Reread Feeblemind - the Wizard can't cast it on the Warlock if he can't see the Warlock. Divination or not, he can't cast it on the Warlock unless he can see the Warlock.
How is the warlock pulling off not being seen praytell?
Reread Feeblemind - the Wizard can't cast it on the Warlock if he can't see the Warlock. Divination or not, he can't cast it on the Warlock unless he can see the Warlock.
How is the warlock pulling off not being seen praytell?
Once they reach level 15, Warlocks can have Invisibility at will if they choose the invocation, as can Wizards at level 18 if they choose Invisibility as their at will 2nd level spell. Warlocks also can cast Shadow of Moil if they suspect the Wizard of using True Seeing. Warlocks can go invisible at will (but not move without losing invisibility) all the way down at level 5 with a different invocation.
Reread Feeblemind - the Wizard can't cast it on the Warlock if he can't see the Warlock. Divination or not, he can't cast it on the Warlock unless he can see the Warlock.
How is the warlock pulling off not being seen praytell?
Once they reach level 15, Warlocks can have Invisibility at will if they choose the invocation, as can Wizards at level 18 if they choose Invisibility as their at will 2nd level spell. Warlocks also can cast Shadow of Moil if they suspect the Wizard of using True Seeing. Warlocks can go invisible at will (but not move without losing invisibility) all the way down at level 5 with a different invocation.
So... because a warlock can be invisible... you suspect... a level 20 wizard is sitting there.
”damn. Level 20. Strong as the gods themselves. Wish I had a way to deal with invisibility. All these invisible things able to sneak up completely unknown”
shadow of moil:
1. Counterspell
2 out of CS range. Anti magic field. Shadow of mill runs out since shorter duration.
So you're saying that the Wizard gets to put up his buffs, but the Warlock doesn't get to put up any of his buffs? I guess you don't want the Warlock and Wizard on a fair playing field?
If you're using your first turn on Counterspell to get rid of a buff from the Warlock, then that means the Warlock automatically gets 1 turn before you do something other than Counterspell, and possibly 2 turns before you actually get to do something other than Counterspell.
(Also, if the Warlock was close enough, Divination Wizards can see through invisibility, and have the True Seeing spell if they need to.)
If we give the Wizard the ability to cast buffs on himself before combat, it's only fair to give the Warlock the same opportunity.
If we're saying that they're both given no time to prepare for combat, do we even assume that the Wizard has Mage Armor on, or *gasp* that he has his spellbook with him?
(Also, if the Warlock was close enough, Divination Wizards can see through invisibility, and have the True Seeing spell if they need to.)
If we give the Wizard the ability to cast buffs on himself before combat, it's only fair to give the Warlock the same opportunity.
If we're saying that they're both given no time to prepare for combat, do we even assume that the Wizard has Mage Armor on, or *gasp* that he has his spellbook with him?
I wasn't advocating for them being able to cast spells before combat, I'm very much against that, but Divination Wizards have permanent extended senses that they choose every day.
If the Warlock casts invisibility, and the Wizard doesn't counterspell it, than it's a problem easily solved by casting True Seeing or having invisibility sight on.
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As long as we're consistent. If there's no buff spells (not even at-will spells) before combat for either character, that's one situation. If there's buff spells before combat for both characters, that's a very different situation. We need to figure out what situation we're talking about. Because the two scenarios are very different.
If you're using your first turn on Counterspell to get rid of a buff from the Warlock, then that means the Warlock automatically gets 1 turn before you do something other than Counterspell, and possibly 2 turns before you actually get to do something other than Counterspell.
I don't understand why the Warlock would have extra turns. Isn't counter spell a reaction spell?
Also every PvP that I've heard of either doesn't include magic items or at least the opponent needs equally powerful magic items. Unless you are already accepting one is weaker and needs a handicap.
If you're using your first turn on Counterspell to get rid of a buff from the Warlock, then that means the Warlock automatically gets 1 turn before you do something other than Counterspell, and possibly 2 turns before you actually get to do something other than Counterspell.
I don't understand why the Warlock would have extra turns. Isn't counter spell a reaction spell?
Also every PvP that I've heard of either doesn't include magic items or at least the opponent needs equally powerful magic items. Unless you are already accepting one is weaker and needs a handicap.
Either the spells Invunerability or Globe of Invunerability pretty much kill the Subtle spell build. But both require concentratio
Hurl through Hell does not stop someone from acting. You cast that and they immediately vanish, take their turn (where you cannot react against them), THEN take damage after they return.
Proper response is to cast Invulnerability while they are hurling through Hell. Assuming they have it memorized, which they should, it is the best protection in the game.
Thank you for actually engaging and suggesting a counter-strategy instead of just dismissing the warlock.
This wizard strategy does rely on the wizard having more than 150 hp before being hurled. That means a minimum of 18 Con, assuming the wizard takes less than 13 damage before being hurled. I'm trying to picture this wizard because there's some sacrifice to get to 18 Con. It's a minimum of 1 ASI and it basically means that the wizard is either giving up on winning initiative (by sacrificing the Alert feat or dexterity ASI) or the wizard is accepting a lower spell save DC by choosing a lower Int.
In my original suggestion for the strategy, I did say to go for a blade pact and eldritch smite off the first hit for ~7d8+8 (39) damage. That is enough to take even a 20 Con wizard down below 150. However, depending on the starting range of the fight the warlock gets 2 or 3 attacks (2 by bow or 3 by melee with an offhand). The probability of all misses is low so the wizard probably has to use portents, which the probability of rolling them all low enough is small. I'm not that good with probabilities anymore, but I think the warlock can get a hit (if someone wants to do the actual probabilities, I'm definitely curious).
Unfortunately, I realized that if the wizard is below 150 hp and gets hurled through hell, we're back to the 50-50. The wizard has two choices, 9th-level globe of invulnerability or invulnerability. One keeps the wizard safe from power word stun but vulnerable to power word kill, the other keeps the wizard safe from power word kill but vulnerable to power word stun.
Given that the probability of the warlock hitting is somewhat less than 100% and the probability of the warlock choosing the right spell is 50%, that means that the wizard should usually win. As part of my concession speech I would like to point out that it's not "a win for [divination] wizard period. No matter what. No matter any warlock." only that the odds are somewhat in the wizard's favor.
My strategy. Pick a moderator to act as DM. Pick someone to run the lock and someone to run the wiz. Go to Play By Post and duke it out. Run this about 10-20 times possibly changing the wiz and lock peeps out and keep track of what happens.
Oh and I forgot to mention my lock strat. Neither the lock nor the wiz would win. Cause there is no way in hell any lock would do a "fair" fight with anyone much less a comparable wizard. Going into the fight I would be Great Old One patron and the only things I would do would be everything possible to run away. Then over the course of possibly years engineer a way to be in the same room with the wizard while they are incapacitated. Then use the Thrall ability and go take over the world together. The end.
Unfortunately, I realized that if the wizard is below 150 hp and gets hurled through hell, we're back to the 50-50. The wizard has two choices, 9th-level globe of invulnerability or invulnerability. One keeps the wizard safe from power word stun but vulnerable to power word kill, the other keeps the wizard safe from power word kill but vulnerable to power word stun.
I forgot about the DC 27 Con save for concentration if the warlock casts globe of invulnerability so that option is out. I'm back to thinking the warlock likely wins unless the wizard really invests heavily in hit points. At least 18 Con and the Tough feat or a hill dwarf with 20 Con is required, either way that's 2 ASIs minimum.
That is to say though, that I do think this specialized wizard wins, because above those hit point thresholds I don't think the warlock can do anything and those are perfectly valid character choices. However, I don't think I would want to play a wizard that sacrifices Int so much, while I would play a fiend bladelock that sacrificed Cha.
I don't have a specialized warlock killing wizard character but he is a Diviner and this is how I'd try to approach the proposed fiend warlock strategy assuming I don't get to prep. It's an "as built" strategy not from a character specifically designed for the situation.
Try to win initiative with Portent.
If that fails, assume one of the Eldritch Bolts hits despite Shield and I do get Hurled Through Hell. The warlock has one of the Power Words readied as an action for my reappearance. Surprise! In the meantime, on my turn, I've cast True Polymorph. Returning as a Pit Fiend, I'm a fiend, and rather than take 10d10 damage I'm just in the mood. Neither Power Word strategy works and it's now my action. I can try to eat them, they've blown some major resources already and I've got a really high constitution to maintain my spell and am close to fully charged. Or, given my character's personality, implement my won initiative strategy below.
If I win initiative, the only way to win is not to play. Cast Teleport or Plane Shift (I know at least a couple of sigil sequences from Teleportation Circle). Now I can take my time and keep an eye on the warlock, who I've at least seen, with Scrying and Portents. Cast Demiplane and start stocking it up with Clone, Simulacrum, and Glyphs of Warding to supercharge myself with buffs. Once I'm comfortable there, do the same with Galder's Tower back on the prime material plane. Wish gets me around the costs, in case it matters. Invite said warlock to a discussion in my tower (Sending). If we can't resolve the problem or they refuse to come I can reinitiate the battle anytime with a ton of buffs active and concentration held by magic for the cost of, at most, a 5th (Scrying) and 7th (Teleport or Plane Shift) level slot.
The wizard's power is flexibility and spending time planning and prepping. My spell choices are very unoptimized for 1v1 battles and I don't think you even need to be a Diviner.
I still can't get an answer about what buffs people are or are not allowed to have, but an Abjuration Wizard with an Arcane Ward with 45 hit points active will often survive being hit by four Eldritch Blasts with his ward still intact and won't have taken any damage even if all four attacks can get past his mage armor + shield spell.
Edit: An abjurer doesn't need to have his Arcane Ward setup before combat, it will activate when he casts Shield if it wasn't already active.
I don't have a specialized warlock killing wizard character but he is a Diviner and this is how I'd try to approach the proposed fiend warlock strategy assuming I don't get to prep. It's an "as built" strategy not from a character specifically designed for the situation.
Try to win initiative with Portent.
If that fails, assume one of the Eldritch Bolts hits despite Shield and I do get Hurled Through Hell. The warlock has one of the Power Words readied as an action for my reappearance. Surprise! In the meantime, on my turn, I've cast True Polymorph. Returning as a Pit Fiend, I'm a fiend, and rather than take 10d10 damage I'm just in the mood. Neither Power Word strategy works and it's now my action. I can try to eat them, they've blown some major resources already and I've got a really high constitution to maintain my spell and am close to fully charged. Or, given my character's personality, implement my won initiative strategy below.
If I win initiative, the only way to win is not to play. Cast Teleport or Plane Shift (I know at least a couple of sigil sequences from Teleportation Circle). Now I can take my time and keep an eye on the warlock, who I've at least seen, with Scrying and Portents. Cast Demiplane and start stocking it up with Clone, Simulacrum, and Glyphs of Warding to supercharge myself with buffs. Once I'm comfortable there, do the same with Galder's Tower back on the prime material plane. Wish gets me around the costs, in case it matters. Invite said warlock to a discussion in my tower (Sending). If we can't resolve the problem or they refuse to come I can reinitiate the battle anytime with a ton of buffs active and concentration held by magic for the cost of, at most, a 5th (Scrying) and 7th (Teleport or Plane Shift) level slot.
The wizard's power is flexibility and spending time planning and prepping. My spell choices are very unoptimized for 1v1 battles and I don't think you even need to be a Diviner.
I haven't wanted to address true polymorph because there situation quickly spirals out of the realm of predictability. It's one of my favorite spells though and it's definitely my go to for a standard warlock's 9th-level spell. Even before you suggested the wizard cast it, I was wondering if that would make the best opener for the warlock and decided I didn't want to think about the added complication.
Even as a pit fiend, the wizard isn't likely to pass a DC 27 Con save. +13 to Con saves means the wizard still has to roll a 14 or better and as a pit fiend they no longer have portents to help.
As a demilich though, the wizard would have immunity from psychic damage and could pretty much reduce the warlock to zero hp with an action.
It is unlikely the wizard would win initiative, even with a portent and the alert feat. If the wizard does win initiative, the battle is already over because the wizard just has to cast feeblemind.
If you want to consider running away as a viable strategy, that's fine, but don't assume the warlock is going to be stupid enough to come at the wizard's invitation to the wizard's home.
Edit: Oops, a demilich only has 80 hp so power word stun would still work. Better to choose an androsphinx. Then the wizard just drops concentration and casts feeblemind on its turn. Frustratingly, this strategy works for all wizards and invalidates the warlock strategy. Back to the drawing board.
Edit2: I see now the exception for fiends in Hurl Through Hell.
I don't have a specialized warlock killing wizard character but he is a Diviner and this is how I'd try to approach the proposed fiend warlock strategy assuming I don't get to prep. It's an "as built" strategy not from a character specifically designed for the situation.
Try to win initiative with Portent.
If that fails, assume one of the Eldritch Bolts hits despite Shield and I do get Hurled Through Hell. The warlock has one of the Power Words readied as an action for my reappearance. Surprise! In the meantime, on my turn, I've cast True Polymorph. Returning as a Pit Fiend, I'm a fiend, and rather than take 10d10 damage I'm just in the mood. Neither Power Word strategy works and it's now my action. I can try to eat them, they've blown some major resources already and I've got a really high constitution to maintain my spell and am close to fully charged. Or, given my character's personality, implement my won initiative strategy below.
If I win initiative, the only way to win is not to play. Cast Teleport or Plane Shift (I know at least a couple of sigil sequences from Teleportation Circle). Now I can take my time and keep an eye on the warlock, who I've at least seen, with Scrying and Portents. Cast Demiplane and start stocking it up with Clone, Simulacrum, and Glyphs of Warding to supercharge myself with buffs. Once I'm comfortable there, do the same with Galder's Tower back on the prime material plane. Wish gets me around the costs, in case it matters. Invite said warlock to a discussion in my tower (Sending). If we can't resolve the problem or they refuse to come I can reinitiate the battle anytime with a ton of buffs active and concentration held by magic for the cost of, at most, a 5th (Scrying) and 7th (Teleport or Plane Shift) level slot.
The wizard's power is flexibility and spending time planning and prepping. My spell choices are very unoptimized for 1v1 battles and I don't think you even need to be a Diviner.
I haven't wanted to address true polymorph because there situation quickly spirals out of the realm of predictability. It's one of my favorite spells though and it's definitely my go to for a standard warlock's 9th-level spell. Even before you suggested the wizard cast it, I was wondering if that would make the best opener for the warlock and decided I didn't want to think about the added complication.
Even as a pit fiend, the wizard isn't likely to pass a DC 27 Con save. +13 to Con saves means the wizard still has to roll a 14 or better and as a pit fiend they no longer have portents to help.
As a demilich though, the wizard would have immunity from psychic damage and could pretty much reduce the warlock to zero hp with an action.
It is unlikely the wizard would win initiative, even with a portent and the alert feat. If the wizard does win initiative, the battle is already over because the wizard just has to cast feeblemind.
If you want to consider running away as a viable strategy, that's fine, but don't assume the warlock is going to be stupid enough to come at the wizard's invitation to the wizard's home.
Edit: Oops, a demilich only has 80 hp so power word stun would still work. Better to choose an androsphinx. Then the wizard just drops concentration and casts feeblemind on its turn. Frustratingly, this strategy works for all wizards and invalidates the warlock strategy. Back to the drawing board.
Edit2: I see now the exception for fiends in Hurl Through Hell.
Demiliches are immune to the Stunned condition.
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How is the warlock pulling off not being seen praytell?
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Once they reach level 15, Warlocks can have Invisibility at will if they choose the invocation, as can Wizards at level 18 if they choose Invisibility as their at will 2nd level spell.
Warlocks also can cast Shadow of Moil if they suspect the Wizard of using True Seeing. Warlocks can go invisible at will (but not move without losing invisibility) all the way down at level 5 with a different invocation.
So... because a warlock can be invisible... you suspect... a level 20 wizard is sitting there.
”damn. Level 20. Strong as the gods themselves. Wish I had a way to deal with invisibility. All these invisible things able to sneak up completely unknown”
shadow of moil:
1. Counterspell
2 out of CS range. Anti magic field. Shadow of mill runs out since shorter duration.
3. I can go on a lot here... do I need to?
4. contingency.
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So you're saying that the Wizard gets to put up his buffs, but the Warlock doesn't get to put up any of his buffs? I guess you don't want the Warlock and Wizard on a fair playing field?
If you're using your first turn on Counterspell to get rid of a buff from the Warlock, then that means the Warlock automatically gets 1 turn before you do something other than Counterspell, and possibly 2 turns before you actually get to do something other than Counterspell.
Also, what if the Warlock shows up wearing a Headband of Intellect?
(Also, if the Warlock was close enough, Divination Wizards can see through invisibility, and have the True Seeing spell if they need to.)
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If we give the Wizard the ability to cast buffs on himself before combat, it's only fair to give the Warlock the same opportunity.
If we're saying that they're both given no time to prepare for combat, do we even assume that the Wizard has Mage Armor on, or *gasp* that he has his spellbook with him?
I wasn't advocating for them being able to cast spells before combat, I'm very much against that, but Divination Wizards have permanent extended senses that they choose every day.
If the Warlock casts invisibility, and the Wizard doesn't counterspell it, than it's a problem easily solved by casting True Seeing or having invisibility sight on.
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As long as we're consistent. If there's no buff spells (not even at-will spells) before combat for either character, that's one situation. If there's buff spells before combat for both characters, that's a very different situation. We need to figure out what situation we're talking about. Because the two scenarios are very different.
I don't understand why the Warlock would have extra turns. Isn't counter spell a reaction spell?
Also every PvP that I've heard of either doesn't include magic items or at least the opponent needs equally powerful magic items. Unless you are already accepting one is weaker and needs a handicap.
Sorry, I meant Dispel Magic, not Counterspell.
Thank you for actually engaging and suggesting a counter-strategy instead of just dismissing the warlock.
This wizard strategy does rely on the wizard having more than 150 hp before being hurled. That means a minimum of 18 Con, assuming the wizard takes less than 13 damage before being hurled. I'm trying to picture this wizard because there's some sacrifice to get to 18 Con. It's a minimum of 1 ASI and it basically means that the wizard is either giving up on winning initiative (by sacrificing the Alert feat or dexterity ASI) or the wizard is accepting a lower spell save DC by choosing a lower Int.
In my original suggestion for the strategy, I did say to go for a blade pact and eldritch smite off the first hit for ~7d8+8 (39) damage. That is enough to take even a 20 Con wizard down below 150. However, depending on the starting range of the fight the warlock gets 2 or 3 attacks (2 by bow or 3 by melee with an offhand). The probability of all misses is low so the wizard probably has to use portents, which the probability of rolling them all low enough is small. I'm not that good with probabilities anymore, but I think the warlock can get a hit (if someone wants to do the actual probabilities, I'm definitely curious).
Unfortunately, I realized that if the wizard is below 150 hp and gets hurled through hell, we're back to the 50-50. The wizard has two choices, 9th-level globe of invulnerability or invulnerability. One keeps the wizard safe from power word stun but vulnerable to power word kill, the other keeps the wizard safe from power word kill but vulnerable to power word stun.
Given that the probability of the warlock hitting is somewhat less than 100% and the probability of the warlock choosing the right spell is 50%, that means that the wizard should usually win. As part of my concession speech I would like to point out that it's not "a win for [divination] wizard period. No matter what. No matter any warlock." only that the odds are somewhat in the wizard's favor.
My strategy. Pick a moderator to act as DM. Pick someone to run the lock and someone to run the wiz. Go to Play By Post and duke it out. Run this about 10-20 times possibly changing the wiz and lock peeps out and keep track of what happens.
Oh and I forgot to mention my lock strat. Neither the lock nor the wiz would win. Cause there is no way in hell any lock would do a "fair" fight with anyone much less a comparable wizard. Going into the fight I would be Great Old One patron and the only things I would do would be everything possible to run away. Then over the course of possibly years engineer a way to be in the same room with the wizard while they are incapacitated. Then use the Thrall ability and go take over the world together. The end.
I forgot about the DC 27 Con save for concentration if the warlock casts globe of invulnerability so that option is out. I'm back to thinking the warlock likely wins unless the wizard really invests heavily in hit points. At least 18 Con and the Tough feat or a hill dwarf with 20 Con is required, either way that's 2 ASIs minimum.
That is to say though, that I do think this specialized wizard wins, because above those hit point thresholds I don't think the warlock can do anything and those are perfectly valid character choices. However, I don't think I would want to play a wizard that sacrifices Int so much, while I would play a fiend bladelock that sacrificed Cha.
I don't have a specialized warlock killing wizard character but he is a Diviner and this is how I'd try to approach the proposed fiend warlock strategy assuming I don't get to prep. It's an "as built" strategy not from a character specifically designed for the situation.
Try to win initiative with Portent.
If that fails, assume one of the Eldritch Bolts hits despite Shield and I do get Hurled Through Hell. The warlock has one of the Power Words readied as an action for my reappearance. Surprise! In the meantime, on my turn, I've cast True Polymorph. Returning as a Pit Fiend, I'm a fiend, and rather than take 10d10 damage I'm just in the mood. Neither Power Word strategy works and it's now my action. I can try to eat them, they've blown some major resources already and I've got a really high constitution to maintain my spell and am close to fully charged. Or, given my character's personality, implement my won initiative strategy below.
If I win initiative, the only way to win is not to play. Cast Teleport or Plane Shift (I know at least a couple of sigil sequences from Teleportation Circle). Now I can take my time and keep an eye on the warlock, who I've at least seen, with Scrying and Portents. Cast Demiplane and start stocking it up with Clone, Simulacrum, and Glyphs of Warding to supercharge myself with buffs. Once I'm comfortable there, do the same with Galder's Tower back on the prime material plane. Wish gets me around the costs, in case it matters. Invite said warlock to a discussion in my tower (Sending). If we can't resolve the problem or they refuse to come I can reinitiate the battle anytime with a ton of buffs active and concentration held by magic for the cost of, at most, a 5th (Scrying) and 7th (Teleport or Plane Shift) level slot.
The wizard's power is flexibility and spending time planning and prepping. My spell choices are very unoptimized for 1v1 battles and I don't think you even need to be a Diviner.
I still can't get an answer about what buffs people are or are not allowed to have, but an Abjuration Wizard with an Arcane Ward with 45 hit points active will often survive being hit by four Eldritch Blasts with his ward still intact and won't have taken any damage even if all four attacks can get past his mage armor + shield spell.
Edit: An abjurer doesn't need to have his Arcane Ward setup before combat, it will activate when he casts Shield if it wasn't already active.
I haven't wanted to address true polymorph because there situation quickly spirals out of the realm of predictability. It's one of my favorite spells though and it's definitely my go to for a standard warlock's 9th-level spell. Even before you suggested the wizard cast it, I was wondering if that would make the best opener for the warlock and decided I didn't want to think about the added complication.
Even as a pit fiend, the wizard isn't likely to pass a DC 27 Con save. +13 to Con saves means the wizard still has to roll a 14 or better and as a pit fiend they no longer have portents to help.
As a demilich though, the wizard would have immunity from psychic damage and could pretty much reduce the warlock to zero hp with an action.
It is unlikely the wizard would win initiative, even with a portent and the alert feat. If the wizard does win initiative, the battle is already over because the wizard just has to cast feeblemind.
If you want to consider running away as a viable strategy, that's fine, but don't assume the warlock is going to be stupid enough to come at the wizard's invitation to the wizard's home.
Edit: Oops, a demilich only has 80 hp so power word stun would still work. Better to choose an androsphinx. Then the wizard just drops concentration and casts feeblemind on its turn. Frustratingly, this strategy works for all wizards and invalidates the warlock strategy. Back to the drawing board.
Edit2: I see now the exception for fiends in Hurl Through Hell.
Wizard with it's ability to counterspell way more times that a Warlock has spell slots.
Demiliches are immune to the Stunned condition.
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