Fair points, but I'd still like to see a bit of revamping like they did for rangers.
I haven't seen many people complain about Monks in general - mostly just the Way of Four Elements, which is relatively straightforward to houserule into something decent by decreasing all the spell ki costs by 1 and granting a few additional spells. There's also a pretty slick homebrew for it. People also tend to want to see revised Sorcerers, and there are always complaints about particular subclasses (Trickery Cleric), spells, spell selections, etc.
But the key is that Ranger was near the top of player feedback preference scores and consistently at the bottom of player feedback power scores - i.e., players wanted to play them but found their previous incarnation to be too underpowered to do so. The Ranger got revised because it was abundantly clear that the majority of players wanted it revised. The same is not true for other classes. I don't think we're likely to see "revised" versions of much else, because the Ranger revision was a bit of a desperate move already. If you think there are things lacking with your character, you should really chat with your DM about houseruling some features.
So you are completely right that Perfect Self is a pathetic capstone ability. Underpowered and giving no reason to actually finish the class. The thing is Perfect Self has gone through at least two previous versions before this final disappointing release.
Earlier in the Playtest the Monk's captstone ability Perfect Self set all their stats to 20. This was interesting, but it ultimately meant that it was not a good idea to spend the ASIs on stats if you were going to make it to level 20. This was later changed when the Monk was gutted and lost all of its abilities like the Martial Dice that it and the Fighter had, which would later get a weaker pathetic revision in the Battlemaster Fighter's dice.
Later on, not long before the official release, Perfect Self was much better than it was now but still thematically similar. Instead of gaining 4 Ki Points when you roll initiative and have 0, something that will rarely if ever come up especially at level 20, the Monk gained 1 Ki every round. Period. No need to be at 0, just regain 1 Ki every round. Not sure it could be said to be as powerful as At Will Rage or Wild Shape, but it really helped. Of course Ki was a short rest recharge resource, and at that point you only got 8 Ki by 20th level. The Elemental Monk at the time was actually interesting, instead of just using Ki to cast spells. The Monk's Unarmed damage started at 1d6 and scaled to 1d12, instead of the 1d4 to 1d10 we have now. Generally the Monk would have been a lot better if we got what was in the last Playtest packet, though it would not have gotten Extra Attack at 5th, instead getting 2 attacks per round at 1st and 3 at 8th, without spending Ki.
That said I do like the Shadow Monk we ended up with.
By the way the Monk wasn't the only class to have last minute nerfs. Near the end of the Playtest the Fighter could roll a DC 15 Con Save whenever reduced to 0 hp to instead be reduced to 1 hp. Every time. At 13th they got Advantage on all Saves, instead of needing to use a daily resource to reroll a Save. The Weaponmaster, which would later become the Battlemaster, started with 2 dice at 3rd and eventually got 4, started at d6 and became d10s, knew all maneuvers, some were usable at 3rd while more opened at 7th, and at 19th level if you started a turn without any superiority dice you would regain 2. Now Battlemaster is like the current Monk only getting some when you roll Initiative and have 0. The Warrior, which would become the Champion, gave you 19-20 crit range right away, 18-20 at 7th, did special conditions on a crit at 15th level and thus actually making use of that expanded crit range, healing a small amount each round if you are below half health but also not at 0 hp. All in all a great improvement over what we got.
Even the Wizard was nerfed in a way. At 18th level get a 1st and 2nd level spell you can cast at will at their lowest level, but also back then your archetype would give you a special ability, in some cases one or two third level spells that you could cast at will at their lowest level, Evocation giving Fireball and Lightning Bolt for example.
Back then a 20th level Ranger always had advantage on Attack Rolls and Saving Throws while in a Natural Environment.
The Warlock on the other hand was actually slightly improved from, not the playtest because the last year or so of the playtest had no Warlock available for playtesting, but instead from the Alpha Player's Handbook. In that the Warlock's spell slots actually became level 6 at 20th level, which would be an improvement, except the Warlock's Spell Slots at the time were daily like any other caster. Yes that meant the Warlock got 4 spells per day, all at their highest level but still only 4 per day. The Warlock capstone at the time let them regain all their spell slots 1/day after a Short Rest. It was ridiculous and it is good that it was changed, but this probably would have been caught sooner if they had kept the Warlock and Sorcerer in the Playtest.
This is a pretty old topic, but for the record, this is the house rule I've gone with (and I'm pretty pleased with it):
"At 20th level, your efficiency at harnessing small amounts of ki at any time reaches its peak. At the start of each of your turns, if you have fewer than 4 ki points, you gain one ki point."
Sorry to bring back an old topic. Just joined the forum and went digging for fun monk stuff.
I really like that idea as well.
At the moment I'm playtesting a homebrew monk(posted it in homebrew section "Way of the sramana") and I'm going to multiclass 2 levels of War Mage, so my 20th level abilities will be Invisibility and Astral Projection.
Btw, if no one has looked at multiclass Monk with War Mage. It seems like a sweet path to give monks more defense and utility type spells.
I agree that, as written, it is ridiculous. To be useful at all, it requires very artificial management of Ki points to be sure you are at zero at the end of combat - which is not always predictable. The modification of simply setting the minimum Ki points to 4 when rolling initiative is what the rule should have been. Even then, it is not very strong. As for me, my monk character will not take the final level in monk because of the capstone ability being so underwhelming. He'll multiclass instead. As it turns out, it works out really well for role playing anyway, so no harm done.
I recently multiclassed cleric for my monk. I went with Knowledge domain, so he got extra languages, expertise in two skills, and some good utility spells. I feel like he has more utility out of combat now. A little bit more preachy though.
This is very cool, but could have many unintended unbalancing consequences. Does this mean they get extra attacks every round? Or the choice to spend Ki twice for even more attacks? Up to 6 attacks in a round, normally? Or 4 attacks and the still be able to disengage? Of course, the more powerful options use Ki, and using Ki twice a round will use it up in a hurry, so maybe that all balances out.
This is very cool, but could have many unintended unbalancing consequences. Does this mean they get extra attacks every round? Or the choice to spend Ki twice for even more attacks? Up to 6 attacks in a round, normally? Or 4 attacks and the still be able to disengage? Of course, the more powerful options use Ki, and using Ki twice a round will use it up in a hurry, so maybe that all balances out.
I envisioned any bonus action that requires Ki use..or a reaction ....definitely extra attacks. and balance would be a concern, but honestly, if you are running level 20 characters balance is pretty much out the window anyways and should mostly be about the narrative.
I like it but remember, it's not just the ki points you get under those conditions, it's also that a level 20 monk with 4 or even 5 ki points or less.... is well rewarded for spending those ki with reckless abandon. ie this monk is going to be more aggressive/versatile then if they were fresh.
I hope that they do for the monk what they did for the ranger and give it a UA revision. I know they're supposed to only be partially combat oriented compared to the straight up fighters, but they just seem underwhelming in combat. Who wants to be a monk if you can't feel like Ip Man? I don't want to have to multiclass in order to feel like i'm fitting the theme of the class I originally picked.
A monk with 20 Wisdom has the AC of studded leather, +3. Open Hand monks get (at 17th level) one of the few true save-or-die abilities in the whole edition. At 1st level, a monk can attack twice per round, adding their Dex modifier to damage on both attacks, a feat matched only by fighters specializing in Two-Weapon Fighting.
A monk with 20 Wisdom AND 20 Dex(which they wont have until like 19 if you play pointbuy/standard array) has the AC of Normal Platemail + Shield. ONLY Open Hand monks get a save or die ability... IN A GAME WHERE ALL THE THINGS YOU WOULD WANT TO DO THIS ON HAVE LEGENDARY SAVES. At 1st level a monk can add an attack for a bonus action, same as anyone else who dual wields, and OH BOY I GET TO ADD MY DEX MOD TO A d4 HOW SWELL. This has to be the most smoothbrain thing I've ever read lol, let the 20th lvl ability not suck dude.
Great read.. I'm new to the forum, and a few months ago started playing a Monk (open hand) for the first time. My monk is now level 8, and i love how it plays.
I have been looking down the road, and found that level 20 was very underwhelming, so i am considering multiclassing 1 level to get something that would complement the monk's current play style. I don't want tons of fight spells, because it would be worthless. I fight melee, and i rely on good defense.
My thought was to go 1 level into a Light cleric.. mostly for the reaction opportunity (my wisdom is +4 right now) and for a few utility cantrips. Maybe a fight spell from long range too.
The debate is just to know when to actually get that level. :)
If your level 20 party does one fight a day, the capstone is underwhelming. If your DM is the sort to attack you again right after a boss fight however, the capstone means that you can at least be invisible and resistant to damage for the first 10 rounds of every fight you're ever in.
This may be a spicy opinion, but I think the level 20 ability is nigh useless.
I mean Ki is real strong and do lots of cool things, but only 4 ki if you start with zero? For level 20? I mean, cmon aren't the level 20 abilities supposed to be rad? Barbarians can get 24 Strength, 24 Constitution, and Unlimited Rages! That's so cool! And then you get, 4 points of Ki if you had zero. Well you better hope you don't have 1 left!
It's just a bummer ya know? Bards and Monks got cheated for the 20 abilities. Meanwhile Paladin's can go god mode, Druids can wild shape all the time, and even rogue's get an auto hit. I'd love it if Monk's got something like 1 ki point a round, or maybe their Dex and Wis go to 24 or something.
Maybe I'm just like flashy stuff too much, but its a really underwhelming capstone ability.
Some capstones are incredibly lackluster. This is absolutely one of them. I guess the "upside" is that it will allow you to make what some might consider riskier uses of your Ki for various abilities, knowing that even if you get into another tussle right after you'll always have at least 4 starting, but even then thats only if you made sure the last combat didnt end while you had like 1-3. Aside from that, its just pretty much an addendum.
a 20th level monk that has 1-3 ki.... would just step of the wind/patient defence for 1-3 rounds after the combat...and thus become eligible for the 4 ki points, it is virtually guaranteed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
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Fair points, but I'd still like to see a bit of revamping like they did for rangers.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
its very underwhelming if it read less than 4 ki, instead of zero ki it would be useful, if still underpowered.
So you are completely right that Perfect Self is a pathetic capstone ability. Underpowered and giving no reason to actually finish the class. The thing is Perfect Self has gone through at least two previous versions before this final disappointing release.
Earlier in the Playtest the Monk's captstone ability Perfect Self set all their stats to 20. This was interesting, but it ultimately meant that it was not a good idea to spend the ASIs on stats if you were going to make it to level 20. This was later changed when the Monk was gutted and lost all of its abilities like the Martial Dice that it and the Fighter had, which would later get a weaker pathetic revision in the Battlemaster Fighter's dice.
Later on, not long before the official release, Perfect Self was much better than it was now but still thematically similar. Instead of gaining 4 Ki Points when you roll initiative and have 0, something that will rarely if ever come up especially at level 20, the Monk gained 1 Ki every round. Period. No need to be at 0, just regain 1 Ki every round. Not sure it could be said to be as powerful as At Will Rage or Wild Shape, but it really helped. Of course Ki was a short rest recharge resource, and at that point you only got 8 Ki by 20th level. The Elemental Monk at the time was actually interesting, instead of just using Ki to cast spells. The Monk's Unarmed damage started at 1d6 and scaled to 1d12, instead of the 1d4 to 1d10 we have now. Generally the Monk would have been a lot better if we got what was in the last Playtest packet, though it would not have gotten Extra Attack at 5th, instead getting 2 attacks per round at 1st and 3 at 8th, without spending Ki.
That said I do like the Shadow Monk we ended up with.
By the way the Monk wasn't the only class to have last minute nerfs. Near the end of the Playtest the Fighter could roll a DC 15 Con Save whenever reduced to 0 hp to instead be reduced to 1 hp. Every time. At 13th they got Advantage on all Saves, instead of needing to use a daily resource to reroll a Save. The Weaponmaster, which would later become the Battlemaster, started with 2 dice at 3rd and eventually got 4, started at d6 and became d10s, knew all maneuvers, some were usable at 3rd while more opened at 7th, and at 19th level if you started a turn without any superiority dice you would regain 2. Now Battlemaster is like the current Monk only getting some when you roll Initiative and have 0. The Warrior, which would become the Champion, gave you 19-20 crit range right away, 18-20 at 7th, did special conditions on a crit at 15th level and thus actually making use of that expanded crit range, healing a small amount each round if you are below half health but also not at 0 hp. All in all a great improvement over what we got.
Even the Wizard was nerfed in a way. At 18th level get a 1st and 2nd level spell you can cast at will at their lowest level, but also back then your archetype would give you a special ability, in some cases one or two third level spells that you could cast at will at their lowest level, Evocation giving Fireball and Lightning Bolt for example.
Back then a 20th level Ranger always had advantage on Attack Rolls and Saving Throws while in a Natural Environment.
The Warlock on the other hand was actually slightly improved from, not the playtest because the last year or so of the playtest had no Warlock available for playtesting, but instead from the Alpha Player's Handbook. In that the Warlock's spell slots actually became level 6 at 20th level, which would be an improvement, except the Warlock's Spell Slots at the time were daily like any other caster. Yes that meant the Warlock got 4 spells per day, all at their highest level but still only 4 per day. The Warlock capstone at the time let them regain all their spell slots 1/day after a Short Rest. It was ridiculous and it is good that it was changed, but this probably would have been caught sooner if they had kept the Warlock and Sorcerer in the Playtest.
How about this for a Perfect Self level 20 power.
"Your maximum Ki permanently increases by an amount equal to your Wisdom modifier."
... I can get behind that. That way you'd be throwing flurry of blows like a real epic level monk once every turn. For level 20, I can dig it.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
This is a pretty old topic, but for the record, this is the house rule I've gone with (and I'm pretty pleased with it):
"At 20th level, your efficiency at harnessing small amounts of ki at any time reaches its peak. At the start of each of your turns, if you have fewer than 4 ki points, you gain one ki point."
Sorry to bring back an old topic. Just joined the forum and went digging for fun monk stuff.
I really like that idea as well.
At the moment I'm playtesting a homebrew monk(posted it in homebrew section "Way of the sramana") and I'm going to multiclass 2 levels of War Mage, so my 20th level abilities will be Invisibility and Astral Projection.
Btw, if no one has looked at multiclass Monk with War Mage. It seems like a sweet path to give monks more defense and utility type spells.
I agree that, as written, it is ridiculous. To be useful at all, it requires very artificial management of Ki points to be sure you are at zero at the end of combat - which is not always predictable. The modification of simply setting the minimum Ki points to 4 when rolling initiative is what the rule should have been. Even then, it is not very strong. As for me, my monk character will not take the final level in monk because of the capstone ability being so underwhelming. He'll multiclass instead. As it turns out, it works out really well for role playing anyway, so no harm done.
I recently multiclassed cleric for my monk. I went with Knowledge domain, so he got extra languages, expertise in two skills, and some good utility spells. I feel like he has more utility out of combat now. A little bit more preachy though.
So what do you think; change this...
Perfect Self
At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points.
To this...
Perfect Self
At 20th level, you have become so attuned to the ki flowing through the Universe that you can preform an additional bonus action per round.
Cry HAVOC! and let slip the mustelids of war...
This is very cool, but could have many unintended unbalancing consequences. Does this mean they get extra attacks every round? Or the choice to spend Ki twice for even more attacks? Up to 6 attacks in a round, normally? Or 4 attacks and the still be able to disengage? Of course, the more powerful options use Ki, and using Ki twice a round will use it up in a hurry, so maybe that all balances out.
I envisioned any bonus action that requires Ki use..or a reaction ....definitely extra attacks. and balance would be a concern, but honestly, if you are running level 20 characters balance is pretty much out the window anyways and should mostly be about the narrative.
Cry HAVOC! and let slip the mustelids of war...
I like it but remember, it's not just the ki points you get under those conditions, it's also that a level 20 monk with 4 or even 5 ki points or less.... is well rewarded for spending those ki with reckless abandon. ie this monk is going to be more aggressive/versatile then if they were fresh.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
A monk with 20 Wisdom AND 20 Dex(which they wont have until like 19 if you play pointbuy/standard array) has the AC of Normal Platemail + Shield. ONLY Open Hand monks get a save or die ability... IN A GAME WHERE ALL THE THINGS YOU WOULD WANT TO DO THIS ON HAVE LEGENDARY SAVES. At 1st level a monk can add an attack for a bonus action, same as anyone else who dual wields, and OH BOY I GET TO ADD MY DEX MOD TO A d4 HOW SWELL. This has to be the most smoothbrain thing I've ever read lol, let the 20th lvl ability not suck dude.
Great read.. I'm new to the forum, and a few months ago started playing a Monk (open hand) for the first time. My monk is now level 8, and i love how it plays.
I have been looking down the road, and found that level 20 was very underwhelming, so i am considering multiclassing 1 level to get something that would complement the monk's current play style. I don't want tons of fight spells, because it would be worthless. I fight melee, and i rely on good defense.
My thought was to go 1 level into a Light cleric.. mostly for the reaction opportunity (my wisdom is +4 right now) and for a few utility cantrips. Maybe a fight spell from long range too.
The debate is just to know when to actually get that level. :)
If your level 20 party does one fight a day, the capstone is underwhelming. If your DM is the sort to attack you again right after a boss fight however, the capstone means that you can at least be invisible and resistant to damage for the first 10 rounds of every fight you're ever in.
This may be a spicy opinion, but I think the level 20 ability is nigh useless.
I mean Ki is real strong and do lots of cool things, but only 4 ki if you start with zero? For level 20? I mean, cmon aren't the level 20 abilities supposed to be rad? Barbarians can get 24 Strength, 24 Constitution, and Unlimited Rages! That's so cool! And then you get, 4 points of Ki if you had zero. Well you better hope you don't have 1 left!
It's just a bummer ya know? Bards and Monks got cheated for the 20 abilities. Meanwhile Paladin's can go god mode, Druids can wild shape all the time, and even rogue's get an auto hit. I'd love it if Monk's got something like 1 ki point a round, or maybe their Dex and Wis go to 24 or something.
Maybe I'm just like flashy stuff too much, but its a really underwhelming capstone ability.
Some capstones are incredibly lackluster. This is absolutely one of them. I guess the "upside" is that it will allow you to make what some might consider riskier uses of your Ki for various abilities, knowing that even if you get into another tussle right after you'll always have at least 4 starting, but even then thats only if you made sure the last combat didnt end while you had like 1-3. Aside from that, its just pretty much an addendum.
a 20th level monk that has 1-3 ki.... would just step of the wind/patient defence for 1-3 rounds after the combat...and thus become eligible for the 4 ki points, it is virtually guaranteed.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.