With the night quickly claiming the skies, and now safely out of the swamp, CRAP decides that there is little reason to rush their arrival back in Phlan. Utar seems a bit worried that risking a night with Ellison out in the wild might just be asking for trouble, but Obsben points out that they could use the time to get cleaned up, rest, get more info from Ellison, and organize meetings for the morrow. Neya agrees but emphasizes that watch duties will be doubly hard this night, while Graxx sees a chance to internalize the group's achievement.
Concluding that the pros outweigh the cons, CRAP sets camp right by the side of the road.
(OOC: Please go ahead and roll you perception checks for the watches and describe anything you might be trying to accomplish overnight -- Questioning? Identifying? Messaging? Divvying up loot?)
Eating steadily through a ration pack, Utar reflects on how weird it is, that CRAP still stand. Facing down a balck dragon; certain death. Yet, he is still on this side of the world, among the living. Utar says nothing, part of him wishes that he had fallen and had the chance to rejoin Ilim, Burga, Abet and Grewalt. He might have seen Rollo Leadstopper and been able to shake the hand of the bravest Gnome he had ever known.
Exhaling slowly, Utar chewed the hard biscuits and dried meat of the ration pack and savoured it. It was ordinary, the sort of thing he had eaten many, many times before and never found to be remarkable in the slightest. Right now, Utar couldn't recall eating a better meal.
Having no preference over his watch, Utar lets the others take their pick first and he will fit in where he is needed.
Between Neya and Graxx' agreement at the very least, Obsben took it as the go ahead to start laying the foundation of her protective wards. She took out a small, crystal bead, and while contemplating what story to use as the base for her spell, she suddenly stiffens as Graxx claims during the interim finally sunk in for her. "We... really did slay a dragon, didn't we?"She murmured softly as a smile of pride began to bloom. Though it soon enough proves to be a fleeting one given the somber follow-up from the barbarian.
"...Mn. There's no doubt about that, Graxx. And so too will the rest of you people I'm sure."She eventually assured him along with an affirming nod. "... But right, I-I should get back to this."In the end, Obsben opted to tell a story about one of the supposed origins of the halfling race for her spell, and how from the tears of goddess that sought the warmth of comfort the first of her people came to be. "Though so clumsy were the first batch that she of course had to bless us with our uncanny luck, least in our eagerness to provide comfort to others that we wind up swept away."She further said before rolling her eyes and shaking her head and carrying on with the magical tale.
Once the barrier, shaded a dark, stony grey in hopes of being mistaken for a smooth boulder, is finished, Obsben would keep her word about cleaning everyone up(Ellison included). But afterwards, as far as nightly activities before bed went for the halfling, there always seemed to be too many time consuming things to really get around to ungagging Ellison so he could say his piece. After all, word needed to be sent to their allies, which was its own small discussion among the party. Then there was identifying the spellbook(just to confirm really nothing hanky going on there) and sword she found in the den. Heck, she'd even do the same for the necklace, having at least heard of certain spells that can mask other objects. Of course this would mean delaying the group's departure come morning by "a bit", but she trusted noone would complain! So any interrogating would be up to Neya and Graxx.
"Hiii~ Obsben here. Utar's friend. Captured book thief. Be back in town tomorrow morning. Come with Alyed to Leadstoppers around then. See you soon, Cupcake~"
In the end, Obsben volunteers to take the last watch segment. Though so long as nothing interrupted the group during the interim, it would be more accurate to say that Sourpuss stood watch on her behalf while she busily studied her new spellbook and made ABSOLUTELY sure there weren't any more hidden nuggets to it. As pleasantly distracting as the task was however, it could only keep her mind off the past for so long before her mind drifted to darker places for the remainder of her watch...
-Ritual Cast (1st level)Identify on Sword, then Book, then necklace -Cast (4th level)Sending to Moneus. -Sourpuss' Watch: 22. -Obsben's book study: 14.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
This post has potentially manipulated dice roll results.
Graxx nods to Obsben with her comment about the rest of his people.
"Maybe this deed will be enough to have my people freed from prison. If this doesn't, I fear nothing will." says Graxx.
Graxx lays his pike on the ground next to him and he will go over and remove Ellison's gag and will sit down next to Ellison.
Graxx slowly reaches beside him and pulls out his trusted silvered interrogating hand axe.
"You all go ahead and get some rest. I'll take first watch. Besides, Ellison will keep me company I'm sure." says Graxx.
Perception: 19
Graxx gives a wink to Ellison.
"Ain't that right Ellison." says Graxx.
Graxx begins cleaning imaginary junk from under his fingernails. He is very clean thanks to Obsben.
"Now Ellison. You're a smart person to get this far alive. So I'm not going to insult you by sitting here making threats with this here handaxe." says Graxx.
Graxx shrugs his shoulders.
"But just so you know. This axe has found it's way into some thighs in similar conversations when people have been more difficult." says Graxx.
Graxx puts the axe down on the side of him opposite of Ellison.
"But we won't need that tonight will we? No, I have something more... Civilized some may say." says Graxx.
Graxx searches around in his backpack and retrieves his Alchemy Jug.
Graxx pulls it out, looks at Ellison and gives a smile.
"Wine" says Graxx aloud as he uncorks the jug.
Graxx holds it next to his body.
"Would you like some? Something to wet the tongue? Of course, your tongue only needs to be moistened if you're feeling talkative." says Graxx.
This post has potentially manipulated dice roll results.
After reflecting on the last battle, mostly wondering how in the world they managed to fell one of the more dangerous threats in the Moonsea Area, Neya's mind starts to drift to the subject of the Pool of Radiance. A thread that has become all too common as of late.
The only thing they know of it is its name, but little else. It's this lack of knowledge and the questions it raises that worries her. If the Cult is looking for it, it might hold some untold power they covet. What sort of power is it? Is it something anyone could use? What's the cost for such power?
There is only one thing clear. The Cult of the Dragon must not be the first to find it.
While the others prepare the supper and get settled, Obsben begins performing several rituals in a row. The curious witch had waited long enough to savor her haul.
The two-pronged sword had a curious tendency to tranfer the life force of its target to its wielder, but only if the strike landed was as clean as possible -> Longsword of Life Stealing.
The unused spellbook must have been saved for special occasions, to the point its original owner never got around to it -> Arcane Grimoire, +1.
The gaudy bronze amulet sized for a dragon is only that. Apart from its value as a piece of treasure (500gp) and proof of the Cult's involvement in Phlan, it has little use.
"Right, the new CRAPer. We'll arrive separately but we will be there in time to break fast. See you soon... Cupcake."
After a while more, Obsben's latest spell is complete and everyone is shiny clean. Graxx volunteers for the first watch, but admits most of his attention will be paid directly to Ellison.
"Yes, I'd much rather have wine on my tongue than an axe in my thigh." Ellison responds calmly. "I already said I am willing to collaborate. You do not have to threaten me. Hopefully, by the end of this, you'll realize I am an asset to you, not a threat, and give me a chance to earn my freedom."
He sighs and keeps taliking: "What would you like to know? Perhaps I should start with the books? The book stolen from Marten Foss and the rest of the collection in the Library's underbelly contained first-hand accounts of the Pool of Radiance; something no other books in the Library’s possession did. The second book, the one stolen from Aya Glenmiir, was more practical observation and, more importantly, theory on the properties and functions of Pools of Radiance. It is obvious the Cult wants to locate it and understand it, but this is not something I can do. I was simply tasked with finding information and sharing it with Rythnax."
Ellison pauses at this point, gauging if there are any follow-up questions.
(OOC: We'll get to the watches soon. I figure we probably want to get through the questioniong before resolving the rest of the night. Everyone can be awake for this, you don't have to assume you went to sleep just yet.)
Graxx nods and sets the jug in Ellison's tied hands.
"Drink away then. Good choice." says Graxx.
Graxx contemplates what question to ask Ellison.
"So. When you were sitting around with Rythnax. What did the Dragon tell you that may be of interest? Anything about the Pool of Radiance?" asks Graxx.
For the moment at least, Obsben had been content to listen and silently absorb the happenings around her while further examining her book. But she would on occasion peak over the rim of her one true prize (having happily passed along the sword to Neya without much thought at some point), and pretend trying to get a better read on Ellison, before her gaze inevitably drifted back down to the blank pages and idle thoughts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
In between gulps of wine, Ellison answers questions as they come: "The third book... that one... was more... hmm... personal." Ellison pauses and thinks for a bit. He sighs, and admits: "I have not shared this with anyone, so let this confiding prove my willingness. May you consider it when deciding on whether to let me go: I took the third book, Lords and Lineages, for purely personal reasons; I believed that it would contain proof that I belonged to a noble house of Phlan. While there was a House Berenger in Phlan, it turns out that I am of no relation. I was raised believing that I belonged to House Berenger and wanted to know the truth."
As for his conversation with Rythnax, Ellison says: "I took my orders from Rythnax. Unlike me, he was proud of being a member of the Cult, and even more so of being paid to be such. They played to his greed and boastfulness, and Rythnax lapped that up. Rythnax was smart enough to only tell me what was necessary for the mission. He considered me nothing more than a lackey. He did like to talk, nonetheless, and would tell me of his ferocious battles elsewhere. I doubt the accuracy of many of them. Some of them must be true, though, as it seems a few roving members of the Emerald Enclave have been trying to track him down."
@Utar:
Ellison has never sounded more sincere than when sharing his crushed belief of being from a noble family. His sincerity and crushed hopes strike you as being quite contrasting to another would-be noble who took calculating advantage of his fake affiliation --the owner of the third stolen book, Agin Lamarck.
"Sounds as if there might be a bit of a reward in informing the Enclave then." Obsben comments, then looks over to the the party. "Do lot know of any members in town? If not, I can always reach out to my other friends and perhaps get something sorted out there on the groups behalf. As I doubt this little set back will be enough to scare off the cult, and you will all need as much support, personal and otherwise, if you intend to continue undermine their efforts," She went on to say.
"Back to you, Mr. Ellison. Can you also tell us more about these suppose ferocious battles? Even if they are only partially accurate, I've known few chatter boxes -- even clever ones -- that haven't left at least innocuous at first, but no less interested nuggets in their tales. Little... details that can yet serve to grant their opposition certain advantages."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
"Yes..." Ellison replies meekly to Utar's question. "I paid them to get you off my trail, discouraging them from investigating any further. I didn't tell them to kill you."
@Utar:
Whether this was indeed what Ellison said to the mercenaries back then, you know the Cult's MO by now. One of the attackers, Soares, was also a Cult member. He certainly attacked you with the intent to kill. The mercenaries, on the other hand, valued their own lives more.
Turning to Obsben question: "Stories, stories... Well, he had some sort of rivalry with Claugiyliamatar, or so Rythnax claimed. I always thought it sounded quite one sided. I wouldn't be surprised if Claugiyliamatar doesn't even know who Rythnax was. There was another tale about stealing another Black dragon's lair from under their nose. That one had me a bit worried. He mentioned the name Throstulgrael, but I do not know much about that."
Ellison does not participate in the discussion about the Emerald Enclave, letting Graxx and Obsben (and others?) share their thoughts.
You have heard the name Throstulgrael in passing only. All you know is that it belongs to a dragon who lairs in multiple spots around the Moonsea region and Northern Faerûn.
"Mainly..." Ellison jumps to the next question. "For a few months I also had contact with two other grunts, Tibeem and Spernik. We had different, separate assignments even though we were all at the library for about four months. Rythnax instructed me to not share any of our mission's detail with them, so I didn't. I was so secretive I think they even doubted I was part of the Cult."
As Ellison is not participating in Emerald Enclave discussion, Graxx shares additional insight in a hushed tone.
Graxx huddles up with the others.
"Remember that treasonous Buhrell Cahh who's head I ended up taking? One time they met us at the Tea Kettle with two other folks who I believe were from the Enclave. Surruk and Yanna were their names."
"Of course, they may have been in on the scheme and may not be trusted either." says Graxx.
Graxx scratches his chin.
"Who was that other..."
Graxx holds up a finger to the air.
"Seranolla, the old gnome was part of the Enclave!" says Graxx.
"I don't think they ended up betraying us and dying did they? It's hard to remember at this point" asks Graxx.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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With the night quickly claiming the skies, and now safely out of the swamp, CRAP decides that there is little reason to rush their arrival back in Phlan. Utar seems a bit worried that risking a night with Ellison out in the wild might just be asking for trouble, but Obsben points out that they could use the time to get cleaned up, rest, get more info from Ellison, and organize meetings for the morrow. Neya agrees but emphasizes that watch duties will be doubly hard this night, while Graxx sees a chance to internalize the group's achievement.
Concluding that the pros outweigh the cons, CRAP sets camp right by the side of the road.
(OOC: Please go ahead and roll you perception checks for the watches and describe anything you might be trying to accomplish overnight -- Questioning? Identifying? Messaging? Divvying up loot?)
Eating steadily through a ration pack, Utar reflects on how weird it is, that CRAP still stand. Facing down a balck dragon; certain death. Yet, he is still on this side of the world, among the living. Utar says nothing, part of him wishes that he had fallen and had the chance to rejoin Ilim, Burga, Abet and Grewalt. He might have seen Rollo Leadstopper and been able to shake the hand of the bravest Gnome he had ever known.
Exhaling slowly, Utar chewed the hard biscuits and dried meat of the ration pack and savoured it. It was ordinary, the sort of thing he had eaten many, many times before and never found to be remarkable in the slightest. Right now, Utar couldn't recall eating a better meal.
Having no preference over his watch, Utar lets the others take their pick first and he will fit in where he is needed.
Perception - 28
Between Neya and Graxx' agreement at the very least, Obsben took it as the go ahead to start laying the foundation of her protective wards. She took out a small, crystal bead, and while contemplating what story to use as the base for her spell, she suddenly stiffens as Graxx claims during the interim finally sunk in for her. "We... really did slay a dragon, didn't we?" She murmured softly as a smile of pride began to bloom. Though it soon enough proves to be a fleeting one given the somber follow-up from the barbarian.
"...Mn. There's no doubt about that, Graxx. And so too will the rest of you people I'm sure." She eventually assured him along with an affirming nod. "... But right, I-I should get back to this." In the end, Obsben opted to tell a story about one of the supposed origins of the halfling race for her spell, and how from the tears of goddess that sought the warmth of comfort the first of her people came to be. "Though so clumsy were the first batch that she of course had to bless us with our uncanny luck, least in our eagerness to provide comfort to others that we wind up swept away." She further said before rolling her eyes and shaking her head and carrying on with the magical tale.
Once the barrier, shaded a dark, stony grey in hopes of being mistaken for a smooth boulder, is finished, Obsben would keep her word about cleaning everyone up(Ellison included). But afterwards, as far as nightly activities before bed went for the halfling, there always seemed to be too many time consuming things to really get around to ungagging Ellison so he could say his piece. After all, word needed to be sent to their allies, which was its own small discussion among the party. Then there was identifying the spellbook(just to confirm really nothing hanky going on there) and sword she found in the den. Heck, she'd even do the same for the necklace, having at least heard of certain spells that can mask other objects. Of course this would mean delaying the group's departure come morning by "a bit", but she trusted noone would complain! So any interrogating would be up to Neya and Graxx.
Sending Message:
"Hiii~ Obsben here. Utar's friend. Captured book thief. Be back in town tomorrow morning. Come with Alyed to Leadstoppers around then. See you soon, Cupcake~"
In the end, Obsben volunteers to take the last watch segment. Though so long as nothing interrupted the group during the interim, it would be more accurate to say that Sourpuss stood watch on her behalf while she busily studied her new spellbook and made ABSOLUTELY sure there weren't any more hidden nuggets to it. As pleasantly distracting as the task was however, it could only keep her mind off the past for so long before her mind drifted to darker places for the remainder of her watch...
-Ritual Cast (1st level)Identify on Sword, then Book, then necklace
-Cast (4th level)Sending to Moneus.
-Sourpuss' Watch: 22.
-Obsben's book study: 14.
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
Graxx nods to Obsben with her comment about the rest of his people.
"Maybe this deed will be enough to have my people freed from prison. If this doesn't, I fear nothing will." says Graxx.
Graxx lays his pike on the ground next to him and he will go over and remove Ellison's gag and will sit down next to Ellison.
Graxx slowly reaches beside him and pulls out his trusted silvered interrogating hand axe.
"You all go ahead and get some rest. I'll take first watch. Besides, Ellison will keep me company I'm sure." says Graxx.
Perception: 19
Graxx gives a wink to Ellison.
"Ain't that right Ellison." says Graxx.
Graxx begins cleaning imaginary junk from under his fingernails. He is very clean thanks to Obsben.
"Now Ellison. You're a smart person to get this far alive. So I'm not going to insult you by sitting here making threats with this here handaxe." says Graxx.
Graxx shrugs his shoulders.
"But just so you know. This axe has found it's way into some thighs in similar conversations when people have been more difficult." says Graxx.
Graxx puts the axe down on the side of him opposite of Ellison.
"But we won't need that tonight will we? No, I have something more... Civilized some may say." says Graxx.
Graxx searches around in his backpack and retrieves his Alchemy Jug.
Graxx pulls it out, looks at Ellison and gives a smile.
"Wine" says Graxx aloud as he uncorks the jug.
Graxx holds it next to his body.
"Would you like some? Something to wet the tongue? Of course, your tongue only needs to be moistened if you're feeling talkative." says Graxx.
Persuasion: 9
After reflecting on the last battle, mostly wondering how in the world they managed to fell one of the more dangerous threats in the Moonsea Area, Neya's mind starts to drift to the subject of the Pool of Radiance. A thread that has become all too common as of late.
The only thing they know of it is its name, but little else. It's this lack of knowledge and the questions it raises that worries her. If the Cult is looking for it, it might hold some untold power they covet. What sort of power is it? Is it something anyone could use? What's the cost for such power?
There is only one thing clear. The Cult of the Dragon must not be the first to find it.
Perception: 19 (11)
Extended Signature
While the others prepare the supper and get settled, Obsben begins performing several rituals in a row. The curious witch had waited long enough to savor her haul.
Here's Moneus's response to the sent message:
"Right, the new CRAPer. We'll arrive separately but we will be there in time to break fast. See you soon... Cupcake."
After a while more, Obsben's latest spell is complete and everyone is shiny clean. Graxx volunteers for the first watch, but admits most of his attention will be paid directly to Ellison.
"Yes, I'd much rather have wine on my tongue than an axe in my thigh." Ellison responds calmly. "I already said I am willing to collaborate. You do not have to threaten me. Hopefully, by the end of this, you'll realize I am an asset to you, not a threat, and give me a chance to earn my freedom."
He sighs and keeps taliking: "What would you like to know? Perhaps I should start with the books? The book stolen from Marten Foss and the rest of the collection in the Library's underbelly contained first-hand accounts of the Pool of Radiance; something no other books in the Library’s possession did. The second book, the one stolen from Aya Glenmiir, was more practical observation and, more importantly, theory on the properties and functions of Pools of Radiance. It is obvious the Cult wants to locate it and understand it, but this is not something I can do. I was simply tasked with finding information and sharing it with Rythnax."
Ellison pauses at this point, gauging if there are any follow-up questions.
(OOC: We'll get to the watches soon. I figure we probably want to get through the questioniong before resolving the rest of the night. Everyone can be awake for this, you don't have to assume you went to sleep just yet.)
Utar watches Ellison spill their secrets, but notes that the former scribe isn't giving them anything that they don't already know.
"What about the third book? Why take that one at all?"
Watching the scribe intently, Utar considers their response for lies.
Insight - 11
Graxx nods and sets the jug in Ellison's tied hands.
"Drink away then. Good choice." says Graxx.
Graxx contemplates what question to ask Ellison.
"So. When you were sitting around with Rythnax. What did the Dragon tell you that may be of interest? Anything about the Pool of Radiance?" asks Graxx.
For the moment at least, Obsben had been content to listen and silently absorb the happenings around her while further examining her book. But she would on occasion peak over the rim of her one true prize (having happily passed along the sword to Neya without much thought at some point), and pretend trying to get a better read on Ellison, before her gaze inevitably drifted back down to the blank pages and idle thoughts.
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
In between gulps of wine, Ellison answers questions as they come: "The third book... that one... was more... hmm... personal." Ellison pauses and thinks for a bit. He sighs, and admits: "I have not shared this with anyone, so let this confiding prove my willingness. May you consider it when deciding on whether to let me go: I took the third book, Lords and Lineages, for purely personal reasons; I believed that it would contain proof that I belonged to a noble house of Phlan. While there was a House Berenger in Phlan, it turns out that I am of no relation. I was raised believing that I belonged to House Berenger and wanted to know the truth."
As for his conversation with Rythnax, Ellison says: "I took my orders from Rythnax. Unlike me, he was proud of being a member of the Cult, and even more so of being paid to be such. They played to his greed and boastfulness, and Rythnax lapped that up. Rythnax was smart enough to only tell me what was necessary for the mission. He considered me nothing more than a lackey. He did like to talk, nonetheless, and would tell me of his ferocious battles elsewhere. I doubt the accuracy of many of them. Some of them must be true, though, as it seems a few roving members of the Emerald Enclave have been trying to track him down."
@Utar:
Ellison has never sounded more sincere than when sharing his crushed belief of being from a noble family. His sincerity and crushed hopes strike you as being quite contrasting to another would-be noble who took calculating advantage of his fake affiliation --the owner of the third stolen book, Agin Lamarck.
Picking up on the House Berenger point, Utar chimes in with, "So you are the mysterious 'B' who hired some gutter thugs to take us out?"
Bullshit detector - 25
"Sounds as if there might be a bit of a reward in informing the Enclave then." Obsben comments, then looks over to the the party. "Do lot know of any members in town? If not, I can always reach out to my other friends and perhaps get something sorted out there on the groups behalf. As I doubt this little set back will be enough to scare off the cult, and you will all need as much support, personal and otherwise, if you intend to continue undermine their efforts," She went on to say.
"Back to you, Mr. Ellison. Can you also tell us more about these suppose ferocious battles? Even if they are only partially accurate, I've known few chatter boxes -- even clever ones -- that haven't left at least innocuous at first, but no less interested nuggets in their tales. Little... details that can yet serve to grant their opposition certain advantages."
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
Graxx is done asking questions for now.
"It has been some time but we have ran across some Enclave folks in the past." says Graxx.
Graxx looks over to Neya and Utar.
"Evenfeast... Tea Kettle..." says Graxx not wanting to share too much with Ellison.
Graxx gives a nod.
"Yes..." Ellison replies meekly to Utar's question. "I paid them to get you off my trail, discouraging them from investigating any further. I didn't tell them to kill you."
@Utar:
Whether this was indeed what Ellison said to the mercenaries back then, you know the Cult's MO by now. One of the attackers, Soares, was also a Cult member. He certainly attacked you with the intent to kill. The mercenaries, on the other hand, valued their own lives more.
Turning to Obsben question: "Stories, stories... Well, he had some sort of rivalry with Claugiyliamatar, or so Rythnax claimed. I always thought it sounded quite one sided. I wouldn't be surprised if Claugiyliamatar doesn't even know who Rythnax was. There was another tale about stealing another Black dragon's lair from under their nose. That one had me a bit worried. He mentioned the name Throstulgrael, but I do not know much about that."
Ellison does not participate in the discussion about the Emerald Enclave, letting Graxx and Obsben (and others?) share their thoughts.
-Does Obby recognize the name & History of Throstulgrael: 15.
When you realize you're doing too much: Signature.
@Obby:
You have heard the name Throstulgrael in passing only. All you know is that it belongs to a dragon who lairs in multiple spots around the Moonsea region and Northern Faerûn.
"Was Rythnax the only point of contact you had with the Cult?"
Extended Signature
"Mainly..." Ellison jumps to the next question. "For a few months I also had contact with two other grunts, Tibeem and Spernik. We had different, separate assignments even though we were all at the library for about four months. Rythnax instructed me to not share any of our mission's detail with them, so I didn't. I was so secretive I think they even doubted I was part of the Cult."
As Ellison is not participating in Emerald Enclave discussion, Graxx shares additional insight in a hushed tone.
Graxx huddles up with the others.
"Remember that treasonous Buhrell Cahh who's head I ended up taking? One time they met us at the Tea Kettle with two other folks who I believe were from the Enclave. Surruk and Yanna were their names."
"Of course, they may have been in on the scheme and may not be trusted either." says Graxx.
Graxx scratches his chin.
"Who was that other..."
Graxx holds up a finger to the air.
"Seranolla, the old gnome was part of the Enclave!" says Graxx.
"I don't think they ended up betraying us and dying did they? It's hard to remember at this point" asks Graxx.