75% is exceedingly generous based on the fact you aren't getting a bonus to initiative in any fashion from the subclass.
You (and your party) need to successfully stealth and catch an enemy or enemies by surprise.
Then you need to roll a higher initiative.
Then you need to actually hit.
The odds of all three happening even 25% of the time is being generous. I would say about 10% or less of the time will you meet all of the conditions to actually use the full ability.
I agree, this is exactly what I meant about "too many moving parts" earlier in reference to the Surprise Rule as it stands currently.
If you understand probability at all, you can see that the more elements you introduce to an equation, the lower the chance of any given outcome. Anyone remember the Challenger explosion? The chance that the part that failed, would not fail, was 87%. The problem was, there were 2 o-rings in each of 3 "field joints". If all o-rings had to remain in service, you figure that probability by multiplying the base 87% by itself as follows. (.87)*(.87)*(.87)*(.87)*(.87)*(.87)=.43 or only 43% chance of all o-rings remaining in service.
Welcome to D&D. We roll dice to randomly determine outcomes here.
I think the point is that the subclass itself confers no benefit to getting the leg up on your target....which combined with the abysmal design of the Assassinate feature makes it even worse.
You attack at advantage (ie sneak attack) plus automatically crit if you win initiative attacking from stealth. That's pretty significant.
Class features don't often allow for guaranteed critical hits. That's not really how D&D works, we roll dice to determine outcomes.
Increase odds? Yea, rerolls? sure. A bonus here or there? yeah ok.
Guaranteed critical hits every combat on round one just because? Naw.
You're asking for something crazy OP. Sorry, you need to reevaluate your expectations.
Win initiative and your attacks crit. That's already really fantastic.
It's not based on the infrequently of it and finicky nature of the ability.
I already posted what I think is a better ability that doesn't use crits or the silly surprise rules.
What’s wrong with Assassinate though then? In any combat where you attack from Stealth, there’s like a 75% chance of being able to use both features of this ability, and 75% chance of being able to use at least one feature in any combat without stealth.
I’d love to know what you find silly then, if the idea of infrequency isn’t the reason.
75% is exceedingly generous based on the fact you aren't getting a bonus to initiative in any fashion from the subclass.
You (and your party) need to successfully stealth and catch an enemy or enemies by surprise.
Then you need to roll a higher initiative.
Then you need to actually hit.
The odds of all three happening even 25% of the time is being generous. I would say about 10% or less of the time will you meet all of the conditions to actually use the full ability.
So let’s crunch some numbers:
The average creature in the game does not have a +5 Initiative modifier. Most rogues will have +5 around level 8. A conservative estimate puts the number of creatures with less than 16 Dex at around 540 (of about 700). That means you’ll have at least a +3 bonus on your initiative.
Comparing 1d20+3 vs 1d20 —> 66%
With probably a +8 to hit, with advantage you’ll be hitting AC 18 79.75% of the time.
So if you manage to sneak, that’s a 79.75% x 66% = 52.63% Chance of Assassinate.
Now let’s say you have a Dagger +1, and maybe a Stone or Good Luck (+1 Init).
Initiative wins 70% of the time. Hits AC 18 84% of the time. 58.8% chance of Assassinate.
Or maybe just a Dagger of Warning?
Initiative wins 81.3%. Hits AC 18 84% of the time. 68.29% chance of Assassinate.
Or maybe you take the Alert Feat at level 10, the Dagger of Warning, and a Stone of Good Luck?
Initiative is likely +8 higher than almost anything you will fight, giving you 93.67% chance of hitting first, a +9 to hit AC 18 at 87.75%, and a total chance of Assassinate at 82.19%.
And this doesn’t even cover the fact that even when you’re NOT sneaking, you get auto-advantage against everyone you beat in the initiative.
So no - it’s not even close to only being usable 25% of the time, unless you’re not playing with Stealth or your DM is particularly harsh about allowing you to sneak up on enemies, which are DM problems not class problems.
Finally, consider the damage difference:
Any other Level 8 Rogue attacking with sneak attack at AC 18 and a +8 to hit (using a d6 for weapon damage), will hit 79.75% of the time (average 3.5+5+14 = 22.5 average), and 9.75% of the time will be a critical hit (an extra 17.5 average). The average damage here is 17.94 + 1.71 = 19.65 average damage.
An Assassin with the same stats and getting an auto-crit: 31.9 average damage. A 62% increase in damage output.
So yeah - while some classes get a ribbon ability that will add 3-8% damage per round, this feature is adding 62% damage in one round. There is a valid reason it literally has more stopgaps than other Features.
EDIT:
And we haven’t even touched on the new Slasher/Piercer Feats that have special features when you crit.
A level 13 Assassin with a +10 to hit, Dagger of Warning, Stone of Good Luck, Alert and Piercer Feats, and a Rapier:
Will have a +8 advantage on initiatives and go first 93.67% of the time, will hit AC 18 87.75% of the time, and Assassinate 82.19% of the time.
The damage output will be 87.75%*(4.5+4.5+5+24.5+29) = 59.32 average damage.
The typical rogue at Level 13 with the same kit?
87.75%*(4.5+5+24.5) + 9.75% (4.5+29) = 29.84+3.27 = 33.11 average damage
Now it’s a 79% damage increase over a normal rogue attack.
Welcome to D&D. We roll dice to randomly determine outcomes here.
I think the point is that the subclass itself confers no benefit to getting the leg up on your target....which combined with the abysmal design of the Assassinate feature makes it even worse.
You attack at advantage (ie sneak attack) plus automatically crit if you win initiative attacking from stealth. That's pretty significant.
Class features don't often allow for guaranteed critical hits. That's not really how D&D works, we roll dice to determine outcomes.
Increase odds? Yea, rerolls? sure. A bonus here or there? yeah ok.
Guaranteed critical hits every combat on round one just because? Naw.
You're asking for something crazy OP. Sorry, you need to reevaluate your expectations.
Win initiative and your attacks crit. That's already really fantastic.
It's not based on the infrequently of it and finicky nature of the ability.
I already posted what I think is a better ability that doesn't use crits or the silly surprise rules.
What’s wrong with Assassinate though then? In any combat where you attack from Stealth, there’s like a 75% chance of being able to use both features of this ability, and 75% chance of being able to use at least one feature in any combat without stealth.
I’d love to know what you find silly then, if the idea of infrequency isn’t the reason.
75% is exceedingly generous based on the fact you aren't getting a bonus to initiative in any fashion from the subclass.
You (and your party) need to successfully stealth and catch an enemy or enemies by surprise.
Then you need to roll a higher initiative.
Then you need to actually hit.
The odds of all three happening even 25% of the time is being generous. I would say about 10% or less of the time will you meet all of the conditions to actually use the full ability.
So let’s crunch some numbers:
The average creature in the game does not have a +5 Initiative modifier. Most rogues will have +5 around level 8. A conservative estimate puts the number of creatures with less than 16 Dex at around 540 (of about 700). That means you’ll have at least a +3 bonus on your initiative.
Comparing 1d20+3 vs 1d20 —> 66%
With probably a +8 to hit, with advantage you’ll be hitting AC 18 79.75% of the time.
So if you manage to sneak, that’s a 79.75% x 66% = 52.63% Chance of Assassinate.
Now let’s say you have a Dagger +1, and maybe a Stone or Good Luck (+1 Init).
Initiative wins 70% of the time. Hits AC 18 84% of the time. 58.8% chance of Assassinate.
Or maybe just a Dagger of Warning?
Initiative wins 81.3%. Hits AC 18 84% of the time. 68.29% chance of Assassinate.
Or maybe you take the Alert Feat at level 10, the Dagger of Warning, and a Stone of Good Luck?
Initiative is likely +8 higher than almost anything you will fight, giving you 93.67% chance of hitting first, a +9 to hit AC 18 at 87.75%, and a total chance of Assassinate at 82.19%.
And this doesn’t even cover the fact that even when you’re NOT sneaking, you get auto-advantage against everyone you beat in the initiative.
So no - it’s not even close to only being usable 25% of the time, unless you’re not playing with Stealth or your DM is particularly harsh about allowing you to sneak up on enemies, which are DM problems not class problems.
Finally, consider the damage difference:
Any other Level 8 Rogue attacking with sneak attack at AC 18 and a +8 to hit (using a d6 for weapon damage), will hit 79.75% of the time (average 3.5+5+14 = 22.5 average), and 9.75% of the time will be a critical hit (an extra 17.5 average). The average damage here is 17.94 + 1.71 = 19.65 average damage.
An Assassin with the same stats and getting an auto-crit: 31.9 average damage. A 62% increase in damage output.
So yeah - while some classes get a ribbon ability that will add 3-8% damage per round, this feature is adding 62% damage in one round. There is a valid reason it literally has more stopgaps than other Features.
EDIT:
And we haven’t even touched on the new Slasher/Piercer Feats that have special features when you crit.
A level 13 Assassin with a +10 to hit, Dagger of Warning, Stone of Good Luck, Alert and Piercer Feats, and a Rapier:
Will have a +8 advantage on initiatives and go first 93.67% of the time, will hit AC 18 87.75% of the time, and Assassinate 82.19% of the time.
The damage output will be 87.75%*(4.5+4.5+5+24.5+29) = 59.32 average damage.
The typical rogue at Level 13 with the same kit?
87.75%*(4.5+5+24.5) + 9.75% (4.5+29) = 29.84+3.27 = 33.11 average damage
Now it’s a 79% damage increase over a normal rogue attack.
Lots of white room assumptions here... Assuming magic items and creatures with more low perception and no mention of your party and how they affect the numbers.
I see your point. It never says that Surprise ends, and "Surprised" isn't a Condition, so there are no special rules in place for how it is removed. If you're technical, and this is the forum for that, you can be attacked as many times as the attacker wants until the DM decides to do something, because even if your turn ends, you remain surprised. That would actually be worse than the old Surprise Round, at least that one ends.
People who refuse to accept the SAC is "official" remind me of the days when Gary Gygax used to post articles in Dragon Magazine, and maintained that since it was his game, and he wrote the rules, anything he decided to write down was Official Rules and should be treated as such. He was the God Of D&D. Now we have Jeremy Crawford in the same role.
The rules say "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
So, as soon as it is no longer "the start of the encounter" then the surprise no longer exists? ;-)
Incapacitated is a pretty powerful condition. Normally, the only way to get that is if they are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, or Unconscious. Given the forum were are in, I note that it doesn't say they cannot take Bonus Actions. It just says "actions" and everyone knows that's only one of the three kinds. If you're willing to allow anyone who has Surprise that level of power, that's ok, as long as you follow all the rules for the resulting other Condition.
Incapacitated is a pretty powerful condition. Normally, the only way to get that is if they are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, or Unconscious. Given the forum were are in, I note that it doesn't say they cannot take Bonus Actions. It just says "actions" and everyone knows that's only one of the three kinds. If you're willing to allow anyone who has Surprise that level of power, that's ok, as long as you follow all the rules for the resulting other Condition.
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Surprise effectively is incapacitated until the end of your turn.
Incapacitated is a pretty powerful condition. Normally, the only way to get that is if they are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, or Unconscious. Given the forum were are in, I note that it doesn't say they cannot take Bonus Actions. It just says "actions" and everyone knows that's only one of the three kinds. If you're willing to allow anyone who has Surprise that level of power, that's ok, as long as you follow all the rules for the resulting other Condition.
A lot of the rules are 'nested' within each other.
Incapacitated does not seem to indicate that you can't move, but it does prevent you from taking actions, reactions and bonus actions, as:
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
So I think, a 'surprised' condition, nesting incapacitated and preventing movement, is actually right in the style of the rest of the books ;)
Actually, incapacitated by itself is one of the lesser conditions. The conditions you mentioned, that include it, are much more powerful.
I don't know. Incapacitated in and of itself is fairly powerful, but the point I was making about the other conditions that inflict it isn't so much the power of Incapacitated as much as how powerful the effects that inflict it are. Your talking about being able to inflict something on the level of turning them to stone, and always being able to do it first, no matter what Initiative is rolled. Is this an ability that gets a saving throw to resist the Incapacitated part?
It's just a matter of wording. Incapacitated 'just' prevents you from taking actions and reactions, which is what being surprised does, too. On top of that, being surprised also doesn't let you move. So if you used a 'surprised' condition as I wrote it above, that condition would merely express what being surprised does in terms of a condition.
I always found it... awkward... trying to figure out how to handle or explain surprise, and stating it in the way of a condition makes it easier (for me).
Combat in D&D is very much relying on turns, and attaches timers to 'end of your turn' or 'beginning of your next turn' and such. Just for that reason, a 'surprise round', or acting outside of combat in a 'bonus round' does not work well with the mechanics.
If you used 'surprised' as a condition, especially as a token marker on the grid or VTT, a lot of the confusion can be avoided.
Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction.
Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
You just need to follow the recipe as you do for any other combat, and remove the 'surprised' condition at the end of the surprised creature's first turn.
Even the way it's worded in the Combat Step by Step chart, it sounds like surprised is supposed to be a condition.
In any way, this is how it makes it easier on me, if you can navigate it easier another way, keep doing that :)
It's just a matter of wording. Incapacitated 'just' prevents you from taking actions and reactions, which is what being surprised does, too. On top of that, being surprised also doesn't let you move. So if you used a 'surprised' condition as I wrote it above, that condition would merely express what being surprised does in terms of a condition.
I always found it... awkward... trying to figure out how to handle or explain surprise, and stating it in the way of a condition makes it easier (for me).
Combat in D&D is very much relying on turns, and attaches timers to 'end of your turn' or 'beginning of your next turn' and such. Just for that reason, a 'surprise round', or acting outside of combat in a 'bonus round' does not work well with the mechanics.
If you used 'surprised' as a condition, especially as a token marker on the grid or VTT, a lot of the confusion can be avoided.
Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction.
Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
You just need to follow the recipe as you do for any other combat, and remove the 'surprised' condition at the end of the surprised creature's first turn.
Even the way it's worded in the Combat Step by Step chart, it sounds like surprised is supposed to be a condition.
In any way, this is how it makes it easier on me, if you can navigate it easier another way, keep doing that :)
I could be wrong but my gut is telling me there exist additional rules for attacking incapacitated creatures, that being incapacitated, specifically, is required to open up additional offensive actions in some situations. I can't recall any examples, so could be misremembering entirely. But, just a caution, if such a thing exists then calling the 'surprised' condition the 'incapacitated' condition would trigger those additional options too, which could lead to unforeseen interactions.
OH. No I do remember one interaction that would have HUGE implications:
I could be wrong but my gut is telling me there exist additional rules for attacking incapacitated creatures, that being incapacitated, specifically, is required to open up additional offensive actions in some situations. I can't recall any examples, so could be misremembering entirely. But, just a caution, if such a thing exists then calling the 'surprised' condition the 'incapacitated' condition would trigger those additional options too, which could lead to unforeseen interactions.
OH. No I do remember one interaction that would have HUGE implications:
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
It be better yeah. An even better feature would be as follow;
Assassinate: Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature during the first round. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet is a critical hit.
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
It be better yeah. An even better feature would be as follow;
Assassinate: Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature during the first round. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet is a critical hit.
Personally I'd keep the automatic critical on surprise; it's easier to build a Rogue for high Stealth (just pick it as an Expertise) than it is to build for high Initiative (requires a race and/or feat). While groups may not run surprise properly, if you're clear about what you're trying to use it for then it should still be possible to set it up when you can launch an ambush, or otherwise attack someone suddenly (e.g- stabbing a dignitary at a social function).
Advantage in the first round is already automatic sneak attack nearly every first round (unless obscured or whatever) so that's already a big boost, so it doesn't matter as much if the critical requires a bit of effort/working with the DM to setup. Plus enemy perception doesn't usually get that high except for certain boss creatures, which means a Rogue with Expertise can be impossible to spot with a decent roll (and Reliable Talent eventually makes it impossible to get a bad one).
Assassinate is too situational and rarely benefit a rogue at its fullest, being frequently unusable due to either rolling lower initiative or failing to surprise enemies by your ou your party's fault.
Such version would always benefit you regardless of your initiative or your party fault.
Assassinate is too situational and rarely benefit a rogue at its fullest, being frequently unusable due to either rolling lower initiative or failing to surprise enemies by your ou your party's fault.
Such version would always benefit you regardless of your initiative or your party fault.
I'm not disagreeing with changing it to always being advantage in the first round, I'm just saying that tying the critical to initiative is in some ways worse as you no longer have the option of setting it up for yourself, as RAW surprised enemies can still beat your initiative roll, so you'd no longer be getting criticals in situations that you can currently engineer the situation in your favour.
People may have trouble with surprise, but it is possible to set it up, and it's easier to build a Rogue to beat enemy perception than it is to build one to beat their initiative rolls. Tying the critical to initiative makes it more random, and means you have to go after targets that take their turn later than you, rather than aiming to hit the target you want, which isn't very assassin like.
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
5e doesn't really consider a round to be where initiative rolls from lowest to highest. Rather, it calls the time it takes to get back to your turn a round.
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I agree, this is exactly what I meant about "too many moving parts" earlier in reference to the Surprise Rule as it stands currently.
If you understand probability at all, you can see that the more elements you introduce to an equation, the lower the chance of any given outcome. Anyone remember the Challenger explosion? The chance that the part that failed, would not fail, was 87%. The problem was, there were 2 o-rings in each of 3 "field joints". If all o-rings had to remain in service, you figure that probability by multiplying the base 87% by itself as follows. (.87)*(.87)*(.87)*(.87)*(.87)*(.87)=.43 or only 43% chance of all o-rings remaining in service.
So let’s crunch some numbers:
The average creature in the game does not have a +5 Initiative modifier. Most rogues will have +5 around level 8. A conservative estimate puts the number of creatures with less than 16 Dex at around 540 (of about 700). That means you’ll have at least a +3 bonus on your initiative.
Comparing 1d20+3 vs 1d20 —> 66%
With probably a +8 to hit, with advantage you’ll be hitting AC 18 79.75% of the time.
So if you manage to sneak, that’s a 79.75% x 66% = 52.63% Chance of Assassinate.
Now let’s say you have a Dagger +1, and maybe a Stone or Good Luck (+1 Init).
Initiative wins 70% of the time. Hits AC 18 84% of the time. 58.8% chance of Assassinate.
Or maybe just a Dagger of Warning?
Initiative wins 81.3%. Hits AC 18 84% of the time. 68.29% chance of Assassinate.
Or maybe you take the Alert Feat at level 10, the Dagger of Warning, and a Stone of Good Luck?
Initiative is likely +8 higher than almost anything you will fight, giving you 93.67% chance of hitting first, a +9 to hit AC 18 at 87.75%, and a total chance of Assassinate at 82.19%.
And this doesn’t even cover the fact that even when you’re NOT sneaking, you get auto-advantage against everyone you beat in the initiative.
So no - it’s not even close to only being usable 25% of the time, unless you’re not playing with Stealth or your DM is particularly harsh about allowing you to sneak up on enemies, which are DM problems not class problems.
Finally, consider the damage difference:
Any other Level 8 Rogue attacking with sneak attack at AC 18 and a +8 to hit (using a d6 for weapon damage), will hit 79.75% of the time (average 3.5+5+14 = 22.5 average), and 9.75% of the time will be a critical hit (an extra 17.5 average). The average damage here is 17.94 + 1.71 = 19.65 average damage.
An Assassin with the same stats and getting an auto-crit: 31.9 average damage. A 62% increase in damage output.
So yeah - while some classes get a ribbon ability that will add 3-8% damage per round, this feature is adding 62% damage in one round.
There is a valid reason it literally has more stopgaps than other Features.
EDIT:
And we haven’t even touched on the new Slasher/Piercer Feats that have special features when you crit.
A level 13 Assassin with a +10 to hit, Dagger of Warning, Stone of Good Luck, Alert and Piercer Feats, and a Rapier:
Will have a +8 advantage on initiatives and go first 93.67% of the time, will hit AC 18 87.75% of the time, and Assassinate 82.19% of the time.
The damage output will be 87.75%*(4.5+4.5+5+24.5+29) = 59.32 average damage.
The typical rogue at Level 13 with the same kit?
87.75%*(4.5+5+24.5) + 9.75% (4.5+29) = 29.84+3.27 = 33.11 average damage
Now it’s a 79% damage increase over a normal rogue attack.
Lots of white room assumptions here... Assuming magic items and creatures with more low perception and no mention of your party and how they affect the numbers.
The rules say "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
So, as soon as it is no longer "the start of the encounter" then the surprise no longer exists? ;-)
I always wondered why they didn't classify 'surprised' as a condition. It works just fine if you treat it like that.
Surprised - a creature that is surprised is incapacitated and can't move. The condition ends at the end of its first turn.
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Would have made things easier.
Overall the reliance on the murky rules for a feature is the reason I think it needs a second look and maybe some changes.
Incapacitated is a pretty powerful condition. Normally, the only way to get that is if they are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, or Unconscious. Given the forum were are in, I note that it doesn't say they cannot take Bonus Actions. It just says "actions" and everyone knows that's only one of the three kinds. If you're willing to allow anyone who has Surprise that level of power, that's ok, as long as you follow all the rules for the resulting other Condition.
<Insert clever signature here>
Surprise effectively is incapacitated until the end of your turn.
A lot of the rules are 'nested' within each other.
Incapacitated does not seem to indicate that you can't move, but it does prevent you from taking actions, reactions and bonus actions, as:
So I think, a 'surprised' condition, nesting incapacitated and preventing movement, is actually right in the style of the rest of the books ;)
Actually, incapacitated by itself is one of the lesser conditions. The conditions you mentioned, that include it, are much more powerful.
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I don't know. Incapacitated in and of itself is fairly powerful, but the point I was making about the other conditions that inflict it isn't so much the power of Incapacitated as much as how powerful the effects that inflict it are. Your talking about being able to inflict something on the level of turning them to stone, and always being able to do it first, no matter what Initiative is rolled. Is this an ability that gets a saving throw to resist the Incapacitated part?
<Insert clever signature here>
It's just a matter of wording. Incapacitated 'just' prevents you from taking actions and reactions, which is what being surprised does, too. On top of that, being surprised also doesn't let you move. So if you used a 'surprised' condition as I wrote it above, that condition would merely express what being surprised does in terms of a condition.
I always found it... awkward... trying to figure out how to handle or explain surprise, and stating it in the way of a condition makes it easier (for me).
Combat in D&D is very much relying on turns, and attaches timers to 'end of your turn' or 'beginning of your next turn' and such. Just for that reason, a 'surprise round', or acting outside of combat in a 'bonus round' does not work well with the mechanics.
If you used 'surprised' as a condition, especially as a token marker on the grid or VTT, a lot of the confusion can be avoided.
You just need to follow the recipe as you do for any other combat, and remove the 'surprised' condition at the end of the surprised creature's first turn.
Even the way it's worded in the Combat Step by Step chart, it sounds like surprised is supposed to be a condition.
In any way, this is how it makes it easier on me, if you can navigate it easier another way, keep doing that :)
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
I could be wrong but my gut is telling me there exist additional rules for attacking incapacitated creatures, that being incapacitated, specifically, is required to open up additional offensive actions in some situations. I can't recall any examples, so could be misremembering entirely. But, just a caution, if such a thing exists then calling the 'surprised' condition the 'incapacitated' condition would trigger those additional options too, which could lead to unforeseen interactions.
OH. No I do remember one interaction that would have HUGE implications:
I got quotes!
Good one! Excellent example of nesting rules...
The 'surprised' condition in that case should not include incapacitated, and it makes more sense now to not include it in being surprised.
It still works as a condition of its own:
Surprised - a creature that is surprised can't take actions or reactions, and can't move. The condition ends at the end of its first turn.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Where is that quote from, please?
N/M: found it. PHB, section on Concentration.
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
It be better yeah. An even better feature would be as follow;
Personally I'd keep the automatic critical on surprise; it's easier to build a Rogue for high Stealth (just pick it as an Expertise) than it is to build for high Initiative (requires a race and/or feat). While groups may not run surprise properly, if you're clear about what you're trying to use it for then it should still be possible to set it up when you can launch an ambush, or otherwise attack someone suddenly (e.g- stabbing a dignitary at a social function).
Advantage in the first round is already automatic sneak attack nearly every first round (unless obscured or whatever) so that's already a big boost, so it doesn't matter as much if the critical requires a bit of effort/working with the DM to setup. Plus enemy perception doesn't usually get that high except for certain boss creatures, which means a Rogue with Expertise can be impossible to spot with a decent roll (and Reliable Talent eventually makes it impossible to get a bad one).
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Assassinate is too situational and rarely benefit a rogue at its fullest, being frequently unusable due to either rolling lower initiative or failing to surprise enemies by your ou your party's fault.
Such version would always benefit you regardless of your initiative or your party fault.
I'm not disagreeing with changing it to always being advantage in the first round, I'm just saying that tying the critical to initiative is in some ways worse as you no longer have the option of setting it up for yourself, as RAW surprised enemies can still beat your initiative roll, so you'd no longer be getting criticals in situations that you can currently engineer the situation in your favour.
People may have trouble with surprise, but it is possible to set it up, and it's easier to build a Rogue to beat enemy perception than it is to build one to beat their initiative rolls. Tying the critical to initiative makes it more random, and means you have to go after targets that take their turn later than you, rather than aiming to hit the target you want, which isn't very assassin like.
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5e doesn't really consider a round to be where initiative rolls from lowest to highest. Rather, it calls the time it takes to get back to your turn a round.