An example of a spell effect that would do what Arnt and BigBoss are wanting:
"Select up to 5 creatures you can see within range. you teleport to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of each creature (you choose the order) and make a melee weapon attack against it before teleporting to the next location. On a hit, you deal the weapons damage + (x force damage, etc). Once all attacks are made, you can choose to teleport back to your starting position before the spell ends."
See how this version clearly defines teleporting between attacks, the order in which the teleporting happens, and that the attacks are made with the selected weapon? SWS as written does none of those things the way this spell does, but it is equally clear: you attack five times with a spell attack, then teleport.
You left out a very key word in your description: "you attack five times with a melee spell attack". Again, why does the spell require a melee weapon in both the material component and the description if the weapon doesn't factor into the spell in any way shape or form? It even has a cost, so you cannot cast this spell without a melee weapon. If you never hit anything with the melee weapon, why would you need it? It doesn't say that the weapon disappears and shoots around the battlefield, it says that the caster disappears. Why would you just blip out, cast up to five force beams (that are somehow cast at melee distance when you yourself are 30 feet away) and then blip back right to where you were?
I think that the melee spell attack makes it pretty clear that the caster is beside each of the targets when the attack is made. Now, if it said ranged spell attack, then you would be 100% right. But since it says its a melee spell attack, you're 100% wrong. JC agrees:
On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.
What part of that makes you think it's not the summoned weapon? What part of that makes you think you're attacking with anything except the summoned weapon..? Do your weapons deal 1d8 force + spellcasting mod?
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
Do your weapons deal more damage when upcasting this spell? No, but the damage from the object created by this spell does.
How would you even be making melee attacks against a creature up to 60 feet away? Do you have some kind of ridiculously long weapon that can reach that far? Then why would you need the spell? Do you think the spell lets you instantly teleport to the location of the summoned object, make an attack with your own weapon, and teleport back to your starting space? Where does it say that? It doesn't.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
All except Thorn Whip and Steel Wind Strike involve summoning something for a duration greater than one turn and making melee spell attacks within 5 ft. of the summoned weapon/creature. With Thorn Whip, "you create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns", which presumably has a reach of 30 ft. (think of it as an extra long Whip or Scorpion's "GET OVER HERE").
That leaves Steel Wind Strike. The only way that you could possibly make melee attacks is if you summoned something by each target OR if you were physically beside each target. Now, since you start the spell by vanishing, and the end result of the spell would allow you to appear beside one of these targets, the ONLY logical conclusion is that you are physically beside each target when you make the melee spell attack.
I would allow it as with Steel Wind Strike you're obviously moving "like the wind" and actually hitting each target with a melee weapon. The magic propelling your speed is what causes this to deal force damage instead of weapon damage. This is supported in the fact that you can appear either back where you started or within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit (5e really only has rules about ending a turn in another creatures space, not moving through). So you are obviously at each target, which would apply the Spirit Shroud extra damage.
And regarding Spiritual Weapon, you're really arguing that the spectral weapon just has to float by the target to deal the damage?? I think Spell as Intended is that the floating spiritual weapon is making the "melee spell attack" from the description. I don't think there is a single spell that lets you make a melee spell attack without you or something you summon being within its reach. Even Thorn Whip is just a melee attack with a 30 ft. reach as you are summoning a "long thorny vine".
Yeah no. That may fit the "flavor" of the spell, but it is not RAW. RAW, you only move once, teleporting to the selected spot after all attacks are made. Saying the spell mechanically does anything else other than the exact things it says it does can create truly gamebreaking issues when other game effects apply**. Here is what is described in the spell:
"You flourish the weapon and vanish to strike like the wind" This is the generic description of the whole spell effect. Lots of other spells have these kind of descriptive effects, including Thorn Whip and Spiritual Weapon. It is not describing the mechanical effect of the spell (yet, that comes next).
Then
"Choose up to five creatures you can see within range. Make a melee spell attack against each target. On a hit, a target takes 6d10 force damage." This is the first mechanical part of the spell. It describes a spell attack (so you aren't attacking with the weapon, otherwise it would be a weapon attack), a range of 30 feet, and the damage on a hit (again, not keyed to a weapon or traditional damage types for weapons). This fulfills the "strike like the wind" portion of the description.
Then
"You can then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed." After the attacks are made ("you can then...") you teleport, fulfilling the "vanish" portion of the description.
Note that it does not say you teleport to each target, it does not set range based on the weapon you use, nor does it say you move at all until the attacks are made. Mechanically the vanishing (during the teleport) happens after the attack.
Now, if you want the spell to mechanically act they way you are wanting it to, and are the DM, or have your DMs permission, then you can certainly run it the way you are wanting to as a house rule, but that is what it is, a house rule, not the RAW.
** an example game breaking issue here that I can think of is your way of thinking would make this the only spell in the game that can bypass a Wall of Force or other barrier and attack at the same time. All other teleportation spells don't involve attacks at their destinations.
No, mechanically you vanish BEFORE anything else. You flourish the weapon, and then "vanish to strike like the wind" you are not at your casting location for the duration of the spell. You then can teleport to one of your targets or reappear where you started. Are you saying that if you choose not to teleport that you never vanish? Because that is the first thing that you do in the spell, which flies in the face of your RAW logic.
Did you actually read my post? That whole sentence is the spell equivalent of an opening statement; a summary of the mechanical rules that follow to help with flavor. Nearly every spell starts with a similar opening phrase; it is not itself a mechanic or a rule. Vanish is not a game term, and it is most certainly not associated with teleportation. No other teleportation spell, not misty step, dimension door, or any other. In fact, only 4 spells in the whole game use that word, two in reference to inter-planar travel (Blink and Wristpocket) and one in reference to temporal travel (Temporal Shunt).
If the weapon plays absolutely no part in the spell, why is it listed as a component? Why can't it be cast without a weapon since the weapon doesn't factor into the spell at all? If you're just shooting force beams at them, why do you vanish? Why would you make melee spell attacks? I again ask when can you ever make a melee spell attack at a 30 foot range?
Not in the SAC, so it's not an official ruling, and certainly not RAW (RAI maybe, but this is one of the most egregious examples of RAW/RAI mismatch if so). His interpretation also does not align whatsoever with the text of the spell. Also, components don't factor into the spell, except that you must be holding them when you cast it (per RAW), and any way the spell itself describes. Other spells might specifically call you to make an attack with the weapon (Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade). This one doesn't; it only requires you to flourish the weapon, with no written indication the weapon is part of the attack or used to make the attack at all. And Thorn Whip is a melee spell attack at 30 feet of range.
An example of a spell effect that would do what Arnt and BigBoss are wanting:
"Select up to 5 creatures you can see within range. you teleport to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of each creature (you choose the order) and make a melee weapon attack against it before teleporting to the next location. On a hit, you deal the weapons damage + (x force damage, etc). Once all attacks are made, you can choose to teleport back to your starting position before the spell ends."
See how this version clearly defines teleporting between attacks, the order in which the teleporting happens, and that the attacks are made with the selected weapon? SWS as written does none of those things the way this spell does, but it is equally clear: you attack five times with a spell attack, then teleport.
You left out a very key word in your description: "you attack five times with a melee spell attack".
I said "melee weapon attack" in my version...that very plainly calls out using the weapon in hand, and matches language used in other spells where the weapon component is actually used to make an attack inside the spell effect.
Again, why does the spell require a melee weapon in both the material component and the description if the weapon doesn't factor into the spell in any way shape or form? It even has a cost, so you cannot cast this spell without a melee weapon. If you never hit anything with the melee weapon, why would you need it? It doesn't say that the weapon disappears and shoots around the battlefield, it says that the caster disappears. Why would you just blip out, cast up to five force beams (that are somehow cast at melee distance when you yourself are 30 feet away) and then blip back right to where you were?
I never said it doesn't factor at all. It is clearly a material component and clearly has to be flourished (somatic component). However, nothing in the SWS spell description that follows states that the attack is made with the weapon. Spells only do what they say they do, and nothing more.
I think that the melee spell attack makes it pretty clear that the caster is beside each of the targets when the attack is made. Now, if it said ranged spell attack, then you would be 100% right. But since it says its a melee spell attack, you're 100% wrong. JC agrees:
You've quoted the same damn tweet at me twice now as if I didn't read it? I did, and i also noted it's not RAW, as it never made it into the SAC. The tweet was addressing if the spell description gave you advantage on attacks from being unseen, not in how effects like Spirit Shroud worked with the spell. If that was the RAI of the spell, then they did a piss-poor job translating that into text, because the RAW is not anywhere close to that intent (to get that intent, see the alternate I wrote, which is much, much clearer in articulating that intent in the same rough amount of text
If your DM does decide that your spirit shroud applies as if you had occupied a position steel wind strike never said you occupied, keep in mind that this does mean you will be subjected to any enemy auras, AOEs, or environmental hazards.
Also, how would that work if the enemy doesn't have an unoccupied space near them? According to the spell description it doesn't matter, but according to "I attack from within 5 ft of them" logic it does.
All except Thorn Whip and Steel Wind Strike involve summoning something for a duration greater than one turn and making melee spell attacks within 5 ft. of the summoned weapon/creature. With Thorn Whip, "you create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns", which presumably has a reach of 30 ft. (think of it as an extra long Whip or Scorpion's "GET OVER HERE").
That leaves Steel Wind Strike. The only way that you could possibly make melee attacks is if you summoned something by each target OR if you were physically beside each target. Now, since you start the spell by vanishing, and the end result of the spell would allow you to appear beside one of these targets, the ONLY logical conclusion is that you are physically beside each target when you make the melee spell attack.
(on the point in blue) Maybe that's so, but the spell doesn't tell us that. Spells only tell us what they do. If it did tell us that explicitly, I'd have no problem with your ruling.
All except Thorn Whip and Steel Wind Strike involve summoning something for a duration greater than one turn and making melee spell attacks within 5 ft. of the summoned weapon/creature. With Thorn Whip, "you create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns", which presumably has a reach of 30 ft. (think of it as an extra long Whip or Scorpion's "GET OVER HERE").
That leaves Steel Wind Strike. The only way that you could possibly make melee attacks is if you summoned something by each target OR if you were physically beside each target. Now, since you start the spell by vanishing, and the end result of the spell would allow you to appear beside one of these targets, the ONLY logical conclusion is that you are physically beside each target when you make the melee spell attack.
(on the point in blue) Maybe that's so, but the spell doesn't tell us that. Spells only tell us what they do. If it did tell us that explicitly, I'd have no problem with your ruling.
I guess I'm not sure how you make a melee spell attack when neither you nor anything else you control are in melee range. If you're okay doing the mental gymnastics to make that work out, go for it.
But keep in mind that the very first thing you do after flourishing your weapon is "vanish to strike like the wind". So, I guess you think you start moving really fast to hold still and then teleport when you're done holding still really fast.
An example of a spell effect that would do what Arnt and BigBoss are wanting:
"Select up to 5 creatures you can see within range. you teleport to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of each creature (you choose the order) and make a melee weapon attack against it before teleporting to the next location. On a hit, you deal the weapons damage + (x force damage, etc). Once all attacks are made, you can choose to teleport back to your starting position before the spell ends."
See how this version clearly defines teleporting between attacks, the order in which the teleporting happens, and that the attacks are made with the selected weapon? SWS as written does none of those things the way this spell does, but it is equally clear: you attack five times with a spell attack, then teleport.
You left out a very key word in your description: "you attack five times with a melee spell attack".
I said "melee weapon attack" in my version...that very plainly calls out using the weapon in hand, and matches language used in other spells where the weapon component is actually used to make an attack inside the spell effect.
Again, why does the spell require a melee weapon in both the material component and the description if the weapon doesn't factor into the spell in any way shape or form? It even has a cost, so you cannot cast this spell without a melee weapon. If you never hit anything with the melee weapon, why would you need it? It doesn't say that the weapon disappears and shoots around the battlefield, it says that the caster disappears. Why would you just blip out, cast up to five force beams (that are somehow cast at melee distance when you yourself are 30 feet away) and then blip back right to where you were?
I never said it doesn't factor at all. It is clearly a material component and clearly has to be flourished (somatic component). However, nothing in the SWS spell description that follows states that the attack is made with the weapon. Spells only do what they say they do, and nothing more.
I think that the melee spell attack makes it pretty clear that the caster is beside each of the targets when the attack is made. Now, if it said ranged spell attack, then you would be 100% right. But since it says its a melee spell attack, you're 100% wrong. JC agrees:
You've quoted the same damn tweet at me twice now as if I didn't read it? I did, and i also noted it's not RAW, as it never made it into the SAC. The tweet was addressing if the spell description gave you advantage on attacks from being unseen, not in how effects like Spirit Shroud worked with the spell. If that was the RAI of the spell, then they did a piss-poor job translating that into text, because the RAW is not anywhere close to that intent (to get that intent, see the alternate I wrote, which is much, much clearer in articulating that intent in the same rough amount of text
There is a reason the tweet keeps being brought up. The tweet was written by Jeremy Crawford the Lead Rules Designer for Wizards of the Coast AKA Dungeons and Dragons. When he makes a clarification on twitter (and he often does) his word is law, because he's the one that wrote the rules in the first place. There is really no reason to debate this any longer.
Also ArntltheBest laid it out pretty well covering how melee spell attacks work. They do what they do. Melee means just that, melee, hand to hand, or weapon to hand, or weapon to face. If you want it to do something else thats fine. Flavor text it or talk to your DM or house rule it.
All except Thorn Whip and Steel Wind Strike involve summoning something for a duration greater than one turn and making melee spell attacks within 5 ft. of the summoned weapon/creature. With Thorn Whip, "you create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns", which presumably has a reach of 30 ft. (think of it as an extra long Whip or Scorpion's "GET OVER HERE").
That leaves Steel Wind Strike. The only way that you could possibly make melee attacks is if you summoned something by each target OR if you were physically beside each target. Now, since you start the spell by vanishing, and the end result of the spell would allow you to appear beside one of these targets, the ONLY logical conclusion is that you are physically beside each target when you make the melee spell attack.
(on the point in blue) Maybe that's so, but the spell doesn't tell us that. Spells only tell us what they do. If it did tell us that explicitly, I'd have no problem with your ruling.
I guess I'm not sure how you make a melee spell attack when neither you nor anything else you control are in melee range. If you're okay doing the mental gymnastics to make that work out, go for it.
But keep in mind that the very first thing you do after flourishing your weapon is "vanish to strike like the wind". So, I guess you think you start moving really fast to hold still and then teleport when you're done holding still really fast.
What makes you think the spell doesn't create a bunch of spiritual weapon-like magical attacking weapons allowing the spell effect to be instantaneous? There's literally just as much textual justification for that interpretation as there is for "you physically are next to each target." If you think your conclusion is the only logical one, that's just a lack of imagination.
All except Thorn Whip and Steel Wind Strike involve summoning something for a duration greater than one turn and making melee spell attacks within 5 ft. of the summoned weapon/creature. With Thorn Whip, "you create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns", which presumably has a reach of 30 ft. (think of it as an extra long Whip or Scorpion's "GET OVER HERE").
That leaves Steel Wind Strike. The only way that you could possibly make melee attacks is if you summoned something by each target OR if you were physically beside each target. Now, since you start the spell by vanishing, and the end result of the spell would allow you to appear beside one of these targets, the ONLY logical conclusion is that you are physically beside each target when you make the melee spell attack.
(on the point in blue) Maybe that's so, but the spell doesn't tell us that. Spells only tell us what they do. If it did tell us that explicitly, I'd have no problem with your ruling.
I guess I'm not sure how you make a melee spell attack when neither you nor anything else you control are in melee range. If you're okay doing the mental gymnastics to make that work out, go for it.
But keep in mind that the very first thing you do after flourishing your weapon is "vanish to strike like the wind". So, I guess you think you start moving really fast to hold still and then teleport when you're done holding still really fast.
To clarify for everyone, spells like Spiritual weapon and Blade of Disaster are melee attacks because you are still controlling the blade even though it is not in your hand. This is all based on the concept of the Dancing weapon: It could be released from your hand to swing and fight on its own and then could return to your hand after some time. They're is also a shield does a similar thing but protects you instead. The melee is between the creature being attacked and the weapon in question even though you, the castor are not 5 feet away from it, you're still controlling the weapon as if it was in your hand. Some DMs even let players grasp the Spiritual weapon and wield it like a normal weapon. This is seen a couple of times on Critical Role with Jester's Lollipop mace and during the Dalen's Closet episode where Pike summons a Bow for Vex. Personally i wouldn't normally allow that but they are lvl 20 so isee why matt would let them.
Frankly I’m really questioning some of the mechanics behind steel wind strike now with all of these different perspectives. also Crawford’s old guidance that seems counter to how the spell is written, and older rulings about similarly written spells. I’ve been using this spell for quite a while with my war wizard. I’m going to have a conversation with my DM and table about this, though we probably won’t change anything for the current campaign.
it does seem to be affected by quite a few feats at least though.
mobile means you can pretty much teleport to anyone you even attempted to hit and walk away free since it’s all melee attacks.
spell sniper doubles its effective attack range. It also increases the teleport distance.
elven accuracy can drastically increase its DPR
Metamagic adept can choose distant spell to further increase the spells range by doubling the distance up to twice per long rest.
Frankly I’m really questioning some of the mechanics behind steel wind strike now with all of these different perspectives. also Crawford’s old guidance that seems counter to how the spell is written, and older rulings about similarly written spells. I’ve been using this spell for quite a while with my war wizard. I’m going to have a conversation with my DM and table about this, though we probably won’t change anything for the current campaign.
it does seem to be affected by quite a few feats at least though.
mobile means you can pretty much teleport to anyone you even attempted to hit and walk away free since it’s all melee attacks.
spell sniper doubles its effective attack range. It also increases the teleport distance.
elven accuracy can drastically increase its DPR
Metamagic adept can choose distant spell to further increase the spells range by doubling the distance up to twice per long rest.
I agree with all of your points except the teleport distance. You can appear within 5 feet because that is the range of a melee spell attack. I would not think that this would let you appear within 10 feet of a target, as you could not make a melee spell attack at that range.
Far as I can tell the way this spell is written RAW there's a very valid argument that spirit shroud wouldn't work beyond a 10ft radius. However from JC's tweet it's pretty clear the RAI interpretation of the spell in the form it was envisioned by the creators is that you are teleporting between points and making a melee attack with some conjured weapon, thus allowing several features including spirit shroud to apply to it.
Personally if I were DM'ing it I'd first ask the player how hey envision their spell working. Do they imagine them conjuring a number of blades in the air to hit their opponents? do they think of a bunch of shadow clones of themselves appearing to attack and them appearing in the spot of one of them? Or do they imagine their character teleporting between points at incredible speed and making the attacks themself? Assuming it was the latter I'd allow them to use it with spirit shroud at any range, but the two former I would not.
Don't forget too this comes with the interpretation they are instantaneously entering that area. This could be just as much of a negative as a positive in the case of any AOE effects that proc upon entering an area, which would balance out the potential power gain of combo'ing the spell with other spells and feats. Again though this is entirely dependent on DM ruling, and may cause additional problems with the spell such as "where precisely did you teleport to when you made this attack" etc.
Honestly in this case I do just think it's one of those times where RAW vs RAI aren't completely in sync and it's entirely up to DM's interpretation as to what to do when that scenario comes up, they have final arbitration of the rules afterall. But ultimately it may be a strong combo, but I doubt it's particularly game breaking to allow. Just make sure you talk to the DM about it & see what they say, how you both envision the spell, and what the consequences of this choice may be on how rulings are made.
For what my 2 cents are worth, this is one of the cases where I don't really care what JC thinks and I'm willing to overlook the technicality of the RAW if 1) the combo is not that powerful and 2) the RAW shuts down some of the cool factor of the spell. Spirit Shroud + SWS fits both of those criteria so I'd allow it to work as a houserule.
What makes you think the spell doesn't create a bunch of spiritual weapon-like magical attacking weapons allowing the spell effect to be instantaneous?
This is a valid point and I very much support changing descriptions to better fit RAW in cases like this where the two don't mesh well. However, the way the spell is described will lead 95% of players to visualize a Nightcrawler-style teleport-a-palooza and telling them that no, their imagination is wrong and this is what you should be imagining is not always an elegant solution.
Sometimes you do have to tell players "that's not how the spell works," because their interpretation would break the scene/encounter/campaign. Sometimes you let small things slide to preserve the rule of cool. Spirit Shroud + SWS falls into the latter category for me. However, as a player of course I'd respect the DM's ruling if they felt otherwise.
I would argue that the fact that you vanish, the enemies are struck, and then you can appear beside one (all RAW) make the only reasonable interpretation is that you are teleporting between targets.
You wouldn't need to vanish to summon spectral weapons or make illusory duplicate. The teleporting is not really against the RAW, it's just not explicitly spelled out.
I would argue that the fact that you vanish, the enemies are struck, and then you can appear beside one (all RAW) make the only reasonable interpretation is that you are teleporting between targets.
You wouldn't need to vanish to summon spectral weapons or make illusory duplicate. The teleporting is not really against the RAW, it's just not explicitly spelled out.
RAW means “Rules as Written”, not “Rules as written plus extra stuff because I think it would be cool”. RAW, you teleport exactly once, after the attacks occur, because the language clearly says you attack, THEN you teleport.
Vanishing is not teleporting. Nowhere in the game does teleporting use that term. To say anything otherwise is to go beyond RAW. If you disagree then find one other example of that word used in a relevant way to teleportation and show it here
if you believe your interpretation is in line with JCs ruling (which I throw out because it did not make it into the SAC, and because it opens up a host of other issues with both the spell itself and with other game effects), then you are at best following RAI or RAF. That is fine if you are the DM of if the DM allows, but it is not RAW
There is a reason the tweet keeps being brought up. The tweet was written by Jeremy Crawford the Lead Rules Designer for Wizards of the Coast AKA Dungeons and Dragons. When he makes a clarification on twitter (and he often does)his word is law, because he's the one that wrote the rules in the first place. There is really no reason to debate this any longer.
Also ArntltheBest laid it out pretty well covering how melee spell attacks work. They do what they do. Melee means just that, melee, hand to hand, or weapon to hand, or weapon to face. If you want it to do something else thats fine. Flavor text it or talk to your DM or house rule it.
Only what gets put into the SAC--which also explicitly states that JC's tweets are not rules--is an official ruling.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
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You left out a very key word in your description: "you attack five times with a melee spell attack". Again, why does the spell require a melee weapon in both the material component and the description if the weapon doesn't factor into the spell in any way shape or form? It even has a cost, so you cannot cast this spell without a melee weapon. If you never hit anything with the melee weapon, why would you need it? It doesn't say that the weapon disappears and shoots around the battlefield, it says that the caster disappears. Why would you just blip out, cast up to five force beams (that are somehow cast at melee distance when you yourself are 30 feet away) and then blip back right to where you were?
I think that the melee spell attack makes it pretty clear that the caster is beside each of the targets when the attack is made. Now, if it said ranged spell attack, then you would be 100% right. But since it says its a melee spell attack, you're 100% wrong. JC agrees:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/963484164333846528
Spiritual Weapon:
What part of that makes you think it's not the summoned weapon? What part of that makes you think you're attacking with anything except the summoned weapon..? Do your weapons deal 1d8 force + spellcasting mod?
Do your weapons deal more damage when upcasting this spell? No, but the damage from the object created by this spell does.
How would you even be making melee attacks against a creature up to 60 feet away? Do you have some kind of ridiculously long weapon that can reach that far? Then why would you need the spell? Do you think the spell lets you instantly teleport to the location of the summoned object, make an attack with your own weapon, and teleport back to your starting space? Where does it say that? It doesn't.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Okay, so I looked up all spells with a melee spell attack component. Six of these spells have a range greater than touch/self: Thorn Whip, Spiritual Weapon, Faithful Hound, Steel Wind Strike, Mordenkainen's Sword, and Blade of Disaster.
All except Thorn Whip and Steel Wind Strike involve summoning something for a duration greater than one turn and making melee spell attacks within 5 ft. of the summoned weapon/creature. With Thorn Whip, "you create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns", which presumably has a reach of 30 ft. (think of it as an extra long Whip or Scorpion's "GET OVER HERE").
That leaves Steel Wind Strike. The only way that you could possibly make melee attacks is if you summoned something by each target OR if you were physically beside each target. Now, since you start the spell by vanishing, and the end result of the spell would allow you to appear beside one of these targets, the ONLY logical conclusion is that you are physically beside each target when you make the melee spell attack.
Did you actually read my post? That whole sentence is the spell equivalent of an opening statement; a summary of the mechanical rules that follow to help with flavor. Nearly every spell starts with a similar opening phrase; it is not itself a mechanic or a rule. Vanish is not a game term, and it is most certainly not associated with teleportation. No other teleportation spell, not misty step, dimension door, or any other. In fact, only 4 spells in the whole game use that word, two in reference to inter-planar travel (Blink and Wristpocket) and one in reference to temporal travel (Temporal Shunt).
Not in the SAC, so it's not an official ruling, and certainly not RAW (RAI maybe, but this is one of the most egregious examples of RAW/RAI mismatch if so). His interpretation also does not align whatsoever with the text of the spell. Also, components don't factor into the spell, except that you must be holding them when you cast it (per RAW), and any way the spell itself describes. Other spells might specifically call you to make an attack with the weapon (Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade). This one doesn't; it only requires you to flourish the weapon, with no written indication the weapon is part of the attack or used to make the attack at all. And Thorn Whip is a melee spell attack at 30 feet of range.
I said "melee weapon attack" in my version...that very plainly calls out using the weapon in hand, and matches language used in other spells where the weapon component is actually used to make an attack inside the spell effect.
I never said it doesn't factor at all. It is clearly a material component and clearly has to be flourished (somatic component). However, nothing in the SWS spell description that follows states that the attack is made with the weapon. Spells only do what they say they do, and nothing more.
You've quoted the same damn tweet at me twice now as if I didn't read it? I did, and i also noted it's not RAW, as it never made it into the SAC. The tweet was addressing if the spell description gave you advantage on attacks from being unseen, not in how effects like Spirit Shroud worked with the spell. If that was the RAI of the spell, then they did a piss-poor job translating that into text, because the RAW is not anywhere close to that intent (to get that intent, see the alternate I wrote, which is much, much clearer in articulating that intent in the same rough amount of text
If your DM does decide that your spirit shroud applies as if you had occupied a position steel wind strike never said you occupied, keep in mind that this does mean you will be subjected to any enemy auras, AOEs, or environmental hazards.
Also, how would that work if the enemy doesn't have an unoccupied space near them? According to the spell description it doesn't matter, but according to "I attack from within 5 ft of them" logic it does.
(on the point in blue) Maybe that's so, but the spell doesn't tell us that. Spells only tell us what they do. If it did tell us that explicitly, I'd have no problem with your ruling.
I guess I'm not sure how you make a melee spell attack when neither you nor anything else you control are in melee range. If you're okay doing the mental gymnastics to make that work out, go for it.
But keep in mind that the very first thing you do after flourishing your weapon is "vanish to strike like the wind". So, I guess you think you start moving really fast to hold still and then teleport when you're done holding still really fast.
Dang well i guess that settles it then.
There is a reason the tweet keeps being brought up. The tweet was written by Jeremy Crawford the Lead Rules Designer for Wizards of the Coast AKA Dungeons and Dragons. When he makes a clarification on twitter (and he often does) his word is law, because he's the one that wrote the rules in the first place. There is really no reason to debate this any longer.
Also ArntltheBest laid it out pretty well covering how melee spell attacks work. They do what they do. Melee means just that, melee, hand to hand, or weapon to hand, or weapon to face. If you want it to do something else thats fine. Flavor text it or talk to your DM or house rule it.
What makes you think the spell doesn't create a bunch of spiritual weapon-like magical attacking weapons allowing the spell effect to be instantaneous? There's literally just as much textual justification for that interpretation as there is for "you physically are next to each target." If you think your conclusion is the only logical one, that's just a lack of imagination.
To clarify for everyone, spells like Spiritual weapon and Blade of Disaster are melee attacks because you are still controlling the blade even though it is not in your hand. This is all based on the concept of the Dancing weapon: It could be released from your hand to swing and fight on its own and then could return to your hand after some time. They're is also a shield does a similar thing but protects you instead. The melee is between the creature being attacked and the weapon in question even though you, the castor are not 5 feet away from it, you're still controlling the weapon as if it was in your hand. Some DMs even let players grasp the Spiritual weapon and wield it like a normal weapon. This is seen a couple of times on Critical Role with Jester's Lollipop mace and during the Dalen's Closet episode where Pike summons a Bow for Vex. Personally i wouldn't normally allow that but they are lvl 20 so isee why matt would let them.
For any of you looking for a spell that conjures a “weapon” that you actually use to attack with, look at shadow blade or flame blade.
blade of disaster is different than spiritual weapon, as blade of disaster explicitly says you attack with the blade.
Frankly I’m really questioning some of the mechanics behind steel wind strike now with all of these different perspectives. also Crawford’s old guidance that seems counter to how the spell is written, and older rulings about similarly written spells. I’ve been using this spell for quite a while with my war wizard. I’m going to have a conversation with my DM and table about this, though we probably won’t change anything for the current campaign.
it does seem to be affected by quite a few feats at least though.
mobile means you can pretty much teleport to anyone you even attempted to hit and walk away free since it’s all melee attacks.
spell sniper doubles its effective attack range. It also increases the teleport distance.
elven accuracy can drastically increase its DPR
Metamagic adept can choose distant spell to further increase the spells range by doubling the distance up to twice per long rest.
I agree with all of your points except the teleport distance. You can appear within 5 feet because that is the range of a melee spell attack. I would not think that this would let you appear within 10 feet of a target, as you could not make a melee spell attack at that range.
Far as I can tell the way this spell is written RAW there's a very valid argument that spirit shroud wouldn't work beyond a 10ft radius. However from JC's tweet it's pretty clear the RAI interpretation of the spell in the form it was envisioned by the creators is that you are teleporting between points and making a melee attack with some conjured weapon, thus allowing several features including spirit shroud to apply to it.
Personally if I were DM'ing it I'd first ask the player how hey envision their spell working. Do they imagine them conjuring a number of blades in the air to hit their opponents? do they think of a bunch of shadow clones of themselves appearing to attack and them appearing in the spot of one of them? Or do they imagine their character teleporting between points at incredible speed and making the attacks themself? Assuming it was the latter I'd allow them to use it with spirit shroud at any range, but the two former I would not.
Don't forget too this comes with the interpretation they are instantaneously entering that area. This could be just as much of a negative as a positive in the case of any AOE effects that proc upon entering an area, which would balance out the potential power gain of combo'ing the spell with other spells and feats. Again though this is entirely dependent on DM ruling, and may cause additional problems with the spell such as "where precisely did you teleport to when you made this attack" etc.
Honestly in this case I do just think it's one of those times where RAW vs RAI aren't completely in sync and it's entirely up to DM's interpretation as to what to do when that scenario comes up, they have final arbitration of the rules afterall. But ultimately it may be a strong combo, but I doubt it's particularly game breaking to allow. Just make sure you talk to the DM about it & see what they say, how you both envision the spell, and what the consequences of this choice may be on how rulings are made.
For what my 2 cents are worth, this is one of the cases where I don't really care what JC thinks and I'm willing to overlook the technicality of the RAW if 1) the combo is not that powerful and 2) the RAW shuts down some of the cool factor of the spell. Spirit Shroud + SWS fits both of those criteria so I'd allow it to work as a houserule.
This is a valid point and I very much support changing descriptions to better fit RAW in cases like this where the two don't mesh well. However, the way the spell is described will lead 95% of players to visualize a Nightcrawler-style teleport-a-palooza and telling them that no, their imagination is wrong and this is what you should be imagining is not always an elegant solution.
Sometimes you do have to tell players "that's not how the spell works," because their interpretation would break the scene/encounter/campaign. Sometimes you let small things slide to preserve the rule of cool. Spirit Shroud + SWS falls into the latter category for me. However, as a player of course I'd respect the DM's ruling if they felt otherwise.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I would argue that the fact that you vanish, the enemies are struck, and then you can appear beside one (all RAW) make the only reasonable interpretation is that you are teleporting between targets.
You wouldn't need to vanish to summon spectral weapons or make illusory duplicate. The teleporting is not really against the RAW, it's just not explicitly spelled out.
RAW means “Rules as Written”, not “Rules as written plus extra stuff because I think it would be cool”. RAW, you teleport exactly once, after the attacks occur, because the language clearly says you attack, THEN you teleport.
Vanishing is not teleporting. Nowhere in the game does teleporting use that term. To say anything otherwise is to go beyond RAW. If you disagree then find one other example of that word used in a relevant way to teleportation and show it here
if you believe your interpretation is in line with JCs ruling (which I throw out because it did not make it into the SAC, and because it opens up a host of other issues with both the spell itself and with other game effects), then you are at best following RAI or RAF. That is fine if you are the DM of if the DM allows, but it is not RAW
That is spectacularly false. Nothing JC says on Twitter is official, to the point that he had to make an explicit statement about it.
Only what gets put into the SAC--which also explicitly states that JC's tweets are not rules--is an official ruling.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.