I don't know what range is fair. I would say that the arena should be brightly lit to be fair to all races.
The problem that if they're too far away, that benefits an Eldritch Spammer warlock way more than a wizard (especially with spell sniper and other range increasing abilities).
I'd say 60 feet is the fairest to both of them, because that's the range of Counterspell. A Hexblade will probably want to engage in melee, like a Bladesinger would, and an Eldritch Spammer would want to move far away. Wizards would want to be at the 30/60 foot range, as most of their spells have a range similar to that, but that seems to be favoring the Wizard more.
I'd say 60 feet is the fairest distance. It doesn't favor the Warlock or Wizard too much.
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Wow, This thread has turned epic. and as normally a caster player I actually like some of the Warlocks tactics, eg power word stun, hurl through hell.
But as I mentioned in other forums, The most a Warlock could do is temporarily annoy the wizard until the their soul returns to their clone and that's where they would plan the Warlock's demise.
You'd be a pretty silly wizard if you didn't have back up plans :)
Simply - just cast Invisibility while “Hurled through Hell”. The PWK doesn’t trigger, Warlock just lost their level 9 spell and Globe of Invulnerability is now unbreachable. Use Magic Missile 250+ times until the Warlock is a petty stain on the sidewalk because it’s your Spell Mastery choice. And this is only if you *lose* initiative.
Manacles and gags? You’re not getting all of that off in one round, you’re *maybe* getting one or the other. Manacles? Power Word Stun back at you and a free round to remove the manacles. Gag? Counterspell still works, and you can use your free hands to interact and remove them.
There is literally no tool the Warlock has to 1v1 a Wizard. The Warlock is Wizard-lite with the sole advantage of continuous battles over a period of multiple short rests - he will never overcome the strengths of a Wizard in strict PVP.
And we haven’t even considered the advantages gained by the choice of School for the Wizard.
Interesting notion, unlike Banishment, nothing in the description of Hurl Through Hell says that the target is incapacitated or otherwise loses the ability to perform actions on their turn.
Simply - just cast Invisibility while “Hurled through Hell”. The PWK doesn’t trigger, Warlock just lost their level 9 spell and Globe of Invulnerability is now unbreachable. Use Magic Missile 250+ times until the Warlock is a petty stain on the sidewalk because it’s your Spell Mastery choice. And this is only if you *lose* initiative.
Interesting tactic that completely disregards the concept of concentration. The wizard can concentrate on invulnerability, globe of invulnerability, or invisibility, but not a combination of them. Also unless the wizard takes no damage from hurl through hell, which is only true for invulnerability, the wizard's looking at a DC 27 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration. Maybe a different tactic while being hurled through hell would work, but not casting invisibility. Even if for some reason the wizard did come back invisible, warlocks have access to witch sight to see the wizard anyway.
Manacles and gags? You’re not getting all of that off in one round, you’re *maybe* getting one or the other. Manacles? Power Word Stun back at you and a free round to remove the manacles. Gag? Counterspell still works, and you can use your free hands to interact and remove them.
Definitely not in one round, but power word stun lasts until the target succeeds on a saving throw. How many rounds does the warlock get? Also a warlock with 16 Con has enough hp that power word stun wouldn't work.
There is literally no tool the Warlock has to 1v1 a Wizard. The Warlock is Wizard-lite with the sole advantage of continuous battles over a period of multiple short rests - he will never overcome the strengths of a Wizard in strict PVP.
And we haven’t even considered the advantages gained by the choice of School for the Wizard.
This sentiment is the reason why I have been such a strong advocate for the warlock. They're definitely the underdog, but the notion that they're "Wizard-lite" is ridiculous. Half of this thread is now about the tools that warlocks have to 1v1 wizards. Can most warlocks 1v1 most wizards? Definitely not. Can a specialized warlock 1v1 most wizards? Yes, I think that's been demonstrated in this thread. Can a specialized warlock 1v1 a specialized wizard? This one depends on which wins initiative. I think that's also been demonstrated in this thread.
A Chronurgist could just make the Warlock lose initiative.
I don't consider Wildemount to be canon, just fancy homebrew (but that's a separate issue). Regardless, I don't think a chronurgist can do that. There is no definition of "minimum needed to succeed" for an initiative roll so choosing that roll to be successful or not doesn't even make sense in this context.
If I'm parsing Jeremy Crawford correctly, truesight can see through the darkness created by shadow of moil, but not the "flame-like" shadows that actual cause the heavy obscurement.
EB won't cut through a lot the Wizard spells. Invulnerability or a a Globe of Invulnerability will conquer the EB easily. If you go for far range, a wizard will cast one of those.
The only way a Warlock wins is if the Wizard did not have the time to pick his spells, or if the Warlock gets VERY lucky.
Simply - just cast Invisibility while “Hurled through Hell”. The PWK doesn’t trigger, Warlock just lost their level 9 spell and Globe of Invulnerability is now unbreachable. Use Magic Missile 250+ times until the Warlock is a petty stain on the sidewalk because it’s your Spell Mastery choice. And this is only if you *lose* initiative.
Interesting tactic that completely disregards the concept of concentration. The wizard can concentrate on invulnerability, globe of invulnerability, or invisibility, but not a combination of them. Also unless the wizard takes no damage from hurl through hell, which is only true for invulnerability, the wizard's looking at a DC 27 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration. Maybe a different tactic while being hurled through hell would work, but not casting invisibility. Even if for some reason the wizard did come back invisible, warlocks have access to witch sight to see the wizard anyway.
Manacles and gags? You’re not getting all of that off in one round, you’re *maybe* getting one or the other. Manacles? Power Word Stun back at you and a free round to remove the manacles. Gag? Counterspell still works, and you can use your free hands to interact and remove them.
Definitely not in one round, but power word stun lasts until the target succeeds on a saving throw. How many rounds does the warlock get? Also a warlock with 16 Con has enough hp that power word stun wouldn't work.
There is literally no tool the Warlock has to 1v1 a Wizard. The Warlock is Wizard-lite with the sole advantage of continuous battles over a period of multiple short rests - he will never overcome the strengths of a Wizard in strict PVP.
And we haven’t even considered the advantages gained by the choice of School for the Wizard.
This sentiment is the reason why I have been such a strong advocate for the warlock. They're definitely the underdog, but the notion that they're "Wizard-lite" is ridiculous. Half of this thread is now about the tools that warlocks have to 1v1 wizards. Can most warlocks 1v1 most wizards? Definitely not. Can a specialized warlock 1v1 most wizards? Yes, I think that's been demonstrated in this thread. Can a specialized warlock 1v1 a specialized wizard? This one depends on which wins initiative. I think that's also been demonstrated in this thread.
A divination wizard. Has no possible way of losing. Regardless of initiative.
thats a win for wizard period. No matter what. No matter any warlock. The same cannot be said for warlock. You basically need to have a specialized warlock for a specific not specialized for warlocks wizard, for the warlock.
EB won't cut through a lot the Wizard spells. Invulnerability or a a Globe of Invulnerability will conquer the EB easily. If you go for far range, a wizard will cast one of those.
The only way a Warlock wins is if the Wizard did not have the time to pick his spells, or if the Warlock gets VERY lucky.
Completely accurate. you’d have to immediately destroy the wizards spellbook. Good luck.
the warlock has no way of battling vs Feeblemind hitting. None. And the divination wizard can guarantee it. And the warlock can’t take down the wizard fast enough to stop this.
A divination wizard. Has no possible way of losing. Regardless of initiative.
thats a win for wizard period. No matter what. No matter any warlock. The same cannot be said for warlock. You basically need to have a specialized warlock for a specific not specialized for warlocks wizard, for the warlock.
i don’t see where the debate continues here.
This tells me that you are either highly biased or you didn't read the thread. The debate continues because people, like yourself, keep posting that the wizard wins without any evidence or argument. The pro-warlock side of this debate has presented a well-detailed strategy that does win when the warlock wins initiative. Again, yes that is a specialized warlock, but it's true for any wizard including a specialized divination wizard. The pro-wizard side of this debate, with a few respectable exceptions, has yet to present a similarly detailed strategy. The ones that have been presented, while effective, still lose when they lose initiative. As near as I can tell, a warlock with Dark One's Own Luck has approximately the same initiative as a divination wizard using a portent. This means it's a tossup.
EB won't cut through a lot the Wizard spells. Invulnerability or a a Globe of Invulnerability will conquer the EB easily. If you go for far range, a wizard will cast one of those.
The only way a Warlock wins is if the Wizard did not have the time to pick his spells, or if the Warlock gets VERY lucky.
Completely accurate. you’d have to immediately destroy the wizards spellbook. Good luck.
the warlock has no way of battling vs Feeblemind hitting. None. And the divination wizard can guarantee it. And the warlock can’t take down the wizard fast enough to stop this.
I agree that the warlock has no way of resisting feeblemind, but disagree with the assertion that the warlock can't take down the wizard fast enough. Again, read the thread; there's a detailed warlock strategy presented.
Either the spells Invunerability or Globe of Invunerability pretty much kill the Subtle spell build. But both require concentratio
Hurl through Hell does not stop someone from acting. You cast that and they immediately vanish, take their turn (where you cannot react against them), THEN take damage after they return.
Proper response is to cast Invulnerability while they are hurling through Hell. Assuming they have it memorized, which they should, it is the best protection in the game.
A divination wizard. Has no possible way of losing. Regardless of initiative.
thats a win for wizard period. No matter what. No matter any warlock. The same cannot be said for warlock. You basically need to have a specialized warlock for a specific not specialized for warlocks wizard, for the warlock.
i don’t see where the debate continues here.
This tells me that you are either highly biased or you didn't read the thread. The debate continues because people, like yourself, keep posting that the wizard wins without any evidence or argument. The pro-warlock side of this debate has presented a well-detailed strategy that does win when the warlock wins initiative. Again, yes that is a specialized warlock, but it's true for any wizard including a specialized divination wizard. The pro-wizard side of this debate, with a few respectable exceptions, has yet to present a similarly detailed strategy. The ones that have been presented, while effective, still lose when they lose initiative. As near as I can tell, a warlock with Dark One's Own Luck has approximately the same initiative as a divination wizard using a portent. This means it's a tossup.
EB won't cut through a lot the Wizard spells. Invulnerability or a a Globe of Invulnerability will conquer the EB easily. If you go for far range, a wizard will cast one of those.
The only way a Warlock wins is if the Wizard did not have the time to pick his spells, or if the Warlock gets VERY lucky.
Completely accurate. you’d have to immediately destroy the wizards spellbook. Good luck.
the warlock has no way of battling vs Feeblemind hitting. None. And the divination wizard can guarantee it. And the warlock can’t take down the wizard fast enough to stop this.
I agree that the warlock has no way of resisting feeblemind, but disagree with the assertion that the warlock can't take down the wizard fast enough. Again, read the thread; there's a detailed warlock strategy presented.
Okay...
let’s use your warlock wins initiative. Walk me through how he wins in 6 seconds or less. I’ll bite.
and that’s going along with your assumption warlock wins initiative, which again. Not a guarantee vs a divination wizard. Since nothing to stop them from using a high portent for their initiative and the low for the save vs feeblemind.
so... I’ll bite. You have essentially until the wizard is within range, if they aren’t already.
edit: and if you read the thread... I detailed out how this “biased strategy” debunks ALL the warlock strategies possible. But that’s if you read form post 1- all of them. JS.
Reread Feeblemind - the Wizard can't cast it on the Warlock if he can't see the Warlock. Divination or not, he can't cast it on the Warlock unless he can see the Warlock.
how is the warlock, surprising the wizard at all? To get any sort of upper hand on the wizard, to where the wizard is not completely prepared for a warlock? Wizards tend to set up a lot of spells and traps and barriers and preparations and etc to see if anyone’s trying to spy on them, or to spy on others etc etc.
Is the warlock able to deal with an anti magic field cast by a divination wizard? At all? Looks like for that the warlock can’t really do anything but run... or try and dispel it. Either way... dispel magic or running. Puts the warlock out of being able to attack.
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The main question for what makes the battle actually fair is this:
What distance should they be from each other when the battle starts?
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That doesn't matter unless they both start really far apart. <=30 feet engage in melee, >30 feet move outside counterspell range and cast EB.
How far apart do you think is fair? 60 feet seems like the natural distance to me (darkvision range).
I don't know what range is fair. I would say that the arena should be brightly lit to be fair to all races.
The problem that if they're too far away, that benefits an Eldritch Spammer warlock way more than a wizard (especially with spell sniper and other range increasing abilities).
I'd say 60 feet is the fairest to both of them, because that's the range of Counterspell. A Hexblade will probably want to engage in melee, like a Bladesinger would, and an Eldritch Spammer would want to move far away. Wizards would want to be at the 30/60 foot range, as most of their spells have a range similar to that, but that seems to be favoring the Wizard more.
I'd say 60 feet is the fairest distance. It doesn't favor the Warlock or Wizard too much.
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Wow, This thread has turned epic. and as normally a caster player I actually like some of the Warlocks tactics, eg power word stun, hurl through hell.
But as I mentioned in other forums, The most a Warlock could do is temporarily annoy the wizard until the their soul returns to their clone and that's where they would plan the Warlock's demise.
You'd be a pretty silly wizard if you didn't have back up plans :)
Simply - just cast Invisibility while “Hurled through Hell”. The PWK doesn’t trigger, Warlock just lost their level 9 spell and Globe of Invulnerability is now unbreachable. Use Magic Missile 250+ times until the Warlock is a petty stain on the sidewalk because it’s your Spell Mastery choice. And this is only if you *lose* initiative.
Manacles and gags? You’re not getting all of that off in one round, you’re *maybe* getting one or the other. Manacles? Power Word Stun back at you and a free round to remove the manacles. Gag? Counterspell still works, and you can use your free hands to interact and remove them.
There is literally no tool the Warlock has to 1v1 a Wizard. The Warlock is Wizard-lite with the sole advantage of continuous battles over a period of multiple short rests - he will never overcome the strengths of a Wizard in strict PVP.
And we haven’t even considered the advantages gained by the choice of School for the Wizard.
Interesting notion, unlike Banishment, nothing in the description of Hurl Through Hell says that the target is incapacitated or otherwise loses the ability to perform actions on their turn.
Interesting tactic that completely disregards the concept of concentration. The wizard can concentrate on invulnerability, globe of invulnerability, or invisibility, but not a combination of them. Also unless the wizard takes no damage from hurl through hell, which is only true for invulnerability, the wizard's looking at a DC 27 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration. Maybe a different tactic while being hurled through hell would work, but not casting invisibility. Even if for some reason the wizard did come back invisible, warlocks have access to witch sight to see the wizard anyway.
Definitely not in one round, but power word stun lasts until the target succeeds on a saving throw. How many rounds does the warlock get? Also a warlock with 16 Con has enough hp that power word stun wouldn't work.
This sentiment is the reason why I have been such a strong advocate for the warlock. They're definitely the underdog, but the notion that they're "Wizard-lite" is ridiculous. Half of this thread is now about the tools that warlocks have to 1v1 wizards. Can most warlocks 1v1 most wizards? Definitely not. Can a specialized warlock 1v1 most wizards? Yes, I think that's been demonstrated in this thread. Can a specialized warlock 1v1 a specialized wizard? This one depends on which wins initiative. I think that's also been demonstrated in this thread.
True Seeing versus Shadow of Moil - does the Wizard see the Warlock or not?
A Chronurgist could just make the Warlock lose initiative.
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I don't consider Wildemount to be canon, just fancy homebrew (but that's a separate issue). Regardless, I don't think a chronurgist can do that. There is no definition of "minimum needed to succeed" for an initiative roll so choosing that roll to be successful or not doesn't even make sense in this context.
If I'm parsing Jeremy Crawford correctly, truesight can see through the darkness created by shadow of moil, but not the "flame-like" shadows that actual cause the heavy obscurement.
You didn't tell what magic school have the Wizard, nore what magic school have the Warlock....
Then depends on the Magic school, the equipment, and/or the spells.
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I"m going with the level 20 Sorcerer to take them both....Subtle counterspell and subtle spells....that's enough...
EB won't cut through a lot the Wizard spells. Invulnerability or a a Globe of Invulnerability will conquer the EB easily. If you go for far range, a wizard will cast one of those.
The only way a Warlock wins is if the Wizard did not have the time to pick his spells, or if the Warlock gets VERY lucky.
A divination wizard. Has no possible way of losing. Regardless of initiative.
thats a win for wizard period. No matter what. No matter any warlock. The same cannot be said for warlock. You basically need to have a specialized warlock for a specific not specialized for warlocks wizard, for the warlock.
i don’t see where the debate continues here.
Completely accurate.
you’d have to immediately destroy the wizards spellbook. Good luck.
the warlock has no way of battling vs Feeblemind hitting. None. And the divination wizard can guarantee it. And the warlock can’t take down the wizard fast enough to stop this.
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This tells me that you are either highly biased or you didn't read the thread. The debate continues because people, like yourself, keep posting that the wizard wins without any evidence or argument. The pro-warlock side of this debate has presented a well-detailed strategy that does win when the warlock wins initiative. Again, yes that is a specialized warlock, but it's true for any wizard including a specialized divination wizard. The pro-wizard side of this debate, with a few respectable exceptions, has yet to present a similarly detailed strategy. The ones that have been presented, while effective, still lose when they lose initiative. As near as I can tell, a warlock with Dark One's Own Luck has approximately the same initiative as a divination wizard using a portent. This means it's a tossup.
I agree that the warlock has no way of resisting feeblemind, but disagree with the assertion that the warlock can't take down the wizard fast enough. Again, read the thread; there's a detailed warlock strategy presented.
Either the spells Invunerability or Globe of Invunerability pretty much kill the Subtle spell build. But both require concentratio
Hurl through Hell does not stop someone from acting. You cast that and they immediately vanish, take their turn (where you cannot react against them), THEN take damage after they return.
Proper response is to cast Invulnerability while they are hurling through Hell. Assuming they have it memorized, which they should, it is the best protection in the game.
Okay...
let’s use your warlock wins initiative. Walk me through how he wins in 6 seconds or less. I’ll bite.
and that’s going along with your assumption warlock wins initiative, which again. Not a guarantee vs a divination wizard. Since nothing to stop them from using a high portent for their initiative and the low for the save vs feeblemind.
so... I’ll bite. You have essentially until the wizard is within range, if they aren’t already.
edit: and if you read the thread... I detailed out how this “biased strategy” debunks ALL the warlock strategies possible. But that’s if you read form post 1- all of them. JS.
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Reread Feeblemind - the Wizard can't cast it on the Warlock if he can't see the Warlock. Divination or not, he can't cast it on the Warlock unless he can see the Warlock.
I’ll even go 1 step further down the rabbit hole.
how is the warlock, surprising the wizard at all? To get any sort of upper hand on the wizard, to where the wizard is not completely prepared for a warlock? Wizards tend to set up a lot of spells and traps and barriers and preparations and etc to see if anyone’s trying to spy on them, or to spy on others etc etc.
Is the warlock able to deal with an anti magic field cast by a divination wizard? At all? Looks like for that the warlock can’t really do anything but run... or try and dispel it. Either way... dispel magic or running. Puts the warlock out of being able to attack.
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