Please give examples of why Wizards are squishy... or not squishy, depending on whether or not you believe this to be true.
I think they are squishy, they have a d6 hit die, lowest in the game, and they are not known for incredible Constitution. Maybe this is why I chose the bladesinger. Feels like you can get a little more survivability. But if you want more hit points, try a different class, the tough feat, or boost your constitution.
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Yes, they are designed that way to counter how powerful their spells get. They have low AC and HP. They are still manageable though.
I (Stars Druid) have a Wizard in my party with a 10 CON and spent a long battle (9 turns) burning my spell slots healing him while also handling the enemy and maintaining a concentration spell. He was right before me in the initiative order...so he rarely got a turn....he would get knocked out...I'd heal him, and he'd get knocked out before his turn again. We were level 5.
Tactically, there are some times when it's preferable to blast the enemy that's been attacking the wizard instead of immediately healing the wizard every time he hits zero.
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Short answer: yes, they are squishy. They have teeny-tiny, mincey li’l hit dice, no proficiency in any physical saving throws, and no armor proficiency. They’s designed to be squishy, ‘cause they’s so darned poweyfull.
There are so many options for increasing hp and AC available to Wizards in 5e that I don't think they are as squishy as previous editions.
hp:
boost CON take the Tough feat cast False Life choose school of abjuration for the arcane ward (anything else anyone can think of?)
AC:
boost DEX start taking armor feats (light, medium, heavy, heavy master etc.) cast Mage Armor choose bladesinger for INT bonus to AC (anything else anyone can think of?)
By making the right choices in some cases they will have higher hp and AC then other classes. Not all, obviously, but if they beat out the average hp or AC how can I seriously think of them as squishy?!
Oh, they’re way more robust than in previous editions, but they’re still squishy compared to their contemporaries. In 2e you could roll up a 1st level Wiz with 1 HP if you were unlucky. Now a Wiz can’t possibly start with fewer than 5 HP, but even if they start with as many as 9 HP, which is the max possible with either point buy or standard array, that’s barely on par with most 1st level PCs that start with 9-11 on average. And that means likely sacrificing something somewhere else where those other PCs aren’t sacrificing anything for their HP. And those other PCs also start with armor proficiencies and likely a physical saving throw proficiency too.
In the hands of someone who doesn't know what they're doing - yes. Wizards have the lowest hit die and arguably the lowest AC if unprepared. They have INT and WIS saves so at least 1 of two most common saves. Wizards start out without armor proficiency so that a base AC of 10 plus DEX mod. Looks squishy but make your starting DEX a 16 then you're looking at AC of 13, throw in a mage armor that's base 13 +3 for a 16 AC that's equal to how most martials start off without shield.
In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing the Wizard is nigh unassailable: As a Wizard you should NOT be in the front lines but ideally mid/back line and always with cover if there's any. if a battle's occurring in a room then you should not be in that room - firebolt has a range of 120 ft for a reason. Poke your head in fire off spells and duck behind the wall.
D&D pearl of Wisdom 01: Squishy is a Sin - don't put yourself in a position to be squishy.
Just to get a clearer idea and understanding of just how squishy or NOT squishy a Wizard is here's a little hypothetical example.
A Barbarian can start with 15 hp (using standard array or point buy) and let's say over the first two rounds of a fight they get hit once each round for 7 damage. That would be 14 damage and they would survive with 1 hp remaining. But to be fair Barbarians would usually be raging and suffer half damage (3.5) from each attack which would be 7 total. Actually, due to the always round down unless specified otherwise rule they would actually take 3 damage each round for a total of 6 damage and survive with 9 hp left.
A Wizard can start with 9 hp and let's say they suffer through the same two rounds of fighting, not having the ability to rage they would take the full 7 damage each round and fall unconscious in round 2. But to fair the Barbarian got to use their features, abilities and things so why not let the Wizard do the same. The Wizard's meat & potatoes are his spells so let's say they have cast False Life and rolled a 2, that would mean they have 6 temp hp and would actually survive the hypothetical scenario with 1 hp.
Wait a minute, doesn't that mean the Wizard is in the same boat as the Barbarian (one of the least squishy classes in the game).
I guess it all comes down to what each person's definition of squishy is. Back in 2e if a wizard had 1 hp they could be killed by a single attack from a house cat (kitten). But now in 5e the Wizard is one of the few classes that can survive the hypothetical scenario described above.
It definitely doesn't sound all that squishy to me anymore.
The difference is that the Barbarian probably has a higher AC too, and will likely only suffer one hit instead of two. Or, if the Wiz has cast mage armor and false life, now they’re outta spell slots.
A fair point to be sure but keeping with standard array or point buy just what are the Barbarians stats and where does he put them. His AC is based off of his unarmored defense feature which adds his DEX and CON bonuses, with nothing higher than a +3 how many of these bonuses does he have. I'm thinking either two +3 bonuses or a +3 and two +2 bonuses.
Is his AC 16 and STR +1, or AC 15 and STR +2, or maybe even AC 14 and STR +3?
A Wizard has similar problems trying to decide how high to make his INT bonus and still have some left over for DEX and CON to improve his AC and hp.
Wizards could start with an AC of 13 and be able to increase it with the Shield spell. But as you pointed out at 1st level they only have 2 spell slots. Then again Barbarians can only rage 2x a day.
There are positives and negatives to each and every class. And no one stays at 1st level forever (at least I hope not) so the Barbarian can pick up a shield to get a +2 bonus to AC but would then have to use a one-handed weapon instead of a mighty two-handed one, and the Wizard would get more spell slots at higher levels.
However anyone looks at it the Wizards of 5e are not getting one-shot by a house cat any longer like the ones from 2e so I think that's at least one point toward not being considered squishy any longer.
I’m assuming optimal conditions, so Point Buy with 15 Str, Dex, Con, and 3× +1 from racial ASIs for the Barbarian, and 15 Dex, Con, Int with 3× +1 from ASIs for the Wiz.
So the Barbarian would have a starting AC of 16 (+3 to DEX and CON).
And so would the Wizard, casting Mage Armor then taking a short rest to recoup the spell slot via his arcane recovery feature and still having a base AC of 13 for about 7 more hours, and his +3 to DEX.
Both can have AC 16 at first level, under optimal conditions. (And since it's optimal conditions the Wizard can get an AC of 21 for a few attacks temporarily catapulting him past the squishy Barbarian.)
So the Barbarian would have a starting AC of 16 (+3 to DEX and CON).
And so would the Wizard, casting Mage Armor then taking a short rest to recoup the spell slot via his arcane recovery feature and still having a base AC of 13 for about 7 more hours, and his +3 to DEX.
Both can have AC 16 at first level, under optimal conditions. (And since it's optimal conditions the Wizard can get an AC of 21 for a few attacks temporarily catapulting him past the squishy Barbarian.)
Yeah, I said it.
Barbarians are squishy!
As I said, the Barb would have higher AC unless the Wiz cast mage armor. I already took that into account in my last response. But the Wiz had to spend a resource to get that, whereas the Barb didn’t. And as you pointed out the Barb could carry a shield too if they want to. If the Wiz casts the shield spell that’s another resource expended for a very temporary buff. So the Wiz had to dump their best save (Wis) to get both “high” HP and AC, and spend a few resources to become almost as robust as the Barbarian is just walkin’ around normally, and the Barbarian gets to keep their good save (Con) too. Wizards are definitively squishier than Barbarians.
Barbarians have the highest HD in the game and Wizards have the lowest....but I realize you're making a joke. :)
It was a joke IamSposta.
But even if the Wizard has to expend resources that's what they're there for. Most of your arguments put the Barbarian just barely ahead of the Wizard and sometimes even behind. This doesn't sound even remotely squishy to me.
Yes, squishier than the Barbarian but not in the slightest squishy.
If a lowly goblin got a crit and rolled max damage it could one-shot every class in the game except for Barbarian and Wizard. If a Wizard is squishy then what does that make everyone else... powder puffs?
My guess why we can't see eye to eye on this is that we probably have different definitions of what is squishy.
Back in 2e when a cat could one shot a Wizard, yeah that was squishy. But now they are only slightly behind some of the best classes in the game and way out ahead of most all the other classes.
That's not my definition of squishy. Yes they have the lowest HD in the game, so what. As I've shown it hardly matters.
Squishy to me means they can be hit easily and dropped quickly. In 5e this is no longer the case.
For the Wiz to hold up with that Barb, they are expending absolutely all of their resources meaning they have nothing left for utility or offense. All they’re left with is cantrips. That’s it. Meanwhile the Barb is still swinging big with either 1d12+ for damage, or 1d8+ and they get a higher AC from a shield. That’s 9 damage per attack, or 7 per with a shield, Meanwhile the Wiz is looking at 5 damage on average with their fire bolt, and their potential minimum damage is way lower down at 1 where the Barb is doing at least 4 every hit.
In order for the Wiz to not be squishy, they’re sacrificing their 1 good saving throw (Wis) down in the toilet, but the Barb has their good save (Con) maxed out. That right there leaves the Wiz squishier by comparison. If the Wiz boosts their strong save, they have to sacrifice either HP or AC. They just don’t have enough to put it everywhere.
If your definition of “not squishy” means they can’t get 1-shotted by a kitten anymore then you’re right. But if your definition is to hold them up in comparison to every other class in the game, then they’re even squishier than Sorcerers and Monks. They’re the squishiest in fact. But you go right ahead and believe whatee—eever you want.
That's what I meant by definitions of squishy. Just because a class has less AC or hp doesn't make it squishy. It's if their AC or hp is so low they can be 'squished' by just about anything.
In 5e it is hard to kill any class because of the game design but I have been playing in multiple groups for years and I've never seen Wizards getting blown away like a leaf in the wind by anything.
You think I have to hold them up to every other class in the game to prove they're not squishy? They are the quite simply the best class in the game. Without rage the Barbarian is almost the squishiest in fact, I've seen their hp plummet when they don't have rage active and shortly after, in like a round or two, they're usually done. But you go right ahead and try to insult or provoke me by abandoning the facts as if that might convince anyone.
That's what I meant by definitions of squishy. Just because a class has less AC or hp doesn't make it squishy. It's if their AC or hp is so low they can be 'squished' by just about anything.
In 5e it is hard to kill any class because of the game design but I have been playing in multiple groups for years and I've never seen Wizards getting blown away like a leaf in the wind by anything.
You think I have to hold them up to every other class in the game to prove they're not squishy? They are the quite simply the best class in the game. Without rage the Barbarian is almost the squishiest in fact, I've seen their hp plummet when they don't have rage active and shortly after, in like a round or two, they're usually done. But you go right ahead and try to insult or provoke me by abandoning the facts as if that might convince anyone.
If a wizard is not squishy, what class is? If having low AC and HP doesn't make a class squishy, what does? By your definition, it doesn't seem like any class would qualify as squishy.
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Please give examples of why Wizards are squishy... or not squishy, depending on whether or not you believe this to be true.
I think they are squishy, they have a d6 hit die, lowest in the game, and they are not known for incredible Constitution. Maybe this is why I chose the bladesinger. Feels like you can get a little more survivability. But if you want more hit points, try a different class, the tough feat, or boost your constitution.
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Yes, they are designed that way to counter how powerful their spells get. They have low AC and HP. They are still manageable though.
I (Stars Druid) have a Wizard in my party with a 10 CON and spent a long battle (9 turns) burning my spell slots healing him while also handling the enemy and maintaining a concentration spell. He was right before me in the initiative order...so he rarely got a turn....he would get knocked out...I'd heal him, and he'd get knocked out before his turn again. We were level 5.
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Tactically, there are some times when it's preferable to blast the enemy that's been attacking the wizard instead of immediately healing the wizard every time he hits zero.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Short answer: yes, they are squishy. They have teeny-tiny, mincey li’l hit dice, no proficiency in any physical saving throws, and no armor proficiency. They’s designed to be squishy, ‘cause they’s so darned poweyfull.
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There are so many options for increasing hp and AC available to Wizards in 5e that I don't think they are as squishy as previous editions.
hp:
boost CON
take the Tough feat
cast False Life
choose school of abjuration for the arcane ward
(anything else anyone can think of?)
AC:
boost DEX
start taking armor feats (light, medium, heavy, heavy master etc.)
cast Mage Armor
choose bladesinger for INT bonus to AC
(anything else anyone can think of?)
By making the right choices in some cases they will have higher hp and AC then other classes. Not all, obviously, but if they beat out the average hp or AC how can I seriously think of them as squishy?!
Oh, they’re way more robust than in previous editions, but they’re still squishy compared to their contemporaries. In 2e you could roll up a 1st level Wiz with 1 HP if you were unlucky. Now a Wiz can’t possibly start with fewer than 5 HP, but even if they start with as many as 9 HP, which is the max possible with either point buy or standard array, that’s barely on par with most 1st level PCs that start with 9-11 on average. And that means likely sacrificing something somewhere else where those other PCs aren’t sacrificing anything for their HP. And those other PCs also start with armor proficiencies and likely a physical saving throw proficiency too.
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Yes and no.
In the hands of someone who doesn't know what they're doing - yes. Wizards have the lowest hit die and arguably the lowest AC if unprepared. They have INT and WIS saves so at least 1 of two most common saves.
Wizards start out without armor proficiency so that a base AC of 10 plus DEX mod. Looks squishy but make your starting DEX a 16 then you're looking at AC of 13, throw in a mage armor that's base 13 +3 for a 16 AC that's equal to how most martials start off without shield.
In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing the Wizard is nigh unassailable:
As a Wizard you should NOT be in the front lines but ideally mid/back line and always with cover if there's any. if a battle's occurring in a room then you should not be in that room - firebolt has a range of 120 ft for a reason. Poke your head in fire off spells and duck behind the wall.
D&D pearl of Wisdom 01: Squishy is a Sin - don't put yourself in a position to be squishy.
Just to get a clearer idea and understanding of just how squishy or NOT squishy a Wizard is here's a little hypothetical example.
A Barbarian can start with 15 hp (using standard array or point buy) and let's say over the first two rounds of a fight they get hit once each round for 7 damage. That would be 14 damage and they would survive with 1 hp remaining. But to be fair Barbarians would usually be raging and suffer half damage (3.5) from each attack which would be 7 total. Actually, due to the always round down unless specified otherwise rule they would actually take 3 damage each round for a total of 6 damage and survive with 9 hp left.
A Wizard can start with 9 hp and let's say they suffer through the same two rounds of fighting, not having the ability to rage they would take the full 7 damage each round and fall unconscious in round 2. But to fair the Barbarian got to use their features, abilities and things so why not let the Wizard do the same. The Wizard's meat & potatoes are his spells so let's say they have cast False Life and rolled a 2, that would mean they have 6 temp hp and would actually survive the hypothetical scenario with 1 hp.
Wait a minute, doesn't that mean the Wizard is in the same boat as the Barbarian (one of the least squishy classes in the game).
I guess it all comes down to what each person's definition of squishy is. Back in 2e if a wizard had 1 hp they could be killed by a single attack from a house cat (kitten). But now in 5e the Wizard is one of the few classes that can survive the hypothetical scenario described above.
It definitely doesn't sound all that squishy to me anymore.
The difference is that the Barbarian probably has a higher AC too, and will likely only suffer one hit instead of two. Or, if the Wiz has cast mage armor and false life, now they’re outta spell slots.
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A fair point to be sure but keeping with standard array or point buy just what are the Barbarians stats and where does he put them. His AC is based off of his unarmored defense feature which adds his DEX and CON bonuses, with nothing higher than a +3 how many of these bonuses does he have. I'm thinking either two +3 bonuses or a +3 and two +2 bonuses.
Is his AC 16 and STR +1, or AC 15 and STR +2, or maybe even AC 14 and STR +3?
A Wizard has similar problems trying to decide how high to make his INT bonus and still have some left over for DEX and CON to improve his AC and hp.
Wizards could start with an AC of 13 and be able to increase it with the Shield spell. But as you pointed out at 1st level they only have 2 spell slots. Then again Barbarians can only rage 2x a day.
There are positives and negatives to each and every class. And no one stays at 1st level forever (at least I hope not) so the Barbarian can pick up a shield to get a +2 bonus to AC but would then have to use a one-handed weapon instead of a mighty two-handed one, and the Wizard would get more spell slots at higher levels.
However anyone looks at it the Wizards of 5e are not getting one-shot by a house cat any longer like the ones from 2e so I think that's at least one point toward not being considered squishy any longer.
I’m assuming optimal conditions, so Point Buy with 15 Str, Dex, Con, and 3× +1 from racial ASIs for the Barbarian, and 15 Dex, Con, Int with 3× +1 from ASIs for the Wiz.
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So the Barbarian would have a starting AC of 16 (+3 to DEX and CON).
And so would the Wizard, casting Mage Armor then taking a short rest to recoup the spell slot via his arcane recovery feature and still having a base AC of 13 for about 7 more hours, and his +3 to DEX.
Both can have AC 16 at first level, under optimal conditions. (And since it's optimal conditions the Wizard can get an AC of 21 for a few attacks temporarily catapulting him past the squishy Barbarian.)
Yeah, I said it.
Barbarians are squishy!
Barbarians have the highest HD in the game and Wizards have the lowest....but I realize you're making a joke. :)
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Yeah, lol.
Barbarians aren't squishy. But even though Wizards have the lowest HD they're not squishy either.
The days of 2e squishy Wizards getting one-shot by cats is far in the rear view mirror.
Not saying they are the toughest around but they are by no means squishy any longer.
As I said, the Barb would have higher AC unless the Wiz cast mage armor. I already took that into account in my last response. But the Wiz had to spend a resource to get that, whereas the Barb didn’t. And as you pointed out the Barb could carry a shield too if they want to. If the Wiz casts the shield spell that’s another resource expended for a very temporary buff. So the Wiz had to dump their best save (Wis) to get both “high” HP and AC, and spend a few resources to become almost as robust as the Barbarian is just walkin’ around normally, and the Barbarian gets to keep their good save (Con) too. Wizards are definitively squishier than Barbarians.
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It was a joke IamSposta.
But even if the Wizard has to expend resources that's what they're there for. Most of your arguments put the Barbarian just barely ahead of the Wizard and sometimes even behind. This doesn't sound even remotely squishy to me.
Yes, squishier than the Barbarian but not in the slightest squishy.
If a lowly goblin got a crit and rolled max damage it could one-shot every class in the game except for Barbarian and Wizard. If a Wizard is squishy then what does that make everyone else... powder puffs?
My guess why we can't see eye to eye on this is that we probably have different definitions of what is squishy.
Back in 2e when a cat could one shot a Wizard, yeah that was squishy. But now they are only slightly behind some of the best classes in the game and way out ahead of most all the other classes.
That's not my definition of squishy. Yes they have the lowest HD in the game, so what. As I've shown it hardly matters.
Squishy to me means they can be hit easily and dropped quickly. In 5e this is no longer the case.
You’re ignoring two major things:
If your definition of “not squishy” means they can’t get 1-shotted by a kitten anymore then you’re right. But if your definition is to hold them up in comparison to every other class in the game, then they’re even squishier than Sorcerers and Monks. They’re the squishiest in fact. But you go right ahead and believe whatee—eever you want.
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That's what I meant by definitions of squishy. Just because a class has less AC or hp doesn't make it squishy. It's if their AC or hp is so low they can be 'squished' by just about anything.
In 5e it is hard to kill any class because of the game design but I have been playing in multiple groups for years and I've never seen Wizards getting blown away like a leaf in the wind by anything.
You think I have to hold them up to every other class in the game to prove they're not squishy? They are the quite simply the best class in the game. Without rage the Barbarian is almost the squishiest in fact, I've seen their hp plummet when they don't have rage active and shortly after, in like a round or two, they're usually done. But you go right ahead and try to insult or provoke me by abandoning the facts as if that might convince anyone.
If a wizard is not squishy, what class is? If having low AC and HP doesn't make a class squishy, what does? By your definition, it doesn't seem like any class would qualify as squishy.