Bladesingers are a very strong Wizard subclass, but not a great melee combatant.
I disagree. While they can't make use of Great Weapon Master due to Bladesong's limitations, they can certainly push out a lot of damage with haste or tenser's transformation. On defense, we have mage armor, mirror image, contingency and shield (unless transformation is on). Once you get Song of Victory things start to get a bit ridiculous.
Would a bladesinger player seriously go this far into martial specializing? Probably not, but not many characters can say they can go toe-to-toe with a martial class and still drop meteors on an army.
EDIT: Forgot to mention absorb elements, feather fall, blur and Song of Defense for defensive options. When you have a d6 hit die, every survival option counts.
Bladesingers are a very strong Wizard subclass, but not a great melee combatant.
I disagree. While they can't make use of Great Weapon Master due to Bladesong's limitations, they can certainly push out a lot of damage with haste or tenser's transformation. On defense, we have mage armor, mirror image, contingency and shield (unless transformation is on). Once you get Song of Victory things start to get a bit ridiculous.
Would a bladesinger player seriously go this far into martial specializing? Probably not, but not many characters can say they can go toe-to-toe with a martial class and still drop meteors on an army.
Not to mention Shadowblade; which both boosts damage and can be thrown, keeping the Bladesinger at a reasonable distance.
Plus, advantage in dark spaces.
Add some of the new "Summon (X) Spirit" spells, and the Bladesinger now has considerable options on the battlefield.
I honestly never got why it was a wizard subclass, at the very least, why wizard only? Why not a blade singer bard? How about a Sorcerer? Even a warlock...
I honestly never got why it was a wizard subclass, at the very least, why wizard only? Why not a blade singer bard? How about a Sorcerer? Even a warlock...
Because Bards rather sing with their voice, Sorcerers are too cool for melee and Warlocks can't find a singing Patron.
On a more serious note, Bards and Warlocks have their own gish subclasses in Hexblade and College of Swords. Only the poor Sorcerers have been left out :(
I've got a ranger(4)-bladesinger(8) and I have a blast in melee. If I can build up during a significant battle, it's:
+8 to-hit with frostbrand scimitar
one attack is Green Flame Blade: 1d6+4 slashing, +1d6 cold, +2d8 fire, +2d8 radiant/necro/cold for 5th level Spirit Shroud. +1d8 slashing for colossus slayer if they're wounded.
The other attack is 1d6+4 slashing, +1d6 cold, +2d8 radiant/necro/cold for 5th level Spirit Shroud.
Bonus attack with an off-hand scimitar+1: 1d6+5, +2d8 radiant/necro/cold for 5th level Spirit Shroud.
It's a hoot! (I'm not unbeatable by any measure, but it's hilarious to get all that going. War Caster to help make sure it stays up.)
I started my Bladesinger after a first level of fighter. With two weapon fighting and the Blur and Shield spell my brother (the DM) calls the Bladesinger "broken." Yet my Bladesinger has only been struck in battle twice since 3rd level. Meanwhile my Bladesinger is a great combination of spell and sword. It is a fun combination to be so flexible in a game. As for me, I wouldn't play another because I would miss either the sword or the spell.
I honestly never got why it was a wizard subclass, at the very least, why wizard only? Why not a blade singer bard? How about a Sorcerer? Even a warlock...
Because Bards rather sing with their voice, Sorcerers are too cool for melee and Warlocks can't find a singing Patron.
On a more serious note, Bards and Warlocks have their own gish subclasses in Hexblade and College of Swords. Only the poor Sorcerers have been left out :(
Way back in the ancient times of D&D, the elf class (yes, it was a class), unlike the fighter or magic caster, would be able to both fight martially and cast arcane spells quite decently; the original 5e Bladesinger from SCAG nods to this in the race restriction. I don't even think Sorcerers and Warlocks were really a thing back then.
Bladesingers are a big of an odd subclass, and if you play RAW then you need to be careful with spell selection. For example, if you're wielding a weapon in one hand then your other hand needs to be free to cast spells that don't make use of your weapon. At least, until you pick up War Caster; if your table is using feats. Which means you're not wielding a spellcasting focus like a rod or staff. You might be better off starting with a component pouch.
You also don't need that much Dexterity. Lots of people will say to stack it, anyway, because of the light armor, but in terms of AC it's not that big a deal. You're already adding your Intelligence modifier to AC, so even with a 10 that's AC 17 by, probably, 8th level. And with spells and magic items it can easily get higher. My point is that Strength is just as viable a statistic for wielding your chosen weapon. This is one of the few wizard subclasses that would really benefit from gauntlets of ogre power, especially if you have a weapon and proficiency that could benefit from it. Say, a high elf who can wield a longsword. You know how many magic longswords there are in the game?
And then you're getting into what kinds of spells should you be learning and preparing. If you're spending your Bonus Action on that first round starting your bladesong, then you've got your action to cast a spell. And while stacking defenses with spells like mirror image is tempting, you're already boosting your AC by a considerable margin. And you may have other spells, like absorb elements and shield, to further bolster your defenses. So why not go on the offensive with something like flaming sphere? Yes, it requires concentration. But you have a reinforced saving throw, don't you? It also provides illumination, scales upward in damage with higher spell slots, lets you deal damage to targets other than where you are, and can be repositioned with a Bonus Action you're not using to attack or cast spells with.
Everyone says to improve Dexterity, pick a rapier, and then pick shadow blade. But that becomes boring right quick. Dare to be different.
For fun, I made dual wielding bladesinger (it is major NPC, but made fully using player rules and with point buy system). In one hand scimitar +1 with Ruby of the war mage attached and with other Shadowblade. He can cast everything both weapons in hands (warcaster feat + Ruby cover S and M needs) and at lvl8 has ac20 with bladesong active (25 with shield spell) and does tons of damage on melee.
The Bladesinger sacrifices the improvements to spellcasting that other schools of wizardry get in order to become a somewhat decent melee combatant.
On the other hand the wizard is a very good spellcaster anyway, so you're not giving up too much to become a bladesinger.
Four spells, absorb elements, mage armour, false life, and shadow blade added together make the class pretty competent. Use your highest spell slot for false life to boost your HP. Mage armour give you reasonable AC combined with your good dexterity, and shadow blade gives you a very strong melee weapon. Absorb elements gives you a bit of additional protection against spells that likely bypass your AC. Always play as a High Elf as it's thematic and also extra cantrips are good. For stats, using point buy, I'd go with Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10. At level 4 take Resilient (Con), and at level 8 Elven Accuracy (Dex). After that I'd maximize intelligence, then dexterity.
Mage Armor isn't needed. Blur is far superior. Being an elf your Dex is high and your wearing studded leather. That takes you close to your Mage Armor AC number to begin with. Adding Disadvantage with Blur is awesome. Add War Caster and your concentration spell saves are rock solid.
I really want to see a bladesinger in action. In my mind it's not as good as a pure caster wizard. So here is why and my questions:
Usually combats are about 3 roundsof action and 1 to 2 rounds of "clean up", rarely they are 4-5 Rounds + 1 o 2 rounds clean up. If the Bladesinger uses the first round just for preparation and getting somewhat combat-ready he loses 20- 33% of his time during combat just for preparation. sometimes, as far as i read, he even has to recast something like blur or mirror image.
On the other side i always read something like: "Bladesong combined with Blurr, Mirror Image and shield you are a very good tank use Absorb elements if needed". That are quite a lot of resources used just to be a good tank. A fighter with a fightingstyle, shield and maybe one feat can achieve nearly the same goal for the whole adventuring day.
So here are my questions:
How does this really play out at your tables?
How are the combatsituations, that a bladesinger doeas something equivalent usefull like web or another controlspell / buff of an ally?
How long can a bladesinger tank in combatsituations compared to other tanks that don't rely so heavily on spellslots?
How many encounters can a Bladesinger use his full potential? Especialy in tier 1 and 2?
Example: we have a Druid, Cleric, Ranger Archer, and a Fighter in our party. When the situation becomes melee heavy we only have one dedicated for melee at the onset. The Bladesinger makes two (being engaged in the battle from the start casting Blur and Bladesong.) Bladesinger AC 21 with disadvantage plus the reaction use of sheild for AC 26. The following round I am using Scimitars 1d6+4, 1d6+5, and Lightning Lure 2d8. For an average of 20 damage approximately. The Druid is a Moon Druid with battlefield control spells until pressed into Dire Wolf shape change. The Cleric buffs everyone but isn't strong in melee. The Ranger is an automatic hit machine but poor in melee.
I really want to see a bladesinger in action. In my mind it's not as good as a pure caster wizard. So here is why and my questions:
Usually combats are about 3 roundsof action and 1 to 2 rounds of "clean up", rarely they are 4-5 Rounds + 1 o 2 rounds clean up. If the Bladesinger uses the first round just for preparation and getting somewhat combat-ready he loses 20- 33% of his time during combat just for preparation. sometimes, as far as i read, he even has to recast something like blur or mirror image.
On the other side i always read something like: "Bladesong combined with Blurr, Mirror Image and shield you are a very good tank use Absorb elements if needed". That are quite a lot of resources used just to be a good tank. A fighter with a fightingstyle, shield and maybe one feat can achieve nearly the same goal for the whole adventuring day.
So here are my questions:
How does this really play out at your tables?
How are the combatsituations, that a bladesinger doeas something equivalent usefull like web or another controlspell / buff of an ally?
How long can a bladesinger tank in combatsituations compared to other tanks that don't rely so heavily on spellslots?
How many encounters can a Bladesinger use his full potential? Especialy in tier 1 and 2?
I've been DM for two bladesingers: one moon elf (pre-Tasha's) and one drow (post-Tasha's).
It depends on the combat, but usually pretty well. The biggest difference is they prefer to fight up close with a blade cantrip (e.g. green-flame blade) instead of at a distance (e.g. fire bolt). But that's not surprising. They can activate bladesong for the speed and AC buff and rush in for a decent attack on the opening round.
Actually pretty common. Adding their Intelligence modifier to their saving throws for Concentration encourages them to use those spells and not be a blaster. I've seen enlarge/reduce, mass fly, hold person, and web (combo-ed with other spells that deal fire damage). They're still a wizard; a "controller" to borrow from 4E. They're just also competent in melee.
This is a common misconception; bladesingers are not really tanks. Too many people thinking tanking is just standing there with high AC and holding ground, and that's not tanking. A tank is an anchor around whom the party fights. Their very presence draws fire, protecting allies. When they move, enemies reposition to meet them. It's about controlling the flow of combat. And, yes, that sounds a bit a wizard. But then every wizard would be a tank because every wizard can do that. But that's not them. A barbarian has Reckless Attacks to draw fire. A fighter (battle master) has Goading Attack to "pull" single targets. A paladin has compelled duel for a similar effect that costs a spell slot but lasts for more than one round. In theory, a bladesinger can have 22 AC without relying on magic items or spells. So what? Why is an enemy going to bother attacking such a hard-to-hit target? And their hit points are crap, so when they do take damage (and they will) it's going to hurt so much more. Do not let your AC fool you into thinking you can tank. Because an AoE will knock you on your ass. The AC bonus is there to help you survive, not hold the front lines.
That depends on what you mean by their "full potential". If you're just talking about their Bladesong, the updated bladesinger is at their peak twice per long rest in Tier 1 (levels 1-4) and 3-4 times per long rest in Tier 2 (levels 5-10). This is because the number of times you can use your Bladesong is now tied to your proficiency bonus; rather than just twice per short rest. If you're talking spell slots and what they bring to the table, then it's probably 2-3 times per long rest because of Arcane Recovery.
I really want to see a bladesinger in action. In my mind it's not as good as a pure caster wizard. So here is why and my questions:
Usually combats are about 3 roundsof action and 1 to 2 rounds of "clean up", rarely they are 4-5 Rounds + 1 o 2 rounds clean up. If the Bladesinger uses the first round just for preparation and getting somewhat combat-ready he loses 20- 33% of his time during combat just for preparation. sometimes, as far as i read, he even has to recast something like blur or mirror image.
On the other side i always read something like: "Bladesong combined with Blurr, Mirror Image and shield you are a very good tank use Absorb elements if needed". That are quite a lot of resources used just to be a good tank. A fighter with a fightingstyle, shield and maybe one feat can achieve nearly the same goal for the whole adventuring day.
So here are my questions:
How does this really play out at your tables?
How are the combatsituations, that a bladesinger doeas something equivalent usefull like web or another controlspell / buff of an ally?
How long can a bladesinger tank in combatsituations compared to other tanks that don't rely so heavily on spellslots?
How many encounters can a Bladesinger use his full potential? Especialy in tier 1 and 2?
I've been DM for two bladesingers: one moon elf (pre-Tasha's) and one drow (post-Tasha's).
It depends on the combat, but usually pretty well. The biggest difference is they prefer to fight up close with a blade cantrip (e.g. green-flame blade) instead of at a distance (e.g. fire bolt). But that's not surprising. They can activate bladesong for the speed and AC buff and rush in for a decent attack on the opening round.
Actually pretty common. Adding their Intelligence modifier to their saving throws for Concentration encourages them to use those spells and not be a blaster. I've seen enlarge/reduce, mass fly, hold person, and web (combo-ed with other spells that deal fire damage). They're still a wizard; a "controller" to borrow from 4E. They're just also competent in melee.
This is a common misconception; bladesingers are not really tanks. Too many people thinking tanking is just standing there with high AC and holding ground, and that's not tanking. A tank is an anchor around whom the party fights. Their very presence draws fire, protecting allies. When they move, enemies reposition to meet them. It's about controlling the flow of combat. And, yes, that sounds a bit a wizard. But then every wizard would be a tank because every wizard can do that. But that's not them. A barbarian has Reckless Attacks to draw fire. A fighter (battle master) has Goading Attack to "pull" single targets. A paladin has compelled duel for a similar effect that costs a spell slot but lasts for more than one round. In theory, a bladesinger can have 22 AC without relying on magic items or spells. So what? Why is an enemy going to bother attacking such a hard-to-hit target? And their hit points are crap, so when they do take damage (and they will) it's going to hurt so much more. Do not let your AC fool you into thinking you can tank. Because an AoE will knock you on your ass. The AC bonus is there to help you survive, not hold the front lines.
That depends on what you mean by their "full potential". If you're just talking about their Bladesong, the updated bladesinger is at their peak twice per long rest in Tier 1 (levels 1-4) and 3-4 times per long rest in Tier 2 (levels 5-10). This is because the number of times you can use your Bladesong is now tied to your proficiency bonus; rather than just twice per short rest. If you're talking spell slots and what they bring to the table, then it's probably 2-3 times per long rest because of Arcane Recovery.
I've played a Bladesinger through level 15, and I can say that there are a number of items that go a long way in not using slots to buff themselves:
Cloak of Displacement : it isn't as reliable as [spell]Blur[/blur] in terms if you do get hit, but you don't use concentration either. In terms of Melee, you get to the point that the only thing that is going to hit you is a Natural 20, which with a d6 hit die, hurts a bit. This (and Blur) change the probability from 1 in 20 to 1 in 400.
Getting hit was rare for melee combatants, so only critical hits were a problem. Spell casters are more problematic, especially for an energy type not covered by Absorb Elements. That really leads to the Bladesingers most limiting resource; reactions. You rarely can do opportunity attacks because you need to hold that reaction for Shield, Absorb Elements, or Counterspell.
However, in addition to the list above, I used a number of other spells as well: Polymorph was a favorite to use on another party member when the best solution was a Giant Ape. Another one was Dragon's Breath on a familiar (an owl) or another character. Misty Step and Fireball filled out the common stuff.
Bladesingers are a very strong Wizard subclass, but not a great melee combatant.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I disagree. While they can't make use of Great Weapon Master due to Bladesong's limitations, they can certainly push out a lot of damage with haste or tenser's transformation. On defense, we have mage armor, mirror image, contingency and shield (unless transformation is on). Once you get Song of Victory things start to get a bit ridiculous.
Would a bladesinger player seriously go this far into martial specializing? Probably not, but not many characters can say they can go toe-to-toe with a martial class and still drop meteors on an army.
EDIT: Forgot to mention absorb elements, feather fall, blur and Song of Defense for defensive options. When you have a d6 hit die, every survival option counts.
That sounds like fun!
Today you are you, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is youer than you.
Not to mention Shadowblade; which both boosts damage and can be thrown, keeping the Bladesinger at a reasonable distance.
Plus, advantage in dark spaces.
Add some of the new "Summon (X) Spirit" spells, and the Bladesinger now has considerable options on the battlefield.
They're not bad at dealing damage, they're quite good, but extremely limited in their options for weapons and feats, and they have low hit points.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I honestly never got why it was a wizard subclass, at the very least, why wizard only? Why not a blade singer bard? How about a Sorcerer? Even a warlock...
Because Bards rather sing with their voice, Sorcerers are too cool for melee and Warlocks can't find a singing Patron.
On a more serious note, Bards and Warlocks have their own gish subclasses in Hexblade and College of Swords. Only the poor Sorcerers have been left out :(
I've got a ranger(4)-bladesinger(8) and I have a blast in melee. If I can build up during a significant battle, it's:
+8 to-hit with frostbrand scimitar
one attack is Green Flame Blade: 1d6+4 slashing, +1d6 cold, +2d8 fire, +2d8 radiant/necro/cold for 5th level Spirit Shroud. +1d8 slashing for colossus slayer if they're wounded.
The other attack is 1d6+4 slashing, +1d6 cold, +2d8 radiant/necro/cold for 5th level Spirit Shroud.
Bonus attack with an off-hand scimitar+1: 1d6+5, +2d8 radiant/necro/cold for 5th level Spirit Shroud.
It's a hoot! (I'm not unbeatable by any measure, but it's hilarious to get all that going. War Caster to help make sure it stays up.)
I started my Bladesinger after a first level of fighter. With two weapon fighting and the Blur and Shield spell my brother (the DM) calls the Bladesinger "broken." Yet my Bladesinger has only been struck in battle twice since 3rd level. Meanwhile my Bladesinger is a great combination of spell and sword. It is a fun combination to be so flexible in a game. As for me, I wouldn't play another because I would miss either the sword or the spell.
Way back in the ancient times of D&D, the elf class (yes, it was a class), unlike the fighter or magic caster, would be able to both fight martially and cast arcane spells quite decently; the original 5e Bladesinger from SCAG nods to this in the race restriction. I don't even think Sorcerers and Warlocks were really a thing back then.
Bladesingers are a big of an odd subclass, and if you play RAW then you need to be careful with spell selection. For example, if you're wielding a weapon in one hand then your other hand needs to be free to cast spells that don't make use of your weapon. At least, until you pick up War Caster; if your table is using feats. Which means you're not wielding a spellcasting focus like a rod or staff. You might be better off starting with a component pouch.
You also don't need that much Dexterity. Lots of people will say to stack it, anyway, because of the light armor, but in terms of AC it's not that big a deal. You're already adding your Intelligence modifier to AC, so even with a 10 that's AC 17 by, probably, 8th level. And with spells and magic items it can easily get higher. My point is that Strength is just as viable a statistic for wielding your chosen weapon. This is one of the few wizard subclasses that would really benefit from gauntlets of ogre power, especially if you have a weapon and proficiency that could benefit from it. Say, a high elf who can wield a longsword. You know how many magic longswords there are in the game?
And then you're getting into what kinds of spells should you be learning and preparing. If you're spending your Bonus Action on that first round starting your bladesong, then you've got your action to cast a spell. And while stacking defenses with spells like mirror image is tempting, you're already boosting your AC by a considerable margin. And you may have other spells, like absorb elements and shield, to further bolster your defenses. So why not go on the offensive with something like flaming sphere? Yes, it requires concentration. But you have a reinforced saving throw, don't you? It also provides illumination, scales upward in damage with higher spell slots, lets you deal damage to targets other than where you are, and can be repositioned with a Bonus Action you're not using to attack or cast spells with.
Everyone says to improve Dexterity, pick a rapier, and then pick shadow blade. But that becomes boring right quick. Dare to be different.
For fun, I made dual wielding bladesinger (it is major NPC, but made fully using player rules and with point buy system). In one hand scimitar +1 with Ruby of the war mage attached and with other Shadowblade. He can cast everything both weapons in hands (warcaster feat + Ruby cover S and M needs) and at lvl8 has ac20 with bladesong active (25 with shield spell) and does tons of damage on melee.
The elf class was my first character...thus the reason I love playing the bladesinger. Spell and sword.
The Bladesinger sacrifices the improvements to spellcasting that other schools of wizardry get in order to become a somewhat decent melee combatant.
On the other hand the wizard is a very good spellcaster anyway, so you're not giving up too much to become a bladesinger.
Four spells, absorb elements, mage armour, false life, and shadow blade added together make the class pretty competent. Use your highest spell slot for false life to boost your HP. Mage armour give you reasonable AC combined with your good dexterity, and shadow blade gives you a very strong melee weapon. Absorb elements gives you a bit of additional protection against spells that likely bypass your AC. Always play as a High Elf as it's thematic and also extra cantrips are good. For stats, using point buy, I'd go with Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10. At level 4 take Resilient (Con), and at level 8 Elven Accuracy (Dex). After that I'd maximize intelligence, then dexterity.
Mage Armor isn't needed. Blur is far superior. Being an elf your Dex is high and your wearing studded leather. That takes you close to your Mage Armor AC number to begin with. Adding Disadvantage with Blur is awesome. Add War Caster and your concentration spell saves are rock solid.
I really want to see a bladesinger in action. In my mind it's not as good as a pure caster wizard. So here is why and my questions:
Usually combats are about 3 roundsof action and 1 to 2 rounds of "clean up", rarely they are 4-5 Rounds + 1 o 2 rounds clean up.
If the Bladesinger uses the first round just for preparation and getting somewhat combat-ready he loses 20- 33% of his time during combat just for preparation. sometimes, as far as i read, he even has to recast something like blur or mirror image.
On the other side i always read something like: "Bladesong combined with Blurr, Mirror Image and shield you are a very good tank use Absorb elements if needed". That are quite a lot of resources used just to be a good tank. A fighter with a fightingstyle, shield and maybe one feat can achieve nearly the same goal for the whole adventuring day.
So here are my questions:
Example: we have a Druid, Cleric, Ranger Archer, and a Fighter in our party. When the situation becomes melee heavy we only have one dedicated for melee at the onset. The Bladesinger makes two (being engaged in the battle from the start casting Blur and Bladesong.) Bladesinger AC 21 with disadvantage plus the reaction use of sheild for AC 26. The following round I am using Scimitars 1d6+4, 1d6+5, and Lightning Lure 2d8. For an average of 20 damage approximately. The Druid is a Moon Druid with battlefield control spells until pressed into Dire Wolf shape change. The Cleric buffs everyone but isn't strong in melee. The Ranger is an automatic hit machine but poor in melee.
I've been DM for two bladesingers: one moon elf (pre-Tasha's) and one drow (post-Tasha's).
It goes back to the original class called Elf. (1975) They brandished a longsword and could cast spells
I've played a Bladesinger through level 15, and I can say that there are a number of items that go a long way in not using slots to buff themselves:
Getting hit was rare for melee combatants, so only critical hits were a problem. Spell casters are more problematic, especially for an energy type not covered by Absorb Elements. That really leads to the Bladesingers most limiting resource; reactions. You rarely can do opportunity attacks because you need to hold that reaction for Shield, Absorb Elements, or Counterspell.
However, in addition to the list above, I used a number of other spells as well: Polymorph was a favorite to use on another party member when the best solution was a Giant Ape. Another one was Dragon's Breath on a familiar (an owl) or another character. Misty Step and Fireball filled out the common stuff.