We do not speak of what came between 3.x and 5ed... we-we were young and foolish... it-it was all a dream... you making it up... it never happened!!!! (WotC, probably)
4th ed was a HUGE mistake, under every possible point of view, it didn't bring anything to the game, if not concepts that are now completely different and remain only as that, concepts that were horribly implemented the first time around.
And as for the Sorcerer, again, I don't have anything against it, its an interesting concept thematically, its even passable mechanically (I have been playing a wild mage in our current game, it has its moments), I just don't fully understand the point of making yet another mage concept in a seemingly endless see of mage concepts. We already have so many at this point every caster class is basically completely redundant.
Different basic mechanic of the class. It would be quite hard to have only one caster class and have it behave, through sub classes I'd guess, as wizard, or as sorceror or as warlock depending on a single choice that adds 4/5 features along 20 levels. If anything, imho, each arcane caster class is quite distinct from one another, especially between Sorceror and Wizard (warlock feels more like an hybrid class in the end to me). In 3.x the Sorceror and the Wizard were exactly the same, with the only difference in how many and how each prepared (or didn't prepare) spells. Now we have a more net distinction, as metamagic feats are only available to the Sorceror, and each specialisation school for the Wizard is extremely interesting and opening up much more customisation than a simple bonus to a certain school of magic as it was in 3.x (I am still amazed by how versatile and powerful Divination can be).
At least this is how I see it: we have 3 basic arcane caster classes because we have 3 distinct ways of being magic users, which would otherwise be extremely difficult to implement with a "simple" subclass.
I find it kind of ironic that you think we can do lots of things with Meta Magic by being creative, but for some reason it's impossible with say Maneuvers.
Hm? Maneuvers are awesome, I don't know what you're talking about. I never said that maneuvers weren't creative, but rather they are constrained within a single class. That's just how the 5e D&D classes are set up. And if you want them outside of the Fighter class? There's a feat for it! Personally, I love the Battlemaster and all the things you can do with it. But its still just one class.
You are confusing talking about how to improve a single class, with addressing complaints about class variety. Maneuvers do not address the "lack of martial classes" issue being discussed.
I think a lot of the discussion around magic has to do with the fact that their is a tendency to presume a fighter is a one dimensional theme, aka a variation on the same principle (I swing a weapon) in particular given that the other 65+ sub-classes of casters are just variations on the Wizard (I cast a spell). For some reason we can come up with endless ways to define what a spell attack is but we can't conceive fighters being able to execute anything else but "a generic attack".
Kind of part of my point. Both "I swing a weapon" and "I cast a spell" is followed by the question "what type?" Fighters can use all weapons, and most warrior types use a wide variety of weapons each. Each spell class is defined by their collection of spells. There are feats for variety of weapon swinging. For the most part, if you want to shake up your magic options, you have to go to another magic class.
Other fantasy games I've played have a different take on the "I swing a weapon" classes. Rather than having each class use most weapons, instead each class focused around using one style of weapon really well. There was no Fighter equivalent. And that did open up a lot more martial classes, which did have a nice variety of techniques to address each different style weapon, and different ways of using it. But, again, that's not how 5e works - the sword part of Sword and Sorcery relies on a mix of feats and weapon choice on top of class, whereas the sorcery part just has class. If you want more sword classes, then you're going to have to give something up for it. Lock out feats, narrow down weapon choices.
Also, to be honest? Spells have a lot of repeats within them. How many variations of fireball are there from cantrips to 9? How many Detect X spells do we need? Honestly, I think we could combine almost all Illusion spells into three, and tweak the scaling.
One thing that irks me more than anything though is the fact that in fantasy writing, magic is almost always limited, the stuff of legend, folk lore, rarely seen and even when it does appear its the stuff of wonder.
With all due respect, then you either need to either read more fantasy writing, or realize that other kinds of fantasy writing exists. Tolkien and Martin are both part of the low fantasy sub-genres. There are whole hosts of other genres that include far more casual use of magic, legendary figures and folk lore being common place.
One of my favorite fantasy stories, right now, is called Two Necromancers, an Elf and a Bureaucrat. Timmy and his apprentice (the titular necromancers) live in a castle filled with eldritch abominations they regularly chat with over cake, make horrific abominations in no small part for bragging rights to other necromancers at the gatherings, and engage in a variety of silly, magical hijinks. The elf is pyromaniac that likes to burn down trees and forests, and the bureaucrat uses spacial magic to deal with carrying contraband, paperwork, and other silly random items that pop up out of nowhere for comedic value. This is undoubtedly a fantasy story, but it certainly does not have limited magic, and the appearance of magic is treated as common place.
If we're going to talk about popular fantasy stories? Harry Potter, Narnia, Discworld, the Wizard of Oz series, the Xanth series, and Enchanted Forest Chronicles all come to mind.
I blame the popularity of Eastern Martial Arts. In the media, the vast majority of images of students training is 30 white-suited students endlessly repeating the same punch. Kendo matches are predominantly two old guys touching canes for ten minutes before one launches a diagonal cut to his opponent's head, which is blocked and immediately followed up with the aggressor taking a whack to his own bonce. "Kick boxing" is 90% about grabbing the other fighter around the back of the neck and applying repeated introductions of padded knee to increasingly mangled face.
Not that the Europeans are any better - Take fencing - ignoring sabre, there are two attacks available; Straight arm thrust (Does exactly what it says on the tin) and the Lunge, which is basically a straight arm thrust, but a bit longer. And the Fleche, which is basically where you attempt a lunge, trip over your own foot and try to recover some dignity by pretending you meant to do it. Sabre spices it up slightly by having a move where you expose your armpit and leading side to a straight arm thrust by raising the blade prior to a cutting attack that is so telegraphed that Stevie Wonder would see it coming!
On a side note, this reminds me of something. Its interesting to note that one of the reason that Eastern Martial Arts are so popular compared to European? For the most part, European Martial Arts were lost to time. You see stories about lost scrolls of eastern martial arts, rediscovering ancient techniques? Well, we actually have those in Europe as well. They fell out of use, got damaged, etc. And we do have modern groups attempting to reconstruct them (Historical European Martial Arts group, for one), but it hasn't really soaked into popular culture or awareness like others have.
That might be no small reason why we have less variety here - a large amount of that kind of information and stories simply haven't survived to the modern day.
One thing that irks me more than anything though is the fact that in fantasy writing, magic is almost always limited, the stuff of legend, folk lore, rarely seen and even when it does appear its the stuff of wonder.
With all due respect, then you either need to either read more fantasy writing, or realize that other kinds of fantasy writing exists. Tolkien and Martin are both part of the low fantasy sub-genres. There are whole hosts of other genres that include far more casual use of magic, legendary figures and folk lore being common place.
One of my favorite fantasy stories, right now, is called Two Necromancers, an Elf and a Bureaucrat. Timmy and his apprentice (the titular necromancers) live in a castle filled with eldritch abominations they regularly chat with over cake, make horrific abominations in no small part for bragging rights to other necromancers at the gatherings, and engage in a variety of silly, magical hijinks. The elf is pyromaniac that likes to burn down trees and forests, and the bureaucrat uses spacial magic to deal with carrying contraband, paperwork, and other silly random items that pop up out of nowhere for comedic value. This is undoubtedly a fantasy story, but it certainly does not have limited magic, and the appearance of magic is treated as common place.
If we're going to talk about popular fantasy stories? Harry Potter, Narnia, Discworld, the Wizard of Oz series, the Xanth series, and Enchanted Forest Chronicles all come to mind.
And then there are the low-magic worlds where almost all the main characters use some form of magic, like Valdemar and, arguably (because, in my limited experience with the series, most of the main characters ride around on telepathic, teleporting, time-traveling dragons), McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series. I don't know much about the urban fantasy sub-genre, but every good series I've ever read that could be considered urban fantasy fit that profile.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
For modern urban fantasy you have The Dresden Files which is a very good one, or The Gentlemen Bastard series, which is a peculiar kind of fantasy, and one where almost all magic users are either part of a mageocratic nation (much like the Thay in the Forgotten realms) or dead.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I don't think "Fighter who mixes martial mastery with magic" is a lazy concept at all, and its frankly one of the Fighter class inclusions I like. With the focus on Evocation and Abjuration, its a clearly defined class that its meant for battle, supplementing melee attacks with magic. Compare to the Bladesinger that is still a primary casting class that leans in the opposite direction, where it has some melee ability.
We already have so many at this point every caster class is basically completely redundant.
As someone who has played about every caster class in the game at this point, I couldn't disagree with this statement more.
We already have so many at this point every caster class is basically completely redundant.
As someone who has played about every caster class in the game at this point, I couldn't disagree with this statement more.
I still need to play a bard sometime. On a slightly more relevant note, I disagree with BigKahuna's statement because it's absurd; if every caster class is redundant, then, by the definition of redundant, having caster classes at all is unnecessary.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Bards are super fun. Very much a support class, but the times I've played them, they've always been a pretty clutch class. 5e has been very kind to them. Only caster class I've played that I wasn't too keen on was Warlocks. Their spell slots take a lot more time to get used to then how everyone else progresses.
Honestly, the only spell casters I can say that feel similar to play as are the Sorcerer and Wizard, partially because they're (largely) expected to fill similar roles. I infinitely prefer sorcerers (I like Metamagic more, and I never enjoyed...anything about Wizards. Ever.), but of the five big casters you can play as, those two are the closest in play style.
We already have so many at this point every caster class is basically completely redundant.
As someone who has played about every caster class in the game at this point, I couldn't disagree with this statement more.
I still need to play a bard sometime. On a slightly more relevant note, I disagree with BigKahuna's statement because it's absurd; if every caster class is redundant, then, by the definition of redundant, having caster classes at all is unnecessary.
I read the Big K's comment more as "Any single caster class/subclass could vanish without a major impact on the game." In which case I agree.............. Except for the wizard - some archetypes just have to stay.
" by the definition of redundant, having caster classes at all is unnecessary. " Perhaps he meant "literally redundant." Or maybe these days, "redundant" means "absolutely vital" ? OK, climbing down from my soapbox - the altitude is making me dizzy. :)
The question that The Big K and I have to consider is "Who brings a knife to a gun fight?" Fighters, unless they are dumb brutes, should consider all weapons before going into combat, and choose (where possible) an appropriate one. In a world where magic is available to all hero types, ALL fighters should have some kind of magical aptitude, if only as a backup plan.
"Who brings a knife to a gun fight?" - The fighter does, strapped to his leg and another three in a bandolier across his chest. Maybe one between his shoulder blades or along the stock of his crossbow.
Sorcerers : I probably don't really understand the archetypal sorcerer, as whenever I think of sorcerers, I think of Deadpool. (Yeah, The Deadpool, Wade Wilson. ) At first, second, and maybe third glance, clearly not a sorcerer, but I think he has the heart, soul, character, and general sociopathic attitude I think sorcerers should have. And a really cool outfit!)
On some things we will have to agree to disagree. One thing I will say is that, again, I don't think there is anything wrong with what is there in terms of classes and sub-classes, i think they all have their place Eldritch Knight included. My issue is with what was missing at launch with the PHB and is missing today and how WoTc has prioritized what is important for the game in terms of class/sub-class support. I find it odd that there is an unwillingness by so many forum posters here to admit that given that we have 72 total sub-classes of which 60 are spell casters (aka mages of one sort or another) that there isn't a clear unbalances of choices for players who want to play martial classes. That when WotC was making the Fighter Class and its sub-class, one of the very few in the entire game that are very clearly martial classes, they still insisted on using one of those precious 3 sub-classes to make yet another bloody mage.
I mean there are some claims that there are only so many ways to make a martial class which I would argue is kind of false, I could easily create 60 specific concepts of a fighter class. Most (myself included) would argue that you could "fit" those concepts into the existing martial classes and its a perfectly reasonable argument but I would say the same is true with all of the variations on the mage concepts. The difference is that official, WoTc creates those specific sub-classes for the unique "mage concept" by creating specific mechanics to give those concepts more life and they simply don't do it for martial classes.
Take for example The Amazon, Gladiator, Dragon Slayer, Mercernary, Warlord, Guardian, Enforcer, Pugelist, Tactician.... I could do this all day, any one of those could be a dedicated sub-class but you could just as easily fit them into existing profiles like Fighter, Barbarian or Rogue. Yet we got sub-classes like the Samurai, Cavalier and Purple Dragon Knight all of which concepts that could have easily fit into existing classes. Why? Because someone decided, "hey you know what would be cool, a Samurai sub-class".
All I'm saying is that people in WoTc are sitting up conceiving of all kinds of ways to make yet another mage specific sub-classes and they don't do it for martial classes, this isn't some inability to design or come up with concepts, or some sort of "end" that they have reached with what can be done with martial classes. Its simply a choice to not do it and to me its kind of bizzare that everyone looks at the 7 to 1 ratio of mages vs. fighters in the game, shrugs their shoulders and says "yeah this is all perfectly balanced and normal, nothing to see here".
Martial classes got the shit end of the stick, if you want to make a warrior, your sub-class options are super limited, if you want to make a mage, you have a massive library to choose from.
You know what? You're right about there being a vast amount of unexplored conceptual design space for nonmages. There are a few problems, though.
First, conceptual design space does not translate into mechanical design space--at least, not for D&D 5e martial classes and subclasses. Part of that is probably because the 5e fighter is so much of a generalist already.
An Amazon is basically just an excessively fierce female warrior, right? What is mechanically unique about that concept, and how do you do it without offending too many people? Maybe you could do a barbarian or ranger subclass, I suppose, but you still have to find a mechanical interpretation of the base concept.
There are two Gladiators in the PHB: one of the example fighters in the class' description--evidently a Battle Master--and a rather underwhelming variant of the Entertainer background. Again, I ask you, "What is mechanically unique about the concept?"
Dragon Slayer? Okay. First off, why isn't it just a ranger with dragons as their Favored Enemy? Because it's a knight in shining armor--like a Cavalier fighter--or a paladin--but those two don't work, because then you don't get Favored Enemy. Okay, there's something there, but not necessarily all that much of something.
Mercenary? That's a background in SCAG.
What is it a Warlord--or Guardian--does that can't be handled by a Battle Master or Purple Dragon Knight fighter, a paladin, a War cleric, an Ancestral Guardian barbarian, a Mastermind rogue, etc.?
If by Enforcer you mean Str-based rogue, then yes, I'd say that's a unique enough concept to be worth pursuing.
Likewise, no one at WotC seems to want to explore the Strength-based-unarmed-combatant design space.
Yes, I want a nonmagical Tactician subclass that isn't a Battle Master, but I'm not terribly optimistic about there being enough mechanical design space for a good, balanced one.
Second, there's also a vast amount of unexplored conceptual design space for mages, and there will continue to be for quite some time. For one thing, anything a deity can claim influence over can potentially be a cleric subclass. And sorcerers get almost as many potential subclasses as clerics--well, not really, but they still get quite a few.
Third, there's much more mechanical design space for mages, because it's magic.
As personal opinion, I think that the lack of purely martial archetypes (as there indeed is a numerical unbalance, not denying that) might also be due to something as simple as: create and balance a martial class is "easier" compared to creating and balancing a spell-capable sub-class (at least in my opinion/limited experience). If we take this into consideration, it would not be so strange, albeit still in a way saddening, that WotC tries to give official balanced sub-classes covering those possible spell-capable concepts people seem to be interested into.
I also believe that, if they are going this way, their own market researches (I am inclined to believe they actually have a look around to what people might be interested into, and not just decide on personal, close circle whims) point to this kind of concepts being the ones people are most interested into, probably because they feel exotic and strange (or maybe they ask only 15 years olds, not sure). In the end, the lack of OFFICIAL martial-only concepts is a fact, again not denying that, but since martial-only subclasses are a little easier to conceptualise, develop and balace, we have the power and the means to create them, as much as we would like for WotC to give official support (which I understand becomes a problem when one takes into consideration AL play).
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
. I find it odd that there is an unwillingness by so many forum posters here to admit that given that we have 72 total sub-classes of which 60 are spell casters (aka mages of one sort or another) that there isn't a clear unbalances of choices for players who want to play martial classes.
I'm unwilling because, by my count, there's at least 17 subclasses without the ability to cast spells of any shape, not 12. I also am unwilling because I don't consider shadow monks, path of the totem, or the like to be mages simply because they have a spell or two in their subclass, and really should be added to that previous 17. I'm also unwilling to dismiss the clear bias towards warrior types in feats, where over 50% deal exclusively with armor or weaponry use. I'm also willing to acknowledge that a very significant chunk of those 72 subclasses are specifically for wizards and clerics, who have way too many and skew the results. I am also unwilling to divide things up into just two groups - full caster, non-caster, and half/third casters should be the groupings, as half-casters are still primarily warriors, and thus should not be considered to be remotely similar to the play-styles of a full caster.
I mean there are some claims that there are only so many ways to make a martial class which I would argue is kind of false, I could easily create 60 specific concepts of a fighter class.
Then do so. And not just names. Write out what abilities each would have.
I’d remove the Spell focus feature and call it Eschew Materials:
A Sorcerer does not need spell components for any spell with a material component that does not have a good piece value.
I’d may even go a step father and remove material component requirement for any spell Sorcerer cast regardless of Gold value, but that can get more tricky unless the spell list was carefully monitored, especially with Divine Soul having access to Resurection.
The major criticism for a Sorcerer is that it lacks the sheer amount of spells and magical flexibility of a Wizard, who admittedly is able to apply magic to nearly any given situation for the best results.
But those who favor Sorcerer counter that, while a Wizard may have more spells to choose from, a Sorcerer can take what few spells they have and "bolster" or "upgrade" them in ways a Wizard can't...that's your metamagics. Casting "Fireball" or "Lightning Bolt" twice...using "Hypnotic Shape" or "Suggestion" without any verbal or physical command for stealth...things like that.
BUT...! These metamagics are restricted somewhat by the use of "Sorcery Points", which are limited in number until you perform a rest. Depending on what metamagics you use, you may find that you use most of them for one encounter, and then when faced with another threat, find that you are in short supply when you really need them. There is a skill I believe that lets you get more sorcery points by burning up a spell slot, but that is a red alert for a lot of people, considering spell slots are treasured by people who like spellcasters.
So, based on your question...I think a way for Sorcerers to "improve" is to find a alternative way to create more Sorcery points, without limiting their spell slots. I might suggest something similar to a Wizard's "Arcane Traditions"...A Sorcerer who specializes in a certain type of magic receives bonus Sorcery Points, but is unable to cast certain types of spells...or is unable to use Sorcery Points for them. For example: An Evocation Sorcerer would receive bonus Sorcery Points to use for Evocation Spells, but then cannot use them for Conjuration spells, or cannot use Conjuration spells until a short or long rest. The Sorcerer is free to use their favorite type of spells, more frequently, and more powerfully...at the expense of certain spells being blocked until later.
You could even design a subclass around the concept...perhaps the Sorcerer channels are particular type of magic based on their ancestry...perhaps they are descended from Fey and possess a specialty towards Enchantment spells...or perhaps an Elemental or djinn is part of their bloodline, and thus they focus more strongly on Evocation spells...by "channeling" that particular skill, they are more proficient with them, but block the capability of using other types of spells.
Or maybe get even crazier...perhaps they are "Astral" Sorcerers...capable of acquiring bonuses to their preferred types of spells by leaving their bodies when they sleep, and seeking hidden knowledge in their dreams. You could build it around short and long rests...more Sorcery Points for a type of magic after every short rest; more Sorcery Points for TWO types of magic for every long rest. Perhaps even a "Panic Button" skill for when a Sorcerer is knocked unconscious...maybe their spirit leaves their body and continues fighting in some capacity. Lots of potential there.
I’d remove the Spell focus feature and call it Eschew Materials:
A Sorcerer does not need spell components for any spell with a material component that does not have a good piece value.
I’d may even go a step father and remove material component requirement for any spell Sorcerer cast regardless of Gold value, but that can get more tricky unless the spell list was carefully monitored, especially with Divine Soul having access to Resurection.
I agree. It's seems counter intuitive for someone with innate magic ability to need material components.
Unfortunately, Mike Mearls has gone on record saying that they're unwilling to commit to using other Sorcery Points and have them take away from Metamagic. I mean I get it, its a limited resource, but I like having more toys to play with.
...perhaps they are descended from Fey and possess a specialty towards Enchantment spells...or perhaps an Elemental or djinn is part of their bloodline, and thus they focus more strongly on Evocation spells...by "channeling" that particular skill, they are more proficient with them, but block the capability of using other types of spells.
Unfortunately, sorting spells out by School is the wizards hat entirely. A Sorcerer wouldn't probably label their own abilities under schools, because for them, its just something they can do. Plus, some bits are more synergistic with a Sorcerers Metamagic already, so if a Sorcerer was all about beguiling people, Heightened and Subtle spell is something they'd be more likely to utilize.
At my table we use Sterling Vermin's Revised Sorcerer, which mainly implements the spell point system as a minor buff and huge feel change for the sorcerer. I really think that they messed up in not making that the default approach to the sorcerer, it fixes their lack of power relative to other casters without overshooting them and it emphasizes the flexibility sorcerers are known for. If that were default Sorcerers would pretty much be my favorite class, no competition.
" I've heard a number of people say that the sorcerer isn't as good a choice as the wizard."
For what?
The sorcerer rides a Harley (without a crash helmet), never finished school, stays out late, swears, drinks neat vodka,carries three flick knives and is known for a fiery temper. His nickname, in contrast is "IceMan."
The wizard is a middle-aged accountant with an interest in family trees, gardening, and etymology. He likes to watch Antiques Roadshow and drives a nissan cashcow which he insists on pronouncing Kash-Kai as though it makes him cooler. He owns an entire set of Encyclopedia Brittanica and has a train set in the attic. If he even had a nick name, it would be "Goose."
Nate "Hellequin" Garrett Vs Gandalf "the Grey"? No contest.
If there was a different way to treat some of the sorcs most potent powers to not be dependent on the dm. Subtle meta magic is the most broken thing in the game but you’d never know since most dms don’t enforce the things that make it so strong. Wild magic, the DM can break the main reason to play it. There’s gotta be a way to get those things not so Iffy on dm style of play.
id also like to see them Not force everyone to play fire sorc when they pick a dragon. Let’s get some other element spells in the roster at higher levels.
" I've heard a number of people say that the sorcerer isn't as good a choice as the wizard."
For what?
The sorcerer rides a Harley (without a crash helmet), never finished school, stays out late, swears, drinks neat vodka,carries three flick knives and is known for a fiery temper. His nickname, in contrast is "IceMan."
The wizard is a middle-aged accountant with an interest in family trees, gardening, and etymology. He likes to watch Antiques Roadshow and drives a nissan cashcow which he insists on pronouncing Kash-Kai as though it makes him cooler. He owns an entire set of Encyclopedia Brittanica and has a train set in the attic. If he even had a nick name, it would be "Goose."
Nate "Hellequin" Garrett Vs Gandalf "the Grey"? No contest.
We've a wiz and a sorc (me) in one of my current games and it's the other way around. She (wiz) basically got expelled for being a bit too focused on the whole ultimate power thing. He is a criminal who used his powers for spying and being sneaky more than anything else, and when it comes to dealing damage he struggles to control it, so he only uses it as a last resort. Both of them have accidentally killed people they shouldn't have. One felt guilty about it and asked the Cleric to bring them back, the other just said 'whoops' as she accidentally murdered a large group of tied up prisoners. We're a mostly good party ...mostly.
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We do not speak of what came between 3.x and 5ed... we-we were young and foolish... it-it was all a dream... you making it up... it never happened!!!! (WotC, probably)
4th ed was a HUGE mistake, under every possible point of view, it didn't bring anything to the game, if not concepts that are now completely different and remain only as that, concepts that were horribly implemented the first time around.
Different basic mechanic of the class.
It would be quite hard to have only one caster class and have it behave, through sub classes I'd guess, as wizard, or as sorceror or as warlock depending on a single choice that adds 4/5 features along 20 levels.
If anything, imho, each arcane caster class is quite distinct from one another, especially between Sorceror and Wizard (warlock feels more like an hybrid class in the end to me). In 3.x the Sorceror and the Wizard were exactly the same, with the only difference in how many and how each prepared (or didn't prepare) spells.
Now we have a more net distinction, as metamagic feats are only available to the Sorceror, and each specialisation school for the Wizard is extremely interesting and opening up much more customisation than a simple bonus to a certain school of magic as it was in 3.x (I am still amazed by how versatile and powerful Divination can be).
At least this is how I see it: we have 3 basic arcane caster classes because we have 3 distinct ways of being magic users, which would otherwise be extremely difficult to implement with a "simple" subclass.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Kind of part of my point. Both "I swing a weapon" and "I cast a spell" is followed by the question "what type?" Fighters can use all weapons, and most warrior types use a wide variety of weapons each. Each spell class is defined by their collection of spells. There are feats for variety of weapon swinging. For the most part, if you want to shake up your magic options, you have to go to another magic class.
Other fantasy games I've played have a different take on the "I swing a weapon" classes. Rather than having each class use most weapons, instead each class focused around using one style of weapon really well. There was no Fighter equivalent. And that did open up a lot more martial classes, which did have a nice variety of techniques to address each different style weapon, and different ways of using it. But, again, that's not how 5e works - the sword part of Sword and Sorcery relies on a mix of feats and weapon choice on top of class, whereas the sorcery part just has class. If you want more sword classes, then you're going to have to give something up for it. Lock out feats, narrow down weapon choices.
Also, to be honest? Spells have a lot of repeats within them. How many variations of fireball are there from cantrips to 9? How many Detect X spells do we need? Honestly, I think we could combine almost all Illusion spells into three, and tweak the scaling.
With all due respect, then you either need to either read more fantasy writing, or realize that other kinds of fantasy writing exists. Tolkien and Martin are both part of the low fantasy sub-genres. There are whole hosts of other genres that include far more casual use of magic, legendary figures and folk lore being common place.
One of my favorite fantasy stories, right now, is called Two Necromancers, an Elf and a Bureaucrat. Timmy and his apprentice (the titular necromancers) live in a castle filled with eldritch abominations they regularly chat with over cake, make horrific abominations in no small part for bragging rights to other necromancers at the gatherings, and engage in a variety of silly, magical hijinks. The elf is pyromaniac that likes to burn down trees and forests, and the bureaucrat uses spacial magic to deal with carrying contraband, paperwork, and other silly random items that pop up out of nowhere for comedic value. This is undoubtedly a fantasy story, but it certainly does not have limited magic, and the appearance of magic is treated as common place.
If we're going to talk about popular fantasy stories? Harry Potter, Narnia, Discworld, the Wizard of Oz series, the Xanth series, and Enchanted Forest Chronicles all come to mind.
On a side note, this reminds me of something. Its interesting to note that one of the reason that Eastern Martial Arts are so popular compared to European? For the most part, European Martial Arts were lost to time. You see stories about lost scrolls of eastern martial arts, rediscovering ancient techniques? Well, we actually have those in Europe as well. They fell out of use, got damaged, etc. And we do have modern groups attempting to reconstruct them (Historical European Martial Arts group, for one), but it hasn't really soaked into popular culture or awareness like others have.
That might be no small reason why we have less variety here - a large amount of that kind of information and stories simply haven't survived to the modern day.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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For modern urban fantasy you have The Dresden Files which is a very good one, or The Gentlemen Bastard series, which is a peculiar kind of fantasy, and one where almost all magic users are either part of a mageocratic nation (much like the Thay in the Forgotten realms) or dead.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I don't think "Fighter who mixes martial mastery with magic" is a lazy concept at all, and its frankly one of the Fighter class inclusions I like. With the focus on Evocation and Abjuration, its a clearly defined class that its meant for battle, supplementing melee attacks with magic. Compare to the Bladesinger that is still a primary casting class that leans in the opposite direction, where it has some melee ability.
As someone who has played about every caster class in the game at this point, I couldn't disagree with this statement more.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Bards are super fun. Very much a support class, but the times I've played them, they've always been a pretty clutch class. 5e has been very kind to them. Only caster class I've played that I wasn't too keen on was Warlocks. Their spell slots take a lot more time to get used to then how everyone else progresses.
Honestly, the only spell casters I can say that feel similar to play as are the Sorcerer and Wizard, partially because they're (largely) expected to fill similar roles. I infinitely prefer sorcerers (I like Metamagic more, and I never enjoyed...anything about Wizards. Ever.), but of the five big casters you can play as, those two are the closest in play style.
Perhaps he meant "literally redundant." Or maybe these days, "redundant" means "absolutely vital" ?
OK, climbing down from my soapbox - the altitude is making me dizzy. :)
Fighters, unless they are dumb brutes, should consider all weapons before going into combat, and choose (where possible) an appropriate one. In a world where magic is available to all hero types, ALL fighters should have some kind of magical aptitude, if only as a backup plan.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Second, there's also a vast amount of unexplored conceptual design space for mages, and there will continue to be for quite some time. For one thing, anything a deity can claim influence over can potentially be a cleric subclass. And sorcerers get almost as many potential subclasses as clerics--well, not really, but they still get quite a few.
Third, there's much more mechanical design space for mages, because it's magic.
On a rather unrelated note, why don't you go talk to the people who think spellcasting is under-represented because more races get bonuses to physical stats than mental stats?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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As personal opinion, I think that the lack of purely martial archetypes (as there indeed is a numerical unbalance, not denying that) might also be due to something as simple as: create and balance a martial class is "easier" compared to creating and balancing a spell-capable sub-class (at least in my opinion/limited experience).
If we take this into consideration, it would not be so strange, albeit still in a way saddening, that WotC tries to give official balanced sub-classes covering those possible spell-capable concepts people seem to be interested into.
I also believe that, if they are going this way, their own market researches (I am inclined to believe they actually have a look around to what people might be interested into, and not just decide on personal, close circle whims) point to this kind of concepts being the ones people are most interested into, probably because they feel exotic and strange (or maybe they ask only 15 years olds, not sure). In the end, the lack of OFFICIAL martial-only concepts is a fact, again not denying that, but since martial-only subclasses are a little easier to conceptualise, develop and balace, we have the power and the means to create them, as much as we would like for WotC to give official support (which I understand becomes a problem when one takes into consideration AL play).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I’d remove the Spell focus feature and call it Eschew Materials:
A Sorcerer does not need spell components for any spell with a material component that does not have a good piece value.
I’d may even go a step father and remove material component requirement for any spell Sorcerer cast regardless of Gold value, but that can get more tricky unless the spell list was carefully monitored, especially with Divine Soul having access to Resurection.
The major criticism for a Sorcerer is that it lacks the sheer amount of spells and magical flexibility of a Wizard, who admittedly is able to apply magic to nearly any given situation for the best results.
But those who favor Sorcerer counter that, while a Wizard may have more spells to choose from, a Sorcerer can take what few spells they have and "bolster" or "upgrade" them in ways a Wizard can't...that's your metamagics. Casting "Fireball" or "Lightning Bolt" twice...using "Hypnotic Shape" or "Suggestion" without any verbal or physical command for stealth...things like that.
BUT...! These metamagics are restricted somewhat by the use of "Sorcery Points", which are limited in number until you perform a rest. Depending on what metamagics you use, you may find that you use most of them for one encounter, and then when faced with another threat, find that you are in short supply when you really need them. There is a skill I believe that lets you get more sorcery points by burning up a spell slot, but that is a red alert for a lot of people, considering spell slots are treasured by people who like spellcasters.
So, based on your question...I think a way for Sorcerers to "improve" is to find a alternative way to create more Sorcery points, without limiting their spell slots. I might suggest something similar to a Wizard's "Arcane Traditions"...A Sorcerer who specializes in a certain type of magic receives bonus Sorcery Points, but is unable to cast certain types of spells...or is unable to use Sorcery Points for them. For example: An Evocation Sorcerer would receive bonus Sorcery Points to use for Evocation Spells, but then cannot use them for Conjuration spells, or cannot use Conjuration spells until a short or long rest. The Sorcerer is free to use their favorite type of spells, more frequently, and more powerfully...at the expense of certain spells being blocked until later.
You could even design a subclass around the concept...perhaps the Sorcerer channels are particular type of magic based on their ancestry...perhaps they are descended from Fey and possess a specialty towards Enchantment spells...or perhaps an Elemental or djinn is part of their bloodline, and thus they focus more strongly on Evocation spells...by "channeling" that particular skill, they are more proficient with them, but block the capability of using other types of spells.
Or maybe get even crazier...perhaps they are "Astral" Sorcerers...capable of acquiring bonuses to their preferred types of spells by leaving their bodies when they sleep, and seeking hidden knowledge in their dreams. You could build it around short and long rests...more Sorcery Points for a type of magic after every short rest; more Sorcery Points for TWO types of magic for every long rest. Perhaps even a "Panic Button" skill for when a Sorcerer is knocked unconscious...maybe their spirit leaves their body and continues fighting in some capacity. Lots of potential there.
Unfortunately, Mike Mearls has gone on record saying that they're unwilling to commit to using other Sorcery Points and have them take away from Metamagic. I mean I get it, its a limited resource, but I like having more toys to play with.
Unfortunately, sorting spells out by School is the wizards hat entirely. A Sorcerer wouldn't probably label their own abilities under schools, because for them, its just something they can do. Plus, some bits are more synergistic with a Sorcerers Metamagic already, so if a Sorcerer was all about beguiling people, Heightened and Subtle spell is something they'd be more likely to utilize.
At my table we use Sterling Vermin's Revised Sorcerer, which mainly implements the spell point system as a minor buff and huge feel change for the sorcerer. I really think that they messed up in not making that the default approach to the sorcerer, it fixes their lack of power relative to other casters without overshooting them and it emphasizes the flexibility sorcerers are known for. If that were default Sorcerers would pretty much be my favorite class, no competition.
You f****g genius!!!
Agree totally with you!
If there was a different way to treat some of the sorcs most potent powers to not be dependent on the dm. Subtle meta magic is the most broken thing in the game but you’d never know since most dms don’t enforce the things that make it so strong. Wild magic, the DM can break the main reason to play it. There’s gotta be a way to get those things not so Iffy on dm style of play.
id also like to see them Not force everyone to play fire sorc when they pick a dragon. Let’s get some other element spells in the roster at higher levels.