I was in a West Marches game last night, and the way the DM handled surprise, well, surprised me. I didn't question it in game, but I did ask about it afterwards (raising rules concerns is allowed per his table rules). Basically, he referred to it as a "surprise round" (which I know is not a thing in 5e), and only individuals who said they were going to try to surprise the enemy got to make use of it, and did so by having two turns in a row.
This is not at all how I understand surprise to work. This is how I have understood it: If one or more creatures are surprised, initiative order works as usual, but the surprised creatures don't get to take bonus actions, actions or reactions on their turn. (They can take reactions after their turn as I understand it.). So for example, the first round might look like this:
1) Player A: not surprised, actions etc. as usual
2) "monster" X: surprised: essentially does nothing this round
3) "monster" Y: not surprised, actions, etc. as usual
4) Player B: not surprised, actions, etc. as usual
5) Player C: not surprised, actions, etc. as usual
6) Monster Z: surprised: essentially does nothing this round
Last night when I went back to look at the rules, it didn't seem quite this clear to me, so I thought I'd ask. Is this RAW, or have I misunderstood the surprise rules?
NOTE: While the discord server in question for this west marches campaign does have some rules that are a bit different that RAW for some things, they don't list any changes to the surprise rules, and the DM's table rules didn't list any modifications. So it's not that.
Also, since tone is hard to read, let me say that I'm not annoyed or angry, just confused. The DM in question did say that they were going to go back and recheck the surprise rules, and in any event I'm o.k. with DMs running things they way they choose at their tables. The DM did a good job, and clearly knows the mechanics well. If anything, my guess would be that they have DM'd previous editions and there was some bleed over when it comes to surprise.
A lot of people don't care for the 5e Surprise Rules so, it gets reverted back to the Surprise Round Rules or Homebrew for many groups. Here is a thread that has been going on all week about it.
I'm sure many of the same posters will find their way here and help clear up your confusion of the RAW if the above thread doesn't answer all your questions.
You understand it correctly. Your DM's house rule of 2 turns in a row will have strange interactions with the durations of a variety of mechanics that the surprise rules are not intended to have.
The big caveat to warn you about in terms of the PHB's rules on surprise is that they contradict the SAC, and most DMs follow the SAC - but the difference lies in determining who is surprised and who isn't, not the mechanics of how surprise works after that determination.
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the others aren't."
Seems pretty clear to me, other than to say that nobody who is surprised can take a reaction until the turn ends, e.g. everyone in the initiative order has had a turn. If you are second in the initiative order out of six, then you cannot make use of a Reaction until all six creatures have had a turn.
You understand it correctly. Your DM's house rule of 2 turns in a row will have strange interactions with the durations of a variety of mechanics that the surprise rules are not intended to have.
The big caveat to warn you about in terms of the PHB's rules on surprise is that they contradict the SAC, and most DMs follow the SAC - but the difference lies in determining who is surprised and who isn't, not the mechanics of how surprise works after that determination.
-The interesting thing is that the DM didn't think this was a houserule; He thought the way he was doing it was RAW....or at least RAI.
-SAC? I know a lot of 5e abbreviations, but that's one I don't know. EDIT: Oh, it's Sage Advice Compendium.
A lot of people don't care for the 5e Surprise Rules so, it gets reverted back to the Surprise Round Rules or Homebrew for many groups. Here is a thread that has been going on all week about it.
I'm sure many of the same posters will find their way here and help clear up your confusion of the RAW if the above thread doesn't answer all your questions.
Thanks, but neither you nor the thread you referred me to answers my question. I'm not asking why some people handle surprise differently, or when one should make house rules, or what house rules people make. I'm wanting to know if I have properly understood how surprise works RAW, and by extension, whether or not my take that the DM I had last night did not follow RAW for surprise is correct. Note that he believed he was following RAW and not using a house rule for surprise. It's his perogative to use a house rule if he chooses, but we had an (amicable) disagreement on what RAW actually says, and that's the clarity I'm seeking.
For context, I have for the last 7 years misunderstood/misremembered a rule about ranged fighters and disadvantage regarding 5' distance. I thought it only applied when the target was within 5 feet; I missed that if ANY enemy is within 5 feet of the ranged attacker, disadvantage applies. I learned differently in that same game. I went back and looked at the rules (during the game), and sure enough, he was right and I had misremembered/misunderstood. That experience (which, again, was not antgaonistic) left me wondering if I had also misunderstood surprise.
Chapter 9 of the Player's Handbook says that the first thing you do is check for Surprise.
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't."
Next up, you roll Initiative.
"The DM ranks the combatants in order from the one with the highest Dexterity check total to the one with the lowest. This is the order (called the initiative order) in which they act during each round. The initiative order remains the same from round to round.
If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures, and the players decide the order among their tied characters. The DM can decide the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character. Optionally, the DM can have the tied characters and monsters each roll a d20 to determine the order, highest roll going first."
Then things proceed in turns, by order of Initiative. Anyone who is Surprised stops moving, and can take no Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions during their turn. You go on down from there.
So in answer to your question, no, what your DM did isn't done according to the rules in the Player's Handbook, and the things in the Sage Advice Compendium don't modify this in any way.
It is however possible to effectively have 2 turns in a row due to surprise if a creature has rolled highest Initiative and is the only creature not surprised.
Not quite sure how that works. You're probably right but how does it work?
The attacker can't be surprised, if there are only two sides. If they go first, they act, and everyone else goes. If they don't attack, everyone just stands around and waits, but the moment they attack, things go in order again. So I guess you could say two turns, but only if they don't attack. That could go for as many turns as the DM allows. Is that what you mean?
It is however possible to effectively have 2 turns in a row due to surprise if a creature has rolled highest Initiative and is the only creature not surprised.
I can see that, but that wasn’t the case in the situation that created confusion for me.
I think your understanding of RAW is correct and this is how I usually run surprise. In addition the PHB citations that others have quoted also support the example you described.
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the others aren't."
Seems pretty clear to me, other than to say that nobody who is surprised can take a reaction until the turn ends, e.g. everyone in the initiative order has had a turn. If you are second in the initiative order out of six, then you cannot make use of a Reaction until all six creatures have had a turn.
You are confusing turns with rounds. A turn is specific to each individual character. The entire set of turns by all characters in combat constitutes a round. What this says that that a character will regain their reaction at the conclusion of their first turn in combat, regardless of whether any other creatures have had a turn or not. The "that turn" that you highlighted is referring to "your first turn of the combat", earlier in the sentence.
Yeah, the 5e surprise rules are not too popular, especially for an Assassin Rogue! Assassin Rogues only get their class perk if they attack before their target has had a turn, not taken an action.
So if an Assassin Rogue gets the drop on somebody, but fumbles their Initiative roll, they lose their main feature, even though their target sat there looking shocked on their "turn". Because of this, many DMs have gone back to the Surprise Round of previous editions where Initiative is still rolled and tracked, but only creatures that are not surprised get to have a turn in the initial round of combat.
Actually, the Assassin Rogue has two features as part of Assassinate. If the Assassin is attacking anyone who has not taken their turn yet in combat they have advantage on their attack, regardless of any other factor. However, if a target is Surprised, the first attack from the Assassin is automatically a critical hit against that target. The only reliable way to Surprise an enemy is to attack from Stealth, which gives Advantage anyway.
The question I have is... when is a creature no longer considered "Surprised"? Like... Let's say that Assassin attacks Bandit and surprises him. Bandit rolls higher on Initiative, so technically gets the first turn of combat, but simply can't do anything with that turn. Is he still Surprised until the end of the round, or does hitting his Initiative end the Surprised condition?
Surprised ends when the creature ends it's first turn.
Okay, so in that case ArntItheBest is correct that an Assasin's Class Feature doesn't function if they get a bad Initiative roll, because that's just how Surprise works.
It is however possible to effectively have 2 turns in a row due to surprise if a creature has rolled highest Initiative and is the only creature not surprised.
its impossible to have 2 turns in a row unless youre alone in the initiative.While you may act twice before anyone else in combat due to surprise everyone still gets a turn its important to make this distinction as it may affect or be affected by other game element.
It is however possible to effectively have 2 turns in a row due to surprise if a creature has rolled highest Initiative and is the only creature not surprised.
its impossible to have 2 turns in a row unless youre alone in the initiative.While you may act twice before anyone else in combat due to surprise everyone still gets a turn its important to make this distinction as it may affect or be affected by other game element.
Yeah, the 5e surprise rules are not too popular, especially for an Assassin Rogue! Assassin Rogues only get their class perk if they attack before their target has had a turn, not taken an action.
So if an Assassin Rogue gets the drop on somebody, but fumbles their Initiative roll, they lose their main feature, even though their target sat there looking shocked on their "turn". Because of this, many DMs have gone back to the Surprise Round of previous editions where Initiative is still rolled and tracked, but only creatures that are not surprised get to have a turn in the initial round of combat.
Changing a core function of combat to appease a single badly worded subclass is not the way to handle it.
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I was in a West Marches game last night, and the way the DM handled surprise, well, surprised me. I didn't question it in game, but I did ask about it afterwards (raising rules concerns is allowed per his table rules). Basically, he referred to it as a "surprise round" (which I know is not a thing in 5e), and only individuals who said they were going to try to surprise the enemy got to make use of it, and did so by having two turns in a row.
This is not at all how I understand surprise to work. This is how I have understood it: If one or more creatures are surprised, initiative order works as usual, but the surprised creatures don't get to take bonus actions, actions or reactions on their turn. (They can take reactions after their turn as I understand it.). So for example, the first round might look like this:
1) Player A: not surprised, actions etc. as usual
2) "monster" X: surprised: essentially does nothing this round
3) "monster" Y: not surprised, actions, etc. as usual
4) Player B: not surprised, actions, etc. as usual
5) Player C: not surprised, actions, etc. as usual
6) Monster Z: surprised: essentially does nothing this round
Last night when I went back to look at the rules, it didn't seem quite this clear to me, so I thought I'd ask. Is this RAW, or have I misunderstood the surprise rules?
NOTE: While the discord server in question for this west marches campaign does have some rules that are a bit different that RAW for some things, they don't list any changes to the surprise rules, and the DM's table rules didn't list any modifications. So it's not that.
Also, since tone is hard to read, let me say that I'm not annoyed or angry, just confused. The DM in question did say that they were going to go back and recheck the surprise rules, and in any event I'm o.k. with DMs running things they way they choose at their tables. The DM did a good job, and clearly knows the mechanics well. If anything, my guess would be that they have DM'd previous editions and there was some bleed over when it comes to surprise.
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A lot of people don't care for the 5e Surprise Rules so, it gets reverted back to the Surprise Round Rules or Homebrew for many groups. Here is a thread that has been going on all week about it.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/113160-pre-combat-surprise-round-actions-ruling
I'm sure many of the same posters will find their way here and help clear up your confusion of the RAW if the above thread doesn't answer all your questions.
You understand it correctly. Your DM's house rule of 2 turns in a row will have strange interactions with the durations of a variety of mechanics that the surprise rules are not intended to have.
The big caveat to warn you about in terms of the PHB's rules on surprise is that they contradict the SAC, and most DMs follow the SAC - but the difference lies in determining who is surprised and who isn't, not the mechanics of how surprise works after that determination.
p189. of the Player's Handbook:
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the others aren't."
Seems pretty clear to me, other than to say that nobody who is surprised can take a reaction until the turn ends, e.g. everyone in the initiative order has had a turn. If you are second in the initiative order out of six, then you cannot make use of a Reaction until all six creatures have had a turn.
There is a (rather long) video out, where Jeremy Crawford explains the design intent behind the rules for initiative and surprise:
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
-The interesting thing is that the DM didn't think this was a houserule; He thought the way he was doing it was RAW....or at least RAI.
-SAC? I know a lot of 5e abbreviations, but that's one I don't know. EDIT: Oh, it's Sage Advice Compendium.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
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Thanks, but neither you nor the thread you referred me to answers my question. I'm not asking why some people handle surprise differently, or when one should make house rules, or what house rules people make. I'm wanting to know if I have properly understood how surprise works RAW, and by extension, whether or not my take that the DM I had last night did not follow RAW for surprise is correct. Note that he believed he was following RAW and not using a house rule for surprise. It's his perogative to use a house rule if he chooses, but we had an (amicable) disagreement on what RAW actually says, and that's the clarity I'm seeking.
For context, I have for the last 7 years misunderstood/misremembered a rule about ranged fighters and disadvantage regarding 5' distance. I thought it only applied when the target was within 5 feet; I missed that if ANY enemy is within 5 feet of the ranged attacker, disadvantage applies. I learned differently in that same game. I went back and looked at the rules (during the game), and sure enough, he was right and I had misremembered/misunderstood. That experience (which, again, was not antgaonistic) left me wondering if I had also misunderstood surprise.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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Chapter 9 of the Player's Handbook says that the first thing you do is check for Surprise.
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't."
Next up, you roll Initiative.
"The DM ranks the combatants in order from the one with the highest Dexterity check total to the one with the lowest. This is the order (called the initiative order) in which they act during each round. The initiative order remains the same from round to round.
If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures, and the players decide the order among their tied characters. The DM can decide the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character. Optionally, the DM can have the tied characters and monsters each roll a d20 to determine the order, highest roll going first."
Then things proceed in turns, by order of Initiative. Anyone who is Surprised stops moving, and can take no Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions during their turn. You go on down from there.
So in answer to your question, no, what your DM did isn't done according to the rules in the Player's Handbook, and the things in the Sage Advice Compendium don't modify this in any way.
<Insert clever signature here>
Your example is correct.
It is however possible to effectively have 2 turns in a row due to surprise if a creature has rolled highest Initiative and is the only creature not surprised.
Not quite sure how that works. You're probably right but how does it work?
The attacker can't be surprised, if there are only two sides. If they go first, they act, and everyone else goes. If they don't attack, everyone just stands around and waits, but the moment they attack, things go in order again. So I guess you could say two turns, but only if they don't attack. That could go for as many turns as the DM allows. Is that what you mean?
<Insert clever signature here>
I can see that, but that wasn’t the case in the situation that created confusion for me.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
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I think your understanding of RAW is correct and this is how I usually run surprise. In addition the PHB citations that others have quoted also support the example you described.
You are confusing turns with rounds. A turn is specific to each individual character. The entire set of turns by all characters in combat constitutes a round. What this says that that a character will regain their reaction at the conclusion of their first turn in combat, regardless of whether any other creatures have had a turn or not. The "that turn" that you highlighted is referring to "your first turn of the combat", earlier in the sentence.
Actually, the Assassin Rogue has two features as part of Assassinate. If the Assassin is attacking anyone who has not taken their turn yet in combat they have advantage on their attack, regardless of any other factor. However, if a target is Surprised, the first attack from the Assassin is automatically a critical hit against that target. The only reliable way to Surprise an enemy is to attack from Stealth, which gives Advantage anyway.
The question I have is... when is a creature no longer considered "Surprised"? Like... Let's say that Assassin attacks Bandit and surprises him. Bandit rolls higher on Initiative, so technically gets the first turn of combat, but simply can't do anything with that turn. Is he still Surprised until the end of the round, or does hitting his Initiative end the Surprised condition?
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How you understand it is RAW the DM is the one misunderstanding or misremembering the surprise rules .
Surprised ends when the creature ends it's first turn.
Okay, so in that case ArntItheBest is correct that an Assasin's Class Feature doesn't function if they get a bad Initiative roll, because that's just how Surprise works.
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its impossible to have 2 turns in a row unless youre alone in the initiative.While you may act twice before anyone else in combat due to surprise everyone still gets a turn its important to make this distinction as it may affect or be affected by other game element.
Hence why I wrote "effectively".
Changing a core function of combat to appease a single badly worded subclass is not the way to handle it.
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