If there is an effect on you that reduces your movement to 0, you can still teleport somewhere, barring other effects that might prevent you from casting the spell. This is why I say that teleportation is not movement in D&D. Colloquially, you may choose to call it movement for simplicity's sake, but in terms of how the rules define movement and how aspects of the game treat movement, teleportation is not movement.
But I'm pretty sure we all already knew that ;)
Again, you can't use teleportation to circumvent glyph of warding's ban on being moved - teleporting something moves that something, for all rules that care about it being moved. What's colloquial is not calling it movement because usually it does not consume speed (things don't reduce your movement to 0, they reduce your speed to 0), although a teleportation effect could consume speed. Likewise, if you had some way to walk without consuming speed, it would still be movement - consuming speed isn't required of movement, it's just that most movement consumes speed. As an example (of many) of voluntary movement without consuming speed, cast Telekinesis on yourself and use the spell to move yourself.
The glyph of warding example also suggests teleporting would trigger the additional booming blade damage. Spells that have a "don't move from this spot or else X" seem to consider teleporting moving away from the spot.
The difference between the two is that Booming Blade's triggering condition is for 5 feet of movement to be spent, whereas Glyph of Warding's condition is simply being moved (no X feet of movement needing to be spent). Teleportation doesn't require you to spend X feet of movement to move the distance the spell allows.
So, if "willingly moves" refers to using normal movement speed, then teleporting wouldn't trigger the additional damage. Simple enough.
Except, there's an SAC ruling that states getting up from being prone does not trigger the additional damage. Getting up from being prone does take some of your movement speed. Which suggests it's not the person moving around that triggers the damage, but the person shifting their position on the battlefield -- in which case, teleporting would absolutely trigger it.
If it was just shifting on the battlefield, forced movement would trigger it. We know it doesn't, so we know it isn't just shifting their position on the battlefield.
Something that teleports has moved; for example, you can't use teleportation to transport a glyph of warding without breaking it. Whatever space it moves to, it enters, and whatever space it moves from, it exits.
Curiously, for teleportation and similar magics we actually use the words: Vanish and Appear. Not moves. Not enters. Not leaves. Not exits... We use: Vanish. Appear.
The game doesn't...I checked.
I meant in regards to "vanish", and I cited the one time they are used in the same spell below
Oh it doesn't?
"Vanish" shows up in only a few occurences, mostly involving interplanar travel (and once in Steel Wind Strike, which is the only spell that says vanish and allows a teleport, though they don't explicitly connect the two. "Appear" does get used, but not universally. In game, the game uses "teleport" and "transport" to describe the effect just as much, often without any elaboration, as does the standard definition of "teleport":
Oh it does? Make up your mind
How does your response refute the actual argument being made here?
"transport or be transported across space and distance instantly." (Source: Google)
transport, btw, is defined using the same criteria as "take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship." which gives further credence to teleportation as a means of moving much like a ship, per analogies previously stated in this thread.
Transport. Appear. Vanish. Yeah yeah. You know what words you're not finding at ALL?
Moved. Movement. Speed.
Curiously absent entirely. Weird. One might even come to the conclusion that teleportation isn't movement.
(You're not actually arguing teleportation creates a boat, are you?)
Nope, I'm not, I'm saying the boat analogy that another poster used on the first page has merit. If you honest think I'm saying teleportation creates a boat, please reread, you obviously missed something. Also, I'm not saying teleportation is "movement", just the opposite in fact, but it does make you enter a space because it does make you move (which is where we disagreed in the other thread). See my other posts for how I differentiate "move" and "movement"
While you might assume it moves you, effects that move you say that they move you. Spell effects do precisely what their spell entry says they do, not what we imagine they say they do. These types of spells say: Appear.
to the bolded: Not as a universal rule. misty step doesn't, nor do the rest of the "step" family of spells.
Well, yeah, they say "teleport" and Teleport says: Appear.
What you're missing, as is the important bit...is that none of these spells say: Move. They specifically and intentionally are described in such a way as to avoid that word like the plague. Why? Why would they do that. Why write Transport? Why write appear?
Why not just say move?
Really ask yourself why.
the game does not expect you to reference another spell to understand how this one works, at all, so just stop with that tactic. They expect you to use common english.
They are worded very similarly to conjuration/summoning and even some illusions. You appear in the location. "Appearing" isn't a movement linked verb anywhere in the books. It just means: "To become visible" or "To manifest".
but we don't usually assign damage and saves to illusions, so they are moot as it pertains to AoEs, and i would rule that if you conjured a creature into an area of effect, it would make any saves and take any damage associated with that AoE just as if it had moved itself into the AoE, or been moved by something else
We.. don't assign saves.. to illusions? Uh...
A created illusion does not have to make saving throws if it is created in an AoE, which is what I meant (again, you might want to reread if you got a different intent to my words.
The difference between the two is that Booming Blade's triggering condition is for 5 feet of movement to be spent
The spell says nothing about movement being "spent"
.
If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then
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How does your response refute the actual argument being made here?
I assume this was a rhetorical question.
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If there is an effect on you that reduces your movement to 0, you can still teleport somewhere, barring other effects that might prevent you from casting the spell. This is why I say that teleportation is not movement in D&D. Colloquially, you may choose to call it movement for simplicity's sake, but in terms of how the rules define movement and how aspects of the game treat movement, teleportation is not movement.
But I'm pretty sure we all already knew that ;)
Again, you can't use teleportation to circumvent glyph of warding's ban on being moved - teleporting something moves that something, for all rules that care about it being moved. What's colloquial is not calling it movement because usually it does not consume speed (things don't reduce your movement to 0, they reduce your speed to 0), although a teleportation effect could consume speed. Likewise, if you had some way to walk without consuming speed, it would still be movement - consuming speed isn't required of movement, it's just that most movement consumes speed. As an example (of many) of voluntary movement without consuming speed, cast Telekinesis on yourself and use the spell to move yourself.
The glyph of warding example also suggests teleporting would trigger the additional booming blade damage. Spells that have a "don't move from this spot or else X" seem to consider teleporting moving away from the spot.
Yes, indeed. If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet, you trigger booming blade.
In terms of entering an area (or area of effect), I would rule teleportation would qualify (it moves you into the area, therefore you have entered it). In terms of triggering effects that trigger on movement (like booming blade) I would rule it does not qualify to trigger the effect (you are not necessarily moving or using movement resources).
Before the usual suspect tries to make themselves the star of this thread the way they did That Other One, I think the booming blade question should probably get a better look.
I can genuinely see both sides of it. The specific text:
On a hit, the target suffers the weapon attack’s normal effects and then becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn. If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then, the target takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
So, if "willingly moves" refers to using normal movement speed, then teleporting wouldn't trigger the additional damage. Simple enough.
Except, there's an SAC ruling that states getting up from being prone does not trigger the additional damage. Getting up from being prone does take some of your movement speed. Which suggests it's not the person moving around that triggers the damage, but the person shifting their position on the battlefield -- in which case, teleporting would absolutely trigger it.
So, for my response, assume that the "movement" I'm referring to only refers to actual changes in position on the grid, since that is what BB cares about...Now:
"movement" is (at least to me) a change in position in space due to the motion of your own body/form. "speed" is a representation of how much "movement" you can make during a turn; basically "potential movement". "speed" is not movement by itself unless it is used to make "movement". Standing up takes half your "speed", but that "speed" is not used to make movement (a change of position), it is used to stand up (so, 0 "movement").
"Moving" is change of position. All "movement" is moving, but not vice versa, because you can move using means that don't require motion of your own body/form (teleportation/being in a vehicle/being pulled by thorn whip). I'd say that for moving to be truly willing, it would have to be 1) "movement" (made by your body) and 2) "willing" (made by your choice). Teleportation would not meet the requirement for #1, while moving under something like compulsion would not meet the requirement for #2
If there is an effect on you that reduces your movement to 0, you can still teleport somewhere, barring other effects that might prevent you from casting the spell. This is why I say that teleportation is not movement in D&D. Colloquially, you may choose to call it movement for simplicity's sake, but in terms of how the rules define movement and how aspects of the game treat movement, teleportation is not movement.
But I'm pretty sure we all already knew that ;)
Again, you can't use teleportation to circumvent glyph of warding's ban on being moved - teleporting something moves that something, for all rules that care about it being moved. What's colloquial is not calling it movement because usually it does not consume speed (things don't reduce your movement to 0, they reduce your speed to 0), although a teleportation effect could consume speed. Likewise, if you had some way to walk without consuming speed, it would still be movement - consuming speed isn't required of movement, it's just that most movement consumes speed. As an example (of many) of voluntary movement without consuming speed, cast Telekinesis on yourself and use the spell to move yourself.
The glyph of warding example also suggests teleporting would trigger the additional booming blade damage. Spells that have a "don't move from this spot or else X" seem to consider teleporting moving away from the spot.
Yes, indeed. If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet, you trigger booming blade.
How does that work though? you might not have to move at all physically to teleport, so why would the energy be released?
How does that work though? you might not have to move at all physically to teleport, so why would the energy be released?
I mean, if we're straying from pure rules discussion into "why", the energy could be tied to you, not that specific point in space where you were hit by the spell. Teleporting doesn't get you away from it; you take it with you, and it goes off. Something like an arcane motion sensor.
Like I said though, I can genuinely see both sides of it, both rules-wise and "why"-wise.
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Something that teleports has moved; for example, you can't use teleportation to transport a glyph of warding without breaking it. Whatever space it moves to, it enters, and whatever space it moves from, it exits.
Curiously, for teleportation and similar magics we actually use the words: Vanish and Appear. Not moves. Not enters. Not leaves. Not exits... We use: Vanish. Appear.
The game doesn't...I checked.
I meant in regards to "vanish", and I cited the one time they are used in the same spell below
Oh it doesn't?
"Vanish" shows up in only a few occurences, mostly involving interplanar travel (and once in Steel Wind Strike, which is the only spell that says vanish and allows a teleport, though they don't explicitly connect the two. "Appear" does get used, but not universally. In game, the game uses "teleport" and "transport" to describe the effect just as much, often without any elaboration, as does the standard definition of "teleport":
Oh it does? Make up your mind
How does your response refute the actual argument being made here?
You have no showed that any of these effects use the word "move".
You call it move, you claim it is move, but your own review of all of the effects is absent the word "move".
They use "appear" they use "vanish" and yes they use "transport". But they never describe it as a move.
You claim it is a move, while it never even one says that it is.
"transport or be transported across space and distance instantly." (Source: Google)
transport, btw, is defined using the same criteria as "take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship." which gives further credence to teleportation as a means of moving much like a ship, per analogies previously stated in this thread.
Transport. Appear. Vanish. Yeah yeah. You know what words you're not finding at ALL?
Moved. Movement. Speed.
Curiously absent entirely. Weird. One might even come to the conclusion that teleportation isn't movement.
(You're not actually arguing teleportation creates a boat, are you?)
Nope, I'm not, I'm saying the boat analogy that another poster used on the first page has merit. If you honest think I'm saying teleportation creates a boat, please reread, you obviously missed something. Also, I'm not saying teleportation is "movement", just the opposite in fact, but it does make you enter a space because it does make you move (which is where we disagreed in the other thread). See my other posts for how I differentiate "move" and "movement"
(It was in parenthesis because it was a casual aside) The more serious response is: Your definition is incompatible with the actual effects of teleportation in the game so you should know you have made an error.
If you genuinely believe the definition "take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship." is what happens when people teleport in 5e, you've made an error.
While you might assume it moves you, effects that move you say that they move you. Spell effects do precisely what their spell entry says they do, not what we imagine they say they do. These types of spells say: Appear.
to the bolded: Not as a universal rule. misty step doesn't, nor do the rest of the "step" family of spells.
Well, yeah, they say "teleport" and Teleport says: Appear.
What you're missing, as is the important bit...is that none of these spells say: Move. They specifically and intentionally are described in such a way as to avoid that word like the plague. Why? Why would they do that. Why write Transport? Why write appear?
Why not just say move?
Really ask yourself why.
the game does not expect you to reference another spell to understand how this one works, at all, so just stop with that tactic. They expect you to use common english.
I fully expect the game to have established terms specific to the rules and the mechanics of how it functions as a game. Eg. I can attack my enemies by casting fireball at them, but that doesn't mean fireball is an attack, not in 5e terms.
They are worded very similarly to conjuration/summoning and even some illusions. You appear in the location. "Appearing" isn't a movement linked verb anywhere in the books. It just means: "To become visible" or "To manifest".
but we don't usually assign damage and saves to illusions, so they are moot as it pertains to AoEs, and i would rule that if you conjured a creature into an area of effect, it would make any saves and take any damage associated with that AoE just as if it had moved itself into the AoE, or been moved by something else
We.. don't assign saves.. to illusions? Uh...
A created illusion does not have to make saving throws if it is created in an AoE, which is what I meant (again, you might want to reread if you got a different intent to my words.
Yeah I've got no idea what this tangent is even on about but I am reasonably sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that "appear" is the same language used for effects that cause things to: come into existence. Not: To move around. You say you'd personally rule they're the same but that sounds an awful lot like sharing what your homebrew is? Which, is fine of course. But, homebrew ruling aren't compelling arguments about what the RAW is.
Yes, indeed. If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet, you trigger booming blade.
This is a quick reminder that:
None of us are obliged to indulge a pedant in complicating a simple concept.
None of us are obliged to respond and elaborate when someone takes something we say in the least charitable way possible.
And, to contribute, the quoted statement is objectively inaccurate. We all know it, and I shall not elaborate further on the subject.
Umm. Did you maybe quote the wrong thing by accident?
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The rules (context) definitely and in black and white call teleportation entering an area, whether it is movement or not. Beyond what DxJxC said pages ago, I don’t know what there is to go on. Teleportation doesn’t use your defined movement modes or use up your speed but does cause you to change position.
Is there anything in the game that cares how a creature got to a place that doesn’t tell you that it cares how that creature got there?
Yes, indeed. If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet, you trigger booming blade.
This is a quick reminder that:
None of us are obliged to indulge a pedant in complicating a simple concept.
None of us are obliged to respond and elaborate when someone takes something we say in the least charitable way possible.
And, to contribute, the quoted statement is objectively inaccurate. We all know it, and I shall not elaborate further on the subject.
Umm. Did you maybe quote the wrong thing by accident?
Naw, Quin misquoted the spell effect. His comment is objectively inaccurate.
He very literally plugged "teleport" in the place of "moves". And is then arguing from the perspective that this is what the spell text says. It doesn't.
The entire thread is discussing that very question. Generally, when you resort to this sort of thing, you've lost the argument.
It's already been touched upon, so I'm just adding support for the following interpretation:
(Big M) "Movement" is the process of successively occupying adjacent spaces in a continuous manner.
(Little m) "movement" is simply translocating from one occupied space to a new occupied space.
Things that trigger based off of movement, like Attacks of Opportunity, require Big M "Movement".
The vague justification for this can be that "Movement" telegraphs a character's actions and provides a means for another to anticipate and react, and otherwise requires that a character pass through a static boundary. Teleportation accounts for neither.
In the case of Booming Blade, a target can safely Misty Step away, but will bring the thunderous effect with them, which continues to prevent any movement.
Sage Advice has added a couple of relevant entries on this topic. It seems that the designers expect you to use natural language English to adjudicate these: Entering an area is anything that causes you to go from being outside of that area to inside of it and moving (that isn't specifically using your speed) is anything that changes your position.
The rules (context) definitely and in black and white call teleportation entering an area, whether it is movement or not. Beyond what DxJxC said pages ago, I don’t know what there is to go on. Teleportation doesn’t use your defined movement modes or use up your speed but does cause you to change position.
Is there anything in the game that cares how a creature got to a place that doesn’t tell you that it cares how that creature got there?
What you're doing is called an Inference. Claiming your inference is "definitely and in black and white call teleportation entering an area" is wrong. It is not black and white, nor does that string of words actually appear in this spell. Now, I'm not saying inferences are bad, or even not suitable points to make in an argument. But claiming they're concrete or are somehow trying to make them out as a literal quote of a text is not being straightforward.
I think it is curious though, that the two instances where the rules get sorta close to discussing teleportation as either moving or entering are both with spell effects that mess with people's will. This one "The creature can’t willingly enter the cylinder by nonmagical means." and Compelled duel's "On a failed save, the creature is drawn to you, compelled by your divine demand." and " and must make a Wisdom saving throw each time it attempts to move to a space that is more than 30 feet away from you".
I suspect that these are a strange collision of the game terms vs design intent. These spells are intended to keep things from being somewhere the caster doesn't want, and they specifically accomplish this with compulsion. Either kept out, as with magic circle, or drawn to, as with compelled duel. In either case, teleportation is not intended to entirely or freely bypass this compulsion. Because it is their free will that has been thwarted not their actual locomotion. Thus, the very intent to be inside the circle isn't possible unless by saving against the spell... and you can't target a teleport inside it if you can't will yourself to want to be in it.
The difference between the two is that Booming Blade's triggering condition is for 5 feet of movement to be spent, whereas Glyph of Warding's condition is simply being moved (no X feet of movement needing to be spent). Teleportation doesn't require you to spend X feet of movement to move the distance the spell allows.
If it was just shifting on the battlefield, forced movement would trigger it. We know it doesn't, so we know it isn't just shifting their position on the battlefield.
I got quotes!
I meant in regards to "vanish", and I cited the one time they are used in the same spell below
How does your response refute the actual argument being made here?
Nope, I'm not, I'm saying the boat analogy that another poster used on the first page has merit. If you honest think I'm saying teleportation creates a boat, please reread, you obviously missed something. Also, I'm not saying teleportation is "movement", just the opposite in fact, but it does make you enter a space because it does make you move (which is where we disagreed in the other thread). See my other posts for how I differentiate "move" and "movement"
the game does not expect you to reference another spell to understand how this one works, at all, so just stop with that tactic. They expect you to use common english.
A created illusion does not have to make saving throws if it is created in an AoE, which is what I meant (again, you might want to reread if you got a different intent to my words.
The spell says nothing about movement being "spent"
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I assume this was a rhetorical question.
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Yes, indeed. If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet, you trigger booming blade.
So, for my response, assume that the "movement" I'm referring to only refers to actual changes in position on the grid, since that is what BB cares about...Now:
"movement" is (at least to me) a change in position in space due to the motion of your own body/form. "speed" is a representation of how much "movement" you can make during a turn; basically "potential movement". "speed" is not movement by itself unless it is used to make "movement". Standing up takes half your "speed", but that "speed" is not used to make movement (a change of position), it is used to stand up (so, 0 "movement").
"Moving" is change of position. All "movement" is moving, but not vice versa, because you can move using means that don't require motion of your own body/form (teleportation/being in a vehicle/being pulled by thorn whip). I'd say that for moving to be truly willing, it would have to be 1) "movement" (made by your body) and 2) "willing" (made by your choice). Teleportation would not meet the requirement for #1, while moving under something like compulsion would not meet the requirement for #2
How does that work though? you might not have to move at all physically to teleport, so why would the energy be released?
Yes...they are so focused in attacking individual words they forgot to actually address the argument.
The energy is released because the spell says so.
I mean, if we're straying from pure rules discussion into "why", the energy could be tied to you, not that specific point in space where you were hit by the spell. Teleporting doesn't get you away from it; you take it with you, and it goes off. Something like an arcane motion sensor.
Like I said though, I can genuinely see both sides of it, both rules-wise and "why"-wise.
Active characters:
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Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You have no showed that any of these effects use the word "move".
You call it move, you claim it is move, but your own review of all of the effects is absent the word "move".
They use "appear" they use "vanish" and yes they use "transport". But they never describe it as a move.
You claim it is a move, while it never even one says that it is.
(It was in parenthesis because it was a casual aside) The more serious response is: Your definition is incompatible with the actual effects of teleportation in the game so you should know you have made an error.
If you genuinely believe the definition "take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship." is what happens when people teleport in 5e, you've made an error.
I fully expect the game to have established terms specific to the rules and the mechanics of how it functions as a game. Eg. I can attack my enemies by casting fireball at them, but that doesn't mean fireball is an attack, not in 5e terms.
Yeah I've got no idea what this tangent is even on about but I am reasonably sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that "appear" is the same language used for effects that cause things to: come into existence. Not: To move around. You say you'd personally rule they're the same but that sounds an awful lot like sharing what your homebrew is? Which, is fine of course. But, homebrew ruling aren't compelling arguments about what the RAW is.
I got quotes!
Umm. Did you maybe quote the wrong thing by accident?
Active characters:
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Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The rules (context) definitely and in black and white call teleportation entering an area, whether it is movement or not. Beyond what DxJxC said pages ago, I don’t know what there is to go on. Teleportation doesn’t use your defined movement modes or use up your speed but does cause you to change position.
Is there anything in the game that cares how a creature got to a place that doesn’t tell you that it cares how that creature got there?
Naw, Quin misquoted the spell effect. His comment is objectively inaccurate.
He very literally plugged "teleport" in the place of "moves". And is then arguing from the perspective that this is what the spell text says. It doesn't.
The entire thread is discussing that very question. Generally, when you resort to this sort of thing, you've lost the argument.
I got quotes!
Yeah. I meant what I said. I just didn't intend to address it to quindraco.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It's already been touched upon, so I'm just adding support for the following interpretation:
(Big M) "Movement" is the process of successively occupying adjacent spaces in a continuous manner.
(Little m) "movement" is simply translocating from one occupied space to a new occupied space.
Things that trigger based off of movement, like Attacks of Opportunity, require Big M "Movement".
The vague justification for this can be that "Movement" telegraphs a character's actions and provides a means for another to anticipate and react, and otherwise requires that a character pass through a static boundary. Teleportation accounts for neither.
In the case of Booming Blade, a target can safely Misty Step away, but will bring the thunderous effect with them, which continues to prevent any movement.
edit: "Entering an area" is little m "movement".
Sage Advice has added a couple of relevant entries on this topic. It seems that the designers expect you to use natural language English to adjudicate these: Entering an area is anything that causes you to go from being outside of that area to inside of it and moving (that isn't specifically using your speed) is anything that changes your position.
What you're doing is called an Inference. Claiming your inference is "definitely and in black and white call teleportation entering an area" is wrong. It is not black and white, nor does that string of words actually appear in this spell. Now, I'm not saying inferences are bad, or even not suitable points to make in an argument. But claiming they're concrete or are somehow trying to make them out as a literal quote of a text is not being straightforward.
I think it is curious though, that the two instances where the rules get sorta close to discussing teleportation as either moving or entering are both with spell effects that mess with people's will. This one "The creature can’t willingly enter the cylinder by nonmagical means." and Compelled duel's "On a failed save, the creature is drawn to you, compelled by your divine demand." and " and must make a Wisdom saving throw each time it attempts to move to a space that is more than 30 feet away from you".
I suspect that these are a strange collision of the game terms vs design intent. These spells are intended to keep things from being somewhere the caster doesn't want, and they specifically accomplish this with compulsion. Either kept out, as with magic circle, or drawn to, as with compelled duel. In either case, teleportation is not intended to entirely or freely bypass this compulsion. Because it is their free will that has been thwarted not their actual locomotion. Thus, the very intent to be inside the circle isn't possible unless by saving against the spell... and you can't target a teleport inside it if you can't will yourself to want to be in it.
I got quotes!
The only inference in my argument is that the "to do so" in the second sentence of a paragraph refers to the action described in the first.