That's what I meant by definitions of squishy. Just because a class has less AC or hp doesn't make it squishy. It's if their AC or hp is so low they can be 'squished' by just about anything.
In 5e it is hard to kill any class because of the game design but I have been playing in multiple groups for years and I've never seen Wizards getting blown away like a leaf in the wind by anything.
You think I have to hold them up to every other class in the game to prove they're not squishy? They are the quite simply the best class in the game. Without rage the Barbarian is almost the squishiest in fact, I've seen their hp plummet when they don't have rage active and shortly after, in like a round or two, they're usually done. But you go right ahead and try to insult or provoke me by abandoning the facts as if that might convince anyone.
I did not insult you, I did not abandon any fact, and I never said that wizards were not the most powerful class in the game. I said they’re the squishiest. How do I define squishy,? Average HP, average AC, and average scores in the big three saving throws. They are the lowest across-the-board. That’s squishy.
What I mean by plummeting when they are not raging is that it drops at the normal rate like everyone else as opposed to having resistance to damage and only taking half.
Wizards, and most spell casting classes in general are traditionally "Squishy", but honestly have good defensive capability as a whole, even if it doesn't come from high AC or HP
Even at low levels, they can get out of pesky situations with a low level spell slot.
Some examples of ways to defend yourself with just 1st level spells would be the following:
Need to run from a melee enemy? Use expeditious retreat, and disengage action... expeditious retreat and take the opportunity attack if you can tank it and use a regular action, since the melee enemy can't get you unless dashing.
Need something between you and an opponent running towards you? Cast grease and run back. They'll have to expend movement to get around it, likely needing to waste action economy by using the dash action to get to you
Thunderwave's knock back and damage can clear the worst case scenario of being surrounded by a horde. BTW a good tip it to jump in place and cast Thunderwave downward, to hit enemies around you, if they're in multiple directions (this eliminates knock back however)
Need higher AC? Shield/Mage Armor
Need to slow down an opponent so they can't get to you? Ray of Frost! It's a cantrip too so no spell slots expended
Need to defend against an AOE spell? Use Absorb Elements
While it's a bit silly to expect all of these spells to be prepared/in your spell book at low levels, having some of these (especially mage armor/shield) will significantly boost survivability. Aside from spells which cover your base play style, defensive options should be at the front of your spellbook. Many newer players I've seen when playing spell casters tend to not take defensive spells, I think causing the "dies of 1d4 damage" belief among the community, which just isn't true In addition, wizards are backliners. While they have less HP, they don't need it as much since they aren't in melee much. They have good options to retreat into the backline if in a bad spot/in melee
Yes, Barbarian's have a d12 for HD which will give you a very high amount of hp. At first level they get 12 + CON bonus. And then at every other level you get 7 + CON bonus.
By comparison Wizards have the lowest HD with a d6, and only add 4 + CON bonus every level after the first.
If 'rocks fall' and deal 12 damage then Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Wizards could survive it.
But squishier classes like Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Warlock would not.
Even the Artificer would not... hmm since we used optimal circumstances before I guess if the Druid was already wildshaped then they would be knocked out of the wildshape and survive.
See that's a part of my definition for being squishy. Put the class in a scenario that might occur in game, and those that survive are not squishy, the rest get squished by the rocks.
False Life has a duration of an hour and will absorb on average 6 points of damage. It really is not sufficient to claim that it makes a wizard "not squishy." Especially when a Warlock can take the Fiendish Vigor invocation and have the ability to cast the spell at will, which actually does push them out of the "not squishy" category.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
False Life can be upcast (the Warlock invocation is always at 1st level) to gain even more temp hp.
For example a 3rd level Wizard with 23 hp can upcast the spell to gain 11 temp hp. Once those are gone then they can upcast it again to get another 11 temp hp.
They can wash/rinse/repeat with all 4 first level spell slots for 6 temp hp each.
In total that's 46 temp hp and 23 hp for a grand total of 69 hp that monsters will have to get through, all at level 3.
PS: If they somehow survive (they are the squishiest class) until later in the day when they find an hour to take a short rest they can get 2 first level spell slots back for another 12 temp hp so that's actually a grand total of 81 hp for the day.
Burning through your entire daily allotment of spell slots just to keep False Life active is quite possibly the worst strategy a wizard can have, aside from spamming Blade Barrier.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
A 30+AC Bladesinger with Resil:Con and Tough laughs at the question.
Wizards are the most powerful class in the game. You can build them into unstopple juggernauts if you aim to. Ir they can extremly fragile if you want to ignore defense entirely. Because they can do basically anything, depending on player choices, they'll range from the weakest most fragile dudes to the most unkillable in the game. They run the whole spectrum. They are the spectrum.
You can build a wizard to not be squishy. You can build a wizard to be thinner than paper. The flexibility of the wizard's spell list makes the difference. Without feats and without multiclassing, you tend to have a harder time making a bulky wizard, but you can do it. A dwarf wizard is part of the bones of what makes a "tank wizard".
Are wizards without a subclass made to be tough? How do you define tough? Are we ignoring anything that is optional? How do you do that, on a class that is built on options? Do we assume Mage Armor and Shield? Do we assume Silvery Barbs for crit negation? Absorb Elements for breath weapons? Do we assume they must have good Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution saves innately? Do we assume only the gear that comes starting with the class? At what level are we measuring?
Featless wizard:
A mountain dwarf wizard without a subclass can, with no feats, have a 17 AC without Shield (max of 22). They can have a +2 to Dexterity saves, +4 to Constitution saves, and +8 to Wisdom saves. They can have about 162 HP.
Is that respectable? Is that middling? Does it not count because they have to buy the half-plate necessary for that? Do we ignore resource expenditure? Do we factor it in? If yes, what is the metric? If we count cantrips, do we count Blade Ward?
Featless fighter:
A warforged fighter without a subclass can, with no feats, have a 22 AC. They can have a +3 to Dexterity saves, +11 to Constitution saves, and +5 to Wisdom saves. They can have about 224 HP.
Do we count Indomitable? Do we count the Defense fighting style? Does it not count because they have to buy the full plate necessary for that? Do we count the Eldritch Knight subclass? Which save is more important, Dex, Con, or Wis?
Without a metric to measure against, this is kind of a useless question. Anything can be built for anything. What can be stated objectively is as follows:
Wizards get no armor proficiency or shield proficiency. To make up for this, they can get Mage Armor and Shield.
Wizards get a low hit die, tied with Sorcerer. To make up for this, they can get False Life, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Silvery Barbs, and Shield.
Wizards have to choose between focusing on Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom as their saving throw priorities and defend against the effects that come from these. This is a choice every character has to make. They are incentivized to focus on Constitution for concentration saves, as Wisdom has proficiency. This investment means they probably won't have a high Dexterity, and so not a higher-than-middling AC with Mage Armor without using Shield.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I did not insult you, I did not abandon any fact, and I never said that wizards were not the most powerful class in the game. I said they’re the squishiest. How do I define squishy,? Average HP, average AC, and average scores in the big three saving throws. They are the lowest across-the-board. That’s squishy.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
If a barbarian is in a situation where their HP is plummeting, I have to ask how any other class would perform.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
What I mean by plummeting when they are not raging is that it drops at the normal rate like everyone else as opposed to having resistance to damage and only taking half.
Yes, but the barbarian will in nearly every instance still have more HP to absorb that damage than any other class would.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Wizards, and most spell casting classes in general are traditionally "Squishy", but honestly have good defensive capability as a whole, even if it doesn't come from high AC or HP
Even at low levels, they can get out of pesky situations with a low level spell slot.
Some examples of ways to defend yourself with just 1st level spells would be the following:
Need to run from a melee enemy? Use expeditious retreat, and disengage action... expeditious retreat and take the opportunity attack if you can tank it and use a regular action, since the melee enemy can't get you unless dashing.
Need something between you and an opponent running towards you? Cast grease and run back. They'll have to expend movement to get around it, likely needing to waste action economy by using the dash action to get to you
Thunderwave's knock back and damage can clear the worst case scenario of being surrounded by a horde. BTW a good tip it to jump in place and cast Thunderwave downward, to hit enemies around you, if they're in multiple directions (this eliminates knock back however)
Need higher AC? Shield/Mage Armor
Need to slow down an opponent so they can't get to you? Ray of Frost! It's a cantrip too so no spell slots expended
Need to defend against an AOE spell? Use Absorb Elements
While it's a bit silly to expect all of these spells to be prepared/in your spell book at low levels, having some of these (especially mage armor/shield) will significantly boost survivability. Aside from spells which cover your base play style, defensive options should be at the front of your spellbook. Many newer players I've seen when playing spell casters tend to not take defensive spells, I think causing the "dies of 1d4 damage" belief among the community, which just isn't true
In addition, wizards are backliners. While they have less HP, they don't need it as much since they aren't in melee much. They have good options to retreat into the backline if in a bad spot/in melee
Yes, Barbarian's have a d12 for HD which will give you a very high amount of hp. At first level they get 12 + CON bonus. And then at every other level you get 7 + CON bonus.
By comparison Wizards have the lowest HD with a d6, and only add 4 + CON bonus every level after the first.
If 'rocks fall' and deal 12 damage then Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Wizards could survive it.
But squishier classes like Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Warlock would not.
Even the Artificer would not... hmm since we used optimal circumstances before I guess if the Druid was already wildshaped then they would be knocked out of the wildshape and survive.
See that's a part of my definition for being squishy. Put the class in a scenario that might occur in game, and those that survive are not squishy, the rest get squished by the rocks.
False Life has a duration of an hour and will absorb on average 6 points of damage. It really is not sufficient to claim that it makes a wizard "not squishy." Especially when a Warlock can take the Fiendish Vigor invocation and have the ability to cast the spell at will, which actually does push them out of the "not squishy" category.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
False Life can be upcast (the Warlock invocation is always at 1st level) to gain even more temp hp.
For example a 3rd level Wizard with 23 hp can upcast the spell to gain 11 temp hp. Once those are gone then they can upcast it again to get another 11 temp hp.
They can wash/rinse/repeat with all 4 first level spell slots for 6 temp hp each.
In total that's 46 temp hp and 23 hp for a grand total of 69 hp that monsters will have to get through, all at level 3.
PS: If they somehow survive (they are the squishiest class) until later in the day when they find an hour to take a short rest they can get 2 first level spell slots back for another 12 temp hp so that's actually a grand total of 81 hp for the day.
Burning through your entire daily allotment of spell slots just to keep False Life active is quite possibly the worst strategy a wizard can have, aside from spamming Blade Barrier.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Honestly depends on your choices for race, spells, ability scores, feats, subclass ect .
A 30+AC Bladesinger with Resil:Con and Tough laughs at the question.
Wizards are the most powerful class in the game. You can build them into unstopple juggernauts if you aim to. Ir they can extremly fragile if you want to ignore defense entirely. Because they can do basically anything, depending on player choices, they'll range from the weakest most fragile dudes to the most unkillable in the game. They run the whole spectrum. They are the spectrum.
I got quotes!
You can build a wizard to not be squishy. You can build a wizard to be thinner than paper. The flexibility of the wizard's spell list makes the difference. Without feats and without multiclassing, you tend to have a harder time making a bulky wizard, but you can do it. A dwarf wizard is part of the bones of what makes a "tank wizard".
Are wizards without a subclass made to be tough? How do you define tough? Are we ignoring anything that is optional? How do you do that, on a class that is built on options? Do we assume Mage Armor and Shield? Do we assume Silvery Barbs for crit negation? Absorb Elements for breath weapons? Do we assume they must have good Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution saves innately? Do we assume only the gear that comes starting with the class? At what level are we measuring?
Featless wizard:
A mountain dwarf wizard without a subclass can, with no feats, have a 17 AC without Shield (max of 22). They can have a +2 to Dexterity saves, +4 to Constitution saves, and +8 to Wisdom saves. They can have about 162 HP.
Is that respectable? Is that middling? Does it not count because they have to buy the half-plate necessary for that? Do we ignore resource expenditure? Do we factor it in? If yes, what is the metric? If we count cantrips, do we count Blade Ward?
Featless fighter:
A warforged fighter without a subclass can, with no feats, have a 22 AC. They can have a +3 to Dexterity saves, +11 to Constitution saves, and +5 to Wisdom saves. They can have about 224 HP.
Do we count Indomitable? Do we count the Defense fighting style? Does it not count because they have to buy the full plate necessary for that? Do we count the Eldritch Knight subclass? Which save is more important, Dex, Con, or Wis?
Without a metric to measure against, this is kind of a useless question. Anything can be built for anything. What can be stated objectively is as follows: