I have no clue why you see the sorcerer as the person who casts rituals spells and does Comprehend Languages. That sounds more like a INT thing than a CHA thing I'm not going to lie.
I agree Sorcerers need more variety in spells, but I don't think that kind of variety fits the flavor of Sorcerers well.
I think adding a expanded spell list to all Sorcerers is enough, I get that the new TCoE sorcerers sacrifice a bit for them, however I believe that buffing the other Sorcerer subclasses wouldn't blast the TCoE sorcerers to death row. I value the TCoE sorcerers' unique flavor and abilities far more than their expanded spell list and would still pick them even if they weren't the best subclasses in the game.
And charm person and all charm spells sound far more CHA than INT but Wizards do all that with no issue don't they? I don't necessarily want ritual casting, or all the worlds flexibility that the Wiz has. But what is gained by being a sorcerer is minor in comparison to what you give up.
Metamagic and sorcery pointless alone are to limited, you don't get enough metamagic, you don't get enough points and there's no short rest regen available unless you wanna eat your spell slots.
15 spells known wouldn't suck as much compared to the 44 spells know of a wizard if we had more spells available per day than a wizard (like wiz's could only actually prep 10-12 a day) so that there was SOME benefit to the known spells instead of it being a straight up worse mechanic.
Twin haste is great, subtle counters are great.. and outside of a few niche things like that everything is remarkably subpar
It's not an insurmountable hurdle but one that requires side tracking getting items and buying supplies for an alchemist to brew us potions of water breathing. Wouldn't of been required though otherwise. Like instances where comprehend languages came up, wasn't like Oh your stuck than, we had to find someone that could cast it for us to translate the information we needed.
Campaign isn't just going to stop but it's lead to slow downs that wouldn't of come up if I had just played a wizard which is the problem.
This happens even without a sorcerer. I’m playing a Druid. At 4th level we fought a flying creature and I didn’t have Earthbind prepared. After finally defeating the creature I prepared it after a long rest and haven’t fought a flying creature since. We’re 11th level now and I finally unprepared it a couple levels ago. And as a Druid I have access to my entire spell list. Sure, it only requires a long rest to get something I need but inevitably situations come up where these things happen.
difference being if you KNEW you where going to fight flying creatures, say a dragon that had been terrorizing the area you can than prep the spell ahead of the confrontation. Known spell casters just go "oh it flies? well.. that sucks"
It's worth noting that Metamagic was originally a Wizard thing - as they got it automatically, but any spellcaster could take up metamagic as a feat. The Sorc used the exact same spell list as the Wizard. The benefit of Sorc was they could cast more often than a Wizard, but knew less spells.. In this edition, they're screwed Sorcs by decreasing the spells they get, gave metamagic but at the cost of a severely limited resource that also was used for the extra castings very heavily and they now have less spells.
I love sorcs for the in-built RP elements, but there is no denying they've been royally shafted in this edition.
It's worth noting that Metamagic was originally a Wizard thing - as they got it automatically, but any spellcaster could take up metamagic as a feat. The Sorc used the exact same spell list as the Wizard. The benefit of Sorc was they could cast more often than a Wizard, but knew less spells.. In this edition, they're screwed Sorcs by decreasing the spells they get, gave metamagic but at the cost of a severely limited resource that also was used for the extra castings very heavily and they now have less spells.
I love sorcs for the in-built RP elements, but there is no denying they've been royally shafted in this edition.
Why I played sorcerers in 3 and 3.5. The slower progression sucked yeah but you got 6 slots per lvl instead of 4 and didnt need to prep each slot just toss out what you needed when you needed it. Really enjoyed the class back than because of that, but than they just tore it all down for sorcerers, decided they didnt need the extra slots anymore and let wizards get more spells and more options daily because meta magic was suppose to be amazing evidently... tailor all your spells each day!... and by that we mean a handful of times a day in incredibly restrictive ways!
Which brings up another kinda funny point, the amount of times I've seen it said the class is great because we play with these house rules.. like that's fine but you need to realize that that means the class isn't great because your adding in rules to make it better. or when people ignore stuff Crawford has said. Like your still house ruling.. still tweaking the class.
Or those that don't understand the basics and say its so good 'cuse you can twin a fireball! Than you point out no you can't do that, well than twin something like magic missile.. than you point out you can't because it can target more than 1 creature, doesn't matter if you only target one. Well than twin disintegrate!! can't.. it targets objects. Well we just ignore that!! ok fine.. now we're changing the class.
I would look at reworking sorcery points to return on a short rest and redesign the capstone to something like chose 2 meta magics you know, these no longer require sorcery points to use.
I would look at reworking sorcery points to return on a short rest and redesign the capstone to something like chose 2 meta magics you know, these no longer require sorcery points to use.
Also very sorcerous would be getting rid of sorcerer spell slots altogether, and having sorcerers just use the spell points rules from the DMG, only called sorcery points. So metamagic and actual spells all come from one pool of points.
That would instantly give Sorcerers a unique spellcasting niche.
I would look at reworking sorcery points to return on a short rest and redesign the capstone to something like chose 2 meta magics you know, these no longer require sorcery points to use.
Can't do the short rest bit because Sorcerers can churn their sorcery points into spells. Although having them regain a few on a short rest probably wouldn't break anything.
Couldn't make metamagic free because Twin Spell exists - as an example, twinning Disintegrate for free instead of 6 points is a bit too good.
I would make Sorcery Points only able to be used with Meta-Magic and their Subclass abilities. I would not allow them to be used for spell slot conversion. I would then make them recover 1/2 of SP on a short rest once per day. I would have all subclasses have origin lists. If a spell is on your origin list you can directly cast it using SP = level of spell. Meaning they could cast 4th level Origin list spells for 4 SP.
Hot Take to fix the sorcerer: Delete it, and merge its components with warlock and feats.
Warlock already has the exact same themes with its subclasses. Anything which can be a bloodline can be a patron. Hell, the warlock background could even be expanded to include bloodlines.
Meanwhile metamagic has always been a feat, and trying to build an entire class around while gimping it for other casters was just a bad call. Return metamagic into a proper feat to be used by any caster.
Thematically I love the sorcerer, but I just feel that it's had its day, and now it serves no purpose. Its entire thing was spontaneous casting. Now that has ended up as something for all casters. Both its themes and mechanics are redundant to other classes or feats, and there are much more interesting classes which removing it could add space for.
I'm sure some would think this is too powerful, but what if you made SP replenish during a short or long rest, but then make it where you can only use the Flexible Casting feature with Sorcerer spell slots. That way, SP work like Ki points and you don't have to worry about exploiting SP in regard to multi-classing.
Honestly, this combined with giving origin spells to all Sorcerer subclasses that can be switched out for spells of certain schools and class spell lists could help patch up most of the often complained about issues with the class.
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I think part of the issue is also, some* wizard subclasses have features very close to metamagic. They do tend to be more restricted in their use (enchanters can only twin enchantment spells) but they are often both more powerful (sculpt spell vs careful spell) and, more importantly, free.
To be fair, I don't really have a problem with those abilities existing, and I think more restrictive use cases for a stronger effect is fair, but it makes it harder to say metamagic is sorcerer's thing when several wizards get their own version tailored to their specialty, and potentially usable more times a day.
*most wizard classes get some perk to casting spells, it just doesn't always mirror metamagic effects
I'm sure some would think this is too powerful, but what if you made SP replenish during a short or long rest, but then make it where you can only use the Flexible Casting feature with Sorcerer spell slots. That way, SP work like Ki points and you don't have to worry about exploiting SP in regard to multi-classing.
Honestly, this combined with giving origin spells to all Sorcerer subclasses that can be switched out for spells of certain schools and class spell lists could help patch up most of the often complained about issues with the class.
Not sure if that would be so much of an issue, and originally part of the Sorcerer's bag was more spells in a day. And all casters got more flexible casting this time as opposed to the more vancian version of prior editions.
I think part of the issue is also, some* wizard subclasses have features very close to metamagic. They do tend to be more restricted in their use (enchanters can only twin enchantment spells) but they are often both more powerful (sculpt spell vs careful spell) and, more importantly, free.
To be fair, I don't really have a problem with those abilities existing, and I think more restrictive use cases for a stronger effect is fair, but it makes it harder to say metamagic is sorcerer's thing when several wizards get their own version tailored to their specialty, and potentially usable more times a day.
*most wizard classes get some perk to casting spells, it just doesn't always mirror metamagic effects
I'd say it's still the sorcerers thing even though wizards have access to it, like you said more limited in nature but more powerful. What irritates me is how wizards took sorcerer spell casting, than get those sorcerer like abilities but when something like spell versatility comes up we can't add that to sorcerers cuse that's what wizards do!
Remove spell slot creation with SP and replace it with the ability to cast a spell using your Sorcerer hit dice. Something like "Choose a spell 5th level or lower, and then spend a Sorcerer hit die. If the number rolled meets or exceeds the level of the spell, the spell is cast as normal, but without using a spell slot. If the number rolled is less than the level of the spell, you may choose to spend additional Sorcerer hit dice and add them to your initial roll, up to your Charisma modifier dice per Short Rest."
This removes the strain on Sorcery Points while still giving the Sorcerer "extra" spell slots to work with without mucking up the multiclassing spellcaster progression. It also has the benefit of being sorta thematic, using the Sorcerer's 'health' to cast spells.
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And charm person and all charm spells sound far more CHA than INT but Wizards do all that with no issue don't they? I don't necessarily want ritual casting, or all the worlds flexibility that the Wiz has. But what is gained by being a sorcerer is minor in comparison to what you give up.
Metamagic and sorcery pointless alone are to limited, you don't get enough metamagic, you don't get enough points and there's no short rest regen available unless you wanna eat your spell slots.
15 spells known wouldn't suck as much compared to the 44 spells know of a wizard if we had more spells available per day than a wizard (like wiz's could only actually prep 10-12 a day) so that there was SOME benefit to the known spells instead of it being a straight up worse mechanic.
Twin haste is great, subtle counters are great.. and outside of a few niche things like that everything is remarkably subpar
difference being if you KNEW you where going to fight flying creatures, say a dragon that had been terrorizing the area you can than prep the spell ahead of the confrontation. Known spell casters just go "oh it flies? well.. that sucks"
It's worth noting that Metamagic was originally a Wizard thing - as they got it automatically, but any spellcaster could take up metamagic as a feat. The Sorc used the exact same spell list as the Wizard. The benefit of Sorc was they could cast more often than a Wizard, but knew less spells.. In this edition, they're screwed Sorcs by decreasing the spells they get, gave metamagic but at the cost of a severely limited resource that also was used for the extra castings very heavily and they now have less spells.
I love sorcs for the in-built RP elements, but there is no denying they've been royally shafted in this edition.
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Why I played sorcerers in 3 and 3.5. The slower progression sucked yeah but you got 6 slots per lvl instead of 4 and didnt need to prep each slot just toss out what you needed when you needed it. Really enjoyed the class back than because of that, but than they just tore it all down for sorcerers, decided they didnt need the extra slots anymore and let wizards get more spells and more options daily because meta magic was suppose to be amazing evidently... tailor all your spells each day!... and by that we mean a handful of times a day in incredibly restrictive ways!
Which brings up another kinda funny point, the amount of times I've seen it said the class is great because we play with these house rules.. like that's fine but you need to realize that that means the class isn't great because your adding in rules to make it better. or when people ignore stuff Crawford has said. Like your still house ruling.. still tweaking the class.
Or those that don't understand the basics and say its so good 'cuse you can twin a fireball! Than you point out no you can't do that, well than twin something like magic missile.. than you point out you can't because it can target more than 1 creature, doesn't matter if you only target one. Well than twin disintegrate!! can't.. it targets objects. Well we just ignore that!! ok fine.. now we're changing the class.
I would look at reworking sorcery points to return on a short rest and redesign the capstone to something like chose 2 meta magics you know, these no longer require sorcery points to use.
Also very sorcerous would be getting rid of sorcerer spell slots altogether, and having sorcerers just use the spell points rules from the DMG, only called sorcery points. So metamagic and actual spells all come from one pool of points.
That would instantly give Sorcerers a unique spellcasting niche.
Can't do the short rest bit because Sorcerers can churn their sorcery points into spells. Although having them regain a few on a short rest probably wouldn't break anything.
Couldn't make metamagic free because Twin Spell exists - as an example, twinning Disintegrate for free instead of 6 points is a bit too good.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
I would make Sorcery Points only able to be used with Meta-Magic and their Subclass abilities. I would not allow them to be used for spell slot conversion. I would then make them recover 1/2 of SP on a short rest once per day. I would have all subclasses have origin lists. If a spell is on your origin list you can directly cast it using SP = level of spell. Meaning they could cast 4th level Origin list spells for 4 SP.
Hot Take to fix the sorcerer: Delete it, and merge its components with warlock and feats.
Warlock already has the exact same themes with its subclasses. Anything which can be a bloodline can be a patron. Hell, the warlock background could even be expanded to include bloodlines.
Meanwhile metamagic has always been a feat, and trying to build an entire class around while gimping it for other casters was just a bad call. Return metamagic into a proper feat to be used by any caster.
Thematically I love the sorcerer, but I just feel that it's had its day, and now it serves no purpose. Its entire thing was spontaneous casting. Now that has ended up as something for all casters. Both its themes and mechanics are redundant to other classes or feats, and there are much more interesting classes which removing it could add space for.
I'm sure some would think this is too powerful, but what if you made SP replenish during a short or long rest, but then make it where you can only use the Flexible Casting feature with Sorcerer spell slots. That way, SP work like Ki points and you don't have to worry about exploiting SP in regard to multi-classing.
Honestly, this combined with giving origin spells to all Sorcerer subclasses that can be switched out for spells of certain schools and class spell lists could help patch up most of the often complained about issues with the class.
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I think part of the issue is also, some* wizard subclasses have features very close to metamagic. They do tend to be more restricted in their use (enchanters can only twin enchantment spells) but they are often both more powerful (sculpt spell vs careful spell) and, more importantly, free.
To be fair, I don't really have a problem with those abilities existing, and I think more restrictive use cases for a stronger effect is fair, but it makes it harder to say metamagic is sorcerer's thing when several wizards get their own version tailored to their specialty, and potentially usable more times a day.
*most wizard classes get some perk to casting spells, it just doesn't always mirror metamagic effects
Not sure if that would be so much of an issue, and originally part of the Sorcerer's bag was more spells in a day. And all casters got more flexible casting this time as opposed to the more vancian version of prior editions.
I'd say it's still the sorcerers thing even though wizards have access to it, like you said more limited in nature but more powerful. What irritates me is how wizards took sorcerer spell casting, than get those sorcerer like abilities but when something like spell versatility comes up we can't add that to sorcerers cuse that's what wizards do!
Like.. kidding me??
Here's an idea I had:
Remove spell slot creation with SP and replace it with the ability to cast a spell using your Sorcerer hit dice. Something like "Choose a spell 5th level or lower, and then spend a Sorcerer hit die. If the number rolled meets or exceeds the level of the spell, the spell is cast as normal, but without using a spell slot. If the number rolled is less than the level of the spell, you may choose to spend additional Sorcerer hit dice and add them to your initial roll, up to your Charisma modifier dice per Short Rest."
This removes the strain on Sorcery Points while still giving the Sorcerer "extra" spell slots to work with without mucking up the multiclassing spellcaster progression. It also has the benefit of being sorta thematic, using the Sorcerer's 'health' to cast spells.