6th Lyran, You misread my example. I used a real game, "oh damn, I'm screwed". If you memorize Sending, you plan on casting it, and all I had was one 4th level spell. Which means I did not memorize ANY other 4th level spells. Yeah, I upcasted, but it was a major disadvantage against someone casting that polymorphed an ally into a Giant Crab.
In the Fighter 20 vs Wizard 20 thread we agreed that a fair fight between two characters always assumes that they get to choose all their options as they know they're going to fight the other character. This is as fair as making sure that neither class gets surprise or any abilities activated before the combat that they wouldn't normally automatically have activated. (For example, they can't come into combat with Tenser's Transformation on them, but the Divination Wizard would have their portents.)
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6th Lyran, You misread my example. I used a real game, "oh damn, I'm screwed". If you memorize Sending, you plan on casting it, and all I had was one 4th level spell. Which means I did not memorize ANY other 4th level spells. Yeah, I upcasted, but it was a major disadvantage against someone casting that polymorphed an ally into a Giant Crab.
First of all, unless there's been an errata I missed, Sending is a 3rd level spell, not a 4th level spell. Second of all, a poor tactical decision on the part of a player does not constitute a weakness on the part of the class.
A Wizard has 5 ASI so if they started with the standard array that's 15 Int, 14 Con, 12 Dex, (the other three are variables.) Assuming a high elf and taking the 5 ASI that's, 20 Int, 20 Con, 14 Dex. That's not that great. Assuming Mage Armor and depending on if they prioritize Dex over Con their AC 15-18, but with shield that's 20-23, which is not bad. And for HP it's either 4+5 or 4+2 depending on Con, and x20=182HP or 122HP. If it's the latter then it wouldn't take much to put it into PWK range.
A Warlock also has 5 ASI so if they started with the standard array that's 15 Cha, 14 Con, 12 Dex, (the other three are variables.) Assuming a half elf and taking the 5 ASI that's, 20 Cha, 20 Con, 15 Dex. So almost the same, but instead of that 15 Dex let's take the Moderately Armored feat which brings it down to 14 Dex but helps with the next step. Warlock now has the edge for AC, cause with 14 DE and half plate with shield their AC 19, which means Wizard only has a 60% chance of hitting. And for HP average of 5+5 from Con x20=203HP, not much better than the Wizard max but still better.
As for subclasses some are obviously better than others. Abjuration has a huge advantage against spell casters, so if the Wizard is an Abjurer the chance of a Warlock victory is extremely low. Divination has portents which be clutch for initiative, passing a saving throw, or forcing a failed save. Enchanter is an interesting option cause Hypnotic Gaze could be used as a semi effective way of avoiding Counterspell.
Warlock doesn't have as many subclasses and so really only one or two of them are especially useful in this scenario. Fiend is your best bet, Dark One's Own Luck can be clutch, although not as useful as a Portent, but there's also Hurl Through Hell, this will deal on average 55 points of damage (DC 27 concentration check, unless they're an Abjurer but that's already a lot cause) and it allows to get a free extra spell in via readied action. And Celestial gives an extra 25 temp HP I guess.
So here's how a Warlock could win. You need to be Fiend, you need to win initiative but you do have Dark One's Own Luck to help with that, and you need to start between 35 and 120 feet away.
Assuming you've won initiative, step 1 is to move so you're as close to the Wizard as you can be while still being out of Counterspell's 60 foot range, so 65 feet, and then step two. Cast Hex and Eldritch Blast. They'll probably cast shield bringing their AC up to 20-23, but you've got four attacks at +11 to hit so you'll be fine cause at least will hit but hopefully two. Each hit will deal 1d10 + 1d6 +5 (average of 14 damage) and then if at least one EB hits it brings up to step three. Hurl Through Hell. 10d10 psychic damage, average of 55, will easily bring down the Dex Wizard into PWK range, and the Con Wizard would have less AC so they would be more likely to take at least two EBs, which combined with HTH would and bring it into PWK range. And speaking of, it's time for step four. Power Word Kill, you'll want to move within 60 feet so you can actually cast the spell, and then you'll ready a PWK with the condition of when the Wizard Appears, and with the rules of readied spells you cast it at the action part not the reaction part, thus you won't be able to be counterspelled cause the Wizard will be in hell for this portion. And so your turn ends, Wizard appears and more than likely has less than 100HP, and so that brings the battle to an end.
So here's how a Warlock could win. You need to be Fiend, you need to win initiative but you do have Dark One's Own Luck to help with that, and you need to start between 35 and 120 feet away.
Assuming you've won initiative, step 1 is to move so you're as close to the Wizard as you can be while still being out of Counterspell's 60 foot range, so 65 feet, and then step two. Cast Hex and Eldritch Blast. They'll probably cast shield bringing their AC up to 20-23, but you've got four attacks at +11 to hit so you'll be fine cause at least will hit but hopefully two. Each hit will deal 1d10 + 1d6 +5 (average of 14 damage) and then if at least one EB hits it brings up to step three. Hurl Through Hell. 10d10 psychic damage, average of 55, will easily bring down the Dex Wizard into PWK range, and the Con Wizard would have less AC so they would be more likely to take at least two EBs, which combined with HTH would and bring it into PWK range. And speaking of, it's time for step four. Power Word Kill, you'll want to move within 60 feet so you can actually cast the spell, and then you'll ready a PWK with the condition of when the Wizard Appears, and with the rules of readied spells you cast it at the action part not the reaction part, thus you won't be able to be counterspelled cause the Wizard will be in hell for this portion. And so your turn ends, Wizard appears and more than likely has less than 100HP, and so that brings the battle to an end.
Setting aside that this is almost the exact strategy I detailed in post #16 (I assumed that you couldn't get out of counterspell range), you don't necessarily need to win initiative (it depends what they cast), but you may have a point about readying a spell.
When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs.
Power word kill is already cast while the wizard is in hell, you just release its energy as your reaction when the wizard returns.
If the power word is already cast while the wizard is in hell, doesn't that mean it's effect is null since there is no viable visible target for it? (since, like you said, wizard is in hell)
A Wizard has 5 ASI so if they started with the standard array that's 15 Int, 14 Con, 12 Dex, (the other three are variables.) Assuming a high elf and taking the 5 ASI that's, 20 Int, 20 Con, 14 Dex. That's not that great. Assuming Mage Armor and depending on if they prioritize Dex over Con their AC 15-18, but with shield that's 20-23, which is not bad. And for HP it's either 4+5 or 4+2 depending on Con, and x20=182HP or 122HP. If it's the latter then it wouldn't take much to put it into PWK range.
A Warlock also has 5 ASI so if they started with the standard array that's 15 Cha, 14 Con, 12 Dex, (the other three are variables.) Assuming a half elf and taking the 5 ASI that's, 20 Cha, 20 Con, 15 Dex. So almost the same, but instead of that 15 Dex let's take the Moderately Armored feat which brings it down to 14 Dex but helps with the next step. Warlock now has the edge for AC, cause with 14 DE and half plate with shield their AC 19, which means Wizard only has a 60% chance of hitting. And for HP average of 5+5 from Con x20=203HP, not much better than the Wizard max but still better.
The wizard would probably not bother relying on spells that require attack rolls though, and instead focus on things that require saving throws. A 14 Dex puts the warlock in a bad place if the wizard decides to start spamming Disintegrate.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The wizard would probably not bother relying on spells that require attack rolls though, and instead focus on things that require saving throws. A 14 Dex puts the warlock in a bad place if the wizard decides to start spamming Disintegrate.
Demo_N and I outlined a strategy for warlock that would beat this strategy. Check out post #16 and post #25. What full winning strategy are you suggesting for the wizard?
You guys really think the Warlock would lose that hard? Dang, that's not good! I made this thread because I learned that a level 20 Wizard is confirmed to destroy a Fighter 90% of the time, and they're also straight up supereffective to Clerics as well (like Charizard is to Blastoise). Is there any single class that can take on the fear-inspiring Wizard 1-on-1?
The wizard would probably not bother relying on spells that require attack rolls though, and instead focus on things that require saving throws. A 14 Dex puts the warlock in a bad place if the wizard decides to start spamming Disintegrate.
Demo_N and I outlined a strategy for warlock that would beat this strategy. Check out post #16 and post #25. What full winning strategy are you suggesting for the wizard?
Cast Globe of Invulnerability as a 9th level spell, or Immunity, or some other high level protection spell. Blast the warlock with spells until it's a greasy stain. The thing about the wizard in this scenario is that they don't need a specific strategy to win because they have enough options that they can tailor their approach on the fly to target the warlock's weak points and enough spell slots to brute-force a win by hammering the warlock's defenses until they crack.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The wizard would probably not bother relying on spells that require attack rolls though, and instead focus on things that require saving throws. A 14 Dex puts the warlock in a bad place if the wizard decides to start spamming Disintegrate.
Demo_N and I outlined a strategy for warlock that would beat this strategy. Check out post #16 and post #25. What full winning strategy are you suggesting for the wizard?
Cast Globe of Invulnerability as a 9th level spell, or Immunity, or some other high level protection spell. Blast the warlock with spells until it's a greasy stain. The thing about the wizard in this scenario is that they don't need a specific strategy to win because they have enough options that they can tailor their approach on the fly to target the warlock's weak points and enough spell slots to brute-force a win by hammering the warlock's defenses until they crack.
That strategy has already been beaten see post #16. Globe of invulnerability can't protect you from physical attacks, Hurl Through Hell, or power word kill. Invulnerability can't protect you from power word stun. Do you have another strategy?
The wizard would probably not bother relying on spells that require attack rolls though, and instead focus on things that require saving throws. A 14 Dex puts the warlock in a bad place if the wizard decides to start spamming Disintegrate.
Demo_N and I outlined a strategy for warlock that would beat this strategy. Check out post #16 and post #25. What full winning strategy are you suggesting for the wizard?
Cast Globe of Invulnerability as a 9th level spell, or Immunity, or some other high level protection spell. Blast the warlock with spells until it's a greasy stain. The thing about the wizard in this scenario is that they don't need a specific strategy to win because they have enough options that they can tailor their approach on the fly to target the warlock's weak points and enough spell slots to brute-force a win by hammering the warlock's defenses until they crack.
That strategy has already been beaten see post #16. Globe of invulnerability can't protect you from physical attacks, Hurl Through Hell, or power word kill. Invulnerability can't protect you from power word stun. Do you have another strategy?
Feeble mind. Game over. Warlock defeated in 6 seconds. See post #31
The wizard would probably not bother relying on spells that require attack rolls though, and instead focus on things that require saving throws. A 14 Dex puts the warlock in a bad place if the wizard decides to start spamming Disintegrate.
Demo_N and I outlined a strategy for warlock that would beat this strategy. Check out post #16 and post #25. What full winning strategy are you suggesting for the wizard?
Cast Globe of Invulnerability as a 9th level spell, or Immunity, or some other high level protection spell. Blast the warlock with spells until it's a greasy stain. The thing about the wizard in this scenario is that they don't need a specific strategy to win because they have enough options that they can tailor their approach on the fly to target the warlock's weak points and enough spell slots to brute-force a win by hammering the warlock's defenses until they crack.
That strategy has already been beaten see post #16. Globe of invulnerability can't protect you from physical attacks, Hurl Through Hell, or power word kill. Invulnerability can't protect you from power word stun. Do you have another strategy?
Feeble mind. Game over. Warlock defeated in 6 seconds. See post #31
Counterspell their first action with whatever level spell slot necessary to beat them, (probably 7th) then Feeblemind them, and either force them to fail as a Diviner or Chronurgist, and if they succeed anyway, repeat this until it works.
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The wizard would probably not bother relying on spells that require attack rolls though, and instead focus on things that require saving throws. A 14 Dex puts the warlock in a bad place if the wizard decides to start spamming Disintegrate.
Demo_N and I outlined a strategy for warlock that would beat this strategy. Check out post #16 and post #25. What full winning strategy are you suggesting for the wizard?
Cast Globe of Invulnerability as a 9th level spell, or Immunity, or some other high level protection spell. Blast the warlock with spells until it's a greasy stain. The thing about the wizard in this scenario is that they don't need a specific strategy to win because they have enough options that they can tailor their approach on the fly to target the warlock's weak points and enough spell slots to brute-force a win by hammering the warlock's defenses until they crack.
That strategy has already been beaten see post #16. Globe of invulnerability can't protect you from physical attacks, Hurl Through Hell, or power word kill. Invulnerability can't protect you from power word stun. Do you have another strategy?
Feeble mind. Game over. Warlock defeated in 6 seconds. See post #31
Counterspell their first action with whatever level spell slot necessary to beat them, (probably 7th) then Feeblemind them, and either force them to fail as a Diviner or Chronurgist, and if they succeed anyway, repeat this until it works.
Strong strategy. As near as I can tell, it always beats the warlock when the wizard goes first. With 3 portent dice the odds of having one below 9 is pretty good. That's low enough that dark one's own luck can't save you.
The warlock should probably just use dark one's own luck to win initiative. I may need to do some calculations on the probabilities of the diviner getting at least one high portent for initiative and at least one low portent for the saving throw vs the warlock rolling 1d20+1d10 for initiative.
"Counterspell their first action" isn't good enough for if the wizard loses initiative. The strategy we've outlined starts with either the warlock going out of counterspell range to cast EB or closing to melee range to attack. And then finished up by winning the fight without any counterable spells.
Also, sure they can counterspell your counterspell, unless it's cast at 7th level.
Not true. Subtle spells can't be countered neither can the release of a readied spell. The warlock strategy readies a power word kill while the wizard is being hurled through hell and releases that spell's energies when the wizard returns. No counterspell possible.
Okay, sure, I said "All spells can be counterable", which is true for this thread. Warlocks won't have subtle spell if they're level 20 Warlocks all the way.
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Okay, sure, I said "All spells can be counterable", which is true for this thread. Warlocks won't have subtle spell if they're level 20 Warlocks all the way.
Yes, that was just an example. The warlock readying a power word kill while the wizard is being hurled through hell is what's at issue. The wizard can't counter the fight-ending spell they can't see being cast.
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6th Lyran, You misread my example. I used a real game, "oh damn, I'm screwed". If you memorize Sending, you plan on casting it, and all I had was one 4th level spell. Which means I did not memorize ANY other 4th level spells. Yeah, I upcasted, but it was a major disadvantage against someone casting that polymorphed an ally into a Giant Crab.
In the Fighter 20 vs Wizard 20 thread we agreed that a fair fight between two characters always assumes that they get to choose all their options as they know they're going to fight the other character. This is as fair as making sure that neither class gets surprise or any abilities activated before the combat that they wouldn't normally automatically have activated. (For example, they can't come into combat with Tenser's Transformation on them, but the Divination Wizard would have their portents.)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
First of all, unless there's been an errata I missed, Sending is a 3rd level spell, not a 4th level spell. Second of all, a poor tactical decision on the part of a player does not constitute a weakness on the part of the class.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
A Wizard has 5 ASI so if they started with the standard array that's 15 Int, 14 Con, 12 Dex, (the other three are variables.) Assuming a high elf and taking the 5 ASI that's, 20 Int, 20 Con, 14 Dex. That's not that great. Assuming Mage Armor and depending on if they prioritize Dex over Con their AC 15-18, but with shield that's 20-23, which is not bad. And for HP it's either 4+5 or 4+2 depending on Con, and x20=182HP or 122HP. If it's the latter then it wouldn't take much to put it into PWK range.
A Warlock also has 5 ASI so if they started with the standard array that's 15 Cha, 14 Con, 12 Dex, (the other three are variables.) Assuming a half elf and taking the 5 ASI that's, 20 Cha, 20 Con, 15 Dex. So almost the same, but instead of that 15 Dex let's take the Moderately Armored feat which brings it down to 14 Dex but helps with the next step. Warlock now has the edge for AC, cause with 14 DE and half plate with shield their AC 19, which means Wizard only has a 60% chance of hitting. And for HP average of 5+5 from Con x20=203HP, not much better than the Wizard max but still better.
As for subclasses some are obviously better than others. Abjuration has a huge advantage against spell casters, so if the Wizard is an Abjurer the chance of a Warlock victory is extremely low. Divination has portents which be clutch for initiative, passing a saving throw, or forcing a failed save. Enchanter is an interesting option cause Hypnotic Gaze could be used as a semi effective way of avoiding Counterspell.
Warlock doesn't have as many subclasses and so really only one or two of them are especially useful in this scenario. Fiend is your best bet, Dark One's Own Luck can be clutch, although not as useful as a Portent, but there's also Hurl Through Hell, this will deal on average 55 points of damage (DC 27 concentration check, unless they're an Abjurer but that's already a lot cause) and it allows to get a free extra spell in via readied action. And Celestial gives an extra 25 temp HP I guess.
So here's how a Warlock could win. You need to be Fiend, you need to win initiative but you do have Dark One's Own Luck to help with that, and you need to start between 35 and 120 feet away.
Assuming you've won initiative, step 1 is to move so you're as close to the Wizard as you can be while still being out of Counterspell's 60 foot range, so 65 feet, and then step two. Cast Hex and Eldritch Blast. They'll probably cast shield bringing their AC up to 20-23, but you've got four attacks at +11 to hit so you'll be fine cause at least will hit but hopefully two. Each hit will deal 1d10 + 1d6 +5 (average of 14 damage) and then if at least one EB hits it brings up to step three. Hurl Through Hell. 10d10 psychic damage, average of 55, will easily bring down the Dex Wizard into PWK range, and the Con Wizard would have less AC so they would be more likely to take at least two EBs, which combined with HTH would and bring it into PWK range. And speaking of, it's time for step four. Power Word Kill, you'll want to move within 60 feet so you can actually cast the spell, and then you'll ready a PWK with the condition of when the Wizard Appears, and with the rules of readied spells you cast it at the action part not the reaction part, thus you won't be able to be counterspelled cause the Wizard will be in hell for this portion. And so your turn ends, Wizard appears and more than likely has less than 100HP, and so that brings the battle to an end.
Setting aside that this is almost the exact strategy I detailed in post #16 (I assumed that you couldn't get out of counterspell range), you don't necessarily need to win initiative (it depends what they cast), but you may have a point about readying a spell.
Power word kill is already cast while the wizard is in hell, you just release its energy as your reaction when the wizard returns.
If the power word is already cast while the wizard is in hell, doesn't that mean it's effect is null since there is no viable visible target for it? (since, like you said, wizard is in hell)NVM Sage advice cleared that up.
The wizard would probably not bother relying on spells that require attack rolls though, and instead focus on things that require saving throws. A 14 Dex puts the warlock in a bad place if the wizard decides to start spamming Disintegrate.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Demo_N and I outlined a strategy for warlock that would beat this strategy. Check out post #16 and post #25. What full winning strategy are you suggesting for the wizard?
Paladin. Druid.
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I see no variation in any strategy for wizards detailed here...
Eldritch blast needs to hit. 2 ways off the top of my head to stop EB. 1 counterspell. 2. Prismatic wall.
people keep talking about range and etc etc.
wizard. Meteor swarm
power word kill. Not the only spell needed. Power word stun can be effective.
And let me just simplify the warlock. Has 0 chance. ZERO vs a divination wizard.
i give you. Feeble mind and portent. Congratulations. Feeble mind and portent. Your int and charisma is 1. You can’t cast spells. You are neutered.
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Cast Globe of Invulnerability as a 9th level spell, or Immunity, or some other high level protection spell. Blast the warlock with spells until it's a greasy stain. The thing about the wizard in this scenario is that they don't need a specific strategy to win because they have enough options that they can tailor their approach on the fly to target the warlock's weak points and enough spell slots to brute-force a win by hammering the warlock's defenses until they crack.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That strategy has already been beaten see post #16. Globe of invulnerability can't protect you from physical attacks, Hurl Through Hell, or power word kill. Invulnerability can't protect you from power word stun. Do you have another strategy?
Feeble mind. Game over. Warlock defeated in 6 seconds. See post #31
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Counterspell their first action with whatever level spell slot necessary to beat them, (probably 7th) then Feeblemind them, and either force them to fail as a Diviner or Chronurgist, and if they succeed anyway, repeat this until it works.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Strong strategy. As near as I can tell, it always beats the warlock when the wizard goes first. With 3 portent dice the odds of having one below 9 is pretty good. That's low enough that dark one's own luck can't save you.
The warlock should probably just use dark one's own luck to win initiative. I may need to do some calculations on the probabilities of the diviner getting at least one high portent for initiative and at least one low portent for the saving throw vs the warlock rolling 1d20+1d10 for initiative.
"Counterspell their first action" isn't good enough for if the wizard loses initiative. The strategy we've outlined starts with either the warlock going out of counterspell range to cast EB or closing to melee range to attack. And then finished up by winning the fight without any counterable spells.
Any spell can be counterable.
Also, sure they can counterspell your counterspell, unless it's cast at 7th level.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Not true. Subtle spells can't be countered neither can the release of a readied spell. The warlock strategy readies a power word kill while the wizard is being hurled through hell and releases that spell's energies when the wizard returns. No counterspell possible.
Okay, sure, I said "All spells can be counterable", which is true for this thread. Warlocks won't have subtle spell if they're level 20 Warlocks all the way.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yes, that was just an example. The warlock readying a power word kill while the wizard is being hurled through hell is what's at issue. The wizard can't counter the fight-ending spell they can't see being cast.