Hey Guys,

So what are the general opinions on the Bladesinging sub class? Is it better than an Eldritch Knight, or Bard, college of Swords? I like the notion of an elven Wizard sword master.  But obviously you can't throw a wizard into the middle of melee fight and expect him to survive for long... Obviously Bladesinging, Eldritch Knight, and College of Swords are very different in focus, I am aware of that, But they're all meant to fill the "Warrior Wizard" class. So my question is who occupies the "Warrior Wizard class best."? 

Thanks!

Personally, I love Bladesingers! They make an excellent support fighter for real brawler and can make full use of concentration spells while still putting out reliable damage. Bladesong does detract from the normal stamina of a Wizard; something I normally consider a major Wizarding advantage over a Sorceror, Eldritch knight, Hexblade or Bard, but the trade off is acceptable to me, mainly due to the buffs being consistently useful in my games, but your mileage may vary.

I find that a Bladesinger with Warcaster makes for a great pacesetter in combat, able to throw out a battlefield control spell like Dust Devil to block a group of minions off while still weighing in against the big bad that is rampaging, without the wizard constantly saying 'I fire another arrow' time after time or else desperately trying to hide. Bards can learn plenty of spells like this, but can't use a focus to cast many, due to most instruments being two handed and these spells requiring somatic components, my DM is a big stickler about this. The Eldritch knight meanwhile works in almost the opposite way, they excell at fighting the big bad while they happen to be slowing the enemy.

In my opinion, the Bladesinger fills a different role in a group than either CoS Bard or EK, the Bladesinger is a Wizard first and foremost, with cantrips that work best at short range. They can control a combat encounter without sacrificing their damage output as much as other wizards while still retaining the ability to throw out high level spells, at the cost of durability. Both the Bard and Fighter have different roles, the Bard is a close in support that rivals War clerics while the Fighter is an excellent frontliner that can put out despicable damage each turn with spells like Green Flame Blade.

I went in to that thinking that I would say Bladesinger, but the Eldritch knight is a better fighter, but neither of the other two are weak or less good. They fill a different niche, and in the case of the Bladesinger, it's one that has few others vying to fill. I hope my answer helps. 

wouldn't all three do the same "despicable damage" with Green Flame Blade? perhaps you are referring to the EK's tendency to be in melee range where perhaps the others may be standing off a bit, is that it?

Actually, I was thinking of action surge in conjunction with using green flame blade twice, plus at level seven you can weapon attack when you cast a cantrip. This can mean 8d8 damage in one turn, as early as level seven. Even only using it once per long rest, that is pretty ferocious. Even without action surge, 4d8 is nothing small, especially when you still have a reaction to use and extra attacks for magic resistant nasties. All three classes can dish out some serious damage, but the EK can get more attacks off, especially later on when war magic and improved war magic come into play. 

The Bard, I just noticed, can only learn Green Flame Blade at level ten, unless I forgot something. So the knight is in a league of it's own for sheer damage in this matchup.

I still think all three classes are excellent in game and story wise, but the Bladesinger is less damaging before those higher level spells, less competent in close range and squished, given that using a shield means no more bladesong. To say nothing of hit point totals. The Bladesinger and College of Swords are both good battlemages, but the Fighter can take the heavy armour, the shield, and still do more damage in close.

I do agree, EK has the sauce in combat. I will say RP and skills will go to the bard. I presume the bladesinger is gonna have some good utility.

incidentally, I had used an high half elf variant for my Bard CoS, I hadn't realized that that cantrip pick(GFB) was only available because of that race pick.

good catch!

Eldritch Knights will do a lot more damage with a Shadow Blade and action surge attack action.

I love to screw over my dm with them. They are so op, reaching just an insane ac, and with stupid crazy spells like magic weapon and all the other combat spells, including light Armor. Wizards used to be kinda balanced with baby ac and health, but with bladesinging, you have untouchable status, as well as crazy damage with all the combat spells. Combine this with a storm sorcerer multiclass and you have reached a status of can’t touch this beyond human comprehension. And Misty Step exists, so at that point it’s just bullying.

Or, you could be a p***y and still stay in the back, cowering and casting spells, using the extra ac to never get hit, instead of playing more aggressively.

I would like it if they tweaked a few things for the Bladesinger.

• Allow the Bladesinger to wear Elven chain.  This is a lore issue for me, I doubt it would even help their armor class, probably lower it, but Lore wise and the history of the class with elves it just feels right.
• Bring back their weapon of choice from 2nd edition. Let them pick one weapon and use their INT for attacks and damage with that weapon, let them use a longsword as a versatile weapon two-handed,  just no heavy weapons.  This doesn't make any sense in its current state, they can't put a second hand on their longsword, but they can use a whole other weapon in their off-hand no problem.  Last time I checked, two 3lb weapons in each hand weighs more than one 3lb weapon in two-hands.  (For video game people, you can imagine a Bladesinger attacking in a similar fashion to Geralt from the witcher.)
• Rework Song of Victory to when casting a spell, make a bonus action melee attack, that looks better for a 14th level ability.

I guess I just miss my 2nd edition Bladesinger, their current implementation is a shell of its original self.

I find them frustratingly reliable, as their versatility makes them adaptable to many situations, as opposed to other Arcane Traditions.

A Bladesinger doesn't have to be in melee combat, for example...they CAN, and their features only add to their martial skill...the AC bonus is OBSCENE, "Extra Attack" is nice, and the Intelligence damage modifier is welcome in late game...

But I find that Bladesinging makes them very effective spellcasters, too...the bonus to Constitution saving throws ensures that their "concentration" spells last for a good while...and I LOVE the flavor of "Song of Defense"...I picture reality just bending and shattering around a fatal impact, and the bladesinger just shrugging off the damage.

...and you'll need that eventually, because most people will agree, if a bladesinger gets hit by a natural twenty, it's going to HURT. "Song of Defense" is the best way to reduce that damage.

Add that you can only use "Bladesong" twice per short rest, and it's a temporary feature. That isn't so bad; just take a breather between battles to rest or meditate...or whatever an elf does. : )

To me, they offer the wizard equivalent to a monk...they are mystical, spiritual warriors who treat magic as their martial arts. 

Fun to roleplay, fun to play.

In our CoS campaign, my bladesinger consistently out tanks our party's two fighters. Primarily, because of bladesong and the shield spell. Her AC is 20-25 for most battles. And the endure elements spell has her shrugging off a lot of big spell damage. While their ACs are 16 or 18, their 15-20 more HP don't really matter. As they are getting hit multiple times a round. As a result, they often fall unconscious in battle; but she does not. Plus she has the added bonus of having full access to spells. I won't get into which fighter/mage class is better, but I would highly recommend playing a bladesinger.

* Don't forget to put a descent score into your CON. Maybe pick the resilient feat or the toughness feat at level 8? This might help you survive those inevitable critical hits.

I love Bladesinging. I use the mobile feat for extra speed and the immunity to AoO after attacking,  then lots of mobility/ teleporting spells,  Blink, Misty Step, Mirror Image, Blur, Haste, etc... for damage I use green flame blade and Steel Wind Strike for AOE of course...that dude is a beast. Very fun to play and roleplay him as this extremely fast arcane warrior.

Okay, here is my opinion.

You want bullshit? Lets go bullshit. Take point buy, high elf wizard. 18 dex, 19 int, put two so you don't have a negative mod, and a modifier in CON. At level 2, you have 20 AC, and can stab people. Or cast spells. Lets take it up a notch. Get mage armour, now its 23. Shield. Now its 28. At level 5, juice yourself up with that sweet sweet haste, and activate bladesong. 30 AC, 80 ft. of movement, and two attacks. Or a spell and attack. Have a cleric slap a shield of faith on you, and now anything needs to roll a nat 20 to hit on that level. 

So you feel quite invulnerable with all that BS AC, and quite comfy with that charm immunity and race features of yours, do you not? Let me show you that you are not.

You do not have uncanny dodge, making any spell with saves a death sentence to your +1 or +2, d6 hit points, and those you need. At 5th level, you have max of 40 HP. IF you rolled all of them 6, which you didnt. a 6th level spellcaster can nail you with a toll of the dead, for initial 2d8 necrotic, blast you with 3rd level thunderwave, or wipe you off the face of the earth with fireball. All of those spells need saves, and with exception of toll of the dead, do half damage on success. 8d6, on average, is 24. More than half your health. 12 if you made the save, and at most, wipes the floor with you with 48 max damage, 24, if you save. Toll the dead requires a WIS save, which is at most +4, or +5 at this level, using this build, and a caster focused on casting can, and WILL wipe the floor with you. Also, No, you can't fight a tarrasque with this build, as the two minutes will only last for so long, and it will eat your ass alive.

But still, 30 AC at level 5 is a bit bullshit.

Bladesingers are Wizards that can hopefully survive in melee for a few turns, but are Wizards none the less. You have the D6 health still, and the full casting and spell list utility of the Wizard class. Bladesong just gives you more AC and concentration bonuses which any wizard loves, it doesn't require you to be in melee.

Also on the  topic of Martial Bard vs Eldritch Knight vs Bladesinger I think it breaks down as thus;

Martial bards have some nice general spellcasting utility and have some nice general skill monkey bonuses, they end up being the best at using bows since they have extra attack and can grab Swift Quiver at level 10 to double their amount of attacks, after that point multiclassing is very reasonable to just make your archery better.

Eldritch Knight is the melee gish of the three, GFB or BB plus the ability to attack after casting a cantrip rewards you for being in melee and just using your spell slots to supplement your tanking (mostly shield).

Bladesinger is just a wizard who doesn't die instantly from people attacking them, simple as that.

You can use absorb elements for that fireball :) 

Quote from BoBoGaMeS10P1 >>

Okay, here is my opinion.

You want bullshit? Lets go bullshit. Take point buy, high elf wizard. 18 dex, 19 int, put two so you don't have a negative mod, and a modifier in CON. At level 2, you have 20 AC, and can stab people. Or cast spells. Lets take it up a notch. Get mage armour, now its 23. Shield. Now its 28. At level 5, juice yourself up with that sweet sweet haste, and activate bladesong. 30 AC, 80 ft. of movement, and two attacks. Or a spell and attack. Have a cleric slap a shield of faith on you, and now anything needs to roll a nat 20 to hit on that level. 

So you feel quite invulnerable with all that BS AC, and quite comfy with that charm immunity and race features of yours, do you not? Let me show you that you are not.

You do not have uncanny dodge, making any spell with saves a death sentence to your +1 or +2, d6 hit points, and those you need. At 5th level, you have max of 40 HP. IF you rolled all of them 6, which you didnt. a 6th level spellcaster can nail you with a toll of the dead, for initial 2d8 necrotic, blast you with 3rd level thunderwave, or wipe you off the face of the earth with fireball. All of those spells need saves, and with exception of toll of the dead, do half damage on success. 8d6, on average, is 24. More than half your health. 12 if you made the save, and at most, wipes the floor with you with 48 max damage, 24, if you save. Toll the dead requires a WIS save, which is at most +4, or +5 at this level, using this build, and a caster focused on casting can, and WILL wipe the floor with you. Also, No, you can't fight a tarrasque with this build, as the two minutes will only last for so long, and it will eat your ass alive.

But still, 30 AC at level 5 is a bit bullshit.

 
Point buy highest is 17 Dex and 16 Int after racial modifiers (how are you getting 19 and 18?). So base armour is 13, which becomes 16 with bladesong and up to 21 with shield spell. 

Elves are not immune to charms, the only have advantage on the saving throw against it. They're immune to magical sleep effects.

At level 4 you can use an ASI to increase either Dex or Int by two or both by 1. It doesn't matter which for your AC: so either way it will increase your armour by 1 with bladesong. So now your AC is 17, or 22 with Shield spell 

You still have a great AC. The downfall of Bladesingers is the "save" stuff and auto damage. However, there are magic items, feats and spells that can help with that. Most "save" things are spells - which can be countered with Counterspell. Later on the level 14 ability to use spell slots to reduce damage will help as well. They have a lot of defensive options. 

*becomes 24 with shield spell, with mage armour. Honestly, I read that one could put however much points into whatever with point buy, placing 9 into int, getting a total of 20, and 8 into dex, maxing out at total of 20. (considering you still have the base 5×10 and 1x8 base score to add the 22 points to.

I realise that elves dont have immunity, but advantage, letting you forget about wis for a while.

counterspell can be countedspelled on the same turn, and by the same caster whose spell was attempted to be counterspelled.

Bladesingers are powerful, but there are ways to soften them up before fights.

Based on the PHB, no. Using Point Buy the max you can go to is 15 before racials.

Variant: Customizing Ability Scores

At your Dungeon Master’s option, you can use this variant for determining your ability scores. The method described here allows you to build a character with a set of ability scores you choose individually.

You have 27 points to spend on your ability scores. The cost of each score is shown on the Ability Score Point Cost table. For example, a score of 14 costs 7 points. Using this method, 15 is the highest ability score you can end up with, before applying racial increases. You can’t have a score lower than 8.

This method of determining ability scores enables you to create a set of three high numbers and three low ones (15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8), a set of numbers that are above average and nearly equal (13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12), or any set of numbers between those extremes.

Ability Score Point Cost

Must have read something wrong or skimmed over it. Thanks, I am still relatively new to everything. Doesn't make this point buy redundant then? I'm gonna look into it because it seems like standard array just makes for better scores. Thanks again.

Bladesingers can be pretty potent on their own or as a multiclass option for eldritch knights and arcane tricksters.  Haste, shield and bladesong combined make for an incredibly hard to hit character.  Now you can ready your main action to booming blade + sneak attack during another player's turn or on an enemy's turn, then use your hasted action to make your main attack.

Mix in evasion from rogue and you'll dance through fireball and uncanny dodge to increase survivability.  Then, you have a rogue's cunning action to disengage after hitting with a booming blade and you'll have bonus action spells to cast and control for added damage that can increase the chances of an enemy running after you.

With eldritch knight you'll get more spell slots from Wizard that can be used to mitigate damage from spells like absorb elements that can return some of the absorbed damage.  Eldritch strike at level 10 fighter can now be used with some very potent spells if you've got 5 levels in wizard.  Also, a fighting style like dueling increases the damage output of bladesingers just a little bit more as well. 

I like how the bladesinger takes the wizard chassis and turns it into a dodge tank.

Barring the use of magic items, bladesingers have the highest reliable AC in the game at 30 (mage armor+dex+int+haste+shield). Warforged eldritch knights cap out at 29. (plate+shield+defense+integrated+haste+shield).

I had one that used contingency to trigger mirror image if she was attacked (had to explain the necessity of an attack roll). She face-tanked a kraken with blur while the rest of the party evacuated the city. Sucker never got a hit in. DM raged when we leveled and I gained simulacrum.