For real though, I was looking over the class (I haven't played it yet, but still), and it seems their spell economy is very finicky. To cast a spell like Hail of Thorns, you lose concentration on Hunter's Mark. If you want to use Swift Quiver you lose Hunters Mark. Beast Bond is broken with use of Swift Quiver. Pass without Trace ends Spike Growth, ect. Is it that bad in gameplay, or does it only seem bad?
I'm rolling up a Ranger now and I'm worried about this. A lot of the Rangers potential power is tied to their ability to use magic and there are very few offensive options that don't require concentration. (Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley aren't listed for some reason) the challenge I see is that you have to be deliberate about what spells you cast when since once you drop concentration the spellslot is lost/wasted. Paladins are in a similar situation, however they have smites which can add on demand potency without affecting their concentration.
I totally understand that, but it seems like it would t be that bad to be using Beast Bond + Hunters Mark. Or maintain beast bond when using hail of thorns. Its just if you end concentration early it feels like a wasted a lot and all.
I actually think requiring concentration for so many ranger spells makes a lot of sense, not just mechanically, but thematically. You're working with nature, after all and that's a fickle force. If you don't keep an eye on it at all times, you should expect it to act up.
Note: I've not found the concentration to be much of a hindrance.
Concentration as a mechanic serves two important functions in 5th edition: 1) helping to prevent characters that can cast spells from feeling far more potent than characters that can't cast spells, which was a problem people experienced with prior versions of the game; 2) giving players access to stripping away buffs from their enemies or debuffs placed on their party without requiring a particular option (that being a character of appropriate class to have dispel magic, and actually taking dispel magic).
That it complicates playing a spell casting character because you have to choose carefully which concentration-using spell to use, rather than being able to always choose to layer every buff spell you know on yourself, I see as completely overshadowed by the good that the rule creates (by which I mean more variety in spell strategy taken by players, since some will prefer X concentration spell over Y for generally use, all will have to choose which one to use in any given situation, and more players will use other non-concentration spells because they can spend a spell slot on those without losing the effect of their chosen concentration spell, plus some players will also cast spells less frequently so that they can save their slots for the concentration effects they find important, so they don't do that "go nova, find a way to rest, repeat" thing that I've heard so many groups get frustrated by).
I do feel that fewer concentration spells would be nice. Or make it so you can use on buff spell and one attack spell at the same time. That way to can have something like bark skin going and cast a spell, but not stack buffs.
I really think Hunter's Mark should be a class feature.
Absolutely agree; as a balance, one could have the feature work exactly like the spell, but give disadvantage when fighting any other creature in the presence or near the marked one, since that one is, in theory, your quarry.
I really think Hunter's Mark should be a class feature.
Absolutely agree; as a balance, one could have the feature work exactly like the spell, but give disadvantage when fighting any other creature in the presence or near the marked one, since that one is, in theory, your quarry.
Sounds good, but implementing it might be a bit tricky. What level would you put it at? You've already got Fighting Style and Spellcasting at 2nd level. Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer at 1st. Primeval Awareness and a subclass at 3rd. If you replace Spellcasting outright, what do you put at 9th, 13th, and 17th levels?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I really think Hunter's Mark should be a class feature.
Absolutely agree; as a balance, one could have the feature work exactly like the spell, but give disadvantage when fighting any other creature in the presence or near the marked one, since that one is, in theory, your quarry.
Sounds good, but implementing it might be a bit tricky. What level would you put it at? You've already got Fighting Style and Spellcasting at 2nd level. Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer at 1st. Primeval Awareness and a subclass at 3rd. If you replace Spellcasting outright, what do you put at 9th, 13th, and 17th levels?
If you're playing the non-UA Ranger, both the 1st-level abilities are "ribbon" abilities and adding Hunter's Mark doesn't unbalance anything. And regardless, Paladins get Smite at 2nd level along with their Fighting Style and Spellcasting - if you houseruled Hunter's Mark to work in a similar fashion to Smite, then this seems reasonable.
I really like the UA Ranger except at first level - Natural Explorer became too good, and Favoured Enemy now does damage as a ribbon ability that the developers explicitly do not try to balance - meaning that a Ranger who lucks into choosing a favoured enemy their DM happens to use a lot in the campaign will do disproportionately well. I think nerfing those and adding Hunter's Mark as the built-in ability it always should have been would be an appropriate balance.
What if the PHb version of Favored Enemy and Hunter's Mark fused to become Favored Enemy Hunter? Check this out:
- Select your favored enemy from this list: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies. When you gain this feature, you also learn one language of your choice that is spoken by your favored enemies, if they speak one at all. You choose one additional favored enemy, as well as an associated language, at 6th and 14th level. As you gain levels, your choices should reflect the types of monsters you have encountered on your adventure.
- You have advantage on any Wisdom (Survival) and Wisdom (Perception) checks to track and find your favored enemies. You have advantage on Intelligence checks to recall information about them.
- Additionally, You can enter a Hunter State as a bonus action. Your Hunter State lasts for 1 hour. You deal an extra 1d6 damage to a favored enemy you hit with a weapon attack. You cannot concentrate on spells while in your Hunter state. You can enter your Hunter State number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). You regain all uses when you complete a long rest. This damage increases to 2d6 at 6th level and 3d6 at 14th level.
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"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
There are homebrew feats that allow you to concentrate on more than one spell at a time. It's just a matter if your DM will allow you to use them. I took one, called Meditator, which gives me capability to maintain concentration for up to two spells at the same time, have advantage on wisdom saves, attacks, and checks, you get +2 to wisdom attack rolls, and you have advantage against madness effects or the frightened condition. You gain 1 hour of this for every 2 hours you meditate, so while slightly broken, it does what it does. I took it as my Ranger, and i can actually do crazy amounts of damage with spells now, almost equivalent to my longbow +2. There is another one that allows double concentration spells with less buffing, but it would increase intelligence, i think. Did this for my second Ranger character (Naga Horizon Walker), compared to my more "vanilla" half-dryad Hunter Ranger. Still trying to figure out if Hunter's Mark and Conjure Barrage could stack, but thst's another post.
The thing with Hunter's Mark is that if it wasn't concentration it would probably be to overpowered. The thing is, it's not just once a turn. Therefor, you could use it every time that you hit an enemy on your turn. Imagine this combined with Volley or Whirlwind Attack . . .
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
It's not just Ranger spells. All spells, pretty much, are concentration. The rare few that aren't (like Spiritual Weapon for Clerics) are the exception, not the rule. It's a "feature" of the edition, and you'll find the same thing no matter which class you look at.
I think the best thing would be to make it a class feature as follows.
Option 1, 1d6 on every hit, not a spell
Option 2, Once per turn you can Mark a target, dealing an extra 1d6 damage on hit. This damage increases to 2d6 at 5th level, 3d6 at 11th and 4d6 at 17th. Not a spell.
goal is 5 ranger and 15 rogue, Currently have survived to hunter ranger 5/ rogue 2, have been facing this from the start. I just chose the one I use and when very tactfully. crowd control and damage without allies around use hail of thorns 2nd lvl to pump out lots of damage and then you are guaranteed damage on all within 5 feet of where you shoot to take minimal damage that will add to your colossal against them when you need to shoot them next. then they will engage your companions but that's ok because hail of thorns is a one time use then you can use colossal and sneak attack with hunters mark when they are close to allies or to track them. save at least 1 2nd lvl slot for healing( I prefer healing spirit over cure wounds because it's good in combat and out to do lots of healing and prevent saving throws because its a bonus action to use.I also have sharpshooter and usually take the -5 to get +10 damage on one of the shots or two depending on their ac. with rogue you can dodge dash and disengage as a bonus and if you take Zephyr Strike you can evade when they get within 5 feet of you and then take advantage shots on that target and put lots of space between enemies. why not when you can shoot at 600ft no disadvantage haha. this class gets better and better the more rogue levels you take. assasin will give auto crits and fun stuff but that's about where you power peek and then make sure u have lots of arrows, magic items, a well rounded team and its a fun role to play. I made him after robin hood with no regrets. his shots really are legendary.
Agreeing that Hunter's Mark every turn no matter what is too powerful for a 1st level ability. I don't mind that it's a spell, thereby allowing you to switch it out for something else.
The problem though, with melee Rangers especially, is that they have, on average, lower AC than Paladins or Eldritch Knights. Single class melee Rangers also have much less incentive to pick up Warcaster as a feat than EKs (or even Arcane Tricksters) because Rangers get no cantrips and no direct damage spells that don't require a weapon to hit with. So the main routes to maintaining concentration - not getting hit and combining the Resilent CON feat with the Warcaster feat - are more "expensive" for them than for any other martial class.
I think there should be some way to fix the Concentration problem for people who want to play melee Rangers. THAT would solve the issue with Hunter's Mark and a bunch of other useful Ranger combat spells at the same time.
The easiest solution is to just remove Concentration all together.
I have been working on a revised ranger build and also proposed that Hunter's Mark is a feature you get at first level, you can use a bonus action to mark a target within 90ft, it takes 1d6 extra damage on hit. At level 10 the damage increase to 2d6. Not a spell.
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For real though, I was looking over the class (I haven't played it yet, but still), and it seems their spell economy is very finicky. To cast a spell like Hail of Thorns, you lose concentration on Hunter's Mark. If you want to use Swift Quiver you lose Hunters Mark. Beast Bond is broken with use of Swift Quiver. Pass without Trace ends Spike Growth, ect. Is it that bad in gameplay, or does it only seem bad?
Aren't Enchantment Wizards just...charming?
well some of them combined are quite overpowered
I'm rolling up a Ranger now and I'm worried about this. A lot of the Rangers potential power is tied to their ability to use magic and there are very few offensive options that don't require concentration. (Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley aren't listed for some reason) the challenge I see is that you have to be deliberate about what spells you cast when since once you drop concentration the spellslot is lost/wasted. Paladins are in a similar situation, however they have smites which can add on demand potency without affecting their concentration.
I totally understand that, but it seems like it would t be that bad to be using Beast Bond + Hunters Mark. Or maintain beast bond when using hail of thorns. Its just if you end concentration early it feels like a wasted a lot and all.
I really think Hunter's Mark should be a class feature.
@Brimstun - Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley are probably not listed because they are not in the SRD.
I actually think requiring concentration for so many ranger spells makes a lot of sense, not just mechanically, but thematically. You're working with nature, after all and that's a fickle force. If you don't keep an eye on it at all times, you should expect it to act up.
Note: I've not found the concentration to be much of a hindrance.
Concentration as a mechanic serves two important functions in 5th edition: 1) helping to prevent characters that can cast spells from feeling far more potent than characters that can't cast spells, which was a problem people experienced with prior versions of the game; 2) giving players access to stripping away buffs from their enemies or debuffs placed on their party without requiring a particular option (that being a character of appropriate class to have dispel magic, and actually taking dispel magic).
That it complicates playing a spell casting character because you have to choose carefully which concentration-using spell to use, rather than being able to always choose to layer every buff spell you know on yourself, I see as completely overshadowed by the good that the rule creates (by which I mean more variety in spell strategy taken by players, since some will prefer X concentration spell over Y for generally use, all will have to choose which one to use in any given situation, and more players will use other non-concentration spells because they can spend a spell slot on those without losing the effect of their chosen concentration spell, plus some players will also cast spells less frequently so that they can save their slots for the concentration effects they find important, so they don't do that "go nova, find a way to rest, repeat" thing that I've heard so many groups get frustrated by).
I do feel that fewer concentration spells would be nice. Or make it so you can use on buff spell and one attack spell at the same time. That way to can have something like bark skin going and cast a spell, but not stack buffs.
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I'm ok w/ Hunter's Mark as a spell. I like that the concentration aspect makes you strategize which spell to cast and when.
I would like to see it scale up in damage w/ spell slot level like Paladin smite, however.
What if the PHb version of Favored Enemy and Hunter's Mark fused to become Favored Enemy Hunter? Check this out:
- Select your favored enemy from this list: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies. When you gain this feature, you also learn one language of your choice that is spoken by your favored enemies, if they speak one at all. You choose one additional favored enemy, as well as an associated language, at 6th and 14th level. As you gain levels, your choices should reflect the types of monsters you have encountered on your adventure.
- You have advantage on any Wisdom (Survival) and Wisdom (Perception) checks to track and find your favored enemies. You have advantage on Intelligence checks to recall information about them.
- Additionally, You can enter a Hunter State as a bonus action. Your Hunter State lasts for 1 hour. You deal an extra 1d6 damage to a favored enemy you hit with a weapon attack. You cannot concentrate on spells while in your Hunter state. You can enter your Hunter State number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). You regain all uses when you complete a long rest. This damage increases to 2d6 at 6th level and 3d6 at 14th level.
"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
There are homebrew feats that allow you to concentrate on more than one spell at a time. It's just a matter if your DM will allow you to use them. I took one, called Meditator, which gives me capability to maintain concentration for up to two spells at the same time, have advantage on wisdom saves, attacks, and checks, you get +2 to wisdom attack rolls, and you have advantage against madness effects or the frightened condition. You gain 1 hour of this for every 2 hours you meditate, so while slightly broken, it does what it does. I took it as my Ranger, and i can actually do crazy amounts of damage with spells now, almost equivalent to my longbow +2. There is another one that allows double concentration spells with less buffing, but it would increase intelligence, i think. Did this for my second Ranger character (Naga Horizon Walker), compared to my more "vanilla" half-dryad Hunter Ranger. Still trying to figure out if Hunter's Mark and Conjure Barrage could stack, but thst's another post.
The thing with Hunter's Mark is that if it wasn't concentration it would probably be to overpowered. The thing is, it's not just once a turn. Therefor, you could use it every time that you hit an enemy on your turn. Imagine this combined with Volley or Whirlwind Attack . . .
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Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
It's not just Ranger spells. All spells, pretty much, are concentration. The rare few that aren't (like Spiritual Weapon for Clerics) are the exception, not the rule. It's a "feature" of the edition, and you'll find the same thing no matter which class you look at.
I think the best thing would be to make it a class feature as follows.
Option 1, 1d6 on every hit, not a spell
Option 2, Once per turn you can Mark a target, dealing an extra 1d6 damage on hit. This damage increases to 2d6 at 5th level, 3d6 at 11th and 4d6 at 17th. Not a spell.
goal is 5 ranger and 15 rogue, Currently have survived to hunter ranger 5/ rogue 2, have been facing this from the start. I just chose the one I use and when very tactfully. crowd control and damage without allies around use hail of thorns 2nd lvl to pump out lots of damage and then you are guaranteed damage on all within 5 feet of where you shoot to take minimal damage that will add to your colossal against them when you need to shoot them next. then they will engage your companions but that's ok because hail of thorns is a one time use then you can use colossal and sneak attack with hunters mark when they are close to allies or to track them. save at least 1 2nd lvl slot for healing( I prefer healing spirit over cure wounds because it's good in combat and out to do lots of healing and prevent saving throws because its a bonus action to use.I also have sharpshooter and usually take the -5 to get +10 damage on one of the shots or two depending on their ac. with rogue you can dodge dash and disengage as a bonus and if you take Zephyr Strike you can evade when they get within 5 feet of you and then take advantage shots on that target and put lots of space between enemies. why not when you can shoot at 600ft no disadvantage haha. this class gets better and better the more rogue levels you take. assasin will give auto crits and fun stuff but that's about where you power peek and then make sure u have lots of arrows, magic items, a well rounded team and its a fun role to play. I made him after robin hood with no regrets. his shots really are legendary.
Agreeing that Hunter's Mark every turn no matter what is too powerful for a 1st level ability. I don't mind that it's a spell, thereby allowing you to switch it out for something else.
The problem though, with melee Rangers especially, is that they have, on average, lower AC than Paladins or Eldritch Knights. Single class melee Rangers also have much less incentive to pick up Warcaster as a feat than EKs (or even Arcane Tricksters) because Rangers get no cantrips and no direct damage spells that don't require a weapon to hit with. So the main routes to maintaining concentration - not getting hit and combining the Resilent CON feat with the Warcaster feat - are more "expensive" for them than for any other martial class.
I think there should be some way to fix the Concentration problem for people who want to play melee Rangers. THAT would solve the issue with Hunter's Mark and a bunch of other useful Ranger combat spells at the same time.
The easiest solution is to just remove Concentration all together.
I have been working on a revised ranger build and also proposed that Hunter's Mark is a feature you get at first level, you can use a bonus action to mark a target within 90ft, it takes 1d6 extra damage on hit. At level 10 the damage increase to 2d6. Not a spell.