So if in the 6 seconds i notice people looking for threats that they cannot see.
It's simple: that never happens. If the NPCs win initiative, that is not because they noticed you. It's because they're fast enough that they don't need to notice you.
“Again, this is completely backwards. Use the mechanics, then determine the narrative. Not the other way around.”
Mechanics is iniative, combat order, my position in combat, ending combat to get a better initiative, stopping the other group from having a turn as long as possible as long as i keep up my stealth checks above their passive checks.
the only motivation is that i do not want to get killed. So if in the 6 seconds i notice people looking for threats that they cannot see.
So this isn’t about rules at all then? It is all meta-gaming to get better initiative?
Combat ends when the DM says it does, not when you want it to so you can start it again immediately for better initiative. If I were your DM (and I’m glad that I’m not), I’d remind you that combat ends when the fighting stops, not before it starts.
Maybe it's time to close the curtains on this discussion? It doesn't seem like new insights are being added at this point, and the dialogue has been running in circles for quite a while now. I'm not as invested in the discussion as some of you, but it seems to me to be a good time to agree to disagree and move on to less frustrating discussions.
What is against the RAW for combat? What you’ve been suggesting? I agree. I’m not sure what the point is anymore. Following the rules is not metagaming. No one is on the other side in a narrative game. Trying to break the game to get better initiative is bad gamesmanship. Following the rules isn’t, even if that means enemies win initiative.
“It's simple: that never happens. If the NPCs win initiative, that is not because they noticed you. It's because they're fast enough that they don't need to notice you.”
Its because their iniative roll is for their first active turn. Whixh they can act and attack faster than me.
No they can't. On their first turn they take no action, therefore you are taking the first action of the combat.
In RAW, there is no initiative without combat, and no combat without initiative.
When fighting starts, that's when the game refers to Chapter 9: Combat.
The DM can start combat by intending to attack the PCs, or the players can start combat by declaring they want to attack. It is not the attacking, but the *intent* to attack, that switches to combat mode.
Then you follow the steps outlined in that chapter:
1. Determine surprise. 2. Establish positions. 3. Roll initiative. 4. Take turns. 5. Begin the next round.
How to determine surprise is actually not easy, and the rules about how to are spread throughout the books.
If you do get the benefit of surprising your enemies, it may be detrimental that you act later in the initiative order than they do, but your intent to act was already made. I can easily justify (in my mind) that creatures read your body language, saw the glint of a weapon being drawn, or just had a sixth sense warning them.
In any case, even if they 'win' initiative, they still won't *act* before you do, and you still have an advantage in the action economy.
The designer's video about surprise intent and resolving initiative has already been shared in this thread (but for convenience:
There is also a video from Pack Tactics/Treantmonk:
In RAW, there is no initiative without combat, and no combat without initiative.
When fighting starts, that's when the game refers to Chapter 9: Combat.
The DM can start combat by intending to attack the PCs, or the players can start combat by declaring they want to attack. It is not the attacking, but the *intent* to attack, that switches to combat mode.
The players cannot start combat by declaring they want to attack. The DM starts combat. Full stop.
From your own rules link:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
The very first step is for the DM to act, even the 2nd step is for the DM to perform. Players aren't involved until all the way at step 3. Combat cannot be started by the players. It s the DM's job to do these things.
In RAW, there is no initiative without combat, and no combat without initiative.
When fighting starts, that's when the game refers to Chapter 9: Combat.
The DM can start combat by intending to attack the PCs, or the players can start combat by declaring they want to attack. It is not the attacking, but the *intent* to attack, that switches to combat mode.
The players cannot start combat by declaring they want to attack. The DM starts combat. Full stop.
From your own rules link:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
The very first step is for the DM to act, even the 2nd step is for the DM to perform. Players aren't involved until all the way at step 3. Combat cannot be started by the players. It s the DM's job to do these things.
This list is referred as "COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP" meaning the whole process is the resolution of combat. It can be initiated by either the players or the DM, depending on who makes the first hostile action; the PCs or NPCs.
If a player says "My character draws his sword and attacks" and the DM then takes that as a cue to begin the above steps, would you not see that as the player initiating combat?
In RAW, there is no initiative without combat, and no combat without initiative.
When fighting starts, that's when the game refers to Chapter 9: Combat.
The DM can start combat by intending to attack the PCs, or the players can start combat by declaring they want to attack. It is not the attacking, but the *intent* to attack, that switches to combat mode.
The players cannot start combat by declaring they want to attack. The DM starts combat. Full stop.
From your own rules link:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
The very first step is for the DM to act, even the 2nd step is for the DM to perform. Players aren't involved until all the way at step 3. Combat cannot be started by the players. It s the DM's job to do these things.
This list is referred as "COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP" meaning the whole process is the resolution of combat. It can be initiated by either the players or the DM, depending on who makes the first hostile action; the PCs or NPCs.
If a player says "My character draws his sword and attacks" and the DM then takes that as a cue to begin the above steps, would you not see that as the player initiating combat?
I definitely do ...
I think that sometimes viewing the DM as how the world reacts to the players actions is helpful to direct you in how things are intended to go.
A player attacking a creature usually starts combat. It might not if said creature is actually an illusion or maybe immediately surrenders but that's rare and not common.
This list is referred as "COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP" meaning the whole process is the resolution of combat. It can be initiated by either the players or the DM, depending on who makes the first hostile action; the PCs or NPCs.
If a player says "My character draws his sword and attacks" and the DM then takes that as a cue to begin the above steps, would you not see that as the player initiating combat?
But how would you handle it if, after rolling badly on initiative, the initiating player says 'I don't attack after all?'
"You stated intent and action before we rolled. I'm simply determining when you do it not if you do it"
If a creature was surprised by a hidden ambusher never finally moving or attacking to reveal itself in the first round, i would probablly explain that it was caught off guard by a perceived threat it thought it saw, heard or felt somehow.
But how would you handle it if, after rolling badly on initiative, the initiating player says 'I don't attack after all?'
Then nothing happens, specifically like this, assuming for simplicity 1 "PC" who is ambushing 1 "monster":
The DM determines the monster is surprised and the player is not.
The DM determines where the monster and player are relative to each other.
The DM rolls the initiative for the monster in secret, while the PC rolls initiative and tells the DM the number they got. Let's say the PC rolls a 5 and the monster rolls a 10 (remember, the PC does not know the monster's initiative).
The monster's turn happens, but the PC does not know that it happens. There's no available evidence telling the PC whether they a) achieved surprise and are acting first, b) achieved surprise and are acting second, or c) failed to achieve surprise but are acting first.
The PC's turn happens. The PC decides that 5 is dangerously low and changes their mind, doing nothing to reveal themselves to the monster.
The DM can now decide what to do - options are:
Maintain initiative so you can track when things are happening. If the PC wants to do anything with the monster where order of operations is important, this is a good choice.
End combat and go back to narrative time. If the PC is just going to let the monster go, this is a good choice.
This happens to me all the time in my current campaign. I play a Rogue and the DM will usually have me roll initiative when I get near an NPC while infiltrating, but I won't necessarily do anything on my turn just because the DM had me roll initiative - we use initiative for tracking when things happen, but that doesn't force us to engage in actual combat.
But how would you handle it if, after rolling badly on initiative, the initiating player says 'I don't attack after all?'
Unless new information other than the initiative roll comes up, the answer is "Yes you do. And next time, I'm rolling everyone's initiative behind the DMs screen".
But how would you handle it if, after rolling badly on initiative, the initiating player says 'I don't attack after all?'
Then nothing happens, specifically like this, assuming for simplicity 1 "PC" who is ambushing 1 "monster":
The DM determines the monster is surprised and the player is not.
The DM determines where the monster and player are relative to each other.
The DM rolls the initiative for the monster in secret, while the PC rolls initiative and tells the DM the number they got. Let's say the PC rolls a 5 and the monster rolls a 10 (remember, the PC does not know the monster's initiative).
The monster's turn happens, but the PC does not know that it happens. There's no available evidence telling the PC whether they a) achieved surprise and are acting first, b) achieved surprise and are acting second, or c) failed to achieve surprise but are acting first.
The PC's turn happens. The PC decides that 5 is dangerously low and changes their mind, doing nothing to reveal themselves to the monster.
The DM can now decide what to do - options are:
Maintain initiative so you can track when things are happening. If the PC wants to do anything with the monster where order of operations is important, this is a good choice.
End combat and go back to narrative time. If the PC is just going to let the monster go, this is a good choice.
This happens to me all the time in my current campaign. I play a Rogue and the DM will usually have me roll initiative when I get near an NPC while infiltrating, but I won't necessarily do anything on my turn just because the DM had me roll initiative - we use initiative for tracking when things happen, but that doesn't force us to engage in actual combat.
I see that as metagaming... It's basically like saying you don't actually try to intimidate some one of you roll low on the check.... In both cases you stated your intent, a roll was called for, and you need to resolve the situation at that point.
So let’s say the rogue fires his crossbow at an enemy outside of combat. Time stops and everyone rolls initiative, including the rogue. That first shot the rogue took does not count as their turn in combat because it didn’t actually happen IN combat. I the rogue still gets their turn in the first combat round, so if it has the highest initiative then yes it can attack twice in a row, however the initial attack would mean the target is no longer surprised.
I prefer handling the situation in a different way taking the Devs suggestion on Dragon Talk: Sage Advice The moment someone signal intent to attack, as a DM i determine surprise, establish positions, have everyone roll initiative and take turns in order accordingly.
So let’s say the rogue fires his crossbow at an enemy outside of combat. Time stops and everyone rolls initiative, including the rogue. That first shot the rogue took does not count as their turn in combat because it didn’t actually happen IN combat. I the rogue still gets their turn in the first combat round, so if it has the highest initiative then yes it can attack twice in a row, however the initial attack would mean the target is no longer surprised.
Combat starts when the rogue decides he wants to attack. Not after he already did. 5e doesn't have surprise rounds. Attacks happen within combat, not outside it.
Everything outside combat can be handled with narration and whatnot. Or rules found in other chapters of the phb aside from chapter 9: combat. Eg. chapter 8: adventuring.
But if your player is trying to attack someone, start combat right then and there. Not after the attack.
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It's simple: that never happens. If the NPCs win initiative, that is not because they noticed you. It's because they're fast enough that they don't need to notice you.
So this isn’t about rules at all then? It is all meta-gaming to get better initiative?
Combat ends when the DM says it does, not when you want it to so you can start it again immediately for better initiative. If I were your DM (and I’m glad that I’m not), I’d remind you that combat ends when the fighting stops, not before it starts.
Maybe it's time to close the curtains on this discussion?
It doesn't seem like new insights are being added at this point, and the dialogue has been running in circles for quite a while now.
I'm not as invested in the discussion as some of you, but it seems to me to be a good time to agree to disagree and move on to less frustrating discussions.
What is against the RAW for combat? What you’ve been suggesting? I agree. I’m not sure what the point is anymore. Following the rules is not metagaming. No one is on the other side in a narrative game. Trying to break the game to get better initiative is bad gamesmanship. Following the rules isn’t, even if that means enemies win initiative.
No they can't. On their first turn they take no action, therefore you are taking the first action of the combat.
In RAW, there is no initiative without combat, and no combat without initiative.
When fighting starts, that's when the game refers to Chapter 9: Combat.
The DM can start combat by intending to attack the PCs, or the players can start combat by declaring they want to attack. It is not the attacking, but the *intent* to attack, that switches to combat mode.
Then you follow the steps outlined in that chapter:
1. Determine surprise.
2. Establish positions.
3. Roll initiative.
4. Take turns.
5. Begin the next round.
How to determine surprise is actually not easy, and the rules about how to are spread throughout the books.
If you do get the benefit of surprising your enemies, it may be detrimental that you act later in the initiative order than they do, but your intent to act was already made. I can easily justify (in my mind) that creatures read your body language, saw the glint of a weapon being drawn, or just had a sixth sense warning them.
In any case, even if they 'win' initiative, they still won't *act* before you do, and you still have an advantage in the action economy.
The designer's video about surprise intent and resolving initiative has already been shared in this thread (but for convenience:
There is also a video from Pack Tactics/Treantmonk:
and one from Treantmonk:
that touch on the subject.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
The players cannot start combat by declaring they want to attack. The DM starts combat. Full stop.
From your own rules link:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction.
3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
The very first step is for the DM to act, even the 2nd step is for the DM to perform. Players aren't involved until all the way at step 3. Combat cannot be started by the players. It s the DM's job to do these things.
I got quotes!
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ModeratorThis list is referred as "COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP" meaning the whole process is the resolution of combat. It can be initiated by either the players or the DM, depending on who makes the first hostile action; the PCs or NPCs.
If a player says "My character draws his sword and attacks" and the DM then takes that as a cue to begin the above steps, would you not see that as the player initiating combat?
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I definitely do ...
I think that sometimes viewing the DM as how the world reacts to the players actions is helpful to direct you in how things are intended to go.
A player attacking a creature usually starts combat. It might not if said creature is actually an illusion or maybe immediately surrenders but that's rare and not common.
Player charactes can declare intent of action that cause DMs to start exploration, social or combat encounter.
"You stated intent and action before we rolled. I'm simply determining when you do it not if you do it"
If a creature was surprised by a hidden ambusher never finally moving or attacking to reveal itself in the first round, i would probablly explain that it was caught off guard by a perceived threat it thought it saw, heard or felt somehow.
Then nothing happens, specifically like this, assuming for simplicity 1 "PC" who is ambushing 1 "monster":
This happens to me all the time in my current campaign. I play a Rogue and the DM will usually have me roll initiative when I get near an NPC while infiltrating, but I won't necessarily do anything on my turn just because the DM had me roll initiative - we use initiative for tracking when things happen, but that doesn't force us to engage in actual combat.
Unless new information other than the initiative roll comes up, the answer is "Yes you do. And next time, I'm rolling everyone's initiative behind the DMs screen".
I see that as metagaming... It's basically like saying you don't actually try to intimidate some one of you roll low on the check.... In both cases you stated your intent, a roll was called for, and you need to resolve the situation at that point.
So let’s say the rogue fires his crossbow at an enemy outside of combat. Time stops and everyone rolls initiative, including the rogue. That first shot the rogue took does not count as their turn in combat because it didn’t actually happen IN combat. I the rogue still gets their turn in the first combat round, so if it has the highest initiative then yes it can attack twice in a row, however the initial attack would mean the target is no longer surprised.
I prefer handling the situation in a different way taking the Devs suggestion on Dragon Talk: Sage Advice The moment someone signal intent to attack, as a DM i determine surprise, establish positions, have everyone roll initiative and take turns in order accordingly.
Combat starts when the rogue decides he wants to attack. Not after he already did. 5e doesn't have surprise rounds. Attacks happen within combat, not outside it.
Everything outside combat can be handled with narration and whatnot. Or rules found in other chapters of the phb aside from chapter 9: combat. Eg. chapter 8: adventuring.
But if your player is trying to attack someone, start combat right then and there. Not after the attack.
I got quotes!