The old books is years older. It's unlikely that a more comprehensive sourcebook wasn't planned at the time. So I'm not sure why you feel as though you were deceived. If you have the old book, don't buy the new book unless you want it, that's pretty simple.
At a glance, it looks like the lore is complimentary, additional, or simply reprint. I mean, they're a company and they're in the business of making and selling printed and electronic books. If I wasn't keeping my collection complete and current, I wouldn't buy the new book either, but I am, so I did.
I would be happy if Wizards or DDB gave me a discounted or free copy of the new edition, since there's overlap but uh, they have no obligations to do so. They aren't screwing over customers by not doing so either.
So your stance is essentially "we should not be unhappy because they are greedy and we should expect them to view as as wallets rather than valued customers and fans of dnd."
Also purchasing on DDB means that if I want to have the updates I have to also purchase what I already have as it is not separate from the updates...and we should just let them start this terrible trend. Imagine if when they add the new subclasses from playtest to official they sell a players handbook II in which most of the content was what was in PB I and priced as such when the additional content was maybe worth half of that by comparison to prior work...what you are arguing essentially is that that is perfectly fine and we should just take it.
The old books is years older. It's unlikely that a more comprehensive sourcebook wasn't planned at the time. So I'm not sure why you feel as though you were deceived. If you have the old book, don't buy the new book unless you want it, that's pretty simple.
At a glance, it looks like the lore is complimentary, additional, or simply reprint. I mean, they're a company and they're in the business of making and selling printed and electronic books. If I wasn't keeping my collection complete and current, I wouldn't buy the new book either, but I am, so I did.
I would be happy if Wizards or DDB gave me a discounted or free copy of the new edition, since there's overlap but uh, they have no obligations to do so. They aren't screwing over customers by not doing so either.
I think people expected overlap between Wayfinder's and Rising. They didn't expect the Venn diagram of the books to be essentially two concentric circles (with I guess a sliver of lore hanging out). That goes beyond overlap. People aren't being unreasonable in thinking that Wayfinder's was just a way for WotC to get people to pay to playtest for them.
If I was to buy the new Eberron content new, I would get 79 new DnD Beyond content options. If I buy having already purchased Wayfinder's Guide, I get 57 new content options. 22 of these content options are duplicates.
Just under 28% (27.8%) of the content is 'duplicated'. More than a quarter. It's hard not to feel Wizard of the Coasts greed growing as the popularity of D&D grows.
Wait wait wait... Am I following this thread right that people who bought Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron won't get the full Artificer options?
That's... alarming. And I don't even have the original Artificer options in my D&D Beyond app or the web browser character creation anymore. This is upsetting.
Wait wait wait... Am I following this thread right that people who bought Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron won't get the full Artificer options?
That's... alarming. And I don't even have the original Artificer options in my D&D Beyond app or the web browser character creation anymore. This is upsetting.
People who bought Wayfinder's Guide will get the following:
Updates to the latest versions of the Warforged, Changeling and Shifter Races
I guess one thing I did learn from all of this, if there is a UA or anything else that is playtest make a character for that content and keep it. At least that way you can always go back and copy that character if you want to make a character using that content after it's changed/removed. I'm really glad I had made Wayfinder's characters with the original specs. I don't care of the new warforged much, the original was so much more flavorful and varied.
I would point out that, though Wizards' whole business plan here has been shifty as hell and is absolutely an argument against ever purchasing "Living Document" content again...
...the UA Shifter, Changeling, Kalashtar, and Warforged races were enormously overloaded, with several times the capability of even the most heavily laden PHB races. You could make three or four dragonborn's worth of abilities out of even the weakest of the UA races, to the point where I had trouble justifying either the existence of an Eberron race outside that setting, or the existence of any other race within it.
I'd argue that this should've been the pattern from the start, with one's species providing benefits actually worth considering as an adventurer beyond stat boosts, but man. Changelings and warforged especially were ludicrously overloaded compared to anything else in the game.
I would point out that, though Wizards' whole business plan here has been shifty as hell and is absolutely an argument against ever purchasing "Living Document" content again...
...the UA Shifter, Changeling, Kalashtar, and Warforged races were enormously overloaded, with several times the capability of even the most heavily laden PHB races. You could make three or four dragonborn's worth of abilities out of even the weakest of the UA races, to the point where I had trouble justifying either the existence of an Eberron race outside that setting, or the existence of any other race within it.
I'd argue that this should've been the pattern from the start, with one's species providing benefits actually worth considering as an adventurer beyond stat boosts, but man. Changelings and warforged especially were ludicrously overloaded compared to anything else in the game.
A reminder, because some people seem either unaware of this or willfully misremembering it, but the Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron was not sold to me and a number of other people as a Playtest or Living Document. It was sold as a a full real product. Only after myself, and a number of people, bought the book did we find out that it was supposed to be Playtest and Living Document. After the initial people bought it, and complained about this. Was it then later marked as a Playtest book that was a Living Document.
Even then people were extremely upset about WotC, through Beyond and other sources, actually having the gall to sell a "playtest" document. Especially through such underhanded and deceptive means.
So yes quite a few people who own the book knew it was a playtest document subject to change when they bought it, but not all of us. Remember WotC has lied to us and gone back on their word quite a lot since the start of this edition.
Now I don't want to blame the Beyond staff, they have to do what WotC tells them. But I am just again disappointed in WotC.
At least it sounds like they are working on updating the Artificer so those of us who bought Wayfinder will have access to it, though it sounds like we still have to rebuy the subclasses.
That said at the moment when I check the Marketplace for Last War it says I get a 3 dollar discount for already owned material, even though I already own Wayfinder and the subrace section of Last War that is unlocked for me is supposedly 9.99. It seems like once they finish updating stuff I feel like those of us who own Wayfinder should be getting a much much bigger discount than 3 dollars. Twenty bucks or so sounds about right, but certainly no less than 9 dollars.
I have feeling we are about to have an Ebberon Fork with Project Raptor coming out soon.
At most ERftLW is an introduction to those new to Ebberon like myself. I don't think you need to purchase the new book. At least not the entire thing. You aren't missing much besides the monsters. That said its a good book for newcomers. I've read what I could of the older books.
From the sound of it the races and dragonmarked houses will be updated in time. You aren't missing much with the Patron rules.
I guess one thing I did learn from all of this, if there is a UA or anything else that is playtest make a character for that content and keep it. At least that way you can always go back and copy that character if you want to make a character using that content after it's changed/removed. I'm really glad I had made Wayfinder's characters with the original specs. I don't care of the new warforged much, the original was so much more flavorful and varied.
They need more race specific feats now that Ebberon's been released with a slew of new races
Wait wait wait... Am I following this thread right that people who bought Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron won't get the full Artificer options?
That's... alarming. And I don't even have the original Artificer options in my D&D Beyond app or the web browser character creation anymore. This is upsetting.
People who bought Wayfinder's Guide will get the following:
Updates to the latest versions of the Warforged, Changeling and Shifter Races
The artificer subclass
The alchemist subclass for the artificer.
If the Alchemist Subclass is free, why are they selling it? You didn't have to buy the Free options from the Basic Rules, ya know, cause they were actually free.
Wait wait wait... Am I following this thread right that people who bought Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron won't get the full Artificer options?
That's... alarming. And I don't even have the original Artificer options in my D&D Beyond app or the web browser character creation anymore. This is upsetting.
People who bought Wayfinder's Guide will get the following:
Updates to the latest versions of the Warforged, Changeling and Shifter Races
The artificer subclass
The alchemist subclass for the artificer.
If the Alchemist Subclass is free, why are they selling it? You didn't have to buy the Free options from the Basic Rules, ya know, cause they were actually free.
Where has anyone said the alchemist Subclass is free? From the beginning, WOTC said that the alchemist would be added to Wayfinder's Guide when it was finished. I do think it was a poor decision on WOTC's part to only include one subclass in Wayfinders. Technically they didn't go back on their word, as they didn't specify a number of subclasses, but it does seem rather questionable to me. And that's coming from somebody who has usually been o.k. with WOTC's choices.
I'm sorry folks feel like they have been misled. I'm a bit mystified by that, to be honest, because I've know from the moment it was released that Wayfinder's was playtest, that the mechanics would be updated to final forms, and that if a hardcover was published it would include at least the mechanical bits from Wayfinders. But I follow the forums both here and on enworld pretty closely. Reading through this thread I've tried to remind myself that not everyone follows the news as closely as I do.
A few other things I'll reiterate from posts higher up on the thread, because I know not everyone reads all the posts in a long thread.
-at least here, you can purchase individually; you could choose just to buy the mechanical bits in Rising that aren't in Wayfinders.
-For those of you who'd like to see the earlier iterations of races, etc., included, you can homebrew them for use here
None of that may change how you feel about the release of Rising, and that's o.k. You are have a right to your feelings, and you have every right to decide how to spend--or not spend--you money in response to those feelings.
Not blaiming DDB staff here, Though I agree with how upset a lot of us who have purchased both books are feeling. I'm not going to be purchasing another "Living Document" digital book from WotC again. For me it goes beyond the nerfing of the warforged, as well as deleting their subraces (thusly removing their uniqueness), but also removing The Greater Dragonmark Feat, something that gave more character to those that wanted to add more distinction to their Dragonmarked characters... (keep in mind, I'm writing this as a DM and not a player).
To go further, sofar scanning through both books, side by side, I see a lot of chapters / sections where they are almost copied with perhaps a seperate title, and only a paragraph added to the new book. I'm seeing less, and less value in Wayfinders... as I continue to read...
To quote Mike Mearls from about Wayfinders when it was first released...
"This is 100% official content for Eberron. Since it is an ebook, that also means we can update content with comments based on UA playtests of the races and the artificer. If we do an Eberron print product, we will design it to complement as much as possible what the PDF presents."
in a comment on the same tweet he added:
"Some things, like the artificer, races, and basic world info, will be picked up for a print book, but we want fans to be happy owning both."
So far this fan isn't so happy, since I took Mike's comment as it was both official content, and that it would complment future books...
I'm not so much as upset as I am disappointed in WotC... Having that much overlap I could have easily gone back to the 3.5 Eberron books and save myself the $19.
Having said that I have purchased the new book both on DDB and hardback.
so.. if i already own the Wayfinder, i can get everything in "Eberron: Rising from the Last War" by purchasing below options?: - Subclasses $2.99, Magic Items $3.99, Monsters $7.99, Race - Orc of Eberron $1.99
so.. if i already own the Wayfinder, i can get everything in "Eberron: Rising from the Last War" by purchasing below options?: - Subclasses $2.99, Magic Items $3.99, Monsters $7.99, Race - Orc of Eberron $1.99
I haven’t looked carefully at the character options in both. But, yes, if you are just interested in mechanics, not lore and fluff, you only need to purchase those individual items in wayfinders. If you don’t already have Volos, you would need the goblinoid player races if you want to use them.
There is some new/additional lore in Rising, but there is a lot more lore/fluff carry over from Wayfinders than I was expecting based on Mearls’ comments when Wayfinders was released. I’m disappointed with WOTC in that regard, I expected better. And I have no quarrel with those who are angry with them about that issue. I think it would be great if WOTC would do the right thing and find a way to offer folks who bought Wayfinders pre rising a discount on Rising. Since all wayfinders purchasers happened electronically and only on two platforms, I would hope that would be viable.
I purchased the WGtE when it came out. Since then I have tracked down all the other earlier edition sources books. I did not need the source material from the new book. I pre-ordered it for the Artificer (Battle Smith). I could have waited and just purchased that separately. In after sight this is what I should have done. I wiuld have saved my money. From what we were told,, all that was supposed to be added to the WGtE was the Artificer to make it complete. They said some material might be updated. Nothing was said about the wholesale butchering of the material I paid for. The Warforged and changeling I grew to love are gone.Am I upset; definitely yes. More, the players in my Eberron campaigns are upset. No, we did not lose those character we already had, but the ability to use and/or change stuff with that older material, that we PAID for, was stolen from us.
This is not DDB's fault they have to follow WotC's line or potentially lose their license for D&D. This put the blame squarely on the shoulder's of WotC. In my opinion, they are culpable of Bait & Switch tactics, theft, and blackmail. I am hoping some lawuyer types see this and look into it. As this is not aimed at DDB, I do not expect this post to be deleted by them, but since WotC has proven themselves capable of criminal activity, they may force DDB to take actions.
I don't know how many people bought WGtE, but when you total the some of those sales the amount may become notable, even to WotC.
What they did with the Artificer is well with their rights unfortunately. It was always UA playtest material, but the material in the original WGtE was ours, bought and paid for. It should never have been taken away without at, the very least, showing that material's OWNERS what the proposed to give us instead and allowing us the RIGHT to say no. As it is, from what little I could find and understand legally they are in the wrong and should be helf accountable.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
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So your stance is essentially "we should not be unhappy because they are greedy and we should expect them to view as as wallets rather than valued customers and fans of dnd."
Also purchasing on DDB means that if I want to have the updates I have to also purchase what I already have as it is not separate from the updates...and we should just let them start this terrible trend. Imagine if when they add the new subclasses from playtest to official they sell a players handbook II in which most of the content was what was in PB I and priced as such when the additional content was maybe worth half of that by comparison to prior work...what you are arguing essentially is that that is perfectly fine and we should just take it.
I think people expected overlap between Wayfinder's and Rising. They didn't expect the Venn diagram of the books to be essentially two concentric circles (with I guess a sliver of lore hanging out). That goes beyond overlap. People aren't being unreasonable in thinking that Wayfinder's was just a way for WotC to get people to pay to playtest for them.
If I was to buy the new Eberron content new, I would get 79 new DnD Beyond content options. If I buy having already purchased Wayfinder's Guide, I get 57 new content options. 22 of these content options are duplicates.
Just under 28% (27.8%) of the content is 'duplicated'. More than a quarter. It's hard not to feel Wizard of the Coasts greed growing as the popularity of D&D grows.
Well... they show unlocked, but the options are gone now...
Wait wait wait... Am I following this thread right that people who bought Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron won't get the full Artificer options?
That's... alarming. And I don't even have the original Artificer options in my D&D Beyond app or the web browser character creation anymore. This is upsetting.
People who bought Wayfinder's Guide will get the following:
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
At least I have my pdf copy of WGtE, so I can create the races from that and ignore the crappy versions they are forcing on us now.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Please share if you do as I would like access to them again.
I guess one thing I did learn from all of this, if there is a UA or anything else that is playtest make a character for that content and keep it. At least that way you can always go back and copy that character if you want to make a character using that content after it's changed/removed. I'm really glad I had made Wayfinder's characters with the original specs. I don't care of the new warforged much, the original was so much more flavorful and varied.
I would point out that, though Wizards' whole business plan here has been shifty as hell and is absolutely an argument against ever purchasing "Living Document" content again...
...the UA Shifter, Changeling, Kalashtar, and Warforged races were enormously overloaded, with several times the capability of even the most heavily laden PHB races. You could make three or four dragonborn's worth of abilities out of even the weakest of the UA races, to the point where I had trouble justifying either the existence of an Eberron race outside that setting, or the existence of any other race within it.
I'd argue that this should've been the pattern from the start, with one's species providing benefits actually worth considering as an adventurer beyond stat boosts, but man. Changelings and warforged especially were ludicrously overloaded compared to anything else in the game.
Please do not contact or message me.
Quoted for Truth
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
A reminder, because some people seem either unaware of this or willfully misremembering it, but the Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron was not sold to me and a number of other people as a Playtest or Living Document. It was sold as a a full real product. Only after myself, and a number of people, bought the book did we find out that it was supposed to be Playtest and Living Document. After the initial people bought it, and complained about this. Was it then later marked as a Playtest book that was a Living Document.
Even then people were extremely upset about WotC, through Beyond and other sources, actually having the gall to sell a "playtest" document. Especially through such underhanded and deceptive means.
So yes quite a few people who own the book knew it was a playtest document subject to change when they bought it, but not all of us. Remember WotC has lied to us and gone back on their word quite a lot since the start of this edition.
Now I don't want to blame the Beyond staff, they have to do what WotC tells them. But I am just again disappointed in WotC.
At least it sounds like they are working on updating the Artificer so those of us who bought Wayfinder will have access to it, though it sounds like we still have to rebuy the subclasses.
That said at the moment when I check the Marketplace for Last War it says I get a 3 dollar discount for already owned material, even though I already own Wayfinder and the subrace section of Last War that is unlocked for me is supposedly 9.99. It seems like once they finish updating stuff I feel like those of us who own Wayfinder should be getting a much much bigger discount than 3 dollars. Twenty bucks or so sounds about right, but certainly no less than 9 dollars.
I have feeling we are about to have an Ebberon Fork with Project Raptor coming out soon.
At most ERftLW is an introduction to those new to Ebberon like myself. I don't think you need to purchase the new book. At least not the entire thing. You aren't missing much besides the monsters. That said its a good book for newcomers. I've read what I could of the older books.
From the sound of it the races and dragonmarked houses will be updated in time. You aren't missing much with the Patron rules.
They need more race specific feats now that Ebberon's been released with a slew of new races
If the Alchemist Subclass is free, why are they selling it? You didn't have to buy the Free options from the Basic Rules, ya know, cause they were actually free.
Where has anyone said the alchemist Subclass is free? From the beginning, WOTC said that the alchemist would be added to Wayfinder's Guide when it was finished. I do think it was a poor decision on WOTC's part to only include one subclass in Wayfinders. Technically they didn't go back on their word, as they didn't specify a number of subclasses, but it does seem rather questionable to me. And that's coming from somebody who has usually been o.k. with WOTC's choices.
I'm sorry folks feel like they have been misled. I'm a bit mystified by that, to be honest, because I've know from the moment it was released that Wayfinder's was playtest, that the mechanics would be updated to final forms, and that if a hardcover was published it would include at least the mechanical bits from Wayfinders. But I follow the forums both here and on enworld pretty closely. Reading through this thread I've tried to remind myself that not everyone follows the news as closely as I do.
A few other things I'll reiterate from posts higher up on the thread, because I know not everyone reads all the posts in a long thread.
-at least here, you can purchase individually; you could choose just to buy the mechanical bits in Rising that aren't in Wayfinders.
-For those of you who'd like to see the earlier iterations of races, etc., included, you can homebrew them for use here
None of that may change how you feel about the release of Rising, and that's o.k. You are have a right to your feelings, and you have every right to decide how to spend--or not spend--you money in response to those feelings.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk
Not blaiming DDB staff here, Though I agree with how upset a lot of us who have purchased both books are feeling. I'm not going to be purchasing another "Living Document" digital book from WotC again. For me it goes beyond the nerfing of the warforged, as well as deleting their subraces (thusly removing their uniqueness), but also removing The Greater Dragonmark Feat, something that gave more character to those that wanted to add more distinction to their Dragonmarked characters... (keep in mind, I'm writing this as a DM and not a player).
To go further, sofar scanning through both books, side by side, I see a lot of chapters / sections where they are almost copied with perhaps a seperate title, and only a paragraph added to the new book. I'm seeing less, and less value in Wayfinders... as I continue to read...
To quote Mike Mearls from about Wayfinders when it was first released...
"This is 100% official content for Eberron. Since it is an ebook, that also means we can update content with comments based on UA playtests of the races and the artificer. If we do an Eberron print product, we will design it to complement as much as possible what the PDF presents."
in a comment on the same tweet he added:
"Some things, like the artificer, races, and basic world info, will be picked up for a print book, but we want fans to be happy owning both."
so.. if i already own the Wayfinder, i can get everything in "Eberron: Rising from the Last War" by purchasing below options?:
- Subclasses $2.99, Magic Items $3.99, Monsters $7.99, Race - Orc of Eberron $1.99
I haven’t looked carefully at the character options in both. But, yes, if you are just interested in mechanics, not lore and fluff, you only need to purchase those individual items in wayfinders. If you don’t already have Volos, you would need the goblinoid player races if you want to use them.
There is some new/additional lore in Rising, but there is a lot more lore/fluff carry over from Wayfinders than I was expecting based on Mearls’ comments when Wayfinders was released. I’m disappointed with WOTC in that regard, I expected better. And I have no quarrel with those who are angry with them about that issue. I think it would be great if WOTC would do the right thing and find a way to offer folks who bought Wayfinders pre rising a discount on Rising. Since all wayfinders purchasers happened electronically and only on two platforms, I would hope that would be viable.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk
I purchased the WGtE when it came out. Since then I have tracked down all the other earlier edition sources books. I did not need the source material from the new book. I pre-ordered it for the Artificer (Battle Smith). I could have waited and just purchased that separately. In after sight this is what I should have done. I wiuld have saved my money. From what we were told,, all that was supposed to be added to the WGtE was the Artificer to make it complete. They said some material might be updated. Nothing was said about the wholesale butchering of the material I paid for. The Warforged and changeling I grew to love are gone.Am I upset; definitely yes. More, the players in my Eberron campaigns are upset. No, we did not lose those character we already had, but the ability to use and/or change stuff with that older material, that we PAID for, was stolen from us.
This is not DDB's fault they have to follow WotC's line or potentially lose their license for D&D. This put the blame squarely on the shoulder's of WotC. In my opinion, they are culpable of Bait & Switch tactics, theft, and blackmail. I am hoping some lawuyer types see this and look into it. As this is not aimed at DDB, I do not expect this post to be deleted by them, but since WotC has proven themselves capable of criminal activity, they may force DDB to take actions.
I don't know how many people bought WGtE, but when you total the some of those sales the amount may become notable, even to WotC.
What they did with the Artificer is well with their rights unfortunately. It was always UA playtest material, but the material in the original WGtE was ours, bought and paid for. It should never have been taken away without at, the very least, showing that material's OWNERS what the proposed to give us instead and allowing us the RIGHT to say no. As it is, from what little I could find and understand legally they are in the wrong and should be helf accountable.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!