Personaly, l think they should be add-ons for races, not separate races. like, rather then a race, it could be a optional setting attached to other races. For example: half-elf dampir, Gnome Hexblood, Reborn goliath.
That way, if a player wants to have their character become, say, a dampir, either in their backstory or during the campaign, they dont have to give up their race abuiltys, and gain something extra. Lets use the example of the half elf again. You have a normal half elf, and they just lost a fight with strad (or some other vampire). Now, rather then be killed, strad saw some use for the half elf, and infected them. Not quite a full vampire, but no longer fully mortal, either. Now, you have the normal half elf, but with a extra 5ft of movement, can climb walls, and see color in the dark, while not needing to eat anything but some blood, and not needing to sleep.
Honestly, these sound more like a feat then a whole race.
(Edit to address comments: Though if it were a feat, it would be up to the dm to allow it. for example, they could allow a Vuman to take it as their bonus feat, or allow a halfling who survived a vampire attack to become a dampire, either as a free feat at lv one, or as something mid game. For example, a strange road side potion shop, which sells these as one per person potions, or as a result of being defeated by a vampire, one or more of the party has become a dampire, now its up to them to either live with this change, or go on a adventure to cure them. Also, you count as undead, so spells like turn undead will effect you. And this is still play test, so they could add some down sides to these, like sunlight sensitivity to the dampire. This was made simply to voice my opinions and ideas on the UA, and l never expected this thread to blow up like it has (though l love that it has) Also, a DM can decide to give a feat whenever they want, so even lf the party are, say, level 6, the dm could still have a party member become a dampire, either with the 2 ideas above, or something else. What matters is telling a fun story. If that means the fighter who died 3 sessions ago is now a "reborn", or the cleric gets attacked and turned into a dampire, or the fighter takeing a level in Feylock, thus turning into a Hexblood, then so be it! )
(in short, l think Dampirs should haave advantage to charm and require less sleep (like a elf) (or a slightly altered Deathless Nature from the Reborn UA)
(Also, l think being undead should make you immune to poison and disease, not just advantage to saves against them)
in other words, they should be treated as sub races, like Vuman or wood elf, but available for every race/sub race. Yes, l know that would be harder on a balanceing and implementing stand point, but this is just me shairing my thoughts, not a pitch meeting to WotC. (though l hope this idea, in one way or another, reaches them)
What you're seeming to be suggesting is something 5e is trying to stay away from called "Templates". 3.5 had templates that could be overlaid over class and race. It was a good idea but a mess to manage. I mean a template makes a character stronger than any base character without a template.
What you're seeming to be suggesting is something 5e is trying to stay away from called "Templates". 3.5 had templates that could be overlaid over class and race. It was a good idea but a mess to manage. I mean a template makes a character stronger than any base character without a template.
Which, without going into detail, 3rd ed compensated for with the equivalent class level principle. I want to point out that Rime of the Frostmaiden gives the PCs a chance to become werebears, so 5E trying to stay away from this sort of thing is apparently not an absolute rule.
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I could have sworn that the Theros book had something like a template for a PC that becomes one of the Returned (basically the Theros equivalent of undead), but now I can't find it. Am I crazy? Did they take it out?
It seems balanced to get gothic lineage traits as a feat.
For example at a higher level take the Dhampir feat, sotospeak, to gain Spider Climb at-will and Vampiric Bite.
In this way, a feat is like a "template".
And Darkvision, and a 35 ft speed, and the undead type. Darkvision, a climb speed and increased speed alone is arguably more powerful than a good number of existing feats.
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It seems balanced to get gothic lineage traits as a feat.
For example at a higher level take the Dhampir feat, sotospeak, to gain Spider Climb at-will and Vampiric Bite.
In this way, a feat is like a "template".
And Darkvision, and a 35 ft speed, and the undead type. Darkvision, a climb speed and increased speed alone is arguably more powerful than a good number of existing feats.
I consider the extra speed to very powerful. (I myself enjoy the abuse of "kiting".) So I worry about balance if adding the speed.
But Undead creature type, is mostly a ribbon. And Darkvision is no problem, being roughly equivalent to one skill,
So actually, if the Dhampir feat grants: Undead, Darkvision, Spider Climb, and Vampiric Bite − that seems a solid feat!
... climb speed and increased speed alone is arguably more powerful than a good number of existing feats.
Spider Climb is a slot-2 spell. It reminds me of Fey Teleportation where slot-2 spell per short rest is a half-feat. Admittedly, always on is more powerful than 10-minutes per short rest. Meanwhile the Dhampir Spider Climb delays to Level 3, so its power is delayed until slot-2 spells become available. All-in-all, I consider the Spider Climb to be a half-feat, albeit slightly overpowered.
Meanwhile the Vampiric Bite and the rest makes up the other half of the feat.
I could have sworn that the Theros book had something like a template for a PC that becomes one of the Returned (basically the Theros equivalent of undead), but now I can't find it. Am I crazy? Did they take it out?
The metric to determine the worth of a feat, is whether you would swap out a +2 score improvement for it. Most of the feats in the Players Handbook are underpowered, and I wouldnt lose a +2 for it. But certain feats are extra good and I would be happy to swap. The tough choices that can go both ways are closer to balanced.
Personaly, l think they should be add-ons for races, not separate races. like, rather then a race, it could be a optional setting attached to other races. For example: half-elf dampir, Gnome Hexblood, Reborn goliath.
That way, if a player wants to have their character become, say, a dampir, either in their backstory or during the campaign, they dont have to give up their race abuiltys, and gain something extra. Lets use the example of the half elf again. You have a normal half elf, and they just lost a fight with strad (or some other vampire). Now, rather then be killed, strad saw some use for the half elf, and infected them. Not quite a full vampire, but no longer fully mortal, either. Now, you have the normal half elf, but with a extra 5ft of movement, can climb walls, and see color in the dark, while not needing to eat anything but some blood, and not needing to sleep.
Honestly, this sounds more like a feat then a whole race. (in short, l think Dampirs should have advantage to charm and require less sleep (like a elf) (or a slightly altered Deathless Nature from the Reborn UA)
(Also, l think being undead should make you immune to poison and disease, not just advantage to saves against them)
in other words, they should be treated as sub races, like Vuman or wood elf, but available for every race/sub race. Yes, l know that would be harder on a balanceing and implementing stand point, but this is just me shairing my thoughts, not a pitch meeting to WotC. (though l hope this idea, in one way or another, reaches them)
I really get you on this my concern is say you want one of these new lineages or the one in Tasha's but you want the character to be a goliath, you lose everything that is a goliath the large frame feature the damage reduction feature. I don't even care about the loss of a skill but losing everything that makes a goliath is to much, in the UA they talk about the dragonborns breath weapon but if your a reborn dragonborn you lose that breath weapon. I mean why did they even bring that up in the UA unless they want you to potentially retain those in a book down the road. Like you get the racial stuff (with no ASI's or skills/languages) then you choose a lineage that has the ASI's, skills/language in them
I could have sworn that the Theros book had something like a template for a PC that becomes one of the Returned (basically the Theros equivalent of undead), but now I can't find it. Am I crazy? Did they take it out?
The metric to determine the worth of a feat, is whether you would swap out a +2 score improvement for it. Most of the feats in the Players Handbook are underpowered, and I wouldnt lose a +2 for it. But certain feats are extra good and I would be happy to swap. The tough choices that can go both ways are closer to balanced.
It depends a bit on the rolls and the class, but I usually don't spend more than 2 ASIs on +2s. As metrics go, this one doesn't seem to mean much.
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I'm in full agreement on Lineages as add-on templates rather than races, and as in 3.5, the issue is balance. On our table lycanthropes, vampires, half-dragons are, and soon the Gothic Lineages will be, 5E templates, and homebrew (free) feats on DDB. Wish they had a template feature on DDB, since they are 5E official for at least half-dragons.
In our experience, the key is making sure any drawbacks are followed, and not waved off any time they are more than a minor inconvenience. See if they still think being a werewolf is a free buff after they go into a rage & immediately attack the town watch merely because the squad leader put his hands on the party's rogue during a bad phase of the moon.
Our issue with that is (short version) aarakocra & centaurs. Why can I no longer fly? Where did my back legs go? Losing those traits due to Lineage curb-stomps suspension of disbelief / in-game consistency, IMO. So we got rid of the ASIs & language portions, have reasonable disadvantages (or just charge a feat if you're not up for having / enforcing disadvantages), and if it is character appropriate, go for it. Oh, and don't mind the hunters. They only want to (re)kill the Undead/Fey/Construct half of you. Probably.
Way better than having all former humans, elves, dwarves, dragonborn, tortles, orks, genasi, & gith (and so on) become statistically identical when they crawl out of a grave as Reborn.
The metric to determine the worth of a feat, is whether you would swap out a +2 score improvement for it. Most of the feats in the Players Handbook are underpowered, and I wouldnt lose a +2 for it. But certain feats are extra good and I would be happy to swap. The tough choices that can go both ways are closer to balanced.
It depends a bit on the rolls and the class, but I usually don't spend more than 2 ASIs on +2s. As metrics go, this one doesn't seem to mean much.
In any case, it is the metric. I remember during the designing of 5e, Mearls describing how the feat will be a sizable amount for a decision point, equivalent to a +2. Now in the game, while the character advances and gains an ability score improvement, the player decides whether to swap it out for a feat. The value of the feat mechanically compares to the value of a +2.
In some sense the score improvement itself diminishes in value while advancing, since after the primary and secondary abilities max out at 20, the other abilities have less impact if reaching 20.
Here is one redditers calibration of the official feats in the Players Handbook and elsewhere, tweaking them to better balance them. It has good reviews from char ops and others.
There are, of course, one or two feats that I would further tweak for even better balance. (The designer seems to give the Fighter extra love.) But generally, the calibration is excellent.
A look at the pdf helps give a better sense of what kinds of things the value of a feat can be worth.
Personally, I think giving all of that as a feat is OP. Increased speed, climbing speed and vampiric bite are reasonably strong by themselves, worth more than a half feat. The extra Undead type, I haven't researched fully. It could be an advantage or a disadvantage.
However, adding a more powerful version of a 2nd level spell on demand is really powerful, and this will be available as soon as you take the feat unless you are a custom lineage or variant human. Note: It doesn't say you can cast Spider Climb. It doesn't say you need to maintain concentration, have free hands or components or anything else, you can just do the equivalent of spider climb at will. That's strong! It would, IMHO, instantly become one of the strongest feats in the game. While I don't think it would be game breaking, I think it could be close.
Personally, I think giving all of that as a feat is OP. Increased speed, climbing speed and vampiric bite are reasonably strong by themselves, worth more than a half feat. The extra Undead type, I haven't researched fully. It could be an advantage or a disadvantage.
However, adding a more powerful version of a 2nd level spell on demand is really powerful, and this will be available as soon as you take the feat unless you are a custom lineage or variant human. Note: It doesn't say you can cast Spider Climb. It doesn't say you need to maintain concentration, have free hands or components or anything else, you can just do the equivalent of spider climb at will. That's strong! It would, IMHO, instantly become one of the strongest feats in the game. While I don't think it would be game breaking, I think it could be close.
Judging by the Player Handbook feat, Mobile, that grants a +10 feet speed as part of a feat, the +5 feet speed increase of the Dhampir seems to be viewed as less than a half-feat. Perhaps the +5 speed is about 3 proficiencies.
Regarding Spider Climb, it is less powerful than fly at will. Is the Aaracocra too powerful?
Personally, I think giving all of that as a feat is OP. Increased speed, climbing speed and vampiric bite are reasonably strong by themselves, worth more than a half feat. The extra Undead type, I haven't researched fully. It could be an advantage or a disadvantage.
However, adding a more powerful version of a 2nd level spell on demand is really powerful, and this will be available as soon as you take the feat unless you are a custom lineage or variant human. Note: It doesn't say you can cast Spider Climb. It doesn't say you need to maintain concentration, have free hands or components or anything else, you can just do the equivalent of spider climb at will. That's strong! It would, IMHO, instantly become one of the strongest feats in the game. While I don't think it would be game breaking, I think it could be close.
Judging by the Player Handbook feat, Mobile, that grants a +10 feet speed as part of a feat, the +5 feet speed increase of the Dhampir seems to be viewed as less than a half-feat. Perhaps the +5 speed is about 3 proficiencies.
Yes, but they didnt just say the speed was half a feat, it was the speed + the bite attack was half a feat. And i agree that having an always on improved version of a 2nd level spell effect would push this over the top as a single feat (any ranged character would be able to run up a cliffside/wall/ect to avoid attacks while having their hands open to shoot a bow or cast a spell, arguably they can grapple and pull someone up the wall to drop them as a free action ect)
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Personaly, l think they should be add-ons for races, not separate races. like, rather then a race, it could be a optional setting attached to other races. For example: half-elf dampir, Gnome Hexblood, Reborn goliath.
That way, if a player wants to have their character become, say, a dampir, either in their backstory or during the campaign, they dont have to give up their race abuiltys, and gain something extra. Lets use the example of the half elf again. You have a normal half elf, and they just lost a fight with strad (or some other vampire). Now, rather then be killed, strad saw some use for the half elf, and infected them. Not quite a full vampire, but no longer fully mortal, either. Now, you have the normal half elf, but with a extra 5ft of movement, can climb walls, and see color in the dark, while not needing to eat anything but some blood, and not needing to sleep.
Honestly, these sound more like a feat then a whole race.
(Edit to address comments: Though if it were a feat, it would be up to the dm to allow it. for example, they could allow a Vuman to take it as their bonus feat, or allow a halfling who survived a vampire attack to become a dampire, either as a free feat at lv one, or as something mid game. For example, a strange road side potion shop, which sells these as one per person potions, or as a result of being defeated by a vampire, one or more of the party has become a dampire, now its up to them to either live with this change, or go on a adventure to cure them. Also, you count as undead, so spells like turn undead will effect you. And this is still play test, so they could add some down sides to these, like sunlight sensitivity to the dampire. This was made simply to voice my opinions and ideas on the UA, and l never expected this thread to blow up like it has (though l love that it has) Also, a DM can decide to give a feat whenever they want, so even lf the party are, say, level 6, the dm could still have a party member become a dampire, either with the 2 ideas above, or something else. What matters is telling a fun story. If that means the fighter who died 3 sessions ago is now a "reborn", or the cleric gets attacked and turned into a dampire, or the fighter takeing a level in Feylock, thus turning into a Hexblood, then so be it! )
(in short, l think Dampirs should haave advantage to charm and require less sleep (like a elf) (or a slightly altered Deathless Nature from the Reborn UA)
(Also, l think being undead should make you immune to poison and disease, not just advantage to saves against them)
in other words, they should be treated as sub races, like Vuman or wood elf, but available for every race/sub race. Yes, l know that would be harder on a balanceing and implementing stand point, but this is just me shairing my thoughts, not a pitch meeting to WotC. (though l hope this idea, in one way or another, reaches them)
What you're seeming to be suggesting is something 5e is trying to stay away from called "Templates". 3.5 had templates that could be overlaid over class and race. It was a good idea but a mess to manage. I mean a template makes a character stronger than any base character without a template.
Which, without going into detail, 3rd ed compensated for with the equivalent class level principle. I want to point out that Rime of the Frostmaiden gives the PCs a chance to become werebears, so 5E trying to stay away from this sort of thing is apparently not an absolute rule.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I could have sworn that the Theros book had something like a template for a PC that becomes one of the Returned (basically the Theros equivalent of undead), but now I can't find it. Am I crazy? Did they take it out?
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It seems balanced to get gothic lineage traits as a feat.
For example at a higher level take the Dhampir feat, sotospeak, to gain Spider Climb at-will and Vampiric Bite.
In this way, a feat is like a "template".
he / him
And Darkvision, and a 35 ft speed, and the undead type. Darkvision, a climb speed and increased speed alone is arguably more powerful than a good number of existing feats.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I consider the extra speed to very powerful. (I myself enjoy the abuse of "kiting".) So I worry about balance if adding the speed.
But Undead creature type, is mostly a ribbon. And Darkvision is no problem, being roughly equivalent to one skill,
So actually, if the Dhampir feat grants: Undead, Darkvision, Spider Climb, and Vampiric Bite − that seems a solid feat!
he / him
Spider Climb is a slot-2 spell. It reminds me of Fey Teleportation where slot-2 spell per short rest is a half-feat. Admittedly, always on is more powerful than 10-minutes per short rest. Meanwhile the Dhampir Spider Climb delays to Level 3, so its power is delayed until slot-2 spells become available. All-in-all, I consider the Spider Climb to be a half-feat, albeit slightly overpowered.
Meanwhile the Vampiric Bite and the rest makes up the other half of the feat.
Dhampir feat
• Spider Climb (about 4 maybe 5 proficiencies)
• Vampiric Bite (about 3 proficiencies)
• Darkvision (about 1 proficiency)
• Undead (0 proficiency)
he / him
Were you thinking of this from wildemount?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/egtw/character-options#HollowOne
Some feats are better than others.
The metric to determine the worth of a feat, is whether you would swap out a +2 score improvement for it. Most of the feats in the Players Handbook are underpowered, and I wouldnt lose a +2 for it. But certain feats are extra good and I would be happy to swap. The tough choices that can go both ways are closer to balanced.
he / him
I really get you on this my concern is say you want one of these new lineages or the one in Tasha's but you want the character to be a goliath, you lose everything that is a goliath the large frame feature the damage reduction feature. I don't even care about the loss of a skill but losing everything that makes a goliath is to much, in the UA they talk about the dragonborns breath weapon but if your a reborn dragonborn you lose that breath weapon. I mean why did they even bring that up in the UA unless they want you to potentially retain those in a book down the road. Like you get the racial stuff (with no ASI's or skills/languages) then you choose a lineage that has the ASI's, skills/language in them
YES. I knew it was undeadish and got Hollow One mixed up with Returned.
Anyway, the "Supernatural Gift" is a mechanic I figured they'd use to handle stuff like weres/undead/etc. I guess they decided against it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It depends a bit on the rolls and the class, but I usually don't spend more than 2 ASIs on +2s. As metrics go, this one doesn't seem to mean much.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'm in full agreement on Lineages as add-on templates rather than races, and as in 3.5, the issue is balance. On our table lycanthropes, vampires, half-dragons are, and soon the Gothic Lineages will be, 5E templates, and homebrew (free) feats on DDB. Wish they had a template feature on DDB, since they are 5E official for at least half-dragons.
In our experience, the key is making sure any drawbacks are followed, and not waved off any time they are more than a minor inconvenience. See if they still think being a werewolf is a free buff after they go into a rage & immediately attack the town watch merely because the squad leader put his hands on the party's rogue during a bad phase of the moon.
Our issue with that is (short version) aarakocra & centaurs. Why can I no longer fly? Where did my back legs go? Losing those traits due to Lineage curb-stomps suspension of disbelief / in-game consistency, IMO. So we got rid of the ASIs & language portions, have reasonable disadvantages (or just charge a feat if you're not up for having / enforcing disadvantages), and if it is character appropriate, go for it. Oh, and don't mind the hunters. They only want to (re)kill the Undead/Fey/Construct half of you. Probably.
Way better than having all former humans, elves, dwarves, dragonborn, tortles, orks, genasi, & gith (and so on) become statistically identical when they crawl out of a grave as Reborn.
In any case, it is the metric. I remember during the designing of 5e, Mearls describing how the feat will be a sizable amount for a decision point, equivalent to a +2. Now in the game, while the character advances and gains an ability score improvement, the player decides whether to swap it out for a feat. The value of the feat mechanically compares to the value of a +2.
In some sense the score improvement itself diminishes in value while advancing, since after the primary and secondary abilities max out at 20, the other abilities have less impact if reaching 20.
he / him
Here is one redditers calibration of the official feats in the Players Handbook and elsewhere, tweaking them to better balance them. It has good reviews from char ops and others.
There are, of course, one or two feats that I would further tweak for even better balance. (The designer seems to give the Fighter extra love.) But generally, the calibration is excellent.
A look at the pdf helps give a better sense of what kinds of things the value of a feat can be worth.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/gy18jh/phb_xge_feats_rebalanced_v11/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wXMOD_ISkXeXu-Pp1aYxSD7XrM3hQRqo/view
he / him
Personally, I think giving all of that as a feat is OP. Increased speed, climbing speed and vampiric bite are reasonably strong by themselves, worth more than a half feat. The extra Undead type, I haven't researched fully. It could be an advantage or a disadvantage.
However, adding a more powerful version of a 2nd level spell on demand is really powerful, and this will be available as soon as you take the feat unless you are a custom lineage or variant human. Note: It doesn't say you can cast Spider Climb. It doesn't say you need to maintain concentration, have free hands or components or anything else, you can just do the equivalent of spider climb at will. That's strong! It would, IMHO, instantly become one of the strongest feats in the game. While I don't think it would be game breaking, I think it could be close.
Judging by the Player Handbook feat, Mobile, that grants a +10 feet speed as part of a feat, the +5 feet speed increase of the Dhampir seems to be viewed as less than a half-feat. Perhaps the +5 speed is about 3 proficiencies.
Regarding Spider Climb, it is less powerful than fly at will. Is the Aaracocra too powerful?
he / him
Yes, but they didnt just say the speed was half a feat, it was the speed + the bite attack was half a feat. And i agree that having an always on improved version of a 2nd level spell effect would push this over the top as a single feat (any ranged character would be able to run up a cliffside/wall/ect to avoid attacks while having their hands open to shoot a bow or cast a spell, arguably they can grapple and pull someone up the wall to drop them as a free action ect)