arts which is also 1d4 but increases over time. In addition instead of adding Strength to the roll you can choose to add Dexterity instead if you wish.
Regardless of whether you are a Monk, Tabaxi, alien, whatever. An unarmed strike remains an unarmed strike.
In conclusion your unarmed strike will be as follows:
Not Monk or Tabaxi: Attack: 1d20 + Proficiency + Strength , Damage: 1 + Strength bludgeoning damge
Tabaxi but not Monk: Attack 1d20 + Proficiency + Strength , Damage: choice between doing '1 + Strength bludgeoning damage' or '1d4 + Strength slashing damage'
Monk but not Tabaxi: Attack 1d20 + Proficiency + Choice of Strength or Dexterity , Damage: Martial Arts Die + choice of Strength or Dexterity bludgeoning damage
Tabaxi Monk: Attack 1d20 + Proficiency + Choice of Strength or Dexterity , Damage: Martial Arts Die + choice of Strength or Dexterity with choice of bludgeoning or slashing damage.
Martial Arts Die begins at 1d4 and increases as you progress in the class up to a maximum of 1d10.
Cyb3rM1nd, thank you for your thoughtful and detailed answer.
It does not make sense to me though, that if one considers a non-tabaxi monk, and he uses all his powers of awesome (Martial Arts die) and thwacks an enemy for 1d4, at the same time a tabaxi monk with big nasty claws could get no additional benefit other than the theoretical benefit of bypassing something which is resistant to bludgeoning but not slashing.
Further it seems to me that that is actually removing the usefulness of a racial trait, which as a GM I will always attempt to avoid. Replacing a 1+STR damage with 1d4+STR damage is cool, you gain benefit from it, but not really as a tabaxi monk. RAW I think you're even right, it just doesn't pass my feeling test. It doesn't feel right to rule that way.
My logic, though it may conflict with RAW.
Both Tabaxi and Tortles (creatures with claws) came out after the monk class so I don't think RAW monk rules took that into account. Claws essentially give you a +1 on average damage bonus over normal unarmed. A dice size increment is the same net ... an average of +1 damage. Thereby arriving at the size increase.
But... all that being said if you are right, and RAW / RAI is in point of fact that tabaxi monks gain no benefit from their claws then I'm disappointed, but I understand there won't be a modification to DDB. (And also, I'll stick with my ruling in my games😆)
What this brings to my mind, and this may be a unforeseen additional benefit you might like XIX, is that I'm pretty sure I remember a sage advice that stated natural weapons are treated as weapons. Meaning spells and abilities that can only be used with weapon attacks (such as green-flame blade) are compatible with them where a regular unarmed strike is not. That's a huge benefit and would make tabaxi and similar clawed races able to benefit from all advantages of multi-classing without being forced to use a weapon (the battle master abilities come to mind; with disarming strike a human fighter wouldn't be able to disarm someone without a weapon in hand while a tabaxi would).
Not a direct benefit for pure monks, but awesome if you want to multiclass or take feats that give you abilities/spells from other classes that require weapons, but don't want to actually use a weapon to preserve the whole "I'm lethal with my bare hands" thing.
Basically, it says that attacks with natural weapons are weapon attacks, but natural weapons do not count as weapons. So a spell/ability that relies on the character making a weapon attack (green-flame blade) works with them, but a spell that targets a weapon (magic weapon) does not. That's what I'm getting out of that thread, someone let me know if I'm missing something please.
Either way, I'm about to make a Tabaxi monk, take Disarming Strike with the Martial Adept feat, and go around killing people with their own weapons. Not sure if I'm going to take the obvious Open Hand route or make it interesting and go Kensei, but never draw my own sword except exceptional RP moments (like duels of honor, imminent protection of an innocent life, etc.).
Your conclusion is accurate, as far as I know. The game has similar terms for different things on this matter.
A "weapon" is one of the items presented in the table of page 149 of the Player's Handbook (or here). Unarmed attacks and natural weapons do not belong in this group.
A "weapon attack" includes attacks made with weapons, unarmed attacks, and attacks with natural weapons. It's a term to make the distinction between those and "spell attacks". It helps, I suppose, if you think about it as "physical attack" for most intents and purposes. It comes in "melee" and "ranged" categories.
So, your assessment of which spell works with which is spot-on. :)
Cyb3rM1nd, thank you for your thoughtful and detailed answer.
It does not make sense to me though, that if one considers a non-tabaxi monk, and he uses all his powers of awesome (Martial Arts die) and thwacks an enemy for 1d4, at the same time a tabaxi monk with big nasty claws could get no additional benefit other than the theoretical benefit of bypassing something which is resistant to bludgeoning but not slashing.
Further it seems to me that that is actually removing the usefulness of a racial trait, which as a GM I will always attempt to avoid. Replacing a 1+STR damage with 1d4+STR damage is cool, you gain benefit from it, but not really as a tabaxi monk. RAW I think you're even right, it just doesn't pass my feeling test. It doesn't feel right to rule that way.
My logic, though it may conflict with RAW.
Both Tabaxi and Tortles (creatures with claws) came out after the monk class so I don't think RAW monk rules took that into account. Claws essentially give you a +1 on average damage bonus over normal unarmed. A dice size increment is the same net ... an average of +1 damage. Thereby arriving at the size increase.
But... all that being said if you are right, and RAW / RAI is in point of fact that tabaxi monks gain no benefit from their claws then I'm disappointed, but I understand there won't be a modification to DDB. (And also, I'll stick with my ruling in my games😆)
My table ruling is based on your logic above.
As a monk you are super good at dealing more damage with unarmed strikes.. as a Tabaxi, you get to change Bludgeoning to slashing by adding your claws into the mix...so when you make an unarmed strike you can add your claws for an additional +1 damage and all damage becomes slashing.
My table ruling - Tabaxi Monk: Attack 1d20 + Proficiency + Choice of Strength or Dexterity , Damage: Martial Arts Die + choice of Strength or Dexterity wit bludgeoning or all that +1 and slashing damage
The main difference between my version (die size increase) and yours (+1 dmg) is that they are guaranteed a minimum base damage of 2 with yours, the other route it still is a minimum of 1.
Id take either of these over the “claws have no effect other than making it slashing” ruling
Does anyone know how Cat Claws and monk attack's really work? I can't find anything definitive on Sage Advice and a group of friends and I have been arguing about it for a little while. Do your monk unarmed strikes get slashing for purposes of overcoming DR? Does Cat Claws scale with your Monk level and punch die? Etc.?
Well I would say why not. Cat claws is like indeed an unaremd strike. The only difference is the damage type. I don't see any possibility to break the game.
Always loved the idea of the tabaxi monk.
I dunno. The unarmed strike is like a weird halfway between weapon attack and special attack action. It's in the same category as the grapple attack action. The tabaxi's claws aren't a replacement for the unarmed attack, they are a unique attack in their own right- you could still headbutt or elbow your enemy. Heck, you could even still punch them with out any claw usage whatsoever.
That said, meh, I've never been a fan of the way unarmed strike is treated in 5e anyways. Made a buttload more sense when it was just a weapon, even if that was an error. I'd allow the two to stack in my game, but I doubt that's RAI.
Current Character: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Kydo/Ideas
Let me try to answer each part of the question to the best of my ability.
To begin with, Tabaxi's claws can be used as unarmed strikes (Volo's Guide, pg 115, and confirmed by Jeremy Crawford). So far so good. They behave as Strength-based unarmed strikes that do slashing damage.
Onwards to Martial Arts, which grants three abilities while unarmed (or with monk weapons, which I'll omit for this topic):
1. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for your attacks, in both the attack roll and the damage roll. This does not conflict anything on the Tabaxi Cat's Claws. You can use them with either Dexterity or Strength.
2. You can use a d4 in place of your normal damage for unarmed strikes, and this die increases by level. Note that while this makes a substitution of the die type for the damage, it does not alter the damage type. Again, no conflict. The die substitution happens as normal in higher levels too; the damage type remains unaffected from the base (which is Bludgeoning for most unarmed strikes, but Slashing for the Cat's Claws).
3. Irrelevant, but bonus!
In conclusion, Tabaxi can use their Cat's Claws to make unarmed attacks that fully utilize the monk's Martial Arts.
PS. Tabaxi's Cat's Claws mention you "can" use them, not "must". It's up to you whether you slash with claws for Slashing or make a fist and punch for Bludgeoning.
Well! I stand corrected!
Current Character: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Kydo/Ideas
To summarise:
The Tabaxi can do unarmed strike by fists and kicks (bludgeoning damage) or by claws (slashing damage). Both of them with either strength or dexterity as your melee attack statistic.
Whichever the case, the damage roll is set by the martial art in the monk table.
Enjoy the Tabaxi.
As a new found lover of the Tabaxi (I must ask my DM if he'll allow) and my curiosity of the monk class (never played one yet) and a cat owner (I have two)
this greatly increases my interest in trying to create and play a Tabaxi Monk (Way of the Open Paw?) hehe
the ability to chose bludgeoning or slashing damage I can see being useful as you come against targets who may be resistant to one damage type or the other.
Purrrrrrrfect......
Skameros - Bugbear Barbarian - Out of the Abyss - By Kerrec
Follow your Arrow where it Points - Tabaxi Monk - Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus (by Pokepaladdy)
Citron Pumpkinfoam - Fairy Monk - Project Point: Team Longsword
The way I see it if they monk uses open hand style fighting they would be using hand and claw at the same time..... Does that make scents
I’d argue Tabaxi being felines their claws are retractile, so they could effectively choose if they want to use them or not to deal slashing damage.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Would the claw damage of 1d4 stay the same as the monk levels or follow the martial arts die progression? I can see an argument made for both sides.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I believe my post above (here), explains (or attempts to) both recent questions.
To reiterate:
The Tabaxi "can" (rather than "must") use their claws, so they have the option of using them - for each attack they make, they choose whether to deal bludgeoning or slashing damage.
And the Tabaxi claws are considered Unarmed Strikes, so they benefit from the Martial Arts increased damage as per unarmed strikes - if the monk wants to, claw attacks deal the increased Martial Arts damage.
Playtesting Fugare Draconis, an epic tale of adventure, loss, and redemption
With Tabaxis you may, if you so wish change your unarmed strikes to their Cat's Claws feature.
This means instead of the normal unarmed strike of 1 + Str bludgeoning damage you can now use 1d4 + Strength slashing damage. You can choose one or the other.
For Monks their class feature allows them to replace the damage of 1 or 1d4 of an unarmed strike with their Martial Arts die instead which starts 1d4 and increases as Monk levels increase.
So with a monk instead of the base 1 or 1d4 for Tabaxi you can now do the damage die for Martial Arts which is also 1d4 but increases over time. In addition instead of adding Strength to the roll you can choose to add Dexterity instead if you wish.
Regardless of whether you are a Monk, Tabaxi, alien, whatever. An unarmed strike remains an unarmed strike.
In conclusion your unarmed strike will be as follows:
Not Monk or Tabaxi: Attack: 1d20 + Proficiency + Strength , Damage: 1 + Strength bludgeoning damge
Tabaxi but not Monk: Attack 1d20 + Proficiency + Strength , Damage: choice between doing '1 + Strength bludgeoning damage' or '1d4 + Strength slashing damage'
Monk but not Tabaxi: Attack 1d20 + Proficiency + Choice of Strength or Dexterity , Damage: Martial Arts Die + choice of Strength or Dexterity bludgeoning damage
Tabaxi Monk: Attack 1d20 + Proficiency + Choice of Strength or Dexterity , Damage: Martial Arts Die + choice of Strength or Dexterity with choice of bludgeoning or slashing damage.
Martial Arts Die begins at 1d4 and increases as you progress in the class up to a maximum of 1d10.
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Cyb3rM1nd, thank you for your thoughtful and detailed answer.
It does not make sense to me though, that if one considers a non-tabaxi monk, and he uses all his powers of awesome (Martial Arts die) and thwacks an enemy for 1d4, at the same time a tabaxi monk with big nasty claws could get no additional benefit other than the theoretical benefit of bypassing something which is resistant to bludgeoning but not slashing.
Further it seems to me that that is actually removing the usefulness of a racial trait, which as a GM I will always attempt to avoid. Replacing a 1+STR damage with 1d4+STR damage is cool, you gain benefit from it, but not really as a tabaxi monk. RAW I think you're even right, it just doesn't pass my feeling test. It doesn't feel right to rule that way.
My logic, though it may conflict with RAW.
Both Tabaxi and Tortles (creatures with claws) came out after the monk class so I don't think RAW monk rules took that into account. Claws essentially give you a +1 on average damage bonus over normal unarmed. A dice size increment is the same net ... an average of +1 damage. Thereby arriving at the size increase.
But... all that being said if you are right, and RAW / RAI is in point of fact that tabaxi monks gain no benefit from their claws then I'm disappointed, but I understand there won't be a modification to DDB. (And also, I'll stick with my ruling in my games😆)
Playtesting Fugare Draconis, an epic tale of adventure, loss, and redemption
What this brings to my mind, and this may be a unforeseen additional benefit you might like XIX, is that I'm pretty sure I remember a sage advice that stated natural weapons are treated as weapons. Meaning spells and abilities that can only be used with weapon attacks (such as green-flame blade) are compatible with them where a regular unarmed strike is not. That's a huge benefit and would make tabaxi and similar clawed races able to benefit from all advantages of multi-classing without being forced to use a weapon (the battle master abilities come to mind; with disarming strike a human fighter wouldn't be able to disarm someone without a weapon in hand while a tabaxi would).
Not a direct benefit for pure monks, but awesome if you want to multiclass or take feats that give you abilities/spells from other classes that require weapons, but don't want to actually use a weapon to preserve the whole "I'm lethal with my bare hands" thing.
Edit: So I found the link I was thinking about, but it's a little confusing: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/19/does-the-magic-weapon-spell-work-on-natural-weapons/
Basically, it says that attacks with natural weapons are weapon attacks, but natural weapons do not count as weapons. So a spell/ability that relies on the character making a weapon attack (green-flame blade) works with them, but a spell that targets a weapon (magic weapon) does not. That's what I'm getting out of that thread, someone let me know if I'm missing something please.
Either way, I'm about to make a Tabaxi monk, take Disarming Strike with the Martial Adept feat, and go around killing people with their own weapons. Not sure if I'm going to take the obvious Open Hand route or make it interesting and go Kensei, but never draw my own sword except exceptional RP moments (like duels of honor, imminent protection of an innocent life, etc.).
Your conclusion is accurate, as far as I know. The game has similar terms for different things on this matter.
A "weapon" is one of the items presented in the table of page 149 of the Player's Handbook (or here). Unarmed attacks and natural weapons do not belong in this group.
A "weapon attack" includes attacks made with weapons, unarmed attacks, and attacks with natural weapons. It's a term to make the distinction between those and "spell attacks". It helps, I suppose, if you think about it as "physical attack" for most intents and purposes. It comes in "melee" and "ranged" categories.
So, your assessment of which spell works with which is spot-on. :)
As a monk you are super good at dealing more damage with unarmed strikes.. as a Tabaxi, you get to change Bludgeoning to slashing by adding your claws into the mix...so when you make an unarmed strike you can add your claws for an additional +1 damage and all damage becomes slashing.
My table ruling - Tabaxi Monk: Attack 1d20 + Proficiency + Choice of Strength or Dexterity , Damage: Martial Arts Die + choice of Strength or Dexterity wit bludgeoning or all that +1 and slashing damage
-Wielder of the Enchanted Spatula.
Spatcho,
The main difference between my version (die size increase) and yours (+1 dmg) is that they are guaranteed a minimum base damage of 2 with yours, the other route it still is a minimum of 1.
Id take either of these over the “claws have no effect other than making it slashing” ruling
Playtesting Fugare Draconis, an epic tale of adventure, loss, and redemption