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Im asking, should it be converted to being a wizard spell as well as being a warlock spell, or should it remain exclusive to the warlock class spell list? opinions
there are a few ways you could handle it, the aforementioned multi-class or feat to get it as a Cha based cantrip. But he easiest way would be to research it. Wizards can research their own version of spells so no reason why you couldn't give it to a wizard as a spell they saw being cast and then tinkered Magic Missile into creating their own INT based eldritch blast cantrip.
Another option and probably the one I am more inclined to implement would be Wizards form lvl 2 onewards can learn any spell of their chosen school of magic regardless of which class list it is on, so Evocation specialists can learn any evocation spell even if it is on the druid or cleric list etc. Blade Singers could learn any spell capable of augmenting a weapon and War Wizards any spell that deals force damage. After all Wizards from level 2 are supposed ot be specialist casters in one school of magic it seems a shame some of those spells are off limits to them.
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Absolutely not. Wizards do not need to add something that's traditionally been a Warlock class feature to their spell list. In fact, if I were DMing, I would house rule that EB scaled off your warlock levels rather than your character levels to prevent some of the ridiculous shenanigans that you can see from a couple levels of warlock.
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I think if they do, they should at least nerf it a little maybe to a d6 just because since it's made for warlocks. The 2 eldritch blast shots at 5th level would be taken away, and just replaced with 2d6s in my opinion.
Why bother? Without Invocations or Hex to buff it, EB is little different from Firebolt or Ray of Frost. As a wizard levels, they rely more and more on things like Fireball or Bigby's Hand, not cantrips.
At best, you get a rarely resisted damage type. I personally like how wizards take a Swiss army knife approach and rely on spell variety instead of one spell fits all, kind of wizard's thing.
So, adding EB adds nothing interesting to the game, while simultaneously undermines wizard flavor a shade, imho.
True that just reinforces wotc's reluctance to make the class more than just an evocation focused, and instead of a "I've got the right tools for the job that ISN'T fireball" kind of class.
Absolutely not. Wizards do not need to add something that's traditionally been a Warlock class feature to their spell list. In fact, if I were DMing, I would house rule that EB scaled off your warlock levels rather than your character levels to prevent some of the ridiculous shenanigans that you can see from a couple levels of warlock.
Agree wholeheartedly with the first part.
Not sure if it would be necessary to link to warlock levels though. Getting it through magic initiate feat would be useless if you then didn’t multiclass.
The problem is the warlock 2 level dip. EB should have been a class feature, not a cantrip that's dippable by all. Frankly I don't mind at all if it's useless through magic initiate. Take firebolt or ray of frost instead.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Basic question, I want opinions, Should wizards have access to Eldritch Blast as a Wizard/INT based cantrip?
Absolutely not. Wizards have the largest spell list in the game, and thanks to Arcane Recovery, and Spell Mastery and Signature Spells, they are the most prolific spellcasters in 5e. Warlocks got none of that, and they have to take several naps every day to cast even a fraction of the number of spells a Wiz can cast.
Why bother? Without Invocations or Hex to buff it, EB is little different from Firebolt or Ray of Frost. As a wizard levels, they rely more and more on things like Fireball or Bigby's Hand, not cantrips.
At best, you get a rarely resisted damage type. I personally like how wizards take a Swiss army knife approach and rely on spell variety instead of one spell fits all, kind of wizard's thing.
So, adding EB adds nothing interesting to the game, while simultaneously undermines wizard flavor a shade, imho.
You underestimate how powerful EB really is. Not one single creature in all of 5e has resistance to force damage:
Fire Bolt is an all or nothing spell with a single die roll, and can only force a single concentration check per use. Eldritch Blast gives you up to four chances to at least do something, can force up to four concentration checks, and can target up to four creatures at a time.
Eldritch Blast is the single most powerful damage cantrip in 5e.
Basic question, I want opinions, Should wizards have access to Eldritch Blast as a Wizard/INT based cantrip?
Absolutely not. Wizards have the largest spell list in the game, and thanks to Arcane Recovery, and Spell Mastery and Signature Spells, they are the most prolific spellcasters in 5e. Warlocks got none of that, and they have to take several naps every day to cast even a fraction of the number of spells a Wiz can cast.
Why bother? Without Invocations or Hex to buff it, EB is little different from Firebolt or Ray of Frost. As a wizard levels, they rely more and more on things like Fireball or Bigby's Hand, not cantrips.
At best, you get a rarely resisted damage type. I personally like how wizards take a Swiss army knife approach and rely on spell variety instead of one spell fits all, kind of wizard's thing.
So, adding EB adds nothing interesting to the game, while simultaneously undermines wizard flavor a shade, imho.
You underestimate how powerful EB really is. Not one single creature in all of 5e has resistance to force damage:
Fire Bolt is an all or nothing spell with a single die roll, and can only force a single concentration check per use. Eldritch Blast gives you up to four chances to at least do something, can force up to four concentration checks, and can target up to four creatures at a time.
Eldritch Blast is the single most powerful damage cantrip in 5e.
Every bit of this is correct. It saddens me how the strongest class in the game, still has people grasping for more.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Basic question, I want opinions, Should wizards have access to Eldritch Blast as a Wizard/INT based cantrip?
No. Each class has some spells that are unique to them, which I think is a good thing. Plus, part of the reason Warlocks get such a powerful cantrip that can be enhanced several different ways with Invocations is because they're more limited with their leveled spellcasting. Wizards already have an impressive array of spell choices and spellcasting features, giving them access to Eldritch Blast might not "break" the game, but it's certainly not needed by any stretch.
At the risk of sounding like a Heath Ledger/Joker meme:
Bards can poach spells from other classes through their magical secrets, Clerics can access other casters spells through their domains as can Circle of the Land Druids, Warlocks gain spells from multiple lists through their patrons, anyone playing the Ravnica setting can get extra spells through their guild affiliation and you can use multi-classing and feats to gain spells from other caster lists and everyone seems to be "yeah, thats fine" but a wizard wants to research and create their own version of another casters spell list and suddenly.........(I can't bring myself to complete the meme).
If you are happy for some one playig a wizard to pay a tax in the form of multi-classing or feat acquisition to gain a spell, why would you be against them paying a tax in the form of in game time, money, resources and research to create a spell?
I cannot see it breaks the game (and I see a few names on this thread that are also on a thread about wizards and restorative/healing magic so this is applies there as well), it adds a aspect to their progression, gives them ingame bragging rights (a look what I created moment), it plays into the mythos around wizardly hubris/always wanting to know more/have more magic (see the forgotten realms Netherese), it may just allow a player to express themselves in ways which do not require some justification of having a particularly ability score of 13+ just so they can take a dip into another class (and really anyone taking a dip into another spellcasting class should have a good reason to do so), Eldritch Blast is a tad out of place in the warlock repetoire as they don't get any other spells that revolve around force damage and their other "classic" spell is hex which deals Necrotic damage.
You underestimate how powerful EB really is. Not one single creature in all of 5e has resistance to force damage:
Yeah, and in the case of fire resistance, the wizard should swap to a different cantrip. I said that already. That's part of the playstyle of the wizard - right spell for right situation. The damage difference isn't a huge deal, non-EB cantrips have secondary effects that can be relevant to fights.
Eldritch Blast doesn't actually make the wizard that much stronger, and makes it a bit more boring by undermining playstyle.
Fire Bolt is an all or nothing spell with a single die roll, and can only force a single concentration check per use. Eldritch Blast gives you up to four chances to at least do something, can force up to four concentration checks, and can target up to four creatures at a time.
And how often do people really spread out damage? In my experience, you focus fire until one goes down, and, with an cantrip, the amount of bleed over isn't a huge loss. Especially at level 18, where wizards can cast Magic Missile, have a zero miss chance, and force just as many concentration checks on an enemy; get a Wand of Magic Missiles or slot it into Spell Mastery if you're worried about spell slots. Or, you know, cast Banish, Hold Person, or Flesh to Stone, depending on what type of caster we're looking at (target weak save, yo). Who needs concentration checks when you could just take the enemy out of the game with a single spell?
With a warlock, its different. You have Hex, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, and more to support casting Eldritch Blast. The playstyle of the warlock is designed to make the most out of E.B. Wizards use a different playstyle that doesn't rely on cantrips as they grow in power. They rely on fitting the right spell to the right situation. You face something with resistance, you swap to a similar but non-resisted spell. Facing a tricky enemy? Target weak save with appropriate spells.
"But Shield exists!! So magic missile is worse!" Of the six full caster classes, only two get shield, and that doesn't count monsters that can cast magic without being a full caster like a lich. Shield is rare. And, in the case the enemy does have shield? That's going to make it super hard to land E.B. as well. Better for a wizard player to use a different spell in the first place.
Armchair white room theorycraft doesn't exactly hold up without actual play experiences to back it up. If you have to base your argument for a cantrip around being level 17, and ignore opportunity costs and magic items.... Eldritch blast might be the most powerful cantrip, but not in a way that really matters to the wizard.
Out of everything said, that's the only thing you comment on? Your experience with level 17 wizards is that they're routinely in need of casting strong cantrips that avoid types? Or that low level wizards routinely run into fire resistance without backup cantrips? You'll excuse me if I doubt that.
Out of everything said, that's the only thing you comment on? Your experience with level 17 wizards is that they're routinely in need of casting strong cantrips that avoid types? You'll excuse me if I doubt that.
No. You misunderstood me. My experience in 5e is that Warlocks need the exclusive, powerful cantrip. Wizards do not.
If you are happy for some one playig a wizard to pay a tax in the form of multi-classing or feat acquisition to gain a spell, why would you be against them paying a tax in the form of in game time, money, resources and research to create a spell?
personally I don’t find that much of a “tax”. Maybe it’s just me or how our table handled things in the past but spending some money and collecting resources and time researching (which in my experience a lot happens in down time out of the game unless the DM makes an adventure out of the process) isn’t quite the same “tax” as using a precious resource like an ASI or hampering spell progression to take a dip or feat. so basically the DM could say (and not saying this is how your DM would do it) “ ok, since our last gaming session, 6 months have past in game. Pay 5,000 gold and you spent that time researching. You now have Eldritch Blast” something like this doesn’t seem like much of a tax
And if the UA Feats are an indication of how WotC goes forward there may be less reason to dip and more incentive to take a feat to customize your character.
If you are happy for some one playig a wizard to pay a tax in the form of multi-classing or feat acquisition to gain a spell, why would you be against them paying a tax in the form of in game time, money, resources and research to create a spell?
personally I don’t find that much of a “tax”. Maybe it’s just me or how our table handled things in the past but spending some money and collecting resources and time researching (which in my experience a lot happens in down time out of the game unless the DM makes an adventure out of the process) isn’t quite the same “tax” as using a precious resource like an ASI or hampering spell progression to take a dip or feat. so basically the DM could say (and not saying this is how your DM would do it) “ ok, since our last gaming session, 6 months have past in game. Pay 5,000 gold and you spent that time researching. You now have Eldritch Blast” something like this doesn’t seem like much of a tax
And if the UA Feats are an indication of how WotC goes forward there may be less reason to dip and more incentive to take a feat to customize your character.
Well as the DM for my group I set up some bits and pieces for both researching spells and getting spells to become permament or at will, without going into all the nitty gritty for it, the base time to research a new spell was (level +1) x (level +1) + (level +1) in months of research, so to research a cantrip would be 3 months, a level 1 spell 6 months etc, and after each month a ability check would be required with a failure adding more time and cost to the research, crtical fails meaning the research had to be started over, crit successes reducing the time. There was more to it than than but thats the basic calculation for time.
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* Need a character idea? Search for "Rob76's Unused" in the Story and Lore section.
Basic question, I want opinions, Should wizards have access to Eldritch Blast as a Wizard/INT based cantrip?
Not normally, but they can get it through a feat or multiclassing, maybe some other ways?
Im asking, should it be converted to being a wizard spell as well as being a warlock spell, or should it remain exclusive to the warlock class spell list? opinions
there are a few ways you could handle it, the aforementioned multi-class or feat to get it as a Cha based cantrip. But he easiest way would be to research it. Wizards can research their own version of spells so no reason why you couldn't give it to a wizard as a spell they saw being cast and then tinkered Magic Missile into creating their own INT based eldritch blast cantrip.
Another option and probably the one I am more inclined to implement would be Wizards form lvl 2 onewards can learn any spell of their chosen school of magic regardless of which class list it is on, so Evocation specialists can learn any evocation spell even if it is on the druid or cleric list etc. Blade Singers could learn any spell capable of augmenting a weapon and War Wizards any spell that deals force damage. After all Wizards from level 2 are supposed ot be specialist casters in one school of magic it seems a shame some of those spells are off limits to them.
Absolutely not. Wizards do not need to add something that's traditionally been a Warlock class feature to their spell list. In fact, if I were DMing, I would house rule that EB scaled off your warlock levels rather than your character levels to prevent some of the ridiculous shenanigans that you can see from a couple levels of warlock.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I think if they do, they should at least nerf it a little maybe to a d6 just because since it's made for warlocks. The 2 eldritch blast shots at 5th level would be taken away, and just replaced with 2d6s in my opinion.
Why bother? Without Invocations or Hex to buff it, EB is little different from Firebolt or Ray of Frost. As a wizard levels, they rely more and more on things like Fireball or Bigby's Hand, not cantrips.
At best, you get a rarely resisted damage type. I personally like how wizards take a Swiss army knife approach and rely on spell variety instead of one spell fits all, kind of wizard's thing.
So, adding EB adds nothing interesting to the game, while simultaneously undermines wizard flavor a shade, imho.
True that just reinforces wotc's reluctance to make the class more than just an evocation focused, and instead of a "I've got the right tools for the job that ISN'T fireball" kind of class.
Agree wholeheartedly with the first part.
Not sure if it would be necessary to link to warlock levels though. Getting it through magic initiate feat would be useless if you then didn’t multiclass.
leave it to warlocks only
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The problem is the warlock 2 level dip. EB should have been a class feature, not a cantrip that's dippable by all. Frankly I don't mind at all if it's useless through magic initiate. Take firebolt or ray of frost instead.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Absolutely not. Wizards have the largest spell list in the game, and thanks to Arcane Recovery, and Spell Mastery and Signature Spells, they are the most prolific spellcasters in 5e. Warlocks got none of that, and they have to take several naps every day to cast even a fraction of the number of spells a Wiz can cast.
You underestimate how powerful EB really is. Not one single creature in all of 5e has resistance to force damage:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-is-mythic=&filter-has-lair=&filter-resistance=47&filter-partnered-content=f
Only 3 have immunity to force damage, and only one of them is not from a specific adventure:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-is-mythic=&filter-has-lair=&filter-damage-immunity=48&filter-partnered-content=f
Fire damage is the most resisted/immune damage type in the game:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-is-mythic=&filter-has-lair=&filter-resistance=9&filter-partnered-content=f
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-is-mythic=&filter-has-lair=&filter-damage-immunity=25&filter-partnered-content=f
Fire Bolt is an all or nothing spell with a single die roll, and can only force a single concentration check per use. Eldritch Blast gives you up to four chances to at least do something, can force up to four concentration checks, and can target up to four creatures at a time.
Eldritch Blast is the single most powerful damage cantrip in 5e.
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Every bit of this is correct. It saddens me how the strongest class in the game, still has people grasping for more.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
No. Each class has some spells that are unique to them, which I think is a good thing. Plus, part of the reason Warlocks get such a powerful cantrip that can be enhanced several different ways with Invocations is because they're more limited with their leveled spellcasting. Wizards already have an impressive array of spell choices and spellcasting features, giving them access to Eldritch Blast might not "break" the game, but it's certainly not needed by any stretch.
At the risk of sounding like a Heath Ledger/Joker meme:
Bards can poach spells from other classes through their magical secrets, Clerics can access other casters spells through their domains as can Circle of the Land Druids, Warlocks gain spells from multiple lists through their patrons, anyone playing the Ravnica setting can get extra spells through their guild affiliation and you can use multi-classing and feats to gain spells from other caster lists and everyone seems to be "yeah, thats fine" but a wizard wants to research and create their own version of another casters spell list and suddenly.........(I can't bring myself to complete the meme).
If you are happy for some one playig a wizard to pay a tax in the form of multi-classing or feat acquisition to gain a spell, why would you be against them paying a tax in the form of in game time, money, resources and research to create a spell?
I cannot see it breaks the game (and I see a few names on this thread that are also on a thread about wizards and restorative/healing magic so this is applies there as well), it adds a aspect to their progression, gives them ingame bragging rights (a look what I created moment), it plays into the mythos around wizardly hubris/always wanting to know more/have more magic (see the forgotten realms Netherese), it may just allow a player to express themselves in ways which do not require some justification of having a particularly ability score of 13+ just so they can take a dip into another class (and really anyone taking a dip into another spellcasting class should have a good reason to do so), Eldritch Blast is a tad out of place in the warlock repetoire as they don't get any other spells that revolve around force damage and their other "classic" spell is hex which deals Necrotic damage.
Yeah, and in the case of fire resistance, the wizard should swap to a different cantrip. I said that already. That's part of the playstyle of the wizard - right spell for right situation. The damage difference isn't a huge deal, non-EB cantrips have secondary effects that can be relevant to fights.
Eldritch Blast doesn't actually make the wizard that much stronger, and makes it a bit more boring by undermining playstyle.
And how often do people really spread out damage? In my experience, you focus fire until one goes down, and, with an cantrip, the amount of bleed over isn't a huge loss. Especially at level 18, where wizards can cast Magic Missile, have a zero miss chance, and force just as many concentration checks on an enemy; get a Wand of Magic Missiles or slot it into Spell Mastery if you're worried about spell slots. Or, you know, cast Banish, Hold Person, or Flesh to Stone, depending on what type of caster we're looking at (target weak save, yo). Who needs concentration checks when you could just take the enemy out of the game with a single spell?
With a warlock, its different. You have Hex, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, and more to support casting Eldritch Blast. The playstyle of the warlock is designed to make the most out of E.B. Wizards use a different playstyle that doesn't rely on cantrips as they grow in power. They rely on fitting the right spell to the right situation. You face something with resistance, you swap to a similar but non-resisted spell. Facing a tricky enemy? Target weak save with appropriate spells.
"But Shield exists!! So magic missile is worse!" Of the six full caster classes, only two get shield, and that doesn't count monsters that can cast magic without being a full caster like a lich. Shield is rare. And, in the case the enemy does have shield? That's going to make it super hard to land E.B. as well. Better for a wizard player to use a different spell in the first place.
Armchair white room theorycraft doesn't exactly hold up without actual play experiences to back it up. If you have to base your argument for a cantrip around being level 17, and ignore opportunity costs and magic items.... Eldritch blast might be the most powerful cantrip, but not in a way that really matters to the wizard.
Exactly. I speak from experience.
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Out of everything said, that's the only thing you comment on? Your experience with level 17 wizards is that they're routinely in need of casting strong cantrips that avoid types? Or that low level wizards routinely run into fire resistance without backup cantrips? You'll excuse me if I doubt that.
No. You misunderstood me. My experience in 5e is that Warlocks need the exclusive, powerful cantrip. Wizards do not.
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personally I don’t find that much of a “tax”. Maybe it’s just me or how our table handled things in the past but spending some money and collecting resources and time researching (which in my experience a lot happens in down time out of the game unless the DM makes an adventure out of the process) isn’t quite the same “tax” as using a precious resource like an ASI or hampering spell progression to take a dip or feat.
so basically the DM could say (and not saying this is how your DM would do it) “ ok, since our last gaming session, 6 months have past in game. Pay 5,000 gold and you spent that time researching. You now have Eldritch Blast” something like this doesn’t seem like much of a tax
And if the UA Feats are an indication of how WotC goes forward there may be less reason to dip and more incentive to take a feat to customize your character.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Well as the DM for my group I set up some bits and pieces for both researching spells and getting spells to become permament or at will, without going into all the nitty gritty for it, the base time to research a new spell was (level +1) x (level +1) + (level +1) in months of research, so to research a cantrip would be 3 months, a level 1 spell 6 months etc, and after each month a ability check would be required with a failure adding more time and cost to the research, crtical fails meaning the research had to be started over, crit successes reducing the time. There was more to it than than but thats the basic calculation for time.