I am aware. I am trying to explain my sticker shock and the sticker shock others are probably feeling. I'm not asking for anything free, I'm not even asking for discounts. I understand that the price is the price and that it must be paid if you want access to the content. I know I can sit down at a table or in a chatroom with my friends and play tonight if everyone can make the schedule work.
But I'm seeing people here being actively hostile and degrading to each other, falling just short of insults. I suppose I was hoping to smooth the tension a little, remind everyone that one person's situation is not necessarily everyone. That attacking each other and being rude is falling short of the best we can be by long miles and not small steps.
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GM of The Bonus Role - We are playing a 5E game set in my homebrew world of Audra check us out Sunday's at 10 AM CST and follow us at the following social media links. https://www.twitch.tv/thebonusrole @BonusRole
Everyone crying over the cost needs to chill. The cost of the books is pretty decent, and the fact that the core ones will be on sale at launch points to the good chance that other books will go on sale for special events at times. Not to mention it takes a LOT of work to convert these books to a nice looking searchable digital format, and these people need paid for their work. I saw one post about all the core books plus an adventure is around 120 bucks. Well, take that 120, divide it by 4 (assuming you have a group willing to split the cost) and thats 30 bucks each for each person for HOURS worth of entertainment, much longer than a movie or even a standard 50 hour console or PC RPG. Going by that math for a 4 person playgroup, and the cost turns into 75 cents an hour. Less than a dollar per person per hour. Go to a theater or find a modern game that will give you that much value. You prolly won't find it.
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I use summon instrument to summon my kettle drum, hold it overhead like Donkey Kong, and chuck it at the nearest kobold.
Please understand those of you defending Curse/D&DB. Not all of us have access to unlimited funds or the ability to prioritize their hobby over their bills and life. So this is a bit of a sticker shock to some of us. I personally have been playing D&D since AD&D 2nd Edition. I've bought the books, I've rolled the dice, I've even gotten a few of the tool sets when they came out for 3rd edition. I like D&DB, I have been checking out its progress and telling my friends and family about it. I will use it to toss character ideas together, but as someone who is a full-time student, who is paying a mortgage, that buy in is going to hit me hard. I don't have a regular group, and I don't have a large one, and I can not go to them and say "hey buy me this" or "help me buy this" when we on average get to game maybe once or twice a month. I see a lot of people on here ragging on those of us who are concerned about the price. I appreciate that you feel the need to defend this, I really do. But just as you are free to defend we are free to express our concerns.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to say it's too expensive for you. I was certainly in the same boat not that long ago. In the end, from Curse's perspective, it will be whether they have chosen a price point that gets enough of an audience to make a reasonable profit. I have a feeling they have. But they'll find out soon enough I think.
I'm curious about the Unearthed Arcana stuff as well, I currently run a Rogue/UA Ranger and would absolutely LOVE to get fully onboard with this new tool... but if my character isn't going to be buildable, then I may need to wait until Xanathar or whatever source its in becomes published.
I understand that there are a lot of questions to be answered, but was wondering if I bought the core books as a player, is there any possibility of sharing them with the other members of my playgroup or would our playgroup need to share the account that has the Master tier subscription if we switch DM's? (Or are there no differences in the app between DM's and Players? I've not had a lot of time to check out things that aren't the character creator)
The Master Tier account has the availability of sharing unlocked content with up to 12 player accounts. Once everyone has unlocked access, the DM could be of your choosing.
Thanks for clearing that up for me :)
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Tai-Ruth is how you pronounce it, or just Tai for short :)
Spot on Gwalxavad! Shows Sedge has zero clue how things in the real world work and is trying to sound like a lawyer. I paid for the intellectual property contained in the Players Hand Book, not the form in which it came.
When I buy a CD at the store, go home and insert it into my MAC, it instantly creates digital formats of the songs on the CD. New format does NOT require a new license. Same for movies purchased at the store, 99% have a digital download. This is greed in its basic form and will come back to bite them.
I like the subscription rates and seem quite reasonable to me, however after spending $50 a book (i know they are cheaper on Amazon but i try to support my local gaming/comic store) and i purchased 3 PHB's, 1 DM and 1 MM. The idea that I have to buy them again just to have online digital access to intellectual property i already paid for?? Yea that quite frankly stinks. had you said $10, I would not be offended as all this great programming that had to be done to make D&DBeyond work costs money and it needs to come from somewhere. But i also expect that $250 i shelled out over a year ago helped to pay for this program as well......unless they simply banked all that revenue as profit without putting any into expanding.
You seem to be under the impression that Wizards of the Coast develops D&D Beyond, which is not the case. Curse has developed, transcribed, coded, and hyperlinked all book material. Any money you shelled out over a year ago was not gifted to Curse to embark upon this project. This is a separate venture, which you are debating not being worthy of compensation for the work they've put forth. As a separate retailer than WotC, how do they recoup expenses during development by issuing free licenses to everyone whom owns a physical copy, purchased elsewhere?
It doesn't take a lawyer to see that this would be an awful business practice. If the $29.99 is too pricey, players are free to transcribe the entirety of the book's contents into their private homebrew for personal usage. For some of us, the time in which that would take justifies the price to have them provide it for us.
I am aware. I am trying to explain my sticker shock and the sticker shock others are probably feeling. I'm not asking for anything free, I'm not even asking for discounts. I understand that the price is the price and that it must be paid if you want access to the content. I know I can sit down at a table or in a chatroom with my friends and play tonight if everyone can make the schedule work.
But I'm seeing people here being actively hostile and degrading to each other, falling just short of insults. I suppose I was hoping to smooth the tension a little, remind everyone that one person's situation is not necessarily everyone. That attacking each other and being rude is falling short of the best we can be by long miles and not small steps.
I get that but listening to people who have no understanding of how business works that feel they are entitled to a product for free is ridiculous. If you can't afford it we understand so just move on and continue to play with your books or with Roll20/Fantasy Grounds. Just because you bought the physical copy does not mean you get the digital copy with every company that releases one.
Please understand those of you defending Curse/D&DB. Not all of us have access to unlimited funds or the ability to prioritize their hobby over their bills and life. So this is a bit of a sticker shock to some of us. I personally have been playing D&D since AD&D 2nd Edition. I've bought the books, I've rolled the dice, I've even gotten a few of the tool sets when they came out for 3rd edition. I like D&DB, I have been checking out its progress and telling my friends and family about it. I will use it to toss character ideas together, but as someone who is a full-time student, who is paying a mortgage, that buy in is going to hit me hard. I don't have a regular group, and I don't have a large one, and I can not go to them and say "hey buy me this" or "help me buy this" when we on average get to game maybe once or twice a month. I see a lot of people on here ragging on those of us who are concerned about the price. I appreciate that you feel the need to defend this, I really do. But just as you are free to defend we are free to express our concerns.
I want a Ferrari but can't afford it. Doesn't mean they shouldn't sell at what they do. You can still play without the tool, just as I can still drive without a Ferrari.
One is not 'gaining electronic access' to their previously-owned physical copies. One is purchasing a new license for intellectual property offered in a different medium.
One does not receive a free DVD because they purchased the VHS years prior. We all choose which medium to purchase our entertainment, knowing it can be outdated as technology advances. :D
That argument doesn't really fly - this site certainly doesn't make the physical books "outdated" (that would be more like an Amazon Kindle or RPGDriveThru pdf release) so much as supplement them - and many other companies wisely offer access to digital content with the purchase of a physical copy, such as when I buy a blu-ray disk with a code to the digital file or a comic book with a code to comixology. This is bad business strategy on Wizards' part.
That said, I can certainly understand WotC being reluctant to offering free access to those of us who have already purchased the books, as there really isn't a way to verify those purchases. Going forward they should incorporate a one-time code into future releases of the books so that buyers can have access to content here.
Also, the pricing on the books is blindingly stupid in light of the competition. With almost every other RPG company a digital copy of the book is available with the purchase of a physical copy and if I choose to forgo the physical copy a digital copy can be had for about $10. That is a copy I can take anywhere with me on as many devices as I want in a universally recognized digital format with no need for an internet connection. I *really* hope when this ends up shooting Wizards in the foot, they adjust their pricing accordingly instead of viewing DnDBeyond as a failure and scrapping it. Say $10-15 for the books, with the content being included for free in the subscription. There's a lot of good stuff here - I like the subscription pricing, and will probably take advantage of the reduced price for the books during the first week launch - but I can certainly understand people having a problem with the book pricing, as it shows complete ignorance of the current market.
Spot on Gwalxavad! Shows Sedge has zero clue how things in the real world work and is trying to sound like a lawyer. I paid for the intellectual property contained in the Players Hand Book, not the form in which it came.
When I buy a CD at the store, go home and insert it into my MAC, it instantly creates digital formats of the songs on the CD. New format does NOT require a new license. Same for movies purchased at the store, 99% have a digital download. This is greed in its basic form and will come back to bite them.
I like the subscription rates and seem quite reasonable to me, however after spending $50 a book (i know they are cheaper on Amazon but i try to support my local gaming/comic store) and i purchased 3 PHB's, 1 DM and 1 MM. The idea that I have to buy them again just to have online digital access to intellectual property i already paid for?? Yea that quite frankly stinks. had you said $10, I would not be offended as all this great programming that had to be done to make D&DBeyond work costs money and it needs to come from somewhere. But i also expect that $250 i shelled out over a year ago helped to pay for this program as well......unless they simply banked all that revenue as profit without putting any into expanding.
Try inserting your book into the computer and let me know how it works...A CD is in digital format already, a book isn't.
Honestly, the pricing here makes it a flat out no from me and everyone I play with. None of us are willing to shell out again for book content we already own. A subscription I can get behind, but splat purchases anda sub? Not a chance.
I bought Overwatch on PC and would love to play with my PS4 friends, but Blizzard isn't reimbursing my copy, nor providing access to the same game on the console.
I'm not seeing why this is expected to be different with D&D Beyond, as it's a proven business practice across multiple products/genres.
That's fair until you look at Pathfinder. (I know.... Dirty word.....)
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
I'm a bit disappointed in the subscription/purchase model here. I'm not in the camp of "this is project is dead to me" but its still disappointing. I was hoping for a higher tier subscription in the 10 dollar a month range where I didn't have to repurchase my books. I know, everyone's argument about buying the books doesn't entitle you to the digital copies for free. I get that, but its an expensive outlay to get started. And well, I have to second other people's what if scenarios about DnDB closing down. WotC hasn't really had a good track record of supporting tools well. I want to be optimistic but I can't until they prove otherwise. Even if DnDB doesn't close there is no guarantee content isn't going to be changed or disappear because of a decision some corporation makes. Its like my steam library, sure it is there now but it might not always be, unlike the physical books. Beyond that I'm not a huge fan of these parallel digital purchases. Fine, I the book, ok. Then I buy it on fantasy grounds so i can use it for map software. Then I buy it on DnDB so I can use it for my campaign building. I really just want it in one place. I'll likely cut out fantasy grounds because it has less features I want, and I generally don't like the people who make it. But all this repurchasing of stuff is annoying.
Honestly, the pricing here makes it a flat out no from me and everyone I play with. None of us are willing to shell out again for book content we already own. A subscription I can get behind, but splat purchases anda sub? Not a chance.
But you don't need the sub for the things in the books, you need the sub to remove ads, share your content with others, and share the content you bought with others. You can buy the books digitally and use them without a sub.
Likewise, you can buy a sub and no books, getting the extra features of the sub without shelling the cash for the books.
I bought Overwatch on PC and would love to play with my PS4 friends, but Blizzard isn't reimbursing my copy, nor providing access to the same game on the console.
I'm not seeing why this is expected to be different with D&D Beyond, as it's a proven business practice across multiple products/genres.
That's fair until you look at Pathfinder. (I know.... Dirty word.....)
Pathfinder uses the OGL for 3.5, there is an OGL for 5e and a "Pathfinder" equivalent can be created. However the Pathfinder equivalent of 5e wouldn't include Volo's guide to monsters or Curse of Strahd, just like Pathfinder doesn't include Ebberron or Dragonlance. the free version of the DND Beyond application/website (The OGL, what Pathfinder was created from in 3.5), is freely available currently and will be after launch.
I understand that listening to people who seem entitled can be difficult. I know, I used to work retail. Every day people would come through my line and the only interest they had was in how much they could get for as little as possible. I honestly hated them for a while. Like full on hate, spewing vitriol and venom about them to whoever would listen in my off time. Until I realized that they are just trying to make the system work. Yes, they were trying to get what others weren't getting. wasn't wasnt a personal attack against me. It was them, doing their very level best to get ahead. Sometimes a small win is the only thing that keeps people going.
The people here saying that the pricing is too much, asking for discounts, asking to change things this way or that. They are not attacking anyone, but they are being attacked. Those concerned with the price are turning things this way and that, they are not trying to be cheap, they are not trying to be free, they are trying to find some way to make this work for them, find some way that they can fit this product into their lives.
The fact that they want to try and find some way to get in on this is not an insult, it's not a denigration of the hard work those who made D&DB did. It's a compliment to it that they look at the price and go "I can't afford that" and instead of walking away and shrugging they are trying to find some way to still get to use this. It's a testament to the quality of the work that was put in.
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GM of The Bonus Role - We are playing a 5E game set in my homebrew world of Audra check us out Sunday's at 10 AM CST and follow us at the following social media links. https://www.twitch.tv/thebonusrole @BonusRole
I feel like having a DM subscription should allow you to "borrow" the books while it is active. Otherwise all the DM subscription does is you paying so you can lend your sources to others.
I don't think I will be participating as the sticker shock is too much for me to handle. That's far too pricey for me and unless it comes as an all in one, one time discount purchase for a big Chunk of it all I won't be able to keep paying a flat 25-30 and a monthly tab. I would have hoped for a discount for people who have already paid hundreds for books already.
I don't think I will be participating as the sticker shock is too much for me to handle. That's far too pricey for me and unless it comes as an all in one, one time discount purchase for a big Chungking of it I won't be able to keep paying a flat 25-30 and a monthly tab. I would have hoped for a discount for people who have already paid hundreds for books already.
The subscription are not mandatory. You can buy whichever book you desire without subscription.
Something I didn't see mentioned in either the original announcement or subsequent conversation. The master Tier, at 6$/month, allows you to share your books with up to 12 players. However, I just saw this while clicking around in the campaign area:
"Campaign content sharing slots allow players in a campaign to use all of the DM's unlocked content to create, manage, and progress their characters. Players with subscriptions do not consume slots. "
I read that as meaning that the "Up to 12 players" bit is just free players. So you can have unlimited subscription players in your campaign? Or does a campaign have a player limit?
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@JRedmond
I am aware. I am trying to explain my sticker shock and the sticker shock others are probably feeling. I'm not asking for anything free, I'm not even asking for discounts. I understand that the price is the price and that it must be paid if you want access to the content. I know I can sit down at a table or in a chatroom with my friends and play tonight if everyone can make the schedule work.
But I'm seeing people here being actively hostile and degrading to each other, falling just short of insults. I suppose I was hoping to smooth the tension a little, remind everyone that one person's situation is not necessarily everyone. That attacking each other and being rude is falling short of the best we can be by long miles and not small steps.
GM of The Bonus Role - We are playing a 5E game set in my homebrew world of Audra check us out Sunday's at 10 AM CST and follow us at the following social media links.
https://www.twitch.tv/thebonusrole
@BonusRole
Everyone crying over the cost needs to chill. The cost of the books is pretty decent, and the fact that the core ones will be on sale at launch points to the good chance that other books will go on sale for special events at times. Not to mention it takes a LOT of work to convert these books to a nice looking searchable digital format, and these people need paid for their work. I saw one post about all the core books plus an adventure is around 120 bucks. Well, take that 120, divide it by 4 (assuming you have a group willing to split the cost) and thats 30 bucks each for each person for HOURS worth of entertainment, much longer than a movie or even a standard 50 hour console or PC RPG. Going by that math for a 4 person playgroup, and the cost turns into 75 cents an hour. Less than a dollar per person per hour. Go to a theater or find a modern game that will give you that much value. You prolly won't find it.
I use summon instrument to summon my kettle drum, hold it overhead like Donkey Kong, and chuck it at the nearest kobold.
I'm curious about the Unearthed Arcana stuff as well, I currently run a Rogue/UA Ranger and would absolutely LOVE to get fully onboard with this new tool... but if my character isn't going to be buildable, then I may need to wait until Xanathar or whatever source its in becomes published.
Tai-Ruth is how you pronounce it, or just Tai for short :)
Check out my homebrew stuff
[ Site Rules & Guidelines ] --- [ Homebrew Rules & Guidelines ]
Send me a message with any questions or concerns
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
Honestly, the pricing here makes it a flat out no from me and everyone I play with. None of us are willing to shell out again for book content we already own. A subscription I can get behind, but splat purchases and a sub? Not a chance.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
I'm a bit disappointed in the subscription/purchase model here. I'm not in the camp of "this is project is dead to me" but its still disappointing. I was hoping for a higher tier subscription in the 10 dollar a month range where I didn't have to repurchase my books. I know, everyone's argument about buying the books doesn't entitle you to the digital copies for free. I get that, but its an expensive outlay to get started. And well, I have to second other people's what if scenarios about DnDB closing down. WotC hasn't really had a good track record of supporting tools well. I want to be optimistic but I can't until they prove otherwise. Even if DnDB doesn't close there is no guarantee content isn't going to be changed or disappear because of a decision some corporation makes. Its like my steam library, sure it is there now but it might not always be, unlike the physical books. Beyond that I'm not a huge fan of these parallel digital purchases. Fine, I the book, ok. Then I buy it on fantasy grounds so i can use it for map software. Then I buy it on DnDB so I can use it for my campaign building. I really just want it in one place. I'll likely cut out fantasy grounds because it has less features I want, and I generally don't like the people who make it. But all this repurchasing of stuff is annoying.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
@JRedmond
I understand that listening to people who seem entitled can be difficult. I know, I used to work retail. Every day people would come through my line and the only interest they had was in how much they could get for as little as possible. I honestly hated them for a while. Like full on hate, spewing vitriol and venom about them to whoever would listen in my off time. Until I realized that they are just trying to make the system work. Yes, they were trying to get what others weren't getting. wasn't wasnt a personal attack against me. It was them, doing their very level best to get ahead. Sometimes a small win is the only thing that keeps people going.
The people here saying that the pricing is too much, asking for discounts, asking to change things this way or that. They are not attacking anyone, but they are being attacked. Those concerned with the price are turning things this way and that, they are not trying to be cheap, they are not trying to be free, they are trying to find some way to make this work for them, find some way that they can fit this product into their lives.
The fact that they want to try and find some way to get in on this is not an insult, it's not a denigration of the hard work those who made D&DB did. It's a compliment to it that they look at the price and go "I can't afford that" and instead of walking away and shrugging they are trying to find some way to still get to use this. It's a testament to the quality of the work that was put in.
GM of The Bonus Role - We are playing a 5E game set in my homebrew world of Audra check us out Sunday's at 10 AM CST and follow us at the following social media links.
https://www.twitch.tv/thebonusrole
@BonusRole
How will the content sharing work? Specifically in relation to "slot" limitations and subscriptions?
Check out the upcoming full 3D VTT, TaleSpire! [official website] [subreddit] [discord]
I feel like having a DM subscription should allow you to "borrow" the books while it is active. Otherwise all the DM subscription does is you paying so you can lend your sources to others.
I don't think I will be participating as the sticker shock is too much for me to handle. That's far too pricey for me and unless it comes as an all in one, one time discount purchase for a big Chunk of it all I won't be able to keep paying a flat 25-30 and a monthly tab. I would have hoped for a discount for people who have already paid hundreds for books already.
Something I didn't see mentioned in either the original announcement or subsequent conversation. The master Tier, at 6$/month, allows you to share your books with up to 12 players. However, I just saw this while clicking around in the campaign area:
"Campaign content sharing slots allow players in a campaign to use all of the DM's unlocked content to create, manage, and progress their characters. Players with subscriptions do not consume slots. "
I read that as meaning that the "Up to 12 players" bit is just free players. So you can have unlimited subscription players in your campaign? Or does a campaign have a player limit?