With Tasha's now out it seems they have kind of abandoned the PHB Sorcerer subclasses....
These new sorcerers are far and away better as they have more versatility (able to swap their spells AND origin spells on a level up) and 11 more spells known! That is almost double the base sorcerer amount (15).
The PHB sorcerers did get the class feature upgrades but so did these sorcerers lol......
I absolutely agree - it seems kind of weird that WotC didn't add origin spells as a variant for all Sorcerer subclasses. Fortunately, it seems pretty easy to homebrew, even in DDB - I plan to add a custom feat that I'll give to Sorcerer players in my games.
It's just annoying to have to do it myself, and I think it does lead to questions about whether clockwork and aberrant subclass features are weaker to make room for the new spells. I don't think they are, but I can easily see some more restrictive DMs making that argument and not giving old sorcerers origin lists.
They do spend a level 1 ability on the expanded spell list, so they are theoretically weaker otherwise. And as a DM or player I'd be perfectly willing to say pick a lv 1 ability to lose and we'll build a spell list in its place. That being said... sorc lv 1 abilities vary from "actually pretty solid" to "ribbon" so tough call on how much the spell list is costing.
Looks like it's just flat out stronger. Dragon Sorcerer gets +1hp and mage armor. Compare to a persistently free telepathy ability that ranges for miles with no cost (better than a free lvl1 spell slot). Compare Tides of Chaos (grant advantage) versus Restore Balance (remove advantage/disadvantage from anyone). Roughly equal ability, but the latter can be used multiple times per day without relying on rolling for wild magic... if you're even allowed to.
I'd say slightly better abilities at level 1... and thats not including the more spells feature.
Sorcs tend to have 1 lv 1 ability that defines their subclass with a perk. Ex: choose a dragon ancestor, also learn draconic and gain expertise in charisma skills vs dragons. Or Gain access to the cleric spell list, also a free spell. And then another lv 1 feature that is thematic but less tied to their central theme. So for those 2 sub classes free mage armor and +1 hp per level, or favored by the gods. There are exceptions to this pattern *looks at storm* but it is a trend. The expanded spell lists seem to be taking the place of the first set.
I'm not trying to say I disagree that the improved spell lists are more powerful, I do think they are. Just saying they are taking up some power budget rather than being strictly added on.
Edited to add: also I think you are overselling yhe telepathy a bit. It's spammable yes but only I person at a time and every few minutes they need to be within 30 feet again to refresh it. I think the always on mage armor and higher hp compares fairly favorably.
I'm not trying to say I disagree that the improved spell lists are more powerful, I do think they are. Just saying they are taking up some power budget rather than being strictly added on.
Edited to add: also I think you are overselling yhe telepathy a bit. It's spammable yes but only I person at a time and every few minutes they need to be within 30 feet again to refresh it. I think the always on mage armor and higher hp compares fairly favorably.
I think you're missing my point. If you removed the added spells? The subclasses are roughly equal in power, maybe a bit better. Add in the spells? New subclasses are far and away better. There is no "power budget" here being drained by the spell additions. You get more spells AND fun, powerful abilities.
PS - I rated the telepathy higher than mage armor because I think it's effective spell level is around a level 2 spell. Ymmv.
Especially since you can get free mage armor for the price of a feat now...
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Eh agree to disagree I guess. I think they are slightly weaker than the other sub classes if you take out the expanded spell ability (and change psionic sorcery to go off of spell school I guess, since it normally pulls from the expanded spell feature) but a lot of it is comparing abilities that do very different things and asking which is better so definitely going to be affected by what you prefer. ie: what's better, a fly speed or the ability to teleport between shadowy/dark areas? They are even both movement abilities and it's still like...depends? In the underdark? Teleport. Some sort of divinity 2 battlefield where everything is burning? please let my fly above the ground.
As a random aside because I've been browsing sorcerer subclasses a bit, I'm reminded that I feel like storm actually has pretty solid abilities...if it were on a class that can afford to hang out in melee.
That's part of the problem...you can't just unbolt the extra spells, because that's a big part of the draw. One of the biggest complaints about sorcerers is too few known spells. The new sorcerers address that problem to an extent, so ipso facto, the new ones are superior.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
More cantrips are suppose to give sorcerers the versatility benefit over wizards I think...but wizards can swap cantrips on a long rest now so thats out the window too!
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
Ran into this a lot so far in our campaign. Can you cast detect magic? nope, comprehend languages? nope. Water breathing? nope. Last one was the perfect example of why spell versatility should be in the game still. We know we need to go underwater to deal with some things, can you cast it? nope.. can you learn it? nope.. can yo-- NOPE. Get me a level up and I can learn it.. but I'm not going to because than I'm stuck with it till NEXT level.
Me and my 6 spells if I was a wizard I'd have 14, + the 5 from that spellbook and scrolls for 19, than I'd be prepping 10 a day instead of just SIX.. so lame
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
Ran into this a lot so far in our campaign. Can you cast detect magic? nope, comprehend languages? nope. Water breathing? nope. Last one was the perfect example of why spell versatility should be in the game still. We know we need to go underwater to deal with some things, can you cast it? nope.. can you learn it? nope.. can yo-- NOPE. Get me a level up and I can learn it.. but I'm not going to because than I'm stuck with it till NEXT level.
Me and my 6 spells if I was a wizard I'd have 14, + the 5 from that spellbook and scrolls for 19, than I'd be prepping 10 a day instead of just SIX.. so lame
Sorcerer has a narrower focus so might not be the best class if you are looking for versatility in spell selection. Later subclasses that have an additional spell list help with this (Clockwork Soul, Aberrant Mind) with more spells known and the ability to swap them out for different ones of certain schools.
I mean, you could say hey wizard can you cast that spell on the enemy spell caster without being counterspelled? Nope (Subtle spell). Can you cast that single target spell on those two enemies? Nope (Twinned spell). Can you cast that touch spell on me way over here 30’ away? Nope (Distant spell). So lame.
Different classes fill different roles and with sorcerer you have to be more careful at spell selection.
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
Ran into this a lot so far in our campaign. Can you cast detect magic? nope, comprehend languages? nope. Water breathing? nope. Last one was the perfect example of why spell versatility should be in the game still. We know we need to go underwater to deal with some things, can you cast it? nope.. can you learn it? nope.. can yo-- NOPE. Get me a level up and I can learn it.. but I'm not going to because than I'm stuck with it till NEXT level.
Me and my 6 spells if I was a wizard I'd have 14, + the 5 from that spellbook and scrolls for 19, than I'd be prepping 10 a day instead of just SIX.. so lame
Sorcerer has a narrower focus so might not be the best class if you are looking for versatility in spell selection. Later subclasses that have an additional spell list help with this (Clockwork Soul, Aberrant Mind) with more spells known and the ability to swap them out for different ones of certain schools.
I mean, you could say hey wizard can you cast that spell on the enemy spell caster without being counterspelled? Nope (Subtle spell). Can you cast that single target spell on those two enemies? Nope (Twinned spell). Can you cast that touch spell on me way over here 30’ away? Nope (Distant spell). So lame.
Different classes fill different roles and with sorcerer you have to be more careful at spell selection.
Yeah those subclasses basically fix the issue....by doubling spells known.
The problem was they put entirely too much faith that Metamagic would be so powerful as to have to warrant such a reduction in spells known.
In actual play there are like 2 or 3 metamagic routinely used and while they can be very encounter defining there is for sure "wrong" choices.
Twinning a Polymorph gives you two CR 8 creatures on the board that can decimate the enemies for up to 1 hour...and since its easier than ever to get feats/items that help you hold concentration you are going to be able to hold on to the spell for a long time.
Vs. spending 3 sorcery points to have them have disadvantaged on one saving throw....which is....whelming.
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
Ran into this a lot so far in our campaign. Can you cast detect magic? nope, comprehend languages? nope. Water breathing? nope. Last one was the perfect example of why spell versatility should be in the game still. We know we need to go underwater to deal with some things, can you cast it? nope.. can you learn it? nope.. can yo-- NOPE. Get me a level up and I can learn it.. but I'm not going to because than I'm stuck with it till NEXT level.
Me and my 6 spells if I was a wizard I'd have 14, + the 5 from that spellbook and scrolls for 19, than I'd be prepping 10 a day instead of just SIX.. so lame
Sorcerer has a narrower focus so might not be the best class if you are looking for versatility in spell selection. Later subclasses that have an additional spell list help with this (Clockwork Soul, Aberrant Mind) with more spells known and the ability to swap them out for different ones of certain schools.
I mean, you could say hey wizard can you cast that spell on the enemy spell caster without being counterspelled? Nope (Subtle spell). Can you cast that single target spell on those two enemies? Nope (Twinned spell). Can you cast that touch spell on me way over here 30’ away? Nope (Distant spell). So lame.
Different classes fill different roles and with sorcerer you have to be more careful at spell selection.
Being completely shut out of an option because your class forbids learning spells and gives you such a small selection so that you can't even attempt to be well rounded vs not doing the casting quite as well in specific circumstances are worlds difference. Can he cast without being countered on a VS spell? no in the circumstance your DM gets you into a caster battle as a wizard if you need that spell to go off you might just need to counter his counterspell. can he twin? no but he can still cast it on one person. distant spell.. ppl actually use this one?
My option is to level up to gain the spell OR buy a spell scroll for a single use of it. Sorcerers just have such a narrow band of improvement that they throw away so much value to obtain. For instance even if my DM just said "eh forget it you learn waterbreathing I want to move this ahead" it would still be a pain since I can't get it on the entire party because sorcerers can't ritual cast
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
Ran into this a lot so far in our campaign. Can you cast detect magic? nope, comprehend languages? nope. Water breathing? nope. Last one was the perfect example of why spell versatility should be in the game still. We know we need to go underwater to deal with some things, can you cast it? nope.. can you learn it? nope.. can yo-- NOPE. Get me a level up and I can learn it.. but I'm not going to because than I'm stuck with it till NEXT level.
Me and my 6 spells if I was a wizard I'd have 14, + the 5 from that spellbook and scrolls for 19, than I'd be prepping 10 a day instead of just SIX.. so lame
Sorcerer has a narrower focus so might not be the best class if you are looking for versatility in spell selection. Later subclasses that have an additional spell list help with this (Clockwork Soul, Aberrant Mind) with more spells known and the ability to swap them out for different ones of certain schools.
I mean, you could say hey wizard can you cast that spell on the enemy spell caster without being counterspelled? Nope (Subtle spell). Can you cast that single target spell on those two enemies? Nope (Twinned spell). Can you cast that touch spell on me way over here 30’ away? Nope (Distant spell). So lame.
Different classes fill different roles and with sorcerer you have to be more careful at spell selection.
Being completely shut out of an option because your class forbids learning spells and gives you such a small selection so that you can't even attempt to be well rounded vs not doing the casting quite as well in specific circumstances are worlds difference. Can he cast without being countered on a VS spell? no in the circumstance your DM gets you into a caster battle as a wizard if you need that spell to go off you might just need to counter his counterspell. can he twin? no but he can still cast it on one person. distant spell.. ppl actually use this one?
My option is to level up to gain the spell OR buy a spell scroll for a single use of it. Sorcerers just have such a narrow band of improvement that they throw away so much value to obtain. For instance even if my DM just said "eh forget it you learn waterbreathing I want to move this ahead" it would still be a pain since I can't get it on the entire party because sorcerers can't ritual cast
I agree that sorcerers have a too limited spell list, which newer subclasses address in part. I wish they would officially add subclass spell lists to the ones that don’t have it. I kind of think they have it about right with the new subclass spells. But I don’t think sorcerers should be wizards with metamagic and no spellbook.
I know the water breathing is an example but if the DM makes their adventure that requires water breathing to move forward and the party doesn’t have that option then that’s on the DM.
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
Ran into this a lot so far in our campaign. Can you cast detect magic? nope, comprehend languages? nope. Water breathing? nope. Last one was the perfect example of why spell versatility should be in the game still. We know we need to go underwater to deal with some things, can you cast it? nope.. can you learn it? nope.. can yo-- NOPE. Get me a level up and I can learn it.. but I'm not going to because than I'm stuck with it till NEXT level.
Me and my 6 spells if I was a wizard I'd have 14, + the 5 from that spellbook and scrolls for 19, than I'd be prepping 10 a day instead of just SIX.. so lame
Sorcerer has a narrower focus so might not be the best class if you are looking for versatility in spell selection. Later subclasses that have an additional spell list help with this (Clockwork Soul, Aberrant Mind) with more spells known and the ability to swap them out for different ones of certain schools.
I mean, you could say hey wizard can you cast that spell on the enemy spell caster without being counterspelled? Nope (Subtle spell). Can you cast that single target spell on those two enemies? Nope (Twinned spell). Can you cast that touch spell on me way over here 30’ away? Nope (Distant spell). So lame.
Different classes fill different roles and with sorcerer you have to be more careful at spell selection.
Being completely shut out of an option because your class forbids learning spells and gives you such a small selection so that you can't even attempt to be well rounded vs not doing the casting quite as well in specific circumstances are worlds difference. Can he cast without being countered on a VS spell? no in the circumstance your DM gets you into a caster battle as a wizard if you need that spell to go off you might just need to counter his counterspell. can he twin? no but he can still cast it on one person. distant spell.. ppl actually use this one?
My option is to level up to gain the spell OR buy a spell scroll for a single use of it. Sorcerers just have such a narrow band of improvement that they throw away so much value to obtain. For instance even if my DM just said "eh forget it you learn waterbreathing I want to move this ahead" it would still be a pain since I can't get it on the entire party because sorcerers can't ritual cast
I agree that sorcerers have a too limited spell list, which newer subclasses address in part. I wish they would officially add subclass spell lists to the ones that don’t have it. I kind of think they have it about right with the new subclass spells. But I don’t think sorcerers should be wizards with metamagic and no spellbook.
I know the water breathing is an example but if the DM makes their adventure that requires water breathing to move forward and the party doesn’t have that option then that’s on the DM.
It's not an insurmountable hurdle but one that requires side tracking getting items and buying supplies for an alchemist to brew us potions of water breathing. Wouldn't of been required though otherwise. Like instances where comprehend languages came up, wasn't like Oh your stuck than, we had to find someone that could cast it for us to translate the information we needed.
Campaign isn't just going to stop but it's lead to slow downs that wouldn't of come up if I had just played a wizard which is the problem.
I have no clue why you see the sorcerer as the person who casts rituals spells and does Comprehend Languages. That sounds more like a INT thing than a CHA thing I'm not going to lie.
I agree Sorcerers need more variety in spells, but I don't think that kind of variety fits the flavor of Sorcerers well.
I think adding a expanded spell list to all Sorcerers is enough, I get that the new TCoE sorcerers sacrifice a bit for them, however I believe that buffing the other Sorcerer subclasses wouldn't blast the TCoE sorcerers to death row. I value the TCoE sorcerers' unique flavor and abilities far more than their expanded spell list and would still pick them even if they weren't the best subclasses in the game.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
It's not an insurmountable hurdle but one that requires side tracking getting items and buying supplies for an alchemist to brew us potions of water breathing. Wouldn't of been required though otherwise. Like instances where comprehend languages came up, wasn't like Oh your stuck than, we had to find someone that could cast it for us to translate the information we needed.
Campaign isn't just going to stop but it's lead to slow downs that wouldn't of come up if I had just played a wizard which is the problem.
This happens even without a sorcerer. I’m playing a Druid. At 4th level we fought a flying creature and I didn’t have Earthbind prepared. After finally defeating the creature I prepared it after a long rest and haven’t fought a flying creature since. We’re 11th level now and I finally unprepared it a couple levels ago. And as a Druid I have access to my entire spell list. Sure, it only requires a long rest to get something I need but inevitably situations come up where these things happen.
With Tasha's now out it seems they have kind of abandoned the PHB Sorcerer subclasses....
These new sorcerers are far and away better as they have more versatility (able to swap their spells AND origin spells on a level up) and 11 more spells known! That is almost double the base sorcerer amount (15).
The PHB sorcerers did get the class feature upgrades but so did these sorcerers lol......
It seems ridiculous that the older sorcerer subclasses didn't get variant features to give them origin spells like the new subclasses.
I absolutely agree - it seems kind of weird that WotC didn't add origin spells as a variant for all Sorcerer subclasses. Fortunately, it seems pretty easy to homebrew, even in DDB - I plan to add a custom feat that I'll give to Sorcerer players in my games.
It's just annoying to have to do it myself, and I think it does lead to questions about whether clockwork and aberrant subclass features are weaker to make room for the new spells. I don't think they are, but I can easily see some more restrictive DMs making that argument and not giving old sorcerers origin lists.
They do spend a level 1 ability on the expanded spell list, so they are theoretically weaker otherwise. And as a DM or player I'd be perfectly willing to say pick a lv 1 ability to lose and we'll build a spell list in its place. That being said... sorc lv 1 abilities vary from "actually pretty solid" to "ribbon" so tough call on how much the spell list is costing.
Looks like it's just flat out stronger. Dragon Sorcerer gets +1hp and mage armor. Compare to a persistently free telepathy ability that ranges for miles with no cost (better than a free lvl1 spell slot). Compare Tides of Chaos (grant advantage) versus Restore Balance (remove advantage/disadvantage from anyone). Roughly equal ability, but the latter can be used multiple times per day without relying on rolling for wild magic... if you're even allowed to.
I'd say slightly better abilities at level 1... and thats not including the more spells feature.
Sorcs tend to have 1 lv 1 ability that defines their subclass with a perk. Ex: choose a dragon ancestor, also learn draconic and gain expertise in charisma skills vs dragons. Or Gain access to the cleric spell list, also a free spell. And then another lv 1 feature that is thematic but less tied to their central theme. So for those 2 sub classes free mage armor and +1 hp per level, or favored by the gods. There are exceptions to this pattern *looks at storm* but it is a trend. The expanded spell lists seem to be taking the place of the first set.
I'm not trying to say I disagree that the improved spell lists are more powerful, I do think they are. Just saying they are taking up some power budget rather than being strictly added on.
Edited to add: also I think you are overselling yhe telepathy a bit. It's spammable yes but only I person at a time and every few minutes they need to be within 30 feet again to refresh it. I think the always on mage armor and higher hp compares fairly favorably.
I think you're missing my point. If you removed the added spells? The subclasses are roughly equal in power, maybe a bit better. Add in the spells? New subclasses are far and away better. There is no "power budget" here being drained by the spell additions. You get more spells AND fun, powerful abilities.
PS - I rated the telepathy higher than mage armor because I think it's effective spell level is around a level 2 spell. Ymmv.
Especially since you can get free mage armor for the price of a feat now...
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Tasha
Eh agree to disagree I guess. I think they are slightly weaker than the other sub classes if you take out the expanded spell ability (and change psionic sorcery to go off of spell school I guess, since it normally pulls from the expanded spell feature) but a lot of it is comparing abilities that do very different things and asking which is better so definitely going to be affected by what you prefer. ie: what's better, a fly speed or the ability to teleport between shadowy/dark areas? They are even both movement abilities and it's still like...depends? In the underdark? Teleport. Some sort of divinity 2 battlefield where everything is burning? please let my fly above the ground.
As a random aside because I've been browsing sorcerer subclasses a bit, I'm reminded that I feel like storm actually has pretty solid abilities...if it were on a class that can afford to hang out in melee.
That's part of the problem...you can't just unbolt the extra spells, because that's a big part of the draw. One of the biggest complaints about sorcerers is too few known spells. The new sorcerers address that problem to an extent, so ipso facto, the new ones are superior.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I've been playing sorcerers for a while now, and it seems like they really are crippled compared to Wizards.
I mean, they learn exactly half as many spells per level as a wizard. AND they don't get additional spells per day based on CHA, unlike wizards and their INT bonus.
Plus in a typical campaign, a wizard will come across at least a few scrolls or looted/bought spell books from which to gain additional spells. By 5th level, I've usually come across at least a dozen wizard spells that I could add to my list (though at least some are probably going to be duplicates).
It's maddening to have the party look to a sorcerer and ask "can you do ___" and the sorcerer just shrug and say, "sorry. I needed that combat spell, so..." Very restrictive.
If they got to know additional spells equal to their CHA modifier, that would alleviate a great deal of that pressure. OR if there were some equivalent to the Wizard's ability to take spells from other sources -- something akin to copying another's spellbook or copying a scroll. But there isn't. Sorcerers give up quite a lot to get some metamagic and the flexibility to cast their half-as-many spells however they want when they want.
It basically all boils down to begging the GM for magic items that have spell effects to help cover the gaps. Maddening, really. Especially given how 5e is much more flexible with spells per day for wizards than, say, 3x was.
More cantrips are suppose to give sorcerers the versatility benefit over wizards I think...but wizards can swap cantrips on a long rest now so thats out the window too!
Ran into this a lot so far in our campaign. Can you cast detect magic? nope, comprehend languages? nope. Water breathing? nope. Last one was the perfect example of why spell versatility should be in the game still. We know we need to go underwater to deal with some things, can you cast it? nope.. can you learn it? nope.. can yo-- NOPE. Get me a level up and I can learn it.. but I'm not going to because than I'm stuck with it till NEXT level.
Me and my 6 spells if I was a wizard I'd have 14, + the 5 from that spellbook and scrolls for 19, than I'd be prepping 10 a day instead of just SIX.. so lame
Sorcerer has a narrower focus so might not be the best class if you are looking for versatility in spell selection. Later subclasses that have an additional spell list help with this (Clockwork Soul, Aberrant Mind) with more spells known and the ability to swap them out for different ones of certain schools.
I mean, you could say hey wizard can you cast that spell on the enemy spell caster without being counterspelled? Nope (Subtle spell). Can you cast that single target spell on those two enemies? Nope (Twinned spell). Can you cast that touch spell on me way over here 30’ away? Nope (Distant spell). So lame.
Different classes fill different roles and with sorcerer you have to be more careful at spell selection.
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Yeah those subclasses basically fix the issue....by doubling spells known.
The problem was they put entirely too much faith that Metamagic would be so powerful as to have to warrant such a reduction in spells known.
In actual play there are like 2 or 3 metamagic routinely used and while they can be very encounter defining there is for sure "wrong" choices.
Twinning a Polymorph gives you two CR 8 creatures on the board that can decimate the enemies for up to 1 hour...and since its easier than ever to get feats/items that help you hold concentration you are going to be able to hold on to the spell for a long time.
Vs. spending 3 sorcery points to have them have disadvantaged on one saving throw....which is....whelming.
Being completely shut out of an option because your class forbids learning spells and gives you such a small selection so that you can't even attempt to be well rounded vs not doing the casting quite as well in specific circumstances are worlds difference. Can he cast without being countered on a VS spell? no in the circumstance your DM gets you into a caster battle as a wizard if you need that spell to go off you might just need to counter his counterspell. can he twin? no but he can still cast it on one person. distant spell.. ppl actually use this one?
My option is to level up to gain the spell OR buy a spell scroll for a single use of it. Sorcerers just have such a narrow band of improvement that they throw away so much value to obtain. For instance even if my DM just said "eh forget it you learn waterbreathing I want to move this ahead" it would still be a pain since I can't get it on the entire party because sorcerers can't ritual cast
I agree that sorcerers have a too limited spell list, which newer subclasses address in part. I wish they would officially add subclass spell lists to the ones that don’t have it. I kind of think they have it about right with the new subclass spells. But I don’t think sorcerers should be wizards with metamagic and no spellbook.
I know the water breathing is an example but if the DM makes their adventure that requires water breathing to move forward and the party doesn’t have that option then that’s on the DM.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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It's not an insurmountable hurdle but one that requires side tracking getting items and buying supplies for an alchemist to brew us potions of water breathing. Wouldn't of been required though otherwise. Like instances where comprehend languages came up, wasn't like Oh your stuck than, we had to find someone that could cast it for us to translate the information we needed.
Campaign isn't just going to stop but it's lead to slow downs that wouldn't of come up if I had just played a wizard which is the problem.
I have no clue why you see the sorcerer as the person who casts rituals spells and does Comprehend Languages. That sounds more like a INT thing than a CHA thing I'm not going to lie.
I agree Sorcerers need more variety in spells, but I don't think that kind of variety fits the flavor of Sorcerers well.
I think adding a expanded spell list to all Sorcerers is enough, I get that the new TCoE sorcerers sacrifice a bit for them, however I believe that buffing the other Sorcerer subclasses wouldn't blast the TCoE sorcerers to death row. I value the TCoE sorcerers' unique flavor and abilities far more than their expanded spell list and would still pick them even if they weren't the best subclasses in the game.
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This happens even without a sorcerer. I’m playing a Druid. At 4th level we fought a flying creature and I didn’t have Earthbind prepared. After finally defeating the creature I prepared it after a long rest and haven’t fought a flying creature since. We’re 11th level now and I finally unprepared it a couple levels ago. And as a Druid I have access to my entire spell list. Sure, it only requires a long rest to get something I need but inevitably situations come up where these things happen.
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