Incapacitated is a pretty powerful condition. Normally, the only way to get that is if they are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, or Unconscious. Given the forum were are in, I note that it doesn't say they cannot take Bonus Actions. It just says "actions" and everyone knows that's only one of the three kinds. If you're willing to allow anyone who has Surprise that level of power, that's ok, as long as you follow all the rules for the resulting other Condition.
Incapacitated is a pretty powerful condition. Normally, the only way to get that is if they are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, or Unconscious. Given the forum were are in, I note that it doesn't say they cannot take Bonus Actions. It just says "actions" and everyone knows that's only one of the three kinds. If you're willing to allow anyone who has Surprise that level of power, that's ok, as long as you follow all the rules for the resulting other Condition.
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Surprise effectively is incapacitated until the end of your turn.
Incapacitated is a pretty powerful condition. Normally, the only way to get that is if they are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, or Unconscious. Given the forum were are in, I note that it doesn't say they cannot take Bonus Actions. It just says "actions" and everyone knows that's only one of the three kinds. If you're willing to allow anyone who has Surprise that level of power, that's ok, as long as you follow all the rules for the resulting other Condition.
A lot of the rules are 'nested' within each other.
Incapacitated does not seem to indicate that you can't move, but it does prevent you from taking actions, reactions and bonus actions, as:
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
So I think, a 'surprised' condition, nesting incapacitated and preventing movement, is actually right in the style of the rest of the books ;)
Actually, incapacitated by itself is one of the lesser conditions. The conditions you mentioned, that include it, are much more powerful.
I don't know. Incapacitated in and of itself is fairly powerful, but the point I was making about the other conditions that inflict it isn't so much the power of Incapacitated as much as how powerful the effects that inflict it are. Your talking about being able to inflict something on the level of turning them to stone, and always being able to do it first, no matter what Initiative is rolled. Is this an ability that gets a saving throw to resist the Incapacitated part?
It's just a matter of wording. Incapacitated 'just' prevents you from taking actions and reactions, which is what being surprised does, too. On top of that, being surprised also doesn't let you move. So if you used a 'surprised' condition as I wrote it above, that condition would merely express what being surprised does in terms of a condition.
I always found it... awkward... trying to figure out how to handle or explain surprise, and stating it in the way of a condition makes it easier (for me).
Combat in D&D is very much relying on turns, and attaches timers to 'end of your turn' or 'beginning of your next turn' and such. Just for that reason, a 'surprise round', or acting outside of combat in a 'bonus round' does not work well with the mechanics.
If you used 'surprised' as a condition, especially as a token marker on the grid or VTT, a lot of the confusion can be avoided.
Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction.
Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
You just need to follow the recipe as you do for any other combat, and remove the 'surprised' condition at the end of the surprised creature's first turn.
Even the way it's worded in the Combat Step by Step chart, it sounds like surprised is supposed to be a condition.
In any way, this is how it makes it easier on me, if you can navigate it easier another way, keep doing that :)
It's just a matter of wording. Incapacitated 'just' prevents you from taking actions and reactions, which is what being surprised does, too. On top of that, being surprised also doesn't let you move. So if you used a 'surprised' condition as I wrote it above, that condition would merely express what being surprised does in terms of a condition.
I always found it... awkward... trying to figure out how to handle or explain surprise, and stating it in the way of a condition makes it easier (for me).
Combat in D&D is very much relying on turns, and attaches timers to 'end of your turn' or 'beginning of your next turn' and such. Just for that reason, a 'surprise round', or acting outside of combat in a 'bonus round' does not work well with the mechanics.
If you used 'surprised' as a condition, especially as a token marker on the grid or VTT, a lot of the confusion can be avoided.
Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction.
Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
You just need to follow the recipe as you do for any other combat, and remove the 'surprised' condition at the end of the surprised creature's first turn.
Even the way it's worded in the Combat Step by Step chart, it sounds like surprised is supposed to be a condition.
In any way, this is how it makes it easier on me, if you can navigate it easier another way, keep doing that :)
I could be wrong but my gut is telling me there exist additional rules for attacking incapacitated creatures, that being incapacitated, specifically, is required to open up additional offensive actions in some situations. I can't recall any examples, so could be misremembering entirely. But, just a caution, if such a thing exists then calling the 'surprised' condition the 'incapacitated' condition would trigger those additional options too, which could lead to unforeseen interactions.
OH. No I do remember one interaction that would have HUGE implications:
I could be wrong but my gut is telling me there exist additional rules for attacking incapacitated creatures, that being incapacitated, specifically, is required to open up additional offensive actions in some situations. I can't recall any examples, so could be misremembering entirely. But, just a caution, if such a thing exists then calling the 'surprised' condition the 'incapacitated' condition would trigger those additional options too, which could lead to unforeseen interactions.
OH. No I do remember one interaction that would have HUGE implications:
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
It be better yeah. An even better feature would be as follow;
Assassinate: Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature during the first round. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet is a critical hit.
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
It be better yeah. An even better feature would be as follow;
Assassinate: Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature during the first round. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet is a critical hit.
Personally I'd keep the automatic critical on surprise; it's easier to build a Rogue for high Stealth (just pick it as an Expertise) than it is to build for high Initiative (requires a race and/or feat). While groups may not run surprise properly, if you're clear about what you're trying to use it for then it should still be possible to set it up when you can launch an ambush, or otherwise attack someone suddenly (e.g- stabbing a dignitary at a social function).
Advantage in the first round is already automatic sneak attack nearly every first round (unless obscured or whatever) so that's already a big boost, so it doesn't matter as much if the critical requires a bit of effort/working with the DM to setup. Plus enemy perception doesn't usually get that high except for certain boss creatures, which means a Rogue with Expertise can be impossible to spot with a decent roll (and Reliable Talent eventually makes it impossible to get a bad one).
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Assassinate is too situational and rarely benefit a rogue at its fullest, being frequently unusable due to either rolling lower initiative or failing to surprise enemies by your ou your party's fault.
Such version would always benefit you regardless of your initiative or your party fault.
Assassinate is too situational and rarely benefit a rogue at its fullest, being frequently unusable due to either rolling lower initiative or failing to surprise enemies by your ou your party's fault.
Such version would always benefit you regardless of your initiative or your party fault.
I'm not disagreeing with changing it to always being advantage in the first round, I'm just saying that tying the critical to initiative is in some ways worse as you no longer have the option of setting it up for yourself, as RAW surprised enemies can still beat your initiative roll, so you'd no longer be getting criticals in situations that you can currently engineer the situation in your favour.
People may have trouble with surprise, but it is possible to set it up, and it's easier to build a Rogue to beat enemy perception than it is to build one to beat their initiative rolls. Tying the critical to initiative makes it more random, and means you have to go after targets that take their turn later than you, rather than aiming to hit the target you want, which isn't very assassin like.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
5e doesn't really consider a round to be where initiative rolls from lowest to highest. Rather, it calls the time it takes to get back to your turn a round.
5e doesn't really consider a round to be where initiative rolls from lowest to highest. Rather, it calls the time it takes to get back to your turn a round.
It does consider it in fact;
The Roder of Combat: A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a com bat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. O nce everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
5e doesn't really consider a round to be where initiative rolls from lowest to highest. Rather, it calls the time it takes to get back to your turn a round.
Yeah it is both. It is from one #value of initiative back around to that same #value. Used without a starting reference number it means from highest to lowest, the whole round. Used with a reference, like you suggest, say something with an effect that lasts a round but starts on your turn, is a "round from your turn" means back again around to whatever your initiative is.
The problem you have is that the Raw and Sage advice on Surprise is so bad that technically it can not coexist.
Surprise works by you doing or acting stealthily in some way that the DM asks for a stealth role on the action and it goes against anyone's passive perception that is in threat by you.
An example is dropping a fireball on your party members, You roll stealth, you use sorcery points, and you sculpt the fireball to hit the PVP person in the group you hate only and save the rest. Your actions create an Initiative trigger, that trigger means everyone involved has to roll to see the order of who goes first. Based on the passive perception you know who is surprised and not surprised before the roll.
This problem now becomes a metagaming problem, because you know before the fireball is cast that it is coming. I use this example for one reason, If there is only two of us in this fight, only two of us roll initiative, if you roll higher on your initiative than I do, you are technically going before my attack is actually made.
You the player know I am attacking you, you the character does not until it is my turn. On that turn you are no longer surprised based on you going first in Inititiative combat you do not even know is happening. Even if you do not have an action, movement, or reaction, you lose surprise at the end of your turn making it so you can react to my fireball. The fireball that you were surprised by. technically I used sorcery point and Counterspell does not work this time, but if I did not use it, you could counter the attack you did not know was coming.
The only way to do Surprise is in a round special for surprise that only exists when there is a need. It happens before combat in initiative and surprise lasts the whole round and not after a turn. During this surprise round, you can stop the threat that triggered it if you can and stop the attack from happening. Based on Initiative that attack is happening on their turn, but only on their turn does it happen.
So in an ambush encounter, I tell the DM I am going to attack when I see the person come into view. If I am hiding, that attack becomes a surprise attack, that attack does not happen until we do the initiative and it is my turn. I do not get to act on my attack right away, that would be combat outside of initiative.
Sage Advice, Surprise rule, and Combat mechanics have it so that you can metagame surprise and have it dropped before it is even applied.
That isn't how surprise works. You don't declare your action outside of initiative, you declare you are starting combat, initiative and surprise etc are rolled, then on your turn you declare your action.
Something else that is also NOT how surprise works in 5e is you have to be hidden from the target. In this case, passing a note/messaging the DM that you are starting PVP so they can assist in your betrayal is the correct way to this.
Hiding is not the only use of a stealth check. You can be stealthy without hiding.
And while most of us on these forums are not robots (i think running bots here is probably against ToS), declaring your intent and having the DM decide the course of action is an essential element to the game which leads inexorably to the result of rolling initiative before anyone gets to act. If the first person to shout “I hit it” wins initiative, then the game would devolve into a race to do just that.
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I always wondered why they didn't classify 'surprised' as a condition. It works just fine if you treat it like that.
Surprised - a creature that is surprised is incapacitated and can't move. The condition ends at the end of its first turn.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Would have made things easier.
Overall the reliance on the murky rules for a feature is the reason I think it needs a second look and maybe some changes.
Incapacitated is a pretty powerful condition. Normally, the only way to get that is if they are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, or Unconscious. Given the forum were are in, I note that it doesn't say they cannot take Bonus Actions. It just says "actions" and everyone knows that's only one of the three kinds. If you're willing to allow anyone who has Surprise that level of power, that's ok, as long as you follow all the rules for the resulting other Condition.
<Insert clever signature here>
Surprise effectively is incapacitated until the end of your turn.
A lot of the rules are 'nested' within each other.
Incapacitated does not seem to indicate that you can't move, but it does prevent you from taking actions, reactions and bonus actions, as:
So I think, a 'surprised' condition, nesting incapacitated and preventing movement, is actually right in the style of the rest of the books ;)
Actually, incapacitated by itself is one of the lesser conditions. The conditions you mentioned, that include it, are much more powerful.
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I don't know. Incapacitated in and of itself is fairly powerful, but the point I was making about the other conditions that inflict it isn't so much the power of Incapacitated as much as how powerful the effects that inflict it are. Your talking about being able to inflict something on the level of turning them to stone, and always being able to do it first, no matter what Initiative is rolled. Is this an ability that gets a saving throw to resist the Incapacitated part?
<Insert clever signature here>
It's just a matter of wording. Incapacitated 'just' prevents you from taking actions and reactions, which is what being surprised does, too. On top of that, being surprised also doesn't let you move. So if you used a 'surprised' condition as I wrote it above, that condition would merely express what being surprised does in terms of a condition.
I always found it... awkward... trying to figure out how to handle or explain surprise, and stating it in the way of a condition makes it easier (for me).
Combat in D&D is very much relying on turns, and attaches timers to 'end of your turn' or 'beginning of your next turn' and such. Just for that reason, a 'surprise round', or acting outside of combat in a 'bonus round' does not work well with the mechanics.
If you used 'surprised' as a condition, especially as a token marker on the grid or VTT, a lot of the confusion can be avoided.
You just need to follow the recipe as you do for any other combat, and remove the 'surprised' condition at the end of the surprised creature's first turn.
Even the way it's worded in the Combat Step by Step chart, it sounds like surprised is supposed to be a condition.
In any way, this is how it makes it easier on me, if you can navigate it easier another way, keep doing that :)
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
I could be wrong but my gut is telling me there exist additional rules for attacking incapacitated creatures, that being incapacitated, specifically, is required to open up additional offensive actions in some situations. I can't recall any examples, so could be misremembering entirely. But, just a caution, if such a thing exists then calling the 'surprised' condition the 'incapacitated' condition would trigger those additional options too, which could lead to unforeseen interactions.
OH. No I do remember one interaction that would have HUGE implications:
I got quotes!
Good one! Excellent example of nesting rules...
The 'surprised' condition in that case should not include incapacitated, and it makes more sense now to not include it in being surprised.
It still works as a condition of its own:
Surprised - a creature that is surprised can't take actions or reactions, and can't move. The condition ends at the end of its first turn.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Where is that quote from, please?
N/M: found it. PHB, section on Concentration.
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
It be better yeah. An even better feature would be as follow;
Personally I'd keep the automatic critical on surprise; it's easier to build a Rogue for high Stealth (just pick it as an Expertise) than it is to build for high Initiative (requires a race and/or feat). While groups may not run surprise properly, if you're clear about what you're trying to use it for then it should still be possible to set it up when you can launch an ambush, or otherwise attack someone suddenly (e.g- stabbing a dignitary at a social function).
Advantage in the first round is already automatic sneak attack nearly every first round (unless obscured or whatever) so that's already a big boost, so it doesn't matter as much if the critical requires a bit of effort/working with the DM to setup. Plus enemy perception doesn't usually get that high except for certain boss creatures, which means a Rogue with Expertise can be impossible to spot with a decent roll (and Reliable Talent eventually makes it impossible to get a bad one).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Assassinate is too situational and rarely benefit a rogue at its fullest, being frequently unusable due to either rolling lower initiative or failing to surprise enemies by your ou your party's fault.
Such version would always benefit you regardless of your initiative or your party fault.
I'm not disagreeing with changing it to always being advantage in the first round, I'm just saying that tying the critical to initiative is in some ways worse as you no longer have the option of setting it up for yourself, as RAW surprised enemies can still beat your initiative roll, so you'd no longer be getting criticals in situations that you can currently engineer the situation in your favour.
People may have trouble with surprise, but it is possible to set it up, and it's easier to build a Rogue to beat enemy perception than it is to build one to beat their initiative rolls. Tying the critical to initiative makes it more random, and means you have to go after targets that take their turn later than you, rather than aiming to hit the target you want, which isn't very assassin like.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
5e doesn't really consider a round to be where initiative rolls from lowest to highest. Rather, it calls the time it takes to get back to your turn a round.
It does consider it in fact;
Yeah it is both. It is from one #value of initiative back around to that same #value. Used without a starting reference number it means from highest to lowest, the whole round. Used with a reference, like you suggest, say something with an effect that lasts a round but starts on your turn, is a "round from your turn" means back again around to whatever your initiative is.
I got quotes!
That isn't how surprise works. You don't declare your action outside of initiative, you declare you are starting combat, initiative and surprise etc are rolled, then on your turn you declare your action.
Something else that is also NOT how surprise works in 5e is you have to be hidden from the target. In this case, passing a note/messaging the DM that you are starting PVP so they can assist in your betrayal is the correct way to this.
Hiding is not the only use of a stealth check. You can be stealthy without hiding.
And while most of us on these forums are not robots (i think running bots here is probably against ToS), declaring your intent and having the DM decide the course of action is an essential element to the game which leads inexorably to the result of rolling initiative before anyone gets to act. If the first person to shout “I hit it” wins initiative, then the game would devolve into a race to do just that.