I think it depends on too much. I'd probably put my money on the wizard though.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Pure Wizard vs Pure Warlock? No backup, no multi-classing?
Wizard has a big advantage in a one-on-one fight. The Warlock is more designed for longer draw out battle (several unlimited times spell abilities, plus the ability to regain slots after a short rest).
If the Warlock is focused on a build (Devil Sight + Darkness), then the Wizard might lose if he has no ability to counter it (like say the use of counter spells and the Globe of Invunerability)
for 20th level, I'd think the Wizard has the advantage, with things like wish, invulnerability, Portent, Convergent Future, Contingency, Time stop which warlock doesn't have. I think Warlocks are built for long battles, where when big spells are involved, things are going to end in 1 or 2 rounds.
Up-cast spells is a barely there. At almost all levels, it is at most 1 extra spell slot. At 20th (which we are talking about), it is a single extra 5th level slot. 1 extra 5th level slot is not meaningful to a 20th level caster, especially at the cost of a ton of lower level spells.
At 20th level it is a comparison of 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th level Wizard spell vs. no slots whatsoever but the exact same Number of Mystic Arcanaum. EXACTLY the same.
As for Eldritch Blast, the key to Warlocks low level power, wizards have a lot of other stuff. E.Blast is nice, but also tends to be predictable and counter-able for that very reason. A Wizard is likely to be casting Counter spell as a reaction every round, while the Warlock does jack shit with his reaction, because he HE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH SLOTS. He has 5 slots + 4 Arcanaum. Battle better be over in 5 rounds or he is out of everything. Wizard can take him if the battle goes too long
The high level Warlock gets an out of combat recharge at level 20, again focusing on his staying power over multiple combats. The Wizard that gets a Signature spell at 20th level which is very likely to include Counter spell, yet another free casting.
The real test would be what build they made. Which arcane tradition they got. The person that created a build designed to take down other magic users would likely win.
But if neither did that, again, I state that a Wizard has more staying power than the Warlock. Yes, the warlock gets one extra 5th level slot, but the wizard has more flexibility and is likely counter spelling (as 3rd level slot vs Eldritch Blast) everything the Warlock does for the first 5 rounds.
Actually, a level 20 Wizard has two 6th and 7th level spell slots.
As others have said, the Arcane Tradition and Warlock Patron make a big difference. Which means that an Abjurer flat out wins just about every time.
Also, regarding Power Word: Kill. Assuming both characters have 14 Constitution and lack any feats, magic items, or racial abilities that improve their HP and both have taken the flat boost instead of rolling at every level, the Warlock has 143 HP vs the Wizard's 122. One failed save vs Finger of Death or Disintegrate will drop the Warlock well below the PWK threshold. The Wizard will also drop below the threshold after a hard poke, unless of course it's an Abjurer with a magic shield that can absorb an extra 45 damage, resistance to spell damage, and advantage on saves vs spells.
Oh, and regardless of which Arcane Tradition the wizard went with, they can pop out enough castings of Counterspell to completely shut down all of the Warlock's spell slots while having plenty of juice left over.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You guys really think the Warlock would lose that hard? Dang, that's not good! I made this thread because I learned that a level 20 Wizard is confirmed to destroy a Fighter 90% of the time, and they're also straight up supereffective to Clerics as well (like Charizard is to Blastoise). Is there any single class that can take on the fear-inspiring Wizard 1-on-1?
The real problem is that Wizard is the most flexible of classes. They can change their spells every long rest, and should have quite a few. Not all Wizards will kill a Warlock - if they don't have Counterspell prepared, the Wizard is more likely to die.
The real way to kill a 20th level Wizard is to catch him by surprise and unprepared. Hidden, sneak attacking with poison is good. Any save except Intelligence or Wisdom will likely hurt them - but - Charisma or Strength saves are your best bet.
In addition, the Wizard in a party is not as likely to do the most damage. He spends most of his time making life difficult for the bad guys while the other players kill.
The real best way to kill a 20th level wizard is to not fight it one-on-one. Use disposable assets to force the wizard to use up spells and keep the pressure on to prevent them from resting.
Of course, you'll need to have some means of also preventing them from just Teleporting or Plane Shifting away.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So, any fight between a Warlock and anything else will have the Warlock Eldritch Blast-Hex spamming. It's really simple on how the Wizard wins the combat.
If the Warlock goes first, counterspell their Eldritch Blast, not hex. You don't care if Hex is on you, because next round, you're indestructible. So, Warlock's first round is wasted.
On your turn, you cast Invulnerability. If they counterspell, you counterspell their counterspell. You're now invulnerable.
Next step, win.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I think this contest is heavily weighted toward the wizard, but that doesn't mean that the wizard wins in all cases. I think a wizard-killer warlock could be made, but it would involve spell choices that I would never make when playing a warlock. This might work against a warlock-killer wizard that wasn't specifically built to counter this strategy.
Power word stun is going to be the best the warlock can hope for. At max hp a wizard with less than 18 Con only has 142 hp.
Counterspell on deck just in case the wizard counterspells.
Standard gag/blindfold/manacles routine after that.
Kill however you like after that.
Optionally, double down on this strategy by going GOO and making the wizard your thrall after power word stun.
The wizard can't do this to the warlock because the warlock has enough hp that power word stun doesn't work.
At least this reduces the battle to whoever wins initiative, which most theoretical pvp boils down to anyways (including fighter vs wizard). The advantage is still with the wizard because of their option to use high level slots for counterspell and at least one option to improve initiative.
As far as counterspell goes I'm definitely in favor of not allowing either party to know what spell is being cast. This ruling evens the odds a bit, but I think it's still in wizard's favor.
It's not just counterspell. Globe of Invulnerability also totally destroys most of the warlock's stuff. And as others have pointed out, Invulnerability is amazing.
Sorry, I thought the wizard is casting invulnerability. So the plan is for the wizard to use their only 9th-level spell slot to cast globe of invulnerability? That still only works if the wizard wins initiative (which a war wizard is likely, but not assured, to do). I can hone my warlock build further, I've been thinking about it. Similar idea as before, go fiend-patron blade-pact warlock.
3 attacks (off-hand attack) give a reasonable chance for a hit even if the wizard shields.
On hit, Eldritch Smite for 6d8 (27) damage and use Hurl Through Hell for 10d10 (55) damage. Good luck with the concentration checks wizard.
Ready a casting of Power word kill for when the wizard gets back. Because this uses your reaction, you are still vulnerable to a counterspell. Without the wizard's level 9 slot, it won't be automatic success. They have to roll a DC 19 Int check.
I think a wizard employing an alpha strike strategy has a better chance of success. However, with Dark One's Own Luck able to help with a saving throw, I'm not sure how much damage could be done.
Again power word stun and power word kill are two spells that I would never take on a warlock. For the purposes of a "wizard-killer" warlock, I think they're probably necessary. A spell I would take however is true polymorph, but it's hard to figure out how polymorphing into an ancient brass dragon would change the equation.
So in other words, the only way a warlock beats a wizard is if the warlock is built specifically for the fight, which the wizard is not? That's pretty much admitting that the wizard is the stronger of the two.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So in other words, the only way a warlock beats a wizard is if the warlock is built specifically for the fight, which the wizard is not? That's pretty much admitting that the wizard is the stronger of the two.
Not necessarily. I'm not really opposed to the wizard being built for the fight, but I have much less knowledge about wizards than I do warlocks. If you look above, I agreed that the contest was heavily weighted toward wizard. The reason I'm posting these builds is that it seemed like there was a lot of dismissal toward the warlock.
The build I proposed isn't that far removed from something I would build for general play. Mostly it's only different in the choice of power word kill and power word stun for the arcanums (arcana). Building a dex bladelock out of a fiend-patron warlock isn't crazy.
Also note, I meant Invunerability as the main spell the Wizard casts. Globe is a good spell to throw up when you are running short of Counter spells.
As for Wizard being better, no. A wizard is a generalist. They can defeat anything, if they prepare properly and the other guy is not specialized against the wizard. But if they are not properly prepared, they lose. Catch a 7th level Wizard on the day he memorized Sending so he can get his Boat to come pick him up and you got a much better shot of killing him.
ALL the other spell casters are specialist .. even the Sorcerer.
Basically, Wizards win only if prepared.
Consider the following builds:
Army Killer: Invulnerability, + Mirage Arcana + Incendiary cloud. Mirage Arcana has to be cast early in the day to get the army in position to be wiped out.
The Invulnerability will help against the Warlock, but the Mirage Arcana is practically useless and the Incendiary cloud will not much at all.
Also note, I meant Invunerability as the main spell the Wizard casts. Globe is a good spell to throw up when you are running short of Counter spells.
As for Wizard being better, no. A wizard is a generalist. They can defeat anything, if they prepare properly and the other guy is not specialized against the wizard. But if they are not properly prepared, they lose. Catch a 7th level Wizard on the day he memorized Sending so he can get his Boat to come pick him up and you got a much better shot of killing him.
Not by much. Remember that a 7th level wizard is going to have 11-12 spells prepared, which gives them more than enough options to prep Sending without compromising their offensive or defensive potential. The previously mentioned sorcerer only knows 8 spells total at 7th level, for example. If he'd already cast Sending then he's at a disadvantage, but no more than any other spellcaster who's going into a fight with fewer than their maximum spell slots. Unlike the warlock, which learns precisely one spell each of 6th-9th level, the wizard can prep more spells than they have spell slots for of each of those levels to insure that they're not caught completely out of useful options. Unlike the way things worked in older editions of the game.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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If both were dropped in an arena, who would win in a fight?
Let's assume high elf wizard and half elf warlock. Both level 20, standard array (I'm using the assumptions Demo_N made in his wizard vs fighter post)
I think it depends on too much. I'd probably put my money on the wizard though.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
What's your opinion on this, buddy?
I think it would be whoever can get the other to low enough hit points to use Power Word: Kill on.
Pure Wizard vs Pure Warlock? No backup, no multi-classing?
Wizard has a big advantage in a one-on-one fight. The Warlock is more designed for longer draw out battle (several unlimited times spell abilities, plus the ability to regain slots after a short rest).
If the Warlock is focused on a build (Devil Sight + Darkness), then the Wizard might lose if he has no ability to counter it (like say the use of counter spells and the Globe of Invunerability)
I've been in a lot of Westmarch server duels in discord games. Wizard v Warlock pre 20 is heavily weighted towards the lock.
Their automatically upcast spells + constant eldritch blast pressure is a hard lump to get over.
for 20th level, I'd think the Wizard has the advantage, with things like wish, invulnerability, Portent, Convergent Future, Contingency, Time stop which warlock doesn't have. I think Warlocks are built for long battles, where when big spells are involved, things are going to end in 1 or 2 rounds.
Up-cast spells is a barely there. At almost all levels, it is at most 1 extra spell slot. At 20th (which we are talking about), it is a single extra 5th level slot. 1 extra 5th level slot is not meaningful to a 20th level caster, especially at the cost of a ton of lower level spells.
At 20th level it is a comparison of 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th level Wizard spell vs. no slots whatsoever but the exact same Number of Mystic Arcanaum. EXACTLY the same.
As for Eldritch Blast, the key to Warlocks low level power, wizards have a lot of other stuff. E.Blast is nice, but also tends to be predictable and counter-able for that very reason. A Wizard is likely to be casting Counter spell as a reaction every round, while the Warlock does jack shit with his reaction, because he HE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH SLOTS. He has 5 slots + 4 Arcanaum. Battle better be over in 5 rounds or he is out of everything. Wizard can take him if the battle goes too long
The high level Warlock gets an out of combat recharge at level 20, again focusing on his staying power over multiple combats. The Wizard that gets a Signature spell at 20th level which is very likely to include Counter spell, yet another free casting.
The real test would be what build they made. Which arcane tradition they got. The person that created a build designed to take down other magic users would likely win.
But if neither did that, again, I state that a Wizard has more staying power than the Warlock. Yes, the warlock gets one extra 5th level slot, but the wizard has more flexibility and is likely counter spelling (as 3rd level slot vs Eldritch Blast) everything the Warlock does for the first 5 rounds.
Actually, a level 20 Wizard has two 6th and 7th level spell slots.
As others have said, the Arcane Tradition and Warlock Patron make a big difference. Which means that an Abjurer flat out wins just about every time.
Also, regarding Power Word: Kill. Assuming both characters have 14 Constitution and lack any feats, magic items, or racial abilities that improve their HP and both have taken the flat boost instead of rolling at every level, the Warlock has 143 HP vs the Wizard's 122. One failed save vs Finger of Death or Disintegrate will drop the Warlock well below the PWK threshold. The Wizard will also drop below the threshold after a hard poke, unless of course it's an Abjurer with a magic shield that can absorb an extra 45 damage, resistance to spell damage, and advantage on saves vs spells.
Oh, and regardless of which Arcane Tradition the wizard went with, they can pop out enough castings of Counterspell to completely shut down all of the Warlock's spell slots while having plenty of juice left over.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You guys really think the Warlock would lose that hard? Dang, that's not good! I made this thread because I learned that a level 20 Wizard is confirmed to destroy a Fighter 90% of the time, and they're also straight up supereffective to Clerics as well (like Charizard is to Blastoise). Is there any single class that can take on the fear-inspiring Wizard 1-on-1?
The real problem is that Wizard is the most flexible of classes. They can change their spells every long rest, and should have quite a few. Not all Wizards will kill a Warlock - if they don't have Counterspell prepared, the Wizard is more likely to die.
The real way to kill a 20th level Wizard is to catch him by surprise and unprepared. Hidden, sneak attacking with poison is good. Any save except Intelligence or Wisdom will likely hurt them - but - Charisma or Strength saves are your best bet.
In addition, the Wizard in a party is not as likely to do the most damage. He spends most of his time making life difficult for the bad guys while the other players kill.
The real best way to kill a 20th level wizard is to not fight it one-on-one. Use disposable assets to force the wizard to use up spells and keep the pressure on to prevent them from resting.
Of course, you'll need to have some means of also preventing them from just Teleporting or Plane Shifting away.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So, any fight between a Warlock and anything else will have the Warlock Eldritch Blast-Hex spamming. It's really simple on how the Wizard wins the combat.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I think this contest is heavily weighted toward the wizard, but that doesn't mean that the wizard wins in all cases. I think a wizard-killer warlock could be made, but it would involve spell choices that I would never make when playing a warlock. This might work against a warlock-killer wizard that wasn't specifically built to counter this strategy.
The wizard can't do this to the warlock because the warlock has enough hp that power word stun doesn't work.
At least this reduces the battle to whoever wins initiative, which most theoretical pvp boils down to anyways (including fighter vs wizard). The advantage is still with the wizard because of their option to use high level slots for counterspell and at least one option to improve initiative.
As far as counterspell goes I'm definitely in favor of not allowing either party to know what spell is being cast. This ruling evens the odds a bit, but I think it's still in wizard's favor.
It's not just counterspell. Globe of Invulnerability also totally destroys most of the warlock's stuff. And as others have pointed out, Invulnerability is amazing.
Sorry, I thought the wizard is casting invulnerability. So the plan is for the wizard to use their only 9th-level spell slot to cast globe of invulnerability? That still only works if the wizard wins initiative (which a war wizard is likely, but not assured, to do). I can hone my warlock build further, I've been thinking about it. Similar idea as before, go fiend-patron blade-pact warlock.
I think a wizard employing an alpha strike strategy has a better chance of success. However, with Dark One's Own Luck able to help with a saving throw, I'm not sure how much damage could be done.
Again power word stun and power word kill are two spells that I would never take on a warlock. For the purposes of a "wizard-killer" warlock, I think they're probably necessary. A spell I would take however is true polymorph, but it's hard to figure out how polymorphing into an ancient brass dragon would change the equation.
So in other words, the only way a warlock beats a wizard is if the warlock is built specifically for the fight, which the wizard is not? That's pretty much admitting that the wizard is the stronger of the two.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Not necessarily. I'm not really opposed to the wizard being built for the fight, but I have much less knowledge about wizards than I do warlocks. If you look above, I agreed that the contest was heavily weighted toward wizard. The reason I'm posting these builds is that it seemed like there was a lot of dismissal toward the warlock.
The build I proposed isn't that far removed from something I would build for general play. Mostly it's only different in the choice of power word kill and power word stun for the arcanums (arcana). Building a dex bladelock out of a fiend-patron warlock isn't crazy.
Also note, I meant Invunerability as the main spell the Wizard casts. Globe is a good spell to throw up when you are running short of Counter spells.
As for Wizard being better, no. A wizard is a generalist. They can defeat anything, if they prepare properly and the other guy is not specialized against the wizard. But if they are not properly prepared, they lose. Catch a 7th level Wizard on the day he memorized Sending so he can get his Boat to come pick him up and you got a much better shot of killing him.
ALL the other spell casters are specialist .. even the Sorcerer.
Basically, Wizards win only if prepared.
Consider the following builds:
Army Killer: Invulnerability, + Mirage Arcana + Incendiary cloud. Mirage Arcana has to be cast early in the day to get the army in position to be wiped out.
The Invulnerability will help against the Warlock, but the Mirage Arcana is practically useless and the Incendiary cloud will not much at all.
Not by much. Remember that a 7th level wizard is going to have 11-12 spells prepared, which gives them more than enough options to prep Sending without compromising their offensive or defensive potential. The previously mentioned sorcerer only knows 8 spells total at 7th level, for example. If he'd already cast Sending then he's at a disadvantage, but no more than any other spellcaster who's going into a fight with fewer than their maximum spell slots. Unlike the warlock, which learns precisely one spell each of 6th-9th level, the wizard can prep more spells than they have spell slots for of each of those levels to insure that they're not caught completely out of useful options. Unlike the way things worked in older editions of the game.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.