Kreakdude, I think what I'm trying to ascertain is how much you think the content is worth compared to the delivery method, while also allowing for a license fee for WotC. WotC is not going to license their content for free.
If the DDB compendium is $19.99, which is $30 less than the physical PHB, do you believe $19.99 is more than what the value of the delivery method + license fee should be?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Kreakdude, I think what I'm trying to ascertain is how much you think the content is worth compared to the delivery method, while also allowing for a license fee for WotC. WotC is not going to license their content for free.
If the DDB compendium is $19.99, which is $30 less than the physical PHB, do you believe $19.99 is more than what the value of the delivery method + license fee should be?
Honestly I don't understand this question. Where did the second $19.99 come from? Here's a shot at a relevant answer. So the compendium content is the PHB content provided by WotC plus all that DDB added onto it. Are you asking what I think the value is that DDB added? I think the character sheet is really great, but without it to me it isn't worth about barely anything if not zero imo.
Kreakdude, I think what I'm trying to ascertain is how much you think the content is worth compared to the delivery method, while also allowing for a license fee for WotC. WotC is not going to license their content for free.
If the DDB compendium is $19.99, which is $30 less than the physical PHB, do you believe $19.99 is more than what the value of the delivery method + license fee should be?
Honestly I don't understand this question. Where did the second $19.99 come from? Here's a shot at a relevant answer. So the compendium content is the PHB content provided by WotC plus all that DDB added onto it. Are you asking what I think the value is that DDB added? I think the character sheet is really great, but without it to me it isn't worth about barely anything if not zero imo.
$19.99 is the cost to buy the PHB on DDB without being able to use it with the character builder. It is literally a digital reference book. In this format it is most closely comparable to the physical PHB, which is just a physical reference book.
Physical PHB $49.95 vs DDB PHB Compendium $19.99. Difference of $29.96.
My interpretation of your posts so far is that you believe $19.99 is too much to pay for the DDB compendium.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Yes. In my opinion I see little to no reason to pay any money for the compendium content assuming you already have access to the content in the phb. I'm willing to be sold on more than zero, but $20? No.
Yes. In my opinion I see little to no reason to pay any money for the compendium content assuming you already have access to the content in the phb. I'm willing to be sold on more than zero, but $20? No.
A question I still did not get a sensible answer for: how would you, right now, validate a purchase of a PHB physical copy, considering there is no exclusive code associated with each single copy of the PHB book?
Could this, hypothetically, be done in the future? Sure, with a proper agreement between WotC and DDB on how it would be dealt with economically and WotC starts putting codes in their physical products
Could this be retroactive? No way
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Yes. In my opinion I see little to no reason to pay any money for the compendium content assuming you already have access to the content in the phb. I'm willing to be sold on more than zero, but $20? No.
So you believe $19.99 is too high,m but you are unwilling to say how much you believe it is worth paying?
How about this: What do you think a good value is to pay Curse for their labour + overhead + profit for the delivery method they created for the content of the Compendium?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
A question I still did not get a sensible answer for: how would you, right now, validate a purchase of a PHB physical copy, considering there is no exclusive code associated with each single copy of the PHB book?
Based on previous discussion, the only way we could think of would be to cut your barcode off and mail it in. But there are other platform crossings that are digital to digital which could be done with less problems. So future books, past digital and future digital could all be resolved. Past books could be resolved with a messy solution.
Edit: Sorry if this my turn bringing up something already talked about, but I wonder if receipts have anything unique on them so that if you sent in a picture of the receipt then that could be used for proof of purchase. If so, they couldn't validate with barcode and receipt because then the same purchase could be used to validate 2 accounts.
Yes. In my opinion I see little to no reason to pay any money for the compendium content assuming you already have access to the content in the phb. I'm willing to be sold on more than zero, but $20? No.
So you believe $19.99 is too high,m but you are unwilling to say how much you believe it is worth paying?
How about this: What do you think a good value is to pay Curse for their labour + overhead + profit for the delivery method they created for the content of the Compendium?
This seems like the same question. Zero or near zero dollars. Which leaves the rest of the $19.99 to be what I'd value of the content. I'm curious to see where you're headed with this.
This seems like the same question. Zero or near zero dollars. Which leaves the rest of the $19.99 to be what I'd value of the content. I'm curious to see where you're headed with this.
I'm trying to determine the nature of your complaint. It seems like you are saying that the Compendium version on DDB should be Free to anyone who has bought a physical PHB?
If I have understood this correctly, you seem to be saying that any digital version of the PHB - that doesn't include a character builder, VTT integration, or other online tools - should be free to people who have bought the physical PHB. Is this what you are saying?
Because I fundamentally disagree. I believe that Curse deserves to be paid for their labour + overhead + profit turning that content into the compendium on DDB. I also belief it is naiive to believe WotC shouldn't or wouldn't charge a license to Curse to sell the compendium, because Curse isn't WotC, and stands to make a profit from that IP.
If WotC had their own digital version of the PHB that they produced and hosted on their own site, then I would agree with you 90%.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Even though the SRD content is free there are legal sources out there that provide digital delivery of the SRD for free. I think the effort for digital delivery of text is pretty trivial. So yes I think if DDB could confirm proof of purchase of the PHB on some other medium then the compendium content could be offered for free, but that's kinda beside the point. Imo the reason someone would want to switch to DDB is for their Character Builder, not their digital delivery. So the real value of the compendium content is the $19.99 discount it gives you on the $29.99 PHB that can be used with the Character Builder (DDB does that, right?).
I'm looking at it from a user's perspective to determine the value. I'm asking what I get out of it. You're asking what was put into it which I'm not claiming to be wrong it's just different. it's more generous than a consumer need be.
If WotC had their own digital version of the PHB that they produced and hosted on their own site, then I would agree with you 90%.
Even though the SRD content is free there are legal sources out there that provide digital delivery of the SRD for free. I think the effort for digital delivery of text is pretty trivial. So yes I think if DDB could confirm proof of purchase of the PHB on some other medium then the compendium content could be offered for free, but that's kinda beside the point. Imo the reason someone would want to switch to DDB is for their Character Builder, not their digital delivery. So the real value of the compendium content is the $19.99 discount it gives you on the $29.99 PHB that can be used with the Character Builder (DDB does that, right?).
I'm looking at it from a user's perspective to determine the value. I'm asking what I get out of it. You're asking what was put into it which I'm not claiming to be wrong it's just different. it's more generous than a consumer need be.
Except that the SRD is the same as the "Basic" rules which are available for free on the WotC web site. The Compendium version of the PHB on DDB is the full complete text, including all the sub-classes, feats, backgrounds, and spells that are not in the SRD.
So, not apples to apples to compare DDB's Compendium to the SRD.
I also think it's unfair to compare the prited PHB to the value of the full $29.99 PHB on DDB, because the $29.99 PHB on DDB works with the character builder. The printed PHB has no comparable toolset. The Printed PHB compares only to the Compendium as a reference tool. $49.95 for a physical book vs $19.99 for a digital version. A discount of $30.00.
If WotC had their own digital version of the PHB that they produced and hosted on their own site, then I would agree with you 90%.
How does that change things for you?
Because if WotC offered a PDF version of the PHB the way Pathfinder does, the argument you are making would sway me more. If Wizards released a pure PDF dump of the PHB, I could, and would expect the option of getting it for free if I purchased the book. If WotC released a PDF with links, and chapters, and pages, and bookmarks, well then they've added more labour to the product, and I would expect (and we be willing) to pay something for that labour. Maybe $9.99 for a fully featured PDF directly from WotC with proof of purchase of the PHB.
Curse took raw data from WotC and created a database for it, then all the code to style it, and the cost of hosting it, not to mention paying WotC a license fee. We should expect to pay something for that compendium that allows Curse to cover their costs + make a profit. They are not here to be a charity.
WotC by comparison don't need to pay themselves that license fee, and there is no way Hasbro lawyers are going to allow any third party to profit off their IP.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Also important to note that the Basic Rules (SRD) are free here as well.
Yes, it should be stipulated that it is not Curse's decision to put a paywall up for the full PHB compared to the free SRD, that decision rests with WotC, so complaining about it here isn't going to help. The complaint must be made to WotC. Curse is in the same boat as Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, and any other online service that wants to offer more than the SRD.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
The purpose of the SRD example was to put a value on digital delivery of text which it does successfully at zero or near zero.
EDIT: In fact, any site that puts up digital delivery of text from d&d 5e content is valuable to that site just for the increase in traffic. Some sites illegally use that traffic to get paid for ads. A site that uses it legally would benefit from that traffic too essentially running ads for themselves. As a user I am not impressed by a site giving me digital access to the content. As a user the value is negative. If I hit your site in order to access the 5e content digitally I say you're welcome.
A question I still did not get a sensible answer for: how would you, right now, validate a purchase of a PHB physical copy, considering there is no exclusive code associated with each single copy of the PHB book?
Based on previous discussion, the only way we could think of would be to cut your barcode off and mail it in. But there are other platform crossings that are digital to digital which could be done with less problems. So future books, past digital and future digital could all be resolved. Past books could be resolved with a messy solution.
So, therest actually people willing to mutilate a perfectly fine ~50$ book in order to save 29.99$?
Ok... That is something that never crossed my mind, as a lover of books and of roleplay.
IMHO, if you need so badly to have the full digital version of the manuals as to be considering the option you propose, I think you should be willing to spend 30$ every other month to buy one of the books you need on here, but that might just be me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
A question I still did not get a sensible answer for: how would you, right now, validate a purchase of a PHB physical copy, considering there is no exclusive code associated with each single copy of the PHB book?
Based on previous discussion, the only way we could think of would be to cut your barcode off and mail it in. But there are other platform crossings that are digital to digital which could be done with less problems. So future books, past digital and future digital could all be resolved. Past books could be resolved with a messy solution.
So, therest actually people willing to mutilate a perfectly fine ~50$ book in order to save 29.99$?
Ok... That is something that never crossed my mind, as a lover of books and of roleplay.
IMHO, if you need so badly to have the full digital version of the manuals as to be considering the option you propose, I think you should be willing to spend 30$ every other month to buy one of the books you need on here, but that might just be me.
"willing to mutilate [dozens of] perfectly fine ~$50 book[s] in order to save [$19.99-$29.99 ish for each book on each medium]?"
Still though, focusing on a small part of the whole issue, past books. There's still future books, past digital and future digital for several digital sources. Just leave out past books from the issue if you can't stop focusing on it and move on with the discussion concerning the rest.
Still though, focusing on a small part of the whole issue, past books. There's still future books, past digital and future digital for several digital sources. Just leave out past books from the issue if you can't stop focusing on it and move on with the discussion concerning the rest.
Right, because we nerds are the most forgiving and understanding people in the world. ;-) I think we all know how that would go over.
Kreakdude, FWIW I understand what you want, and in an ideal world we would have unhindered access to "knowledge" and "information", but we don't live in that world, and it is unlikely to happen in our lifetime.
We live in a capitalist society where owners of content or product will charge what the market will bear. There is no incentive for them not to.
I believe that, given the current cost of living in North America, I have paid what the content is worth, both for my physical PHB, and for my digital PHB. I don't need either to play the game, I made a choice to buy them. I am not owed either for anything less than what the producer chooses to sell them for.
Given the reality of our capitalist world, if we continue to devalue content/production while giving no incentive for prices to decrease, our wages will decrease, and with it our quality of life.
We have commoditized so many things, including human labour, and it is to our detriment. Wal-Mart might mean that we can now buy more goods with our wages, but perversely has the effect of pushing down wages.
If I thought the cost of the physical or digital PHBs was more than they should be, I wouldn't buy them. The more people who don't buy them, the more likely they will lower the price until people do buy. The fact that that hasn't happened means they've likely done a good job of finding the right price point for the majority of users, and frankly, that's all they need.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Kreakdude, FWIW I understand what you want, and in an ideal world we would have unhindered access to "knowledge" and "information", but we don't live in that world, and it is unlikely to happen in our lifetime.
Not with that attitude.
You're trying to paint this picture that my viewpoint is so extreme. It's really not. I'm not asking for "unhindered access to knowledge and information" so you are still not portraying that you understand despite claiming to. You're trying to say that what I'm asking for would somehow not work with capitalism. It would. Things are not so exclusive as you think. Just because what I'm saying would also work in capitalism doesn't mean that what is currently happening isn't working.
To be honest you lost me through most of that. Idk how you think what I'm proposing is anything like wal-mart.
I let you drive the conversation for a bit so we could arrive at this painted picture while you still ignored the core part of my issue back at this post which this picture does not take into consideration.
Am I the only one that hit this statement and did a double take? How is the value "negative" if you are a) looking for a thing and b) getting that thing? That makes me think you are using a definition of the word "value", or perhaps "negative" with which I am entirely unfamiliar.
I have just deleted a post that was not acceptable.
Any further instances of name calling will result in formal penalties - these forums are not a place where it is acceptable to insult other users for expressing an alternative opinion to your own, or for posting in a different style.
Kreakdude, I think what I'm trying to ascertain is how much you think the content is worth compared to the delivery method, while also allowing for a license fee for WotC. WotC is not going to license their content for free.
If the DDB compendium is $19.99, which is $30 less than the physical PHB, do you believe $19.99 is more than what the value of the delivery method + license fee should be?
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Honestly I don't understand this question. Where did the second $19.99 come from? Here's a shot at a relevant answer. So the compendium content is the PHB content provided by WotC plus all that DDB added onto it. Are you asking what I think the value is that DDB added? I think the character sheet is really great, but without it to me it isn't worth about barely anything if not zero imo.
$19.99 is the cost to buy the PHB on DDB without being able to use it with the character builder. It is literally a digital reference book. In this format it is most closely comparable to the physical PHB, which is just a physical reference book.
Physical PHB $49.95 vs DDB PHB Compendium $19.99. Difference of $29.96.
My interpretation of your posts so far is that you believe $19.99 is too much to pay for the DDB compendium.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Yes. In my opinion I see little to no reason to pay any money for the compendium content assuming you already have access to the content in the phb. I'm willing to be sold on more than zero, but $20? No.
A question I still did not get a sensible answer for: how would you, right now, validate a purchase of a PHB physical copy, considering there is no exclusive code associated with each single copy of the PHB book?
Could this, hypothetically, be done in the future? Sure, with a proper agreement between WotC and DDB on how it would be dealt with economically and WotC starts putting codes in their physical products
Could this be retroactive? No way
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
So you believe $19.99 is too high,m but you are unwilling to say how much you believe it is worth paying?
How about this: What do you think a good value is to pay Curse for their labour + overhead + profit for the delivery method they created for the content of the Compendium?
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Based on previous discussion, the only way we could think of would be to cut your barcode off and mail it in. But there are other platform crossings that are digital to digital which could be done with less problems. So future books, past digital and future digital could all be resolved. Past books could be resolved with a messy solution.
Edit: Sorry if this my turn bringing up something already talked about, but I wonder if receipts have anything unique on them so that if you sent in a picture of the receipt then that could be used for proof of purchase. If so, they couldn't validate with barcode and receipt because then the same purchase could be used to validate 2 accounts.
This seems like the same question. Zero or near zero dollars. Which leaves the rest of the $19.99 to be what I'd value of the content. I'm curious to see where you're headed with this.
I'm trying to determine the nature of your complaint. It seems like you are saying that the Compendium version on DDB should be Free to anyone who has bought a physical PHB?
If I have understood this correctly, you seem to be saying that any digital version of the PHB - that doesn't include a character builder, VTT integration, or other online tools - should be free to people who have bought the physical PHB. Is this what you are saying?
Because I fundamentally disagree. I believe that Curse deserves to be paid for their labour + overhead + profit turning that content into the compendium on DDB. I also belief it is naiive to believe WotC shouldn't or wouldn't charge a license to Curse to sell the compendium, because Curse isn't WotC, and stands to make a profit from that IP.
If WotC had their own digital version of the PHB that they produced and hosted on their own site, then I would agree with you 90%.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Even though the SRD content is free there are legal sources out there that provide digital delivery of the SRD for free. I think the effort for digital delivery of text is pretty trivial. So yes I think if DDB could confirm proof of purchase of the PHB on some other medium then the compendium content could be offered for free, but that's kinda beside the point. Imo the reason someone would want to switch to DDB is for their Character Builder, not their digital delivery. So the real value of the compendium content is the $19.99 discount it gives you on the $29.99 PHB that can be used with the Character Builder (DDB does that, right?).
I'm looking at it from a user's perspective to determine the value. I'm asking what I get out of it. You're asking what was put into it which I'm not claiming to be wrong it's just different. it's more generous than a consumer need be.
How does that change things for you?
Except that the SRD is the same as the "Basic" rules which are available for free on the WotC web site. The Compendium version of the PHB on DDB is the full complete text, including all the sub-classes, feats, backgrounds, and spells that are not in the SRD.
So, not apples to apples to compare DDB's Compendium to the SRD.
I also think it's unfair to compare the prited PHB to the value of the full $29.99 PHB on DDB, because the $29.99 PHB on DDB works with the character builder. The printed PHB has no comparable toolset. The Printed PHB compares only to the Compendium as a reference tool. $49.95 for a physical book vs $19.99 for a digital version. A discount of $30.00.
Because if WotC offered a PDF version of the PHB the way Pathfinder does, the argument you are making would sway me more. If Wizards released a pure PDF dump of the PHB, I could, and would expect the option of getting it for free if I purchased the book. If WotC released a PDF with links, and chapters, and pages, and bookmarks, well then they've added more labour to the product, and I would expect (and we be willing) to pay something for that labour. Maybe $9.99 for a fully featured PDF directly from WotC with proof of purchase of the PHB.
Curse took raw data from WotC and created a database for it, then all the code to style it, and the cost of hosting it, not to mention paying WotC a license fee. We should expect to pay something for that compendium that allows Curse to cover their costs + make a profit. They are not here to be a charity.
WotC by comparison don't need to pay themselves that license fee, and there is no way Hasbro lawyers are going to allow any third party to profit off their IP.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Also important to note that the Basic Rules (SRD) are free here as well.
Yes, it should be stipulated that it is not Curse's decision to put a paywall up for the full PHB compared to the free SRD, that decision rests with WotC, so complaining about it here isn't going to help. The complaint must be made to WotC. Curse is in the same boat as Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, and any other online service that wants to offer more than the SRD.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
The purpose of the SRD example was to put a value on digital delivery of text which it does successfully at zero or near zero.
EDIT: In fact, any site that puts up digital delivery of text from d&d 5e content is valuable to that site just for the increase in traffic. Some sites illegally use that traffic to get paid for ads. A site that uses it legally would benefit from that traffic too essentially running ads for themselves. As a user I am not impressed by a site giving me digital access to the content. As a user the value is negative. If I hit your site in order to access the 5e content digitally I say you're welcome.
So, therest actually people willing to mutilate a perfectly fine ~50$ book in order to save 29.99$?
Ok... That is something that never crossed my mind, as a lover of books and of roleplay.
IMHO, if you need so badly to have the full digital version of the manuals as to be considering the option you propose, I think you should be willing to spend 30$ every other month to buy one of the books you need on here, but that might just be me.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
"willing to mutilate [dozens of] perfectly fine ~$50 book[s] in order to save [$19.99-$29.99 ish for each book on each medium]?"
Still though, focusing on a small part of the whole issue, past books. There's still future books, past digital and future digital for several digital sources. Just leave out past books from the issue if you can't stop focusing on it and move on with the discussion concerning the rest.
Right, because we nerds are the most forgiving and understanding people in the world. ;-) I think we all know how that would go over.
Kreakdude, FWIW I understand what you want, and in an ideal world we would have unhindered access to "knowledge" and "information", but we don't live in that world, and it is unlikely to happen in our lifetime.
We live in a capitalist society where owners of content or product will charge what the market will bear. There is no incentive for them not to.
I believe that, given the current cost of living in North America, I have paid what the content is worth, both for my physical PHB, and for my digital PHB. I don't need either to play the game, I made a choice to buy them. I am not owed either for anything less than what the producer chooses to sell them for.
Given the reality of our capitalist world, if we continue to devalue content/production while giving no incentive for prices to decrease, our wages will decrease, and with it our quality of life.
We have commoditized so many things, including human labour, and it is to our detriment. Wal-Mart might mean that we can now buy more goods with our wages, but perversely has the effect of pushing down wages.
If I thought the cost of the physical or digital PHBs was more than they should be, I wouldn't buy them. The more people who don't buy them, the more likely they will lower the price until people do buy. The fact that that hasn't happened means they've likely done a good job of finding the right price point for the majority of users, and frankly, that's all they need.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Not with that attitude.
You're trying to paint this picture that my viewpoint is so extreme. It's really not. I'm not asking for "unhindered access to knowledge and information" so you are still not portraying that you understand despite claiming to. You're trying to say that what I'm asking for would somehow not work with capitalism. It would. Things are not so exclusive as you think. Just because what I'm saying would also work in capitalism doesn't mean that what is currently happening isn't working.
To be honest you lost me through most of that. Idk how you think what I'm proposing is anything like wal-mart.
I let you drive the conversation for a bit so we could arrive at this painted picture while you still ignored the core part of my issue back at this post which this picture does not take into consideration.
Am I the only one that hit this statement and did a double take? How is the value "negative" if you are a) looking for a thing and b) getting that thing? That makes me think you are using a definition of the word "value", or perhaps "negative" with which I am entirely unfamiliar.
I have bought Mordenkainens as digital, but i havent gotten my physical book yet.
I dont want to pay it twice, so i will go into my closest bookstore and show my reciept for purchase on DND Beyond.
Hopefully the bookstore will give me the book for free as i dont want to pay for the same content twice.
(The above was written with ALOT of irony :-) )
I'm not stupid. I'm just unlucky when I'm thinking.
Please note - final warning on this discussion.
I have just deleted a post that was not acceptable.
Any further instances of name calling will result in formal penalties - these forums are not a place where it is acceptable to insult other users for expressing an alternative opinion to your own, or for posting in a different style.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
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