I realized I asked a question in someone else’s thread. Not likely a good thing to do, it was related but I deleted it and moved it to my own.
Made a new character for a starting 5th level campaign, took rogue and then moved to monk at level 4. I’m not sure exactly of the setting so made the character I wanted to play not knowing anything. Also new to 5e. I played in early to late 1980s.
backgroud was prior life as a new assassin led to misfortune and a new recovery and dedication to this new order. Now after years he is back out in service.
i didn’t initially think that an agent by day, assassin by night would prioritize thieves tools expertise over stealth and perception however.
for future characters I create if I’m going to be any form of rogue, is expertise in thieves tools a party must?
Why would you go monk at level 4? Take rogue to 5, that way you get an ASI and cunning action. Either way, thieves tools is good for dungeon and urban campaigns, but useless in wilderness campaigns.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I can't imagine playing a Rogue without expertise in Thieves Tools. You're expected to fill that role for your party. Isn't there enough room in your build to take it in Stealth and Thieves Tools and Proficiency in the other skills with your high Dex? In part it depends on your DM. If he doesn't give you any locks to pick then ... That would be like a DM letting a Ranger select Mountains as their favored terrain and then writing the whole campaign in a Swamp. I can think of a lot of reasons an assassin would want to pick a lock.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Yeah it’s more a matter of what is starting L1 expertise. For the double proficiency. I’m hearing enough support for it so expertise in stealth or perception and tools is what many are suggesting
My experience is that perception and stealth are used more than thieves tools. I was in another thread recently and someone asked a similar question and it really made me start to think, because my initial thought was that stealth and thieves tools were a pretty obvious set of choices to make. Then I started to think about how much my groups actually /need/ to use thieves tools, and the answer is "not very often". Stealth and Perception are used multiple times, nearly every session.
I think if I ever build a rogue for myself to play, I won't pick expertise in thieves tools. I'm going to pick the skills that experience has told me I am going to use the most.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If the DCs of traps and locks are set before you start play, expertise in thieves' tools might be worthwhile. However, since that's generally only true of modules, and modules don't assume a rogue, DCs are usually reasonable for someone with proficiency and 14ish dex, so just by focusing on your dex you tend to be ahead of the curve. For groups where the DM is setting the DCs, they will most likely be based on the rogue's bonus, so having a higher bonus doesn't actually help you. Perception will typically make a larger difference as DCs (or stealth rolls) are typically set based on monster stats or the whole group's perception.
Also, unless you're in a dangerous situation, there's not really a penalty for failing to pick a lock, so just keep trying until you succeed.
Depends. Some GMs only allow a certain number of tries on a given lock and say that you either jam it or can't figure out how to pick it if you fail to make it.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I have also been thinking further about this question. And it is really about the DM.
If you can't pick the lock there are other ways of overcoming the problem. You can break the door down. You can use acid to burn open the lock. You can break the hinges (sometimes). So a failure to pick the lock is not a dead end, and if it is, the DM has screwed the party.
Likewise, if the DM dials up the DC for locks because your party has a rogue, and worse because the rogue picked expertise in thieves tools, then the DM is effectively taking away your agency to build your character. I never hear of a DM artificially raising the AC of all monsters after you get a +1 sword, but I suppose it can happen. Heck, maybe all monsters get multi-attack after your party reaches level 5 too.
But the real point I find persuasive is that there should be another way to overcome the locked door or locked chest so expertise in thieves tools is just a convenience. But on the other hand, I could see a DM 'shutting down' a party's plan to obtain the goods if they failed their stealth roll and force them to find another way, probably the way that was designed into the encounter.
However, ...
At least one other party member will have a good score in perception and if someone helps them they get to roll with advantage. So if your primary choices for expertise are stealth and perception then I wonder if expertise in perception is worth giving up expertise in thieves tools. And this gets to one of my bothersome areas in D&D. Are you picking perception just so you can be the best at perception in your party and get more attention, or are you picking it over expertise with thieves tools because you think the party needs you to have more expertise with perception? The only time YOU need a high perception modifier is when you need to make the check alone, and we're only talking about the difference between proficiency and expertise, which is an extra plus from your proficiency score.
Our rogue is currently using sleight-of-hand every chance he gets, tries to stealth almost every combat encounter, hide, backstab, surprise and occasionally deceive the other party members so he may keep a bigger share of the treasure for himself. In his case, stealth and sleight-of-hand might be the best choices.
As a spell caster, I look at my spell list and the list of my partners and I ask them if they are going to take this spell or that spell. If I see something I can't get on their list, I ask them if they would want to take it to help the party. But if I had a spell that I was going to use often (and thereby get attention) but another caster was going to take it, I would talk to them and ask if we both should have it or if I can find something also useful for the party. I'd give up the glory to support the whole team.
At the end of the day, build your character the way you want. But communicate that with your party and the DM so they can make the appropriate adjustments based on that.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Yeah it’s more a matter of what is starting L1 expertise. For the double proficiency. I’m hearing enough support for it so expertise in stealth or perception and tools is what many are suggesting
I tend to go expertise in tools and perception first as it makes up for the lower Wisdom stat bonus. Dex is generally high enough. Then pick up stealth and something else at lvl 6. Generally traps are hidden and you need to find them before you can disarm them.
My assassin char took expertise in Stealth and Deception at lv 1 and then Perception and Insight at level 6. Usually i can take my time on locks, or someone in the party can force them open through force or Knock spell.
Usually i can take my time on locks, or someone in the party can force them open through force or Knock spell.
Pretty much this. The general consensus in my group is, oh that lock is going to be opened one way or another.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The big time that thief tools come into play, I've found, is if you're somewhere that you need to be silent and still open a lock. Basically, when you need to be sneaky! Sneak attack, stealthy, quiet lock picking, getting past traps while resetting it behind you... sneaky sneak stuff. The Rogue is basically all about being sneaky.
If you're not trying to be sneaky, brute force, magic, or other ways can work just as well. So, I don't really consider Thief Tools to be a critical thing to have.
Honestly... depends if your DM just has you make sleight of hand checks for pick locking or they actually have you do tool checks
Sleight of hand doesn't open locks or fix traps so why would any DM do that?
I understand that but I've seen few of DMs play it out that way either because they don't understand how tool checks works or they would rather stream line it that way. I've done what I can to try to help out those DMs when I play, but doesn't always work.
Honestly... depends if your DM just has you make sleight of hand checks for pick locking or they actually have you do tool checks
Sleight of hand doesn't open locks or fix traps so why would any DM do that?
Part of the problem is that sleight of hand and thieves' tools proficiency are often the same. DMs that are tired of telling their players how to calculate proficiency will often ask for something that is equal to what they actually want. This results in the players (and audiences in the case of podcasts) being trained that the lock gets opened with sleight of hand.
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I realized I asked a question in someone else’s thread. Not likely a good thing to do, it was related but I deleted it and moved it to my own.
Made a new character for a starting 5th level campaign, took rogue and then moved to monk at level 4. I’m not sure exactly of the setting so made the character I wanted to play not knowing anything. Also new to 5e. I played in early to late 1980s.
backgroud was prior life as a new assassin led to misfortune and a new recovery and dedication to this new order. Now after years he is back out in service.
i didn’t initially think that an agent by day, assassin by night would prioritize thieves tools expertise over stealth and perception however.
for future characters I create if I’m going to be any form of rogue, is expertise in thieves tools a party must?
I wouldn't say it's an outright must, but if the game has lots of traps and locks for you to deal with it's certainly useful.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I prioritize stealth over thieves tools; however, it tends to differ game-by-game.
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Why would you go monk at level 4? Take rogue to 5, that way you get an ASI and cunning action. Either way, thieves tools is good for dungeon and urban campaigns, but useless in wilderness campaigns.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
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I can't imagine playing a Rogue without expertise in Thieves Tools. You're expected to fill that role for your party. Isn't there enough room in your build to take it in Stealth and Thieves Tools and Proficiency in the other skills with your high Dex? In part it depends on your DM. If he doesn't give you any locks to pick then ... That would be like a DM letting a Ranger select Mountains as their favored terrain and then writing the whole campaign in a Swamp. I can think of a lot of reasons an assassin would want to pick a lock.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Even if you're out in the wilds, there ought to be traps to disarm and treasure chests to unlock in most campaigns.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah it’s more a matter of what is starting L1 expertise. For the double proficiency. I’m hearing enough support for it so expertise in stealth or perception and tools is what many are suggesting
My experience is that perception and stealth are used more than thieves tools. I was in another thread recently and someone asked a similar question and it really made me start to think, because my initial thought was that stealth and thieves tools were a pretty obvious set of choices to make. Then I started to think about how much my groups actually /need/ to use thieves tools, and the answer is "not very often". Stealth and Perception are used multiple times, nearly every session.
I think if I ever build a rogue for myself to play, I won't pick expertise in thieves tools. I'm going to pick the skills that experience has told me I am going to use the most.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If the DCs of traps and locks are set before you start play, expertise in thieves' tools might be worthwhile. However, since that's generally only true of modules, and modules don't assume a rogue, DCs are usually reasonable for someone with proficiency and 14ish dex, so just by focusing on your dex you tend to be ahead of the curve. For groups where the DM is setting the DCs, they will most likely be based on the rogue's bonus, so having a higher bonus doesn't actually help you. Perception will typically make a larger difference as DCs (or stealth rolls) are typically set based on monster stats or the whole group's perception.
Also, unless you're in a dangerous situation, there's not really a penalty for failing to pick a lock, so just keep trying until you succeed.
Depends. Some GMs only allow a certain number of tries on a given lock and say that you either jam it or can't figure out how to pick it if you fail to make it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I never take Expertise in thieves’ tools. If it was a whole burglar campaign then maybe, but otherwise not so much.
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I have also been thinking further about this question. And it is really about the DM.
If you can't pick the lock there are other ways of overcoming the problem. You can break the door down. You can use acid to burn open the lock. You can break the hinges (sometimes). So a failure to pick the lock is not a dead end, and if it is, the DM has screwed the party.
Likewise, if the DM dials up the DC for locks because your party has a rogue, and worse because the rogue picked expertise in thieves tools, then the DM is effectively taking away your agency to build your character. I never hear of a DM artificially raising the AC of all monsters after you get a +1 sword, but I suppose it can happen. Heck, maybe all monsters get multi-attack after your party reaches level 5 too.
But the real point I find persuasive is that there should be another way to overcome the locked door or locked chest so expertise in thieves tools is just a convenience. But on the other hand, I could see a DM 'shutting down' a party's plan to obtain the goods if they failed their stealth roll and force them to find another way, probably the way that was designed into the encounter.
However, ...
At least one other party member will have a good score in perception and if someone helps them they get to roll with advantage. So if your primary choices for expertise are stealth and perception then I wonder if expertise in perception is worth giving up expertise in thieves tools. And this gets to one of my bothersome areas in D&D. Are you picking perception just so you can be the best at perception in your party and get more attention, or are you picking it over expertise with thieves tools because you think the party needs you to have more expertise with perception? The only time YOU need a high perception modifier is when you need to make the check alone, and we're only talking about the difference between proficiency and expertise, which is an extra plus from your proficiency score.
Our rogue is currently using sleight-of-hand every chance he gets, tries to stealth almost every combat encounter, hide, backstab, surprise and occasionally deceive the other party members so he may keep a bigger share of the treasure for himself. In his case, stealth and sleight-of-hand might be the best choices.
As a spell caster, I look at my spell list and the list of my partners and I ask them if they are going to take this spell or that spell. If I see something I can't get on their list, I ask them if they would want to take it to help the party. But if I had a spell that I was going to use often (and thereby get attention) but another caster was going to take it, I would talk to them and ask if we both should have it or if I can find something also useful for the party. I'd give up the glory to support the whole team.
At the end of the day, build your character the way you want. But communicate that with your party and the DM so they can make the appropriate adjustments based on that.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I tend to go expertise in tools and perception first as it makes up for the lower Wisdom stat bonus. Dex is generally high enough. Then pick up stealth and something else at lvl 6. Generally traps are hidden and you need to find them before you can disarm them.
My assassin char took expertise in Stealth and Deception at lv 1 and then Perception and Insight at level 6. Usually i can take my time on locks, or someone in the party can force them open through force or Knock spell.
Pretty much this. The general consensus in my group is, oh that lock is going to be opened one way or another.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Honestly... depends if your DM just has you make sleight of hand checks for pick locking or they actually have you do tool checks
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Sleight of hand doesn't open locks or fix traps so why would any DM do that?
The big time that thief tools come into play, I've found, is if you're somewhere that you need to be silent and still open a lock. Basically, when you need to be sneaky! Sneak attack, stealthy, quiet lock picking, getting past traps while resetting it behind you... sneaky sneak stuff. The Rogue is basically all about being sneaky.
If you're not trying to be sneaky, brute force, magic, or other ways can work just as well. So, I don't really consider Thief Tools to be a critical thing to have.
I understand that but I've seen few of DMs play it out that way either because they don't understand how tool checks works or they would rather stream line it that way. I've done what I can to try to help out those DMs when I play, but doesn't always work.
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Most Popular Homebrew: Nephilim (Aasimar-Tielfling) - Race
Newest Homebrew: Image Distortion - 1st-Level Illusion Spell
Part of the problem is that sleight of hand and thieves' tools proficiency are often the same. DMs that are tired of telling their players how to calculate proficiency will often ask for something that is equal to what they actually want. This results in the players (and audiences in the case of podcasts) being trained that the lock gets opened with sleight of hand.