That absolutely missed my point. Clerics cast spells because they ask their god for said power. I'm not reflecting on that. I'm going over the difference between wisdom and intelligence, and why that bears impact on the game. Or at least, originally impacted stats for the character, i.e. clerics having wisdom as a primary stat, as opposed to charisma, and why that should or shouldn't be the case.
I don't follow your second point, could you elaborate, please?
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I think every single class in the game starts with two proficient saving throws, one in their main stat and then another. The extra stat could pretty much universally beconsidered the secondary stat of the class as far as flavour and what not would go.
For example, Rogues are proficient in Dex saving throws (obviously) and then Int saving throws, Int being easily considered the other thing Rogues would be known for. If you wanted to create some kind of secondary stat buff system, you'd need look no further.
I think every single class in the game starts with two proficient saving throws, one in their main stat and then another. The extra stat could pretty much universally beconsidered the secondary stat of the class as far as flavour and what not would go.
For example, Rogues are proficient in Dex saving throws (obviously) and then Int saving throws, Int being easily considered the other thing Rogues would be known for. If you wanted to create some kind of secondary stat buff system, you'd need look no further.
Investigation is about the only INT skill that would benefit a Rogue, (anyone, really...) but for some Rogues, CHA-based skills like Performance, Persuasion, and Deception would all be nice.
I think every single class in the game starts with two proficient saving throws, one in their main stat and then another. The extra stat could pretty much universally beconsidered the secondary stat of the class as far as flavour and what not would go.
For example, Rogues are proficient in Dex saving throws (obviously) and then Int saving throws, Int being easily considered the other thing Rogues would be known for. If you wanted to create some kind of secondary stat buff system, you'd need look no further.
I'd hesitate to call this "universal." Rangers are proficient in Strength and Dexterity saves, but most people would consider Wisdom their secondary stat.
I think every single class in the game starts with two proficient saving throws, one in their main stat and then another. The extra stat could pretty much universally beconsidered the secondary stat of the class as far as flavour and what not would go.
For example, Rogues are proficient in Dex saving throws (obviously) and then Int saving throws, Int being easily considered the other thing Rogues would be known for. If you wanted to create some kind of secondary stat buff system, you'd need look no further.
I'd hesitate to call this "universal." Rangers are proficient in Strength and Dexterity saves, but most people would consider Wisdom their secondary stat.
I mean, as far as I can see, Rangers should really be casting off of CHA anyways /s
I think every single class in the game starts with two proficient saving throws, one in their main stat and then another. The extra stat could pretty much universally beconsidered the secondary stat of the class as far as flavour and what not would go.
For example, Rogues are proficient in Dex saving throws (obviously) and then Int saving throws, Int being easily considered the other thing Rogues would be known for. If you wanted to create some kind of secondary stat buff system, you'd need look no further.
I'd hesitate to call this "universal." Rangers are proficient in Strength and Dexterity saves, but most people would consider Wisdom their secondary stat.
I mean, as far as I can see, Rangers should really be casting off of CHA anyways /s
No, I'm starting a campaign to get Rangers rebranded as the slutty, slutty thots we all know they are inside. Wisdom based rangers are a thing of the past baby, Charisma based Rangers are in. There's not a humanoid in the land that Rangers can't seduce!
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
You can play a smart warlock with strong force of personality and you don't need to switch the spell casting mod from CHA to INT. Level 1 Tiefling with Point Buy can get: STR: 8 DEX:14 CON: 12 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 16
It's just the min/maxers that have the issue as they have to diversify their ability scores instead of being straight optimized.
My problem that I have when I play a warlock is that I burn through all my spells almost every battle. The ability scores and cantrips help but I end up feeling under powered compared to the rest of the group. I have high survivability rate but low offense for more than a battle or a few rounds
Warlocks should be pushing for short rests; if your party can short rest after every battle, or even every other battle, your warlock would keep up just fine. The class has an extremely powerful magical attack in Eldritch Blast, classic warlock tactics are to lean on EB the way the ranger leans on longbow attacks. Your pact magic shouldn't be one-and-done spell blasts, you should be looking for spells that turn the tide of battle or allow you access to new tactics. Leveled spellblasting is the domain of wizards and sorcerers; warlocks are magical archers and spellblades that should be focusing on clever tactics over raw force.
Pushing for a short rest each fight is pretty unrealistic, instead of trying, learn to use your spells and cantrips more effectively. Hex is an MVP for a reason, EB most rounds and so on. If you want to spell sling full leveled spells all the time, maybe play something else
My problem that I have when I play a warlock is that I burn through all my spells almost every battle. The ability scores and cantrips help but I end up feeling under powered compared to the rest of the group. I have high survivability rate but low offense for more than a battle or a few rounds
Question: what's the role of your character in the party? Are you always in battle / hack and slash? Or is this a particular combat-only issue? What damage cantrips, other than EB, Do you have? And how do you use board control and motion spells in combat?
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Pushing for a short rest each fight is pretty unrealistic, instead of trying, learn to use your spells and cantrips more effectively. Hex is an MVP for a reason, EB most rounds and so on. If you want to spell sling full leveled spells all the time, maybe play something else
Agreed. The Warlock is a unique caster. They're very narrow in terms of combat, much of the fun is playing them as both plot drivers and additional party roles. Warlocks can be a good face, good magical researcher, and can even be good, in the absence of a ranger or rogue skilled with such, as a seek-and-neutralize ace.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Pushing for a short rest each fight is pretty unrealistic, instead of trying, learn to use your spells and cantrips more effectively. Hex is an MVP for a reason, EB most rounds and so on. If you want to spell sling full leveled spells all the time, maybe play something else
Seems pretty reasonable unless the fight is very low to mid level. If there is any sort of actual party threat to the fight, a short rest to recover some HP and abilities is the logical thing to do. Your point is also valid though that for low level fights, Warlocks should be leaning mostly on cantrips. Eldritch Blast is your friend :)
You're not going to get a short rest EVERY fight, no. But a lot of parties I've seen don't short rest at all, they just go about their adventuring day until they feel a little battered, then pull back to somewhere with a door for a long rest. There's plenty of evidence in the system that the game designers intended short rests to happen after every combat unless there was a pressing reason why they wouldn't, and classes designed to key off of short rests rather than long - such as warlocks - suffer when they aren't allowed to take advantage of that quicker recharge built into their class.
Saying "warlocks shouldn't rely on short rests, manage your resources better" is a bit like saying that fighters, monks, or other martial characters with nothing but short-rest recharges on their abilities should 'manage their resources better'. Taking short rests to regain their short-rest abilities IS managing their resources, and constantly denying them the opportunity to do that is denying them one of the key strengths of their class.
If the sorcerer is sneering at you because he's throwing Fireballs every fight and ignoring short rests because he's at the back and never takes a punch while leaning on the fact that he has five times more spell slots than you do, try a test where the party has to deal with five or six combat encounters in a day, but with two or three interspersed short rests at the minimum. I.e. what the game designers originally envisioned, according to most source documents. See how well that sorcerer's doing at the end of the day.
Clerics aren't able to cast spells because they asked "is it right to do this thing?"
They're able to cast spells because they asked God to do it for them.
Also if you want to see what secondary stats people have. Check out the saving throw proficiencies people get.
That absolutely missed my point. Clerics cast spells because they ask their god for said power. I'm not reflecting on that. I'm going over the difference between wisdom and intelligence, and why that bears impact on the game. Or at least, originally impacted stats for the character, i.e. clerics having wisdom as a primary stat, as opposed to charisma, and why that should or shouldn't be the case.
I don't follow your second point, could you elaborate, please?
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I think every single class in the game starts with two proficient saving throws, one in their main stat and then another. The extra stat could pretty much universally beconsidered the secondary stat of the class as far as flavour and what not would go.
For example, Rogues are proficient in Dex saving throws (obviously) and then Int saving throws, Int being easily considered the other thing Rogues would be known for. If you wanted to create some kind of secondary stat buff system, you'd need look no further.
its worth reading this old post, about spell casting ability
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/106437/what-is-the-reasoning-behind-having-sorcerers-and-warlocks-spells-rely-on-char/106442
Investigation is about the only INT skill that would benefit a Rogue, (anyone, really...) but for some Rogues, CHA-based skills like Performance, Persuasion, and Deception would all be nice.
I'd hesitate to call this "universal." Rangers are proficient in Strength and Dexterity saves, but most people would consider Wisdom their secondary stat.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I mean, as far as I can see, Rangers should really be casting off of CHA anyways /s
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
no
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
No, I'm starting a campaign to get Rangers rebranded as the slutty, slutty thots we all know they are inside. Wisdom based rangers are a thing of the past baby, Charisma based Rangers are in. There's not a humanoid in the land that Rangers can't seduce!
Well played
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Intriguing....
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
You can play a smart warlock with strong force of personality and you don't need to switch the spell casting mod from CHA to INT. Level 1 Tiefling with Point Buy can get:
STR: 8 DEX:14 CON: 12 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 16
It's just the min/maxers that have the issue as they have to diversify their ability scores instead of being straight optimized.
My problem that I have when I play a warlock is that I burn through all my spells almost every battle. The ability scores and cantrips help but I end up feeling under powered compared to the rest of the group. I have high survivability rate but low offense for more than a battle or a few rounds
Warlocks should be pushing for short rests; if your party can short rest after every battle, or even every other battle, your warlock would keep up just fine. The class has an extremely powerful magical attack in Eldritch Blast, classic warlock tactics are to lean on EB the way the ranger leans on longbow attacks. Your pact magic shouldn't be one-and-done spell blasts, you should be looking for spells that turn the tide of battle or allow you access to new tactics. Leveled spellblasting is the domain of wizards and sorcerers; warlocks are magical archers and spellblades that should be focusing on clever tactics over raw force.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
Pushing for a short rest each fight is pretty unrealistic, instead of trying, learn to use your spells and cantrips more effectively. Hex is an MVP for a reason, EB most rounds and so on. If you want to spell sling full leveled spells all the time, maybe play something else
Question: what's the role of your character in the party? Are you always in battle / hack and slash? Or is this a particular combat-only issue? What damage cantrips, other than EB, Do you have? And how do you use board control and motion spells in combat?
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Agreed. The Warlock is a unique caster. They're very narrow in terms of combat, much of the fun is playing them as both plot drivers and additional party roles. Warlocks can be a good face, good magical researcher, and can even be good, in the absence of a ranger or rogue skilled with such, as a seek-and-neutralize ace.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Give a Mountain Dwarf a Pact of the Blade with a Fiendish Patreon and he can be a hellish force of nature….
Seems pretty reasonable unless the fight is very low to mid level. If there is any sort of actual party threat to the fight, a short rest to recover some HP and abilities is the logical thing to do. Your point is also valid though that for low level fights, Warlocks should be leaning mostly on cantrips. Eldritch Blast is your friend :)
You're not going to get a short rest EVERY fight, no. But a lot of parties I've seen don't short rest at all, they just go about their adventuring day until they feel a little battered, then pull back to somewhere with a door for a long rest. There's plenty of evidence in the system that the game designers intended short rests to happen after every combat unless there was a pressing reason why they wouldn't, and classes designed to key off of short rests rather than long - such as warlocks - suffer when they aren't allowed to take advantage of that quicker recharge built into their class.
Saying "warlocks shouldn't rely on short rests, manage your resources better" is a bit like saying that fighters, monks, or other martial characters with nothing but short-rest recharges on their abilities should 'manage their resources better'. Taking short rests to regain their short-rest abilities IS managing their resources, and constantly denying them the opportunity to do that is denying them one of the key strengths of their class.
If the sorcerer is sneering at you because he's throwing Fireballs every fight and ignoring short rests because he's at the back and never takes a punch while leaning on the fact that he has five times more spell slots than you do, try a test where the party has to deal with five or six combat encounters in a day, but with two or three interspersed short rests at the minimum. I.e. what the game designers originally envisioned, according to most source documents. See how well that sorcerer's doing at the end of the day.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!