(oh god that thread is depressing and I refuse to see how it progressed)
I imagine you're right, it probably will be just a one-for-one trade of equivalent traits, but I would love if there were a list of alternate traits both generic and specific to each race one could pick and choose from, either via point buy or some other method that allows that level of customization.
I think it will look a lot like the Variant Class Features for the most part. There is already an example of this with the Tiefling. It is just a guess though.
Heh. Man. Can you imagine the shrieking we'll see here in the forums if Tasha's Allspice Soup Pot presents a blank-slate point buy approach to character creation, akin to something like Savage Worlds? The whole dang place'd go up like a bomb and people would veto the book out of existence.
Still. I'm honestly curious if it'll be more akin to D&D chasing pathfinder a little bit, given how much uncontestably better PF2e's character creation is than 5e's. Running PF2e sucks rocks, but even with how little I've delved into its character generation systems it's clear to see that PF2e has a vastly more interesting and engaging system for generating characters. I'd maybe peek at PF2e rules for chargen and consider that a maybe-preview of the direction Wizards may have decided to go with this one.
@Yurei1453: Oh, that would be delicious! It'd be like a small child getting candy and matches for their birthday.
@JoeltheWalrus: I haven't played PF2 myself, but from what I can gather it eschews traditional notions of race in RPGs and instead uses a smorgasbord of different traits a player can pick and choose from to create their character.
Heh. Man. Can you imagine the shrieking we'll see here in the forums if Tasha's Allspice Soup Pot presents a blank-slate point buy approach to character creation, akin to something like Savage Worlds? The whole dang place'd go up like a bomb and people would veto the book out of existence.
Still. I'm honestly curious if it'll be more akin to D&D chasing pathfinder a little bit, given how much uncontestably better PF2e's character creation is than 5e's. Running PF2e sucks rocks, but even with how little I've delved into its character generation systems it's clear to see that PF2e has a vastly more interesting and engaging system for generating characters. I'd maybe peek at PF2e rules for chargen and consider that a maybe-preview of the direction Wizards may have decided to go with this one.
As long as it's optional I wouldn't mind, it's when they gut all of the old stuff and make it the only official way to play and turn it into 4e that I'll be upset. I mean think about it, we can already homebrew anything we wish, so it's sort of already optional, they're just giving us an easier mechanism, but if it becomes the only way, I'll veto as suggested.
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Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
The Lineage system, or at least its implications, are being discussed in another thread already. One I saw you were familiar with, including how depressing it is.
If, however, you're asking for theories on how it might mechanically function?
I'll admit, part of me is hoping (vainly, but hoping) that it's an expansion of the Variant Point Buy system, in which different abilities or attributes are given different costs and a player can trade in bits of their species trait package that don't make sense for their story for extra character budget to buy things that do make sense for their story. An orc who was taken in as an infant by a kindly old priest after her orcish village was burned out by adventurers could trade in the orcish language and the Aggressive trait for, say, the Dwarvish language of her surrogate parent and proficiency in Religion, instead. A human character who's fluffed as an impossible strongman, this huge hulking mass of muscle that regularly competes with orcs or goliaths - and wins - could trade his bonus feat for Powerful Build and Expertise in Athletics, perhaps. Whatever happens to fit in his expanded Point Buy budget.
Of course, I don't actually think that's going to happen. What I think will happen is a set of very basic rules explaining how to trade things one-for-one to more closely model one's story. Language is super simple - did your elf not grow up in Elfland? Trade Elven for whatever language people speak where you did grow up. Frankly, DMs that don't allow that sort of thing as it is are wrong, and DDB should have already made it much easier to trade out "genetic" languages than it is. Elsewise I imagine it'll be a case of "trade things one for one, and when there is no one-for-one trade, such as when evicting Elf Weapon Training from the elf that didn't grow up in Elfland, come up with something approximately the same and trade for that instead." It'll be oversimplified and restrictive in its own way, but still much better than what we've currently got.
I've never played Pathfinder. Could someone who has elaborate on how characters are created?
The entire pathfinder character creation system involves choosing your nearly every single feature that you get access to from your race, to your class to your bg and everything in between. Nearly nothing about a character is set in stone and involves some agency of choice in it.
YOu could have 2 human fighters who take the same background, sub-ancestry and 'subclass' (subclasses are not as defining as they are in 5e) and the two characters could have absolutely 0 overlap in ths features and traits if you so desired.
Big Question: If they reprint a subclass or spell or race that I had previously bought, do I have to buy it again for the updated version???
I wouldn't assume so, no. They're not updating them, just reprinting them. The tool tips (in this forum) or spell/subclass info (in Character Creator) would still load the content you need, regardless of its source. However, I can't comment whether the micro-transactions you possibly already spent on the initially printed content will be deducted from the total cost of TCoE on DnDBeyond's marketplace or not.
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired) Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
I've never played Pathfinder. Could someone who has elaborate on how characters are created?
I was curious and found a group to play with. I used HeroLab online to build my character in an hour or so, and that was only ‘fast’ because the tool filters options out based on what is available, even then the options change as you level and build up your skill levels. It would have taken a week without a digital tool. The player book is over 600 pages and there are a half dozen additional player compendiums. Honestly, it’s too many options for my taste. 5e has added a ton in the 5 year’s I’ve been playing it, but it seems like nothing compared to PF2e. If 5e was a Barnes and Nobles, PF2e is Amazon.
He was built for level 4. Just for fun, I took the build to 20, 1 level at a time, selecting options as I went. The biggest thing I learned from that is a) you have a million things to keep track of and b) PF2e has stupid levels of number bloat. His AC at that level was 41 (low by the way) and every skill had +26-36. The complexity of character options and the insane numbers killed any interest I had in the system.
puffin forest has a good 45 minute video on the system overall on YouTube video and he also talks about how complex the combat can be too.
Big Question: If they reprint a subclass or spell or race that I had previously bought, do I have to buy it again for the updated version???
I imagine that you will need to purchase the new book of you want the new version. Much like you don’t get access to the Eberron or Wildmount Orcs just because you own Volo’s.
If WotC uses Spellcasting to represent Psionics then I will ban it at my table.
If they do not, I will ban it at mine. We don't need a separate system for psionics.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
What sort of Magical Environments or puzzles are people hoping for? I'd love to see them tackle a maze. "CRINGE" I know! But I'd love to see their official take on one that can be used in both battle mat and Theatre of the Mind format.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired) Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
If WotC uses Spellcasting to represent Psionics then I will ban it at my table.
If they do not, I will ban it at mine. We don't need a separate system for psionics.
Of it isn’t gonna be different then they might as well not even bother.
I'm cool with that option.
I'm pretty sure in one of his videos that Crawford stated that their feedback was pretty overwhelmingly in the camp of "no new mechanics needed for psionics", so I have to assume that the group that wants something unique is a very vocal minority, and one I doubt that WotC is going to cater to at this point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
What sort of Magical Environments or puzzles are people hoping for? I'd love to see them tackle a maze. "CRINGE" I know! But I'd love to see their official take on one that can be used in both battle mat and Theatre of the Mind format.
Some Feywild shenanigans would be rad too! Beyond the role tables in the PHB and DMG.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired) Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
If WotC uses Spellcasting to represent Psionics then I will ban it at my table.
If they do not, I will ban it at mine. We don't need a separate system for psionics.
Of it isn’t gonna be different then they might as well not even bother.
I'm cool with that option.
I'm pretty sure in one of his videos that Crawford stated that their feedback was pretty overwhelmingly in the camp of "no new mechanics needed for psionics", so I have to assume that the group that wants something unique is a very vocal minority, and one I doubt that WotC is going to cater to at this point.
I think you’re right. **** ‘em. I’ve already hated WotC for decades.
Not a fan of WotC capitulating to try pulling in people they're not going to win over with this, but that's nothing new. I'm lookin at you MTG. But, it's a new book, maybe I'll take a look when Jeff gets his copy to see if it's got anything actually worthwhile.
If WotC uses Spellcasting to represent Psionics then I will ban it at my table.
If they do not, I will ban it at mine. We don't need a separate system for psionics.
Of it isn’t gonna be different then they might as well not even bother.
I'm cool with that option.
I'm pretty sure in one of his videos that Crawford stated that their feedback was pretty overwhelmingly in the camp of "no new mechanics needed for psionics", so I have to assume that the group that wants something unique is a very vocal minority, and one I doubt that WotC is going to cater to at this point.
I think you’re right. **** ‘em. I’ve already hated WotC for decades.
Nothing wrong with that. There's a lot worth missing from TSR...and a lot that's not so much worth missing. I'm not sure which camp I am farther into. WotC just generally annoys me because they do things for little to no reason. Whether I like something or not, at least if there's a good reason for it, I can live with it. Far too much stupidity comes out of WotC and they really have no good reason for having done it.
They did a pretty bang up job with 5e in general, but at this point I think it's gone to their head, and they don't try to avoid stupidity.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
What sort of Magical Environments or puzzles are people hoping for? I'd love to see them tackle a maze. "CRINGE" I know! But I'd love to see their official take on one that can be used in both battle mat and Theatre of the Mind format.
Some Feywild shenanigans would be rad too! Beyond the role tables in the PHB and DMG.
Or maybe as the “young merfolk lounging” teaser art suggests, some cool underwater environments, further to those found in Saltmarsh could be cool too!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired) Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
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I think it will look a lot like the Variant Class Features for the most part. There is already an example of this with the Tiefling. It is just a guess though.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Heh. Man. Can you imagine the shrieking we'll see here in the forums if Tasha's Allspice Soup Pot presents a blank-slate point buy approach to character creation, akin to something like Savage Worlds? The whole dang place'd go up like a bomb and people would veto the book out of existence.
Still. I'm honestly curious if it'll be more akin to D&D chasing pathfinder a little bit, given how much uncontestably better PF2e's character creation is than 5e's. Running PF2e sucks rocks, but even with how little I've delved into its character generation systems it's clear to see that PF2e has a vastly more interesting and engaging system for generating characters. I'd maybe peek at PF2e rules for chargen and consider that a maybe-preview of the direction Wizards may have decided to go with this one.
Please do not contact or message me.
I've never played Pathfinder. Could someone who has elaborate on how characters are created?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
@Yurei1453: Oh, that would be delicious! It'd be like a small child getting candy and matches for their birthday.
@JoeltheWalrus: I haven't played PF2 myself, but from what I can gather it eschews traditional notions of race in RPGs and instead uses a smorgasbord of different traits a player can pick and choose from to create their character.
As long as it's optional I wouldn't mind, it's when they gut all of the old stuff and make it the only official way to play and turn it into 4e that I'll be upset. I mean think about it, we can already homebrew anything we wish, so it's sort of already optional, they're just giving us an easier mechanism, but if it becomes the only way, I'll veto as suggested.
Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
I was curious, so i peep at it. Instant regret
The entire pathfinder character creation system involves choosing your nearly every single feature that you get access to from your race, to your class to your bg and everything in between. Nearly nothing about a character is set in stone and involves some agency of choice in it.
YOu could have 2 human fighters who take the same background, sub-ancestry and 'subclass' (subclasses are not as defining as they are in 5e) and the two characters could have absolutely 0 overlap in ths features and traits if you so desired.
Big Question: If they reprint a subclass or spell or race that I had previously bought, do I have to buy it again for the updated version???
I wouldn't assume so, no. They're not updating them, just reprinting them. The tool tips (in this forum) or spell/subclass info (in Character Creator) would still load the content you need, regardless of its source. However, I can't comment whether the micro-transactions you possibly already spent on the initially printed content will be deducted from the total cost of TCoE on DnDBeyond's marketplace or not.
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired)
Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer
Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden
DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
I was curious and found a group to play with. I used HeroLab online to build my character in an hour or so, and that was only ‘fast’ because the tool filters options out based on what is available, even then the options change as you level and build up your skill levels. It would have taken a week without a digital tool. The player book is over 600 pages and there are a half dozen additional player compendiums. Honestly, it’s too many options for my taste. 5e has added a ton in the 5 year’s I’ve been playing it, but it seems like nothing compared to PF2e. If 5e was a Barnes and Nobles, PF2e is Amazon.
He was built for level 4. Just for fun, I took the build to 20, 1 level at a time, selecting options as I went. The biggest thing I learned from that is a) you have a million things to keep track of and b) PF2e has stupid levels of number bloat. His AC at that level was 41 (low by the way) and every skill had +26-36. The complexity of character options and the insane numbers killed any interest I had in the system.
puffin forest has a good 45 minute video on the system overall on YouTube video and he also talks about how complex the combat can be too.
I imagine that you will need to purchase the new book of you want the new version. Much like you don’t get access to the Eberron or Wildmount Orcs just because you own Volo’s.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
If they do not, I will ban it at mine. We don't need a separate system for psionics.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Of it isn’t gonna be different then they might as well not even bother.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Excellent. Thats been sorted! Lets move on.
What sort of Magical Environments or puzzles are people hoping for? I'd love to see them tackle a maze. "CRINGE" I know! But I'd love to see their official take on one that can be used in both battle mat and Theatre of the Mind format.
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired)
Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer
Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden
DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
I'm cool with that option.
I'm pretty sure in one of his videos that Crawford stated that their feedback was pretty overwhelmingly in the camp of "no new mechanics needed for psionics", so I have to assume that the group that wants something unique is a very vocal minority, and one I doubt that WotC is going to cater to at this point.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Some Feywild shenanigans would be rad too! Beyond the role tables in the PHB and DMG.
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired)
Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer
Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden
DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
I think you’re right. **** ‘em. I’ve already hated WotC for decades.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Not a fan of WotC capitulating to try pulling in people they're not going to win over with this, but that's nothing new. I'm lookin at you MTG. But, it's a new book, maybe I'll take a look when Jeff gets his copy to see if it's got anything actually worthwhile.
Nothing wrong with that. There's a lot worth missing from TSR...and a lot that's not so much worth missing. I'm not sure which camp I am farther into. WotC just generally annoys me because they do things for little to no reason. Whether I like something or not, at least if there's a good reason for it, I can live with it. Far too much stupidity comes out of WotC and they really have no good reason for having done it.
They did a pretty bang up job with 5e in general, but at this point I think it's gone to their head, and they don't try to avoid stupidity.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Or maybe as the “young merfolk lounging” teaser art suggests, some cool underwater environments, further to those found in Saltmarsh could be cool too!
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired)
Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer
Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden
DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.