5e doesn't really consider a round to be where initiative rolls from lowest to highest. Rather, it calls the time it takes to get back to your turn a round.
It does consider it in fact;
The Roder of Combat: A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a com bat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. O nce everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other
I know this is older but, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the assassin feature works til the end of the round the creature is surprised in, not just the end of their turn so the initiative doesn't screw you over in that sense. Seems a much simpler house rule than creating an entire different surprise mechanic? I like the surprise round of old as well, but both have their merits and flaws.
5e doesn't really consider a round to be where initiative rolls from lowest to highest. Rather, it calls the time it takes to get back to your turn a round.
Yeah it is both. It is from one #value of initiative back around to that same #value. Used without a starting reference number it means from highest to lowest, the whole round. Used with a reference, like you suggest, say something with an effect that lasts a round but starts on your turn, is a "round from your turn" means back again around to whatever your initiative is.
The problem you have is that the Raw and Sage advice on Surprise is so bad that technically it can not coexist.
Surprise works by you doing or acting stealthily in some way that the DM asks for a stealth role on the action and it goes against anyone's passive perception that is in threat by you.
An example is dropping a fireball on your party members, You roll stealth, you use sorcery points, and you sculpt the fireball to hit the PVP person in the group you hate only and save the rest. Your actions create an Initiative trigger, that trigger means everyone involved has to roll to see the order of who goes first. Based on the passive perception you know who is surprised and not surprised before the roll.
This problem now becomes a metagaming problem, because you know before the fireball is cast that it is coming. I use this example for one reason, If there is only two of us in this fight, only two of us roll initiative, if you roll higher on your initiative than I do, you are technically going before my attack is actually made.
You the player know I am attacking you, you the character does not until it is my turn. On that turn you are no longer surprised based on you going first in Inititiative combat you do not even know is happening. Even if you do not have an action, movement, or reaction, you lose surprise at the end of your turn making it so you can react to my fireball. The fireball that you were surprised by. technically I used sorcery point and Counterspell does not work this time, but if I did not use it, you could counter the attack you did not know was coming.
The only way to do Surprise is in a round special for surprise that only exists when there is a need. It happens before combat in initiative and surprise lasts the whole round and not after a turn. During this surprise round, you can stop the threat that triggered it if you can and stop the attack from happening. Based on Initiative that attack is happening on their turn, but only on their turn does it happen.
So in an ambush encounter, I tell the DM I am going to attack when I see the person come into view. If I am hiding, that attack becomes a surprise attack, that attack does not happen until we do the initiative and it is my turn. I do not get to act on my attack right away, that would be combat outside of initiative.
Sage Advice, Surprise rule, and Combat mechanics have it so that you can metagame surprise and have it dropped before it is even applied.
That isn't how surprise works. You don't declare your action outside of initiative, you declare you are starting combat, initiative and surprise etc are rolled, then on your turn you declare your action.
Something else that is also NOT how surprise works in 5e is you have to be hidden from the target. In this case, passing a note/messaging the DM that you are starting PVP so they can assist in your betrayal is the correct way to this.
Hiding is not the only use of a stealth check. You can be stealthy without hiding.
And while most of us on these forums are not robots (i think running bots here is probably against ToS), declaring your intent and having the DM decide the course of action is an essential element to the game which leads inexorably to the result of rolling initiative before anyone gets to act. If the first person to shout “I hit it” wins initiative, then the game would devolve into a race to do just that.
Roll stealth. If I fail, there's no surprise, combat starts. Otherwise:
Roll initiative. If I win, he is surprised and cannot use reactions. If I lose, he doesn't take an action on his turn but can take reactions. Assume he wins.
I attempt to fireball him. He can cast absorb elements, because the trigger qualifies, but cannot cast counterspell because that requires vision and I'm hidden.
The situation I don't like is partial surprise: the PCs are pretty sure something is coming, but not actually what, so it doesn't seem fair to give the other side the potential to have two full turns before the PCs do anything, but it does seem fair to let the surprising party go first. I'd be tempted by:
Partial Surprise: In situations where the target party is aware a threat exists but does not know where it is, or does not know when it will attack, partial surprise is possible. The character who initiates combat automatically wins initiative, all other characters roll initiative as normal. To accomplish partial surprise, combat must not have actually started, and the initiating character must succeed at stealth.
problem you have is your not surprised when my take goes off, my attack going off makes you surprised. So unless i go first breaking iniative rule, no surprise is happening.
The target is surprised if the attacker makes a stealth check. Subtle spell is not autosuccess on stealth, though it does make stealth possible.
You don't declare your action outside of initiative, you declare you are starting combat, initiative and surprise etc are rolled, then on your turn you declare your action.
This is wrong. "declaring actions outside combat" is how you play most of the game, actually. Until combat is started, by the DM, you just declare your intended actions and your DM determines the results. There is no way for a player to start combat. Only the DM can.
”The target is surprised if the attacker makes a stealth check. Subtle spell is not autosuccess on stealth, though it does make stealth possible.“
not according to raw if i do not go first in iniative. They stop being surprised at the end of their turn, before i can even surprise them. My fireball won’t go off until my turn in initiative.
They stop having the surprised status, but they still lose their turn in the first round of combat, which is what actually matters, unless you're taking an assassin multiclass (because assassin is poorly designed).
Roll stealth. If I fail, there's no surprise, combat starts. Otherwise:
Roll initiative. If I win, he is surprised and cannot use reactions. If I lose, he doesn't take an action on his turn but can take reactions. Assume he wins.
I attempt to fireball him. He can cast absorb elements, because the trigger qualifies, but cannot cast counterspell because that requires vision and I'm hidden.
The situation I don't like is partial surprise: the PCs are pretty sure something is coming, but not actually what, so it doesn't seem fair to give the other side the potential to have two full turns before the PCs do anything, but it does seem fair to let the surprising party go first. I'd be tempted by:
Partial Surprise: In situations where the target party is aware a threat exists but does not know where it is, or does not know when it will attack, partial surprise is possible. The character who initiates combat automatically wins initiative, all other characters roll initiative as normal. To accomplish partial surprise, combat must not have actually started, and the initiating character must succeed at stealth.
At my table, the creature/effect that makes the aggression that narratively speaking initiates a combat always goes first. Initiative is rolled as normal, but the initiator always goes first (ignoring his initiative roll that first round). It rewards those who takes the risk of hitting first, which can be both good or bad depending on why "the boy in the woods continues to notch an arrow despite you calling out to him".
The narrative of "I draw my bowstring and shoot an arrow at the boy without hesitation" really loses meaning if that triggering action doesn't actually happen first (or at all) in combat imo.
This is of course a homebrew solution to the rules disconnect some of us feel exists in this area. The actual rules don't care about which individual actually initiates combat, only as far as determining surprise is concerned.
Surprise rules are fine for most situations. Sure there might be odd situation where some people think it make less sense but the fundamental principle is that you aren't supposed to act before initiative in combat, surprise is usually always achieved by hiding and when a foe is surprised, it is only until after its first turn. So a surprised foe will never act before its ambusher, but may be able to react to it if quick enought ans that is fine by me.
Roll stealth. If I fail, there's no surprise, combat starts. Otherwise:
ambush. Declare an attack to trigger combat determine surprised
Roll initiative. If I win, he is surprised and cannot use reactions. If I lose, he doesn't take an action on his turn but can take reactions. Assume he wins.
I attempt to fireball him. He can cast absorb elements, because the trigger qualifies, but cannot cast counterspell because that requires vision and I'm hidden.
Under most DMs casting any spell with a V component will break being hidden before you even get to the step where the spell resolves, because you had to start making noise before it went off.
Roll stealth. If I fail, there's no surprise, combat starts. Otherwise:
ambush. Declare an attack to trigger combat determine surprised
Roll initiative. If I win, he is surprised and cannot use reactions. If I lose, he doesn't take an action on his turn but can take reactions. Assume he wins.
I attempt to fireball him. He can cast absorb elements, because the trigger qualifies, but cannot cast counterspell because that requires vision and I'm hidden.
Under most DMs casting any spell with a V component will break being hidden before you even get to the step where the spell resolves, because you had to start making noise before it went off.
Surprise round has to apply the threat that started the ambush, non surprised people can have a turn, that is the key thing, have a turn, intative is rolled to determine order of combat. You are an enemy who is not surprised, you can say its because you notice something before the Ambush. You do not see where they are until they are revealed.
not all surprise happens or triggers by entering a space.
In 5E there is no such thing as surprise round , in round 1 every creatures take turn wether surprised or not.
Of course surprise only happen during 1st round of combat; Initiative determine everyone's turn order and before that there's no surprise, nor after you take your 1st turn.
DMs that have concerns with initiative order vs instigator to me are better off giving the instigator a +100 initiative to ensure it act first rather than to let any action take place before round 1, otherwise the instigator act twice during the time others are only once.
“In 5E there is no such thing as surprise round , in round 1 every creatures take turn wether surprised or not.“
that is why the ruling has to be fixed, people claim there is no surprise round without understand there is no surprise when there is no threat. Basically taking away actions and movement because you are applying something outside of initiative that does not happen until the persons first active turn in initiative.
technically until you act the threat, i am not surprised. So saying something does not happen or it does not matter, we do whatever we want anyway. Does not help those bound to raw rules.
You're applying ideas not present in the rules into them, which is fine for a feature request, but not really describing how the game actually should be run.
The surprise rules work for what they're intended for: the change of mode from non-combat to combat. We start taking turns when combat starts, and that starts before anyone takes any combative actions. It works, you just don't seem to like it. That is a difference of opinion.
You are not punished by not being allowed to take an action before initiative, its decorum. If the DM doesn't enforce this, it quickly become chaotic where everyone try to act before combat start. Initiative determine turn order for this no need to try to jump the gun.
"You're applying ideas not present in the rules into them, which is fine for a feature request, but not really describing how the game actually should be run.
The surprise rules work for what they're intended for: the change of mode from non-combat to combat. We start taking turns when combat starts, and that starts before anyone takes any combative actions. It works, you just don't seem to like it. That is a difference of opinion."
You claim surprise works because you do it wrong and no one forces you to do it correctly.
What do you mean correctly? Do you mean following the rules? I can do that well enough.
The action you claim to start the threat and initiative does not happen until combat starts. Why should i be punished by surprised before i am surprised, also why should i be punished by no surprise because i roll low initiative.
The declaration happens, then combat begins, which follows the rules in the order of combat. If a player wants to stealthily attack a creature, they say that. That starts combat. There's no logical problem here, because it is a game that has an order of operations that tells you exactly that should occur that way.
surprise drops, no crital attack can be made. If surprise is placed before a threat happens and drops again after my turn ends, not the round. It makes the whole thing pointless.
I'm not sure what you are saying here, I think due to a language barrier.
surprise round means a threat happens to valid the surprise and if no one actions the ambush, you are just hiding.
Are you just trying to argue that Assassinate isn't good enough? Yes, for Assassinate to be worthwhile, you do have to win initiative.
What you have is surprise dropping after their turn and giving them the ability to react on other people's turn. You might think that reactions are not as important. But they are counterspell, shield, and attack of opportunity, fighters use reactions to block attacks and redirect them.
Whether or not reactions are important, there is nothing weird about "sorry, you weren't fast enough and he still managed to get shield off".
what is he reacting to, the threat is unforeseen, the first attack action made is not even known until after it hits.
That has nothing to do with the surprise rules. That has to do with how reaction triggers work: they frequently allow you to react to things you shouldn't be aware of. It is no less reasonable to cast shield in response to unforseen start of combat than it is to cast it in response to being attacked by an invisible, hidden foe, which RAW also permits.
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It does consider it in fact;
Yeah it is both. It is from one #value of initiative back around to that same #value. Used without a starting reference number it means from highest to lowest, the whole round. Used with a reference, like you suggest, say something with an effect that lasts a round but starts on your turn, is a "round from your turn" means back again around to whatever your initiative is.
I got quotes!
That isn't how surprise works. You don't declare your action outside of initiative, you declare you are starting combat, initiative and surprise etc are rolled, then on your turn you declare your action.
Something else that is also NOT how surprise works in 5e is you have to be hidden from the target. In this case, passing a note/messaging the DM that you are starting PVP so they can assist in your betrayal is the correct way to this.
Hiding is not the only use of a stealth check. You can be stealthy without hiding.
And while most of us on these forums are not robots (i think running bots here is probably against ToS), declaring your intent and having the DM decide the course of action is an essential element to the game which leads inexorably to the result of rolling initiative before anyone gets to act. If the first person to shout “I hit it” wins initiative, then the game would devolve into a race to do just that.
In the PvP example, the way it works is:
The situation I don't like is partial surprise: the PCs are pretty sure something is coming, but not actually what, so it doesn't seem fair to give the other side the potential to have two full turns before the PCs do anything, but it does seem fair to let the surprising party go first. I'd be tempted by:
Partial Surprise: In situations where the target party is aware a threat exists but does not know where it is, or does not know when it will attack, partial surprise is possible. The character who initiates combat automatically wins initiative, all other characters roll initiative as normal. To accomplish partial surprise, combat must not have actually started, and the initiating character must succeed at stealth.
The target is surprised if the attacker makes a stealth check. Subtle spell is not autosuccess on stealth, though it does make stealth possible.
This is wrong. "declaring actions outside combat" is how you play most of the game, actually. Until combat is started, by the DM, you just declare your intended actions and your DM determines the results. There is no way for a player to start combat. Only the DM can.
I got quotes!
They stop having the surprised status, but they still lose their turn in the first round of combat, which is what actually matters, unless you're taking an assassin multiclass (because assassin is poorly designed).
At my table, the creature/effect that makes the aggression that narratively speaking initiates a combat always goes first. Initiative is rolled as normal, but the initiator always goes first (ignoring his initiative roll that first round). It rewards those who takes the risk of hitting first, which can be both good or bad depending on why "the boy in the woods continues to notch an arrow despite you calling out to him".
The narrative of "I draw my bowstring and shoot an arrow at the boy without hesitation" really loses meaning if that triggering action doesn't actually happen first (or at all) in combat imo.
This is of course a homebrew solution to the rules disconnect some of us feel exists in this area. The actual rules don't care about which individual actually initiates combat, only as far as determining surprise is concerned.
Surprise rules are fine for most situations. Sure there might be odd situation where some people think it make less sense but the fundamental principle is that you aren't supposed to act before initiative in combat, surprise is usually always achieved by hiding and when a foe is surprised, it is only until after its first turn. So a surprised foe will never act before its ambusher, but may be able to react to it if quick enought ans that is fine by me.
Under most DMs casting any spell with a V component will break being hidden before you even get to the step where the spell resolves, because you had to start making noise before it went off.
There was a discussion of subtle spell.
In 5E there is no such thing as surprise round , in round 1 every creatures take turn wether surprised or not.
Of course surprise only happen during 1st round of combat; Initiative determine everyone's turn order and before that there's no surprise, nor after you take your 1st turn.
DMs that have concerns with initiative order vs instigator to me are better off giving the instigator a +100 initiative to ensure it act first rather than to let any action take place before round 1, otherwise the instigator act twice during the time others are only once.
You're applying ideas not present in the rules into them, which is fine for a feature request, but not really describing how the game actually should be run.
The surprise rules work for what they're intended for: the change of mode from non-combat to combat. We start taking turns when combat starts, and that starts before anyone takes any combative actions. It works, you just don't seem to like it. That is a difference of opinion.
You are not punished by not being allowed to take an action before initiative, its decorum. If the DM doesn't enforce this, it quickly become chaotic where everyone try to act before combat start. Initiative determine turn order for this no need to try to jump the gun.
What do you mean correctly? Do you mean following the rules? I can do that well enough.
The declaration happens, then combat begins, which follows the rules in the order of combat. If a player wants to stealthily attack a creature, they say that. That starts combat. There's no logical problem here, because it is a game that has an order of operations that tells you exactly that should occur that way.
I'm not sure what you are saying here, I think due to a language barrier.
Are you just trying to argue that Assassinate isn't good enough? Yes, for Assassinate to be worthwhile, you do have to win initiative.
Whether or not reactions are important, there is nothing weird about "sorry, you weren't fast enough and he still managed to get shield off".
That has nothing to do with the surprise rules. That has to do with how reaction triggers work: they frequently allow you to react to things you shouldn't be aware of. It is no less reasonable to cast shield in response to unforseen start of combat than it is to cast it in response to being attacked by an invisible, hidden foe, which RAW also permits.