A Psi class that removed material components, called its abilities anything besides spells, and used a list of existing spells for their already understood and widely known effects rather than because of the word 'spell' seems practical, efficient and able to convey the widest possible array of powers while keeping the new class light on the rules glut.
I could see this working. Use verbiage such as "as though you had cast the _________ spell". But the limiter on how often would need to be something other than Spell Slots. Otherwise you quite literally are just casting spells. And I would expect a slew of new Psionic Abilities (unfortunately, codified in the rulebooks as spells) that are not available to Wizard or Sorcerer classes. Only some overlap with Warlock. That said, the only class feature we've talked about is the Psionic Powers class feature, which would roughly correlate to a Spellcasting Feature in another class.
Okay, okay, hear me out.
We build a class that can use cervain powers, a certain number of times per day.
We need to differentiate them in terms of strength, so we give each power a 'level'.
Levels then cost a different amount of energy to manifest - stands to reason.
And each power does a certain *Thing*, with a duration. Some of them you need to consistently concentrate on, some not.
Congratulations! You're using the exact same principles as spell casting, but you're a Psion.
This is why a subclass specific overhaul of spellcasting is the reasonable and practical approach. Casting spells and using Psionic powers are so very very different in fluff... but so very very almost exactly the same mechanically.
The alternate rule of Spell Points could actually suit this very well, admittetly. Rather than having certain slots per level, you have a pool and every level costs a different amount to cast. But if that's too hard to balance, we'll, sorcerer already has rules to move around your slots...
What does “needed” even mean? The whole game doesn’t “need” to exist. But all of us want it to.
Likewise, of course an actual psion class isn’t “needed.” Neither is the wizard. But for a great many of us, if we want to play a psion and the DM or WotC or whoever tells us “just play this wizard subclass and pretend,” we will not enjoy playing that character.
Do you like warlocks? Play a wizard instead and tell us if it’s just as fun. You play a warlock because you don’t want to play a wizard. The fact that warlock already exists and psion doesn’t is nice for people who like warlocks, but it doesn’t mean people who already got theirs should be so dismissive of people who haven’t yet.
I hate to break this to you Brachiaraidos, but your suggestion isn't a new one, it's one that we in the Psionics=/=Spellcasting camp hear multiple times in a single thread, for every thread it comes up in. It just does not fulfill the need that our specific bloc is looking for, and we have given a whole plethora of reasons why that is on multiple threads now.
On a different note, I've heard the conjuration spells have made it in, but I'm wondering what others (I'm assuming there's others) will be included?
Folks like Sposta and myself believe psychic abilities are as different from 'Magic' as Magic is from Technology, and Technology is from Conan Swording. It is a fundamentally different force that in many cases does not, and should not interact with "magical" forces. Yes, many spells duplicate effects that should properly be psychic in nature. Spells like Detect Thoughts are ones everybody holds up as 'proving' that spells with a purple-tint filter over them can totally act as psionic abilities, without regard to the fact that in many cases, those spells probably shouldn't exist.
I don't particularly like Detect Thoughts as a spell. Nor do I like Telekinesis as a spell. Those abilities do not make sense as Magical Spells. Many of these fundamentally psychic abilities are implemented as spells, which makes it very difficult to make psychic characters mechanically distinct from spellcasters....
These highlight the problem, and also why there will never be a solution or a middle ground that will ever please you.
You are treating magic as your own personal interpretation of what it SHOULD be, and not what it IS within the published rules, lore and mechanics of D&D. You are basing your viewpoint on a different fundamental reality to everybody that uses magic as published by WotC.
In D&D, telekinesis and mind reading are magic powers. End of. That's not up for debate. It will never be possible to publish Psi talents that will make you happy because you being happy with them is predicated on the nature of magic in D&D being fundementally different to what it actually IS.
On a different note, I've heard the conjuration spells have made it in, but I'm wondering what others (I'm assuming there's others) will be included?
Hopefully more non-fire elemental spells. I’m also interested in what changes may have happened to the CFVs between UA and publication.
Would be interesting to see them rolling out new spells that never went through UA - but with the volume of content here that never saw test, it certainly seems possible.
Anything to let more casters become elememtal thrmed/focused is a boon for sure.
No, you are saying that the Spellcasting mechanics should be the only form of “magic mechanics” in the game because you don’t want anything different. Why can there not be a different form of “magic” that doesn’t use spells. Why can’t things like telekinesis and mind reading be both spells, and something different too?!?
We specifically want them to be different. That’s the point. If it isn’t going to be different then there’s no effing point. If all Psionics is going to be is a reimagined form of spellcasting, then go reimagine yourself some Spellcasting and don’t call it Psionics. If it isn’t going to actually be different, then they may as well not even bother.
I guess we'll have to watch people playing it during the D&D Celebration on WotC's D&D twitch channel. The lineup includes some folks I watch who already have the preview. A long-time DM in one of the groups seems excited after looking through it.
So... there's that.
... but those folks in the celebration are also being sponsored. So... there's that, too. (I trust 'em to be honest, still, but transparency and all that...)
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
No, you are saying that the Spellcasting mechanics should be the only form of “magic mechanics” in the game because you don’t want anything different.
We specifically want them to be different. That’s the point. If it isn’t going to be different then there’s no effing point. If all Psionics is going to be is a reimagined form of spellcasting, then go reimagine yourself some Spellcasting and don’t call it Psionics. If it isn’t going to actually be different, then they may as well not even bother.
So literally every effect that has been published as a spell should now be excluded from any potential Psi class, because 'it has to be different'? Seems a little childish to me.
If you want to publish a new class for psionic powers that has a huge number of abilities that already exist as spells but marginally change them PURELY so they are not spells - absolute waste of paper and ink. Mage hand but 5ft shorter range and +2lbs weight capacity published as a whole new ability for Psionics to have as their not-cantrip? Why? Why all that effort to introduce a purely artificial and inconsequential difference between existing rules for spells and the same thing for psions?
No, you are saying that the Spellcasting mechanics should be the only form of “magic mechanics” in the game because you don’t want anything different.
We specifically want them to be different. That’s the point. If it isn’t going to be different then there’s no effing point. If all Psionics is going to be is a reimagined form of spellcasting, then go reimagine yourself some Spellcasting and don’t call it Psionics. If it isn’t going to actually be different, then they may as well not even bother.
So literally every effect that has been published as a spell should now be excluded from any potential Psi class, because 'it has to be different'? Seems a little childish to me.
If you want to publish a new class for psionic powers that has a huge number of abilities that already exist as spells but marginally change them PURELY so they are not spells - absolute waste of paper and ink. Mage hand but 5ft shorter range and +2lbs weight capacity published as a whole new ability for Psionics to have as their not-cantrip? Why? Why all that effort to introduce a purely artificial and inconsequential difference between existing rules for spells and the same thing for psions?
No, you miss the point. I absolutely do not want a telekinetic power that’s similar to telekinesis and another one that’s like catapult and another like Bigby’s hand and another that’s like...etc., etc....
I want 1 singular Telekinetic power that can do all of those things combined and starts off weak and then gets stronger like a class feature. They would have a different limiting factor unlike slots as well. It would be way simpler than people think and would take up fewer pages than Spellcasting does now.
And now that’s the third time you’ve called me childish. I would prefer you not resort to name calling, this isn’t the playground.
No, you miss the point. I absolutely do not want a telekinetic power that’s similar to telekinesis and another one that’s like catapult and another like Bigby’s hand and another that’s like...etc., etc....
I want 1 singular Telekinetic power that can do all of those things combined and starts off weak and then gets stronger like a class feature. They would have a different limiting factor unlike slots as well. It would be way simpler than people think and would take up fewer pages than Spellcasting does now.
And now that’s the third time you’ve called me childish. I would prefer you not resort to name calling, this isn’t the playground.
Mae culpa on name calling.
Still: The thing with spellcasting is that those pages? They're already printed. In the PHB. Referencing them is as simple as printing the spell names into the class features.
And when you want a power that scales and can do the functions of telekenesis, mage hand, catapult etc... is there a good reason, besides a grudge about overlap with magic, not to use the very same rules you reference in the description?
They start weak and get stronger effects as they go through spell levels. If you used spell point variant rules (already published) you can use any power at any time until you are exhausted and have only your baseline (cantrips) to rely on. Or no cantrip, if you prefer, like Paladins and Rangers.
There are some gaps for sure, but nothing that can't be solved with adding some new Psi specific 'spells' to the list and the space classes have in their subclass feature.
The Psi dice was nice as a concept, and maybe it should have been kept as some sort of strength modifier or ability - But the spell rules cover so much of what these subclasses would want to do anyway, and there is so much more potential variation from one character to the next if you open up that resource rather than exclude it on ideological grounds.
(The only hard part is that it limits the subclassrs to those that get their subclass feature and spellcasting at the same level, without some custom tweaks)
Brachiaraidos: you are not saying anything we have not all heard dozens of times before. As Mezzurah said, the exact arguments you're using are arguments we have fielded in something like five different threads now, at least for me personally.
You say our desire for psychic characters to be distinct and different from magic users is both pointless and selfish. Perhaps that's true. It's not going to change those desires, any more than it changed those desires the last dozen times I heard it. Please allow us our foibles as we allow you yours, especially when you've already won. Tasha's book includes new "psychic" spells, "psychic" subclasses that rely on spellcasting, and no allowance for psychic abilities being any different than magic, save that psychic characters are supposed to limit themselves to spells that imperfectly duplicate psychic abilities while regular mages can cherry-pick the best of our abilities as well as the best spells and leave us in the dust.
You win. Your goal is achieved. Psionics are completely indistinguishable from magic in Dungeons and Dragons Fifth Edition, save as a fluff-based justification to be strictly worse than a 'regular' character of your class.
Please. Move on. Not only will you fail to change our minds, you don't need to.
But I don’t want Psionics to reference Spellcasting at all. As I said, if it’s just going to be another form of Spellcasting then it’s better of gutshot and left to die slow in the gutter.
A Psi class that removed material components, called its abilities anything besides spells, and used a list of existing spells for their already understood and widely known effects rather than because of the word 'spell' seems practical, efficient and able to convey the widest possible array of powers while keeping the new class light on the rules glut.
I could see this working. Use verbiage such as "as though you had cast the _________ spell". But the limiter on how often would need to be something other than Spell Slots. Otherwise you quite literally are just casting spells. And I would expect a slew of new Psionic Abilities (unfortunately, codified in the rulebooks as spells) that are not available to Wizard or Sorcerer classes. Only some overlap with Warlock. That said, the only class feature we've talked about is the Psionic Powers class feature, which would roughly correlate to a Spellcasting Feature in another class.
Okay, okay, hear me out.
We build a class that can use cervain powers, a certain number of times per day.
We need to differentiate them in terms of strength, so we give each power a 'level'.
Levels then cost a different amount of energy to manifest - stands to reason.
And each power does a certain *Thing*, with a duration. Some of them you need to consistently concentrate on, some not.
Congratulations! You're using the exact same principles as spell casting, but you're a Psion.
No, that... that's not what I said at all. Though that's my fault, I can see why you'd think that from what I wrote. You wanted me to detail an entire system in excruciating detail, not just giving a brief example that sorta fit the question you were asking.
The concept of a psychic power is that it should largely be "always on", then you can do something stronger or more intense or whatever with it for a while every now and then, maybe the basic form turns off for a while after maybe it doesn't. So when you select a psychic power, it would be something like "At will, you can act as though you had cast Mage Hand. For you, it is invisible, it's range is your line of sight, and it is not affected by effects that would dispel magical forces like Antimagic Field, though any movements you make with it would still be blocked by effects such as Wall of Force." Probably the ability to use it as an attack some number of times per Long Rest, maybe Proficiency Bonus times. Then at various levels, you'd unlock the ability to use it to affect multiple and heavier objects.
But with effects like this, I'd imagine the list of actual Class Features would be pretty small, as each of the psychic powers would probably grow to be almost like a subclass itself. Maybe that's going to be the most unique thing about such a Psionic class, it doesn't have true subclasses. But you can pick several different power sets that are sort of like smaller but more focused subclasses, at various levels in the class.
Please. Move on. Not only will you fail to change our minds, you don't need to.
Aight, that one hit. A moment of self reflection and you know, there really isn't any need to bang on, is there?
I still think an open attitude to the possibilities of spells as rule templates for general supernatural abilities could seem like a positive thing for Psi in 5e.
But when WotC have done just that, you have probably heard it plenty.
But how exciting does Tasha's Cauldron of Everything look! Im an artificer fan through and through, and I am SO keen for just a tiny sprinkle more than just a De-Eberroning the text, like CFVs for example and hopefully a few extra spells that I'm surprised werent on the list to begin with.
Anyone else looking forward to/hoping for Lurker in the Depths Warlock? And with what changes?
Also Im going to struggle keeping my player from looking in the traps, puzzles and environments section (just as my DM will probs not want me to look there too haha)
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Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired) Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
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Okay, okay, hear me out.
We build a class that can use cervain powers, a certain number of times per day.
We need to differentiate them in terms of strength, so we give each power a 'level'.
Levels then cost a different amount of energy to manifest - stands to reason.
And each power does a certain *Thing*, with a duration. Some of them you need to consistently concentrate on, some not.
Congratulations! You're using the exact same principles as spell casting, but you're a Psion.
This is why a subclass specific overhaul of spellcasting is the reasonable and practical approach. Casting spells and using Psionic powers are so very very different in fluff... but so very very almost exactly the same mechanically.
The alternate rule of Spell Points could actually suit this very well, admittetly. Rather than having certain slots per level, you have a pool and every level costs a different amount to cast. But if that's too hard to balance, we'll, sorcerer already has rules to move around your slots...
What does “needed” even mean? The whole game doesn’t “need” to exist. But all of us want it to.
Likewise, of course an actual psion class isn’t “needed.” Neither is the wizard. But for a great many of us, if we want to play a psion and the DM or WotC or whoever tells us “just play this wizard subclass and pretend,” we will not enjoy playing that character.
Do you like warlocks? Play a wizard instead and tell us if it’s just as fun. You play a warlock because you don’t want to play a wizard. The fact that warlock already exists and psion doesn’t is nice for people who like warlocks, but it doesn’t mean people who already got theirs should be so dismissive of people who haven’t yet.
Ok, how about this.
No
You can do what you like.
We want new mechanics.
No amount of condescending attitude will change my mind.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I hate to break this to you Brachiaraidos, but your suggestion isn't a new one, it's one that we in the Psionics=/=Spellcasting camp hear multiple times in a single thread, for every thread it comes up in. It just does not fulfill the need that our specific bloc is looking for, and we have given a whole plethora of reasons why that is on multiple threads now.
On a different note, I've heard the conjuration spells have made it in, but I'm wondering what others (I'm assuming there's others) will be included?
These highlight the problem, and also why there will never be a solution or a middle ground that will ever please you.
You are treating magic as your own personal interpretation of what it SHOULD be, and not what it IS within the published rules, lore and mechanics of D&D. You are basing your viewpoint on a different fundamental reality to everybody that uses magic as published by WotC.
In D&D, telekinesis and mind reading are magic powers. End of. That's not up for debate. It will never be possible to publish Psi talents that will make you happy because you being happy with them is predicated on the nature of magic in D&D being fundementally different to what it actually IS.
Hopefully more non-fire elemental spells. I’m also interested in what changes may have happened to the CFVs between UA and publication.
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Would be interesting to see them rolling out new spells that never went through UA - but with the volume of content here that never saw test, it certainly seems possible.
Anything to let more casters become elememtal thrmed/focused is a boon for sure.
Brachiaraidos,
No, you are saying that the Spellcasting mechanics should be the only form of “magic mechanics” in the game because you don’t want anything different. Why can there not be a different form of “magic” that doesn’t use spells. Why can’t things like telekinesis and mind reading be both spells, and something different too?!?
We specifically want them to be different. That’s the point. If it isn’t going to be different then there’s no effing point. If all Psionics is going to be is a reimagined form of spellcasting, then go reimagine yourself some Spellcasting and don’t call it Psionics. If it isn’t going to actually be different, then they may as well not even bother.
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I guess we'll have to watch people playing it during the D&D Celebration on WotC's D&D twitch channel. The lineup includes some folks I watch who already have the preview. A long-time DM in one of the groups seems excited after looking through it.
So... there's that.
... but those folks in the celebration are also being sponsored. So... there's that, too. (I trust 'em to be honest, still, but transparency and all that...)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Now my order of Priority is:
I don’t twitch, so please do me a favor and keep me posted?
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So literally every effect that has been published as a spell should now be excluded from any potential Psi class, because 'it has to be different'? Seems a little childish to me.
If you want to publish a new class for psionic powers that has a huge number of abilities that already exist as spells but marginally change them PURELY so they are not spells - absolute waste of paper and ink. Mage hand but 5ft shorter range and +2lbs weight capacity published as a whole new ability for Psionics to have as their not-cantrip? Why? Why all that effort to introduce a purely artificial and inconsequential difference between existing rules for spells and the same thing for psions?
No, you miss the point. I absolutely do not want a telekinetic power that’s similar to telekinesis and another one that’s like catapult and another like Bigby’s hand and another that’s like...etc., etc....
I want 1 singular Telekinetic power that can do all of those things combined and starts off weak and then gets stronger like a class feature. They would have a different limiting factor unlike slots as well. It would be way simpler than people think and would take up fewer pages than Spellcasting does now.
And now that’s the third time you’ve called me childish. I would prefer you not resort to name calling, this isn’t the playground.
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Mae culpa on name calling.
Still: The thing with spellcasting is that those pages? They're already printed. In the PHB. Referencing them is as simple as printing the spell names into the class features.
And when you want a power that scales and can do the functions of telekenesis, mage hand, catapult etc... is there a good reason, besides a grudge about overlap with magic, not to use the very same rules you reference in the description?
They start weak and get stronger effects as they go through spell levels. If you used spell point variant rules (already published) you can use any power at any time until you are exhausted and have only your baseline (cantrips) to rely on. Or no cantrip, if you prefer, like Paladins and Rangers.
There are some gaps for sure, but nothing that can't be solved with adding some new Psi specific 'spells' to the list and the space classes have in their subclass feature.
The Psi dice was nice as a concept, and maybe it should have been kept as some sort of strength modifier or ability - But the spell rules cover so much of what these subclasses would want to do anyway, and there is so much more potential variation from one character to the next if you open up that resource rather than exclude it on ideological grounds.
(The only hard part is that it limits the subclassrs to those that get their subclass feature and spellcasting at the same level, without some custom tweaks)
Calm, Sposta. Let me try.
Brachiaraidos: you are not saying anything we have not all heard dozens of times before. As Mezzurah said, the exact arguments you're using are arguments we have fielded in something like five different threads now, at least for me personally.
You say our desire for psychic characters to be distinct and different from magic users is both pointless and selfish. Perhaps that's true. It's not going to change those desires, any more than it changed those desires the last dozen times I heard it. Please allow us our foibles as we allow you yours, especially when you've already won. Tasha's book includes new "psychic" spells, "psychic" subclasses that rely on spellcasting, and no allowance for psychic abilities being any different than magic, save that psychic characters are supposed to limit themselves to spells that imperfectly duplicate psychic abilities while regular mages can cherry-pick the best of our abilities as well as the best spells and leave us in the dust.
You win. Your goal is achieved. Psionics are completely indistinguishable from magic in Dungeons and Dragons Fifth Edition, save as a fluff-based justification to be strictly worse than a 'regular' character of your class.
Please. Move on. Not only will you fail to change our minds, you don't need to.
Please do not contact or message me.
But I don’t want Psionics to reference Spellcasting at all. As I said, if it’s just going to be another form of Spellcasting then it’s better of gutshot and left to die slow in the gutter.
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No, that... that's not what I said at all. Though that's my fault, I can see why you'd think that from what I wrote. You wanted me to detail an entire system in excruciating detail, not just giving a brief example that sorta fit the question you were asking.
The concept of a psychic power is that it should largely be "always on", then you can do something stronger or more intense or whatever with it for a while every now and then, maybe the basic form turns off for a while after maybe it doesn't. So when you select a psychic power, it would be something like "At will, you can act as though you had cast Mage Hand. For you, it is invisible, it's range is your line of sight, and it is not affected by effects that would dispel magical forces like Antimagic Field, though any movements you make with it would still be blocked by effects such as Wall of Force." Probably the ability to use it as an attack some number of times per Long Rest, maybe Proficiency Bonus times. Then at various levels, you'd unlock the ability to use it to affect multiple and heavier objects.
But with effects like this, I'd imagine the list of actual Class Features would be pretty small, as each of the psychic powers would probably grow to be almost like a subclass itself. Maybe that's going to be the most unique thing about such a Psionic class, it doesn't have true subclasses. But you can pick several different power sets that are sort of like smaller but more focused subclasses, at various levels in the class.
Aight, that one hit. A moment of self reflection and you know, there really isn't any need to bang on, is there?
I still think an open attitude to the possibilities of spells as rule templates for general supernatural abilities could seem like a positive thing for Psi in 5e.
But when WotC have done just that, you have probably heard it plenty.
Peace, friend.
....how are we back on this. Can we just not have this argument here anymore
*clears throat*
But how exciting does Tasha's Cauldron of Everything look! Im an artificer fan through and through, and I am SO keen for just a tiny sprinkle more than just a De-Eberroning the text, like CFVs for example and hopefully a few extra spells that I'm surprised werent on the list to begin with.
Anyone else looking forward to/hoping for Lurker in the Depths Warlock? And with what changes?
Also Im going to struggle keeping my player from looking in the traps, puzzles and environments section (just as my DM will probs not want me to look there too haha)
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired)
Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer
Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden
DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.