Orcs and drow are the main problem. Arguments like this are normally slippery slope arguments meant to distract from the real discussion (though I don't think you were meaning to do so here).
Now, can we get back on topic?
Again - why are we only focusing on two of the alleged evil races? It is not at all a slippery slope to question why we need to change these two races but ignore all the others. Again from the MM:
The black, blue, green, red, and white dragons represent the evil side of dragonkind. Aggressive, gluttonous, and vain, chromatic dragons are dark sages and powerful tyrants feared by all creatures — including each other.
Metallic dragons seek to preserve and protect, viewing themselves as one powerful race among the many races that have a place in the world.
So I don't understand why we dismiss this point. If we are going to talk about removing inherently evil beings from D&D we cannot focus on 2, we need to look at all of them. Just like how we cannot argue that 2 of those species should not have generally evil societies, but the others are fine.
We say mind flayers are evil becuase of their diet and reproduction. But a biologist would never call a parasite and evil being simply because of its nature. Yet here we call Mind flayers evil due to their nature, but question of Orcs and Drow should be evil due to their societal norms and creation. If we say that "Because of free will," do mind flayers not have free will? It is argued they are smarter than the smartest human so it is easy to say they have free will, yet we still dismiss this concept that they should be changed to be more neutral.
It was also dismissed by someone earlier because they have examples of "good" characters. Yet the argument that Drow and Orcs also have "good" characters is dismissed as "not enough." Yet we are not going to talk about mind flayers being changed because "They have an example of being good."
Did I "just dismiss the point?"
No. Thanks for cookie-cutting my post, btw. I answered your questions and politely asked if we could get back on topic. I also said that I didn't think you meant to do a slippery slope argument there, but now I'm not so sure. You've ignored most of the substance of the post in order to focus on the slippery slope to distract from the main problem, thereby preventing the real discussion to continue.
Sure, viruses and other parasites aren't evil because of their nature, but frankly, a tapeworm is too stupid to be considered evil. Whether or not a mind flayer is considered evil because of their predatorial nature is neither here nor there.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
So a being is Evil because they need to consume something to live and cannot grow it itself? OR is that not the point you are making. Mind flayers eat brains therefore they need to prey on other beings to survive. Yet we do not call a wolf evil because it needs to eat a rabbit?
Again Orcs having evil in their nature due to creation is bad, But mind flayers can be evil due to the nature of their creation.
Did you even read my post? I said that Mind Flayers are evil because they eat the brains of sentient creatures. Orcs should not be evil because of the way they were created, and neither should Mind Flayers. They didn't choose to destroy a humanoid in order to come into existence, as far as we're aware, but eating the brains of living people is taboo enough to make you be considered evil.
Sure, mind flayers are predators, but what they prey on is more important here. They're smarter than wolves, and are smart enough to be considered evil by D&D standards.
Again, this discussion is derailing the topic, and can we please get back to the real discussion?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
the point he was making is that the mind flayers dont HAVE a choice. you dont BECOME an illithid, you are BORN one. by that logic, they have no control over what they need to survive (unlike lichdom or some forms of vampirism.) Isnt discrimination about what we are born as exactly what we are trying to erase?
also......almonds.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
1- It will appeal to members of the existing player base that do not like the current direction taken with orcs and drow. And it just tick the one of the other sides of the play base which have not problem with the word race. It will amuse the player base which see the word "race" in d&d as a game term and not the dictionary definition. I the groups I hang out with, this desire to change the word is a huge tempest in a tea cup.
2.- Will have a greater impact, long term, on the fight against discrimination... A wording change in a few books for niche hobby will not do this.
3- Will prevent controversy with existing species and/or future species being labelled as "Evil" .. But I like EVIL I am DM you should thank me for playing Evil. So this just another Barracks Beer discussion between the grunts against the college boys. Personally when I homebrew my world is GOOD vs EVIL. Orcs, gnolls, are cheap and easy XP.
If WOTC wants to change some wording here and there about orcs and drow being "always evil" Go ahead. But changing a word to another word will have no impact. True story. I listen to some Elementary teachers talking about word changes demanded from the school board. It when like this. Can not use "******" any more because the mean kids are using ****** as Insult. Can not use "Gifted" any more because the mean kids are using Gifted as playground insult. Can not use "Special Needs" any more because the mean kids are using Special as insult.
I went to college and I think it’s important to respect people’s feelings and avoid racist/sexist/queerphobic implications. That being said, I also think it’s possible to have a friendly discussion (which this has been) about this topic over a beer or two.
Respect...maybe. Treat with civility, definitely. I only question respect because respect is earned, not freely given. Keeping things friendly is also a very good thing to do. I respect Kotath in this discussion because (s)he can make an argument, back it up and it is clear (s)he believes what they are saying, even though, on this particular topic, we have been on opposite sides of the debate.
I know your statement wasn’t pointed at anyone (or at least it doesn’t come across that way) and I agree with it for the most part. Although I’d say root beer instead of beer as I don’t drink.
Perfect. I love root beer 😀.
And it was definitely not aimed at anyone. Everyone here has been extremely respectful and friendly.
Just saying, let’s not get mad at each other over this.Opinions are important, but they shouldn’t be the cause of an unfriendly argument. As for the Mind Flayers being evil and Orcs shouldn’t, it all depends on who is the DM in your group. And you have a great thought on this subject, I personally agree with you about the Orcs and Mind Flayers.
Chromatic Dragons should not be automatically bad, and Metallic Dragons should not be automatically good, like in Eberron. I'm fine if individual settings make the majority of different dragon types certain alignments due to culture, but this should not be included in a future Monster Manual, IMHO.
I think you may want to check with other cultures on that white = good, black = evil thing...
Yeah. Black was a good color in Ancient Egyptian culture. It symbolized fertility, new life, and resurrection. Their god of death was known as the "black one" because of how he was a resurrected god in their mythology. White was also the color of the sacred.
Gary Gygax wasn't Egyptian or Asian.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Something I've also been thinking while watching this thread:
Orcs and drow are being brought up, but I've seen no mention of other species that are extremely "Evil" like Mind flayers,Chromatic Dragons, Hags, Yuan-Ti, Goblinoids, etc.
Do we need to make these groups also completely neutral in nature too? Do Dragons division in to need to be changed and any color can be anything? Do Mind flayers need redeeming qualities? Even though in the lore we are given they are the reason for things such as the gith and the Duergar? I'm not saying no, but just if we are going to talk about there should be no "Evil" races then maybe we should start looking at all the groups of "evil" characters too and also make those groups change?
just some food for thought
Orcs and drow are the main problem. Arguments like this are normally slippery slope arguments meant to distract from the real discussion (though I don't think you were meaning to do so here).
Goblinoids should not be automatically evil, period.
Chromatic Dragons should not be automatically bad, and Metallic Dragons should not be automatically good, like in Eberron. I'm fine if individual settings make the majority of different dragon types certain alignments due to culture, but this should not be included in a future Monster Manual, IMHO.
Mind Flayers are literally created by a "brain worm" climbing through your ear or nostril, eating your brain, turning your body purple and slimy, and transforming you completely. I honestly have no problem with having Mind Flayers naturally "evil" because the species needs to kill humanoids in order to reproduce.
Yuan-Ti are tricky. Yes, they can be humanoids. But, they are mostly evil due to their evil "gods", IMHO. They should not be automatically evil. Eberron has yuan-ti that are similar to aasimar.
Hags are otherworldly. They reproduce by eating infants, and then giving birth to a hag. I'm fine with having them evil.
In general most monstrosities, humanoids, plants, and other natural creatures should not be confined to specific alignments. Fiends can naturally be evil, but can rise to do good. Celestials are naturally good, but can fall to evil. Aberrations are okay being naturally evil, but exceptions should exist (flumphs, nice beholders, etc).
Now, can we get back on topic?
Totally agree
I hadn’t heard that about illithids. That’s fascinating.
So a being is Evil because they need to consume something to live and cannot grow it itself? OR is that not the point you are making. Mind flayers eat brains therefore they need to prey on other beings to survive. Yet we do not call a wolf evil because it needs to eat a rabbit?
Mind flayers need to prey on sapient beings to survive, so yes, the choice to survive is, at least without an awful lot of extra effort, evil (you can maybe come up with schemes where only 'acceptable' targets are prey, but it's a lot of work). I mean, dying may not be an option people are likely to pick, but it is an option.
Wolves are not evil because rabbits are animals, not sapient beings. Come up with a scheme whereby mindflayers can survive on rabbit brains, sure, problem solved.
the point he was making is that the mind flayers dont HAVE a choice. you dont BECOME an illithid, you are BORN one. by that logic, they have no control over what they need to survive (unlike lichdom or some forms of vampirism.) Isnt discrimination about what we are born as exactly what we are trying to erase?
You have a choice about what actions you take in pursuit of survival. If surviving requires you to commit monthly murder, the choice to survive is evil.
You have a choice about what actions you take in pursuit of survival. If surviving requires you to commit monthly murder, the choice to survive is evil.
It is only evil from the viewpoint of the victim. For the mindflayer or vampire, they don't think about it. It's just food. Just like most folks don't mourn over eating a bag of chips.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I think you may want to check with other cultures on that white = good, black = evil thing...
Yeah. Black was a good color in Ancient Egyptian culture. It symbolized fertility, new life, and resurrection. Their god of death was known as the "black one" because of how he was a resurrected god in their mythology. White was also the color of the sacred.
Gary Gygax wasn't Egyptian or Asian.
Does that have any relevance to what my post was about? Black has not always meant evil.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
You have a choice about what actions you take in pursuit of survival. If surviving requires you to commit monthly murder, the choice to survive is evil.
It is only evil from the viewpoint of the victim. For the mindflayer or vampire, they don't think about it. It's just food. Just like most folks don't mourn over eating a bag of chips.
And that still makes it evil. The player races are the victims, which makes mind flayers and vampires evil.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
You have a choice about what actions you take in pursuit of survival. If surviving requires you to commit monthly murder, the choice to survive is evil.
It is only evil from the viewpoint of the victim. For the mindflayer or vampire, they don't think about it. It's just food. Just like most folks don't mourn over eating a bag of chips.
And the two comments above sums up the debate about evil races. And I feel like I back in Ethics class again.
Chromatic Dragons should not be automatically bad, and Metallic Dragons should not be automatically good, like in Eberron. I'm fine if individual settings make the majority of different dragon types certain alignments due to culture, but this should not be included in a future Monster Manual, IMHO.
And that's when I stop buying D&D products again.
You wouldn't buy a Monster Manual if it said that dragons can be any alignment, even if the individual settings would keep their unique alignments absolutely the same?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
So now you're a moral relativist? If my neighbor has a pretty thing that I want, so I bash his brains out and take it for myself, I'm only evil if I feel bad afterwards?
the point he was making is that the mind flayers dont HAVE a choice. you dont BECOME an illithid, you are BORN one. by that logic, they have no control over what they need to survive (unlike lichdom or some forms of vampirism.) Isnt discrimination about what we are born as exactly what we are trying to erase?
also......almonds.
Again, we're not clear on that. Whether the Mind Flayer Tadpole has a choice when it decides to consume the brain of the humanoid it then transforms is not known. Discrimination against what we're born as is what we're trying to get rid of in the D&D races, but that's not what makes mind flayers evil. They were created through evil acts (like most undead) and need to do evil acts to stay alive (like vampires and liches).
Sure, I'm all for not discriminating against mind flayers, as long as they stop doing evil things in order to live.
Just saying, let’s not get mad at each other over this.Opinions are important, but they shouldn’t be the cause of an unfriendly argument. As for the Mind Flayers being evil and Orcs shouldn’t, it all depends on who is the DM in your group. And you have a great thought on this subject, I personally agree with you about the Orcs and Mind Flayers.
Oh, sorry. I honestly didn't mean to cause any offense to anyone. I can argue without getting emotions involved most of the time, I can fairly easily approach things analytically and call out mistakes in arguments (not referring to anyone in particular, just saying in general). Mind Flayer morality definitely depends on the DM (like almost everything in D&D) and thanks for agreeing with me.
You have a choice about what actions you take in pursuit of survival. If surviving requires you to commit monthly murder, the choice to survive is evil.
It is only evil from the viewpoint of the victim. For the mindflayer or vampire, they don't think about it. It's just food. Just like most folks don't mourn over eating a bag of chips.
And the two comments above sums up the debate about evil races. And I feel like I back in Ethics class again.
Nurture vs. Nature. Mind Flayers are naturally created through evil acts, but don't have to choose to be that way. They don't get to choose whether or not they are mind flayers or whether or not they have to eat brains to survive, but they can try to not do evil acts by finding other solutions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I think you may want to check with other cultures on that white = good, black = evil thing...
Yeah. Black was a good color in Ancient Egyptian culture. It symbolized fertility, new life, and resurrection. Their god of death was known as the "black one" because of how he was a resurrected god in their mythology. White was also the color of the sacred.
Gary Gygax wasn't Egyptian or Asian.
Does that have any relevance to what my post was about? Black has not always meant evil.
Yes it does. Whether you like it or not, you are influenced by your culture and your background. Gary Gygax was neither Asian nor Egyptian. He wasn't thinking "Oh no! black means goody goody in another culture, I'm not going to make my villains black." He was an American in the 70s. Back then black coloring was an easy tell in a fantasy environment that something isn't good. American culture was (is?) infused with black being bad - black witch, black hat, black magic, blackened soul...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Chromatic Dragons should not be automatically bad, and Metallic Dragons should not be automatically good, like in Eberron. I'm fine if individual settings make the majority of different dragon types certain alignments due to culture, but this should not be included in a future Monster Manual, IMHO.
And that's when I stop buying D&D products again.
So then this was a horrible movie to you, not because of any of the acting or anything in the script other than the
So now you're a moral relativist? If my neighbor has a pretty thing that I want, so I bash his brains out and take it for myself, I'm only evil if I feel bad afterwards?
Some cultures don't believe in personal possessions. Not counting your killing bit, if somebody from that culture took your things, they wouldn't feel anything about it. It's why they have trouble when they come to America and get accused of theft.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I think you may want to check with other cultures on that white = good, black = evil thing...
Yeah. Black was a good color in Ancient Egyptian culture. It symbolized fertility, new life, and resurrection. Their god of death was known as the "black one" because of how he was a resurrected god in their mythology. White was also the color of the sacred.
Gary Gygax wasn't Egyptian or Asian.
Does that have any relevance to what my post was about? Black has not always meant evil.
Yes it does. Whether you like it or not, you are influenced by your culture and your background. Gary Gygax was neither Asian nor Egyptian. He wasn't thinking "Oh no! black means goody goody in another culture, I'm not going to make my villains black." He was an American in the 70s. Back then black coloring was an easy tell in a fantasy environment that something isn't good. American culture was (is?) infused with black being bad - black witch, black hat, black magic, blackened soul...
Again, I am not arguing that your posts are false or anything, they're mostly true, but that has no relevance to what my post, or @Kotath's post before mine, was talking about. Black has not always meant evil.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Did I "just dismiss the point?"
No. Thanks for cookie-cutting my post, btw. I answered your questions and politely asked if we could get back on topic. I also said that I didn't think you meant to do a slippery slope argument there, but now I'm not so sure. You've ignored most of the substance of the post in order to focus on the slippery slope to distract from the main problem, thereby preventing the real discussion to continue.
Sure, viruses and other parasites aren't evil because of their nature, but frankly, a tapeworm is too stupid to be considered evil. Whether or not a mind flayer is considered evil because of their predatorial nature is neither here nor there.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Did you even read my post? I said that Mind Flayers are evil because they eat the brains of sentient creatures. Orcs should not be evil because of the way they were created, and neither should Mind Flayers. They didn't choose to destroy a humanoid in order to come into existence, as far as we're aware, but eating the brains of living people is taboo enough to make you be considered evil.
Sure, mind flayers are predators, but what they prey on is more important here. They're smarter than wolves, and are smart enough to be considered evil by D&D standards.
Again, this discussion is derailing the topic, and can we please get back to the real discussion?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
the point he was making is that the mind flayers dont HAVE a choice. you dont BECOME an illithid, you are BORN one. by that logic, they have no control over what they need to survive (unlike lichdom or some forms of vampirism.) Isnt discrimination about what we are born as exactly what we are trying to erase?
also......almonds.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Perfect. I love root beer 😀.
And it was definitely not aimed at anyone. Everyone here has been extremely respectful and friendly.
Just saying, let’s not get mad at each other over this.Opinions are important, but they shouldn’t be the cause of an unfriendly argument. As for the Mind Flayers being evil and Orcs shouldn’t, it all depends on who is the DM in your group. And you have a great thought on this subject, I personally agree with you about the Orcs and Mind Flayers.
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
And that's when I stop buying D&D products again.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Gary Gygax wasn't Egyptian or Asian.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Totally agree
I hadn’t heard that about illithids. That’s fascinating.
Mind flayers need to prey on sapient beings to survive, so yes, the choice to survive is, at least without an awful lot of extra effort, evil (you can maybe come up with schemes where only 'acceptable' targets are prey, but it's a lot of work). I mean, dying may not be an option people are likely to pick, but it is an option.
Wolves are not evil because rabbits are animals, not sapient beings. Come up with a scheme whereby mindflayers can survive on rabbit brains, sure, problem solved.
You have a choice about what actions you take in pursuit of survival. If surviving requires you to commit monthly murder, the choice to survive is evil.
It is only evil from the viewpoint of the victim. For the mindflayer or vampire, they don't think about it. It's just food. Just like most folks don't mourn over eating a bag of chips.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Does that have any relevance to what my post was about? Black has not always meant evil.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
And that still makes it evil. The player races are the victims, which makes mind flayers and vampires evil.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
And the two comments above sums up the debate about evil races. And I feel like I back in Ethics class again.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
You wouldn't buy a Monster Manual if it said that dragons can be any alignment, even if the individual settings would keep their unique alignments absolutely the same?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
So now you're a moral relativist? If my neighbor has a pretty thing that I want, so I bash his brains out and take it for myself, I'm only evil if I feel bad afterwards?
Again, we're not clear on that. Whether the Mind Flayer Tadpole has a choice when it decides to consume the brain of the humanoid it then transforms is not known. Discrimination against what we're born as is what we're trying to get rid of in the D&D races, but that's not what makes mind flayers evil. They were created through evil acts (like most undead) and need to do evil acts to stay alive (like vampires and liches).
Sure, I'm all for not discriminating against mind flayers, as long as they stop doing evil things in order to live.
Oh, sorry. I honestly didn't mean to cause any offense to anyone. I can argue without getting emotions involved most of the time, I can fairly easily approach things analytically and call out mistakes in arguments (not referring to anyone in particular, just saying in general). Mind Flayer morality definitely depends on the DM (like almost everything in D&D) and thanks for agreeing with me.
Nurture vs. Nature. Mind Flayers are naturally created through evil acts, but don't have to choose to be that way. They don't get to choose whether or not they are mind flayers or whether or not they have to eat brains to survive, but they can try to not do evil acts by finding other solutions.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yes it does. Whether you like it or not, you are influenced by your culture and your background. Gary Gygax was neither Asian nor Egyptian. He wasn't thinking "Oh no! black means goody goody in another culture, I'm not going to make my villains black." He was an American in the 70s. Back then black coloring was an easy tell in a fantasy environment that something isn't good. American culture was (is?) infused with black being bad - black witch, black hat, black magic, blackened soul...
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
What movie?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Some cultures don't believe in personal possessions. Not counting your killing bit, if somebody from that culture took your things, they wouldn't feel anything about it. It's why they have trouble when they come to America and get accused of theft.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Again, I am not arguing that your posts are false or anything, they're mostly true, but that has no relevance to what my post, or @Kotath's post before mine, was talking about. Black has not always meant evil.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms