I used to think that the combination of Hand Crossbow and Crossbow Expert was nearly unusable, because a Hand Crossbow has the Ammunition property and thus cannot be used if you're dual wielding it with a different one-handed weapon.
However, I realize that Crossbow Expert does not require dual wielding, because the trigger condition for the bonus action attack (you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon) never says that the one-handed weapon can't be the same hand crossbow you're going to use for the bonus action attack.
I'm pretty sure the actual intent was the 'sword and crossbow' character.
I agree, the intent seems to have been for you to use a melee weapon and a crossbow. This would mean only getting a single shot in most combats, stowing the melee weapon and reloading if the enemy moved to range. The community uses it almost exclusively for single hand crossbow builds though.
I'm pretty sure the actual intent was the 'sword and crossbow' character.
Maybe, but it seems like a pretty awkward setup. The character would have to stow their sword every turn to reload the crossbow, then re-draw their sword.
I'm pretty sure the actual intent was the 'sword and crossbow' character.
Maybe, but it seems like a pretty awkward setup. The character would have to stow their sword every turn to reload the crossbow, then re-draw their sword.
Unless the character is an Artificer (or has one in the party) who makes a hand crossbow with the Repeating Shot Infusion. Note that the Crossbow Expert Feat also addresses this specifically with "
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient."
I'm pretty sure the actual intent was the 'sword and crossbow' character.
Maybe, but it seems like a pretty awkward setup. The character would have to stow their sword every turn to reload the crossbow, then re-draw their sword.
Unless the character is an Artificer (or has one in the party) who makes a hand crossbow with the Repeating Shot Infusion. Note that the Crossbow Expert Feat also addresses this specifically with "
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient."
That’s not a product of the loading property, it’s a product of the ammunition property. The Artificers’ repeating crossbow gets around it for you, but with crossbow expert alone, the character still needs the other hand free to put the ammunition in.
There is this sage advice from 2014 saying that attacking twice with hand crossbow is intended. I can't find any indication that it was meant to be used with a weapon in the other hand.
I wouldn't read too much into that, he's just saying it works RAW. I'd be surprised if the repeating hand crossbow thing was anything but an accident.
I'm pretty sure the actual intent was the 'sword and crossbow' character.
Maybe, but it seems like a pretty awkward setup. The character would have to stow their sword every turn to reload the crossbow, then re-draw their sword.
Unless the character is an Artificer (or has one in the party) who makes a hand crossbow with the Repeating Shot Infusion. Note that the Crossbow Expert Feat also addresses this specifically with "
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient."
That’s not a product of the loading property, it’s a product of the ammunition property. The Artificers’ repeating crossbow gets around it for you, but with crossbow expert alone, the character still needs the other hand free to put the ammunition in.
Considering that in former editions a repeating hand crossbow was a common weapon, and sword+crossbow was a common play style, and is common in popular fiction… I think it is letting WotC off the hook to pretend that the feat wasn’t clearly written with that in mind. If it was a feat to take a bonus shot with a hand crossbow when you attack with a hand crossbow alone… (1) why was that even a feat idea? and (2) why use vague “one handed weapon” language instead of simpler consolidated references to the crossbow? Bonus Action attacks belong to builds where you have multiple weapons (two weapon fighting, attacking with two ends of a polearm with PAM, using two fists or body parts for martial arts)… and hand crossbows, but not darts?
Nah, not plausible, it’s plain what happened: They released a feat that never worked as intended, but since it still worked (and was very good!) for another eligible use, they never bothered fixing it.
There is this sage advice from 2014 saying that attacking twice with hand crossbow is intended. I can't find any indication that it was meant to be used with a weapon in the other hand.
I wouldn't read too much into that, he's just saying it works RAW. I'd be surprised if the repeating hand crossbow thing was anything but an accident.
I was just pointing it out in regard to OP's "was this common knowledge" question.
Considering that in former editions a repeating hand crossbow was a common weapon, and sword+crossbow was a common play style, and is common in popular fiction… I think it is letting WotC off the hook to pretend that the feat wasn’t clearly written with that in mind. If it was a feat to take a bonus shot with a hand crossbow when you attack with a hand crossbow alone… (1) why was that even a feat idea? and (2) why use vague “one handed weapon” language instead of simpler consolidated references to the crossbow? Bonus Action attacks belong to builds where you have multiple weapons (two weapon fighting, attacking with two ends of a polearm with PAM, using two fists or body parts for martial arts)… and hand crossbows, but not darts?
Nah, not plausible, it’s plain what happened: They released a feat that never worked as intended, but since it still worked (and was very good!) for another eligible use, they never bothered fixing it.
I like to think they were trying to make it compatible with something that they scrapped/future proof it for when they did support that concept.
I do believe working with just hand crossbow was intended from inception as a backup.
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I used to think that the combination of Hand Crossbow and Crossbow Expert was nearly unusable, because a Hand Crossbow has the Ammunition property and thus cannot be used if you're dual wielding it with a different one-handed weapon.
However, I realize that Crossbow Expert does not require dual wielding, because the trigger condition for the bonus action attack (you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon) never says that the one-handed weapon can't be the same hand crossbow you're going to use for the bonus action attack.
Was this common knowledge and I never noticed?
Yup.
Two-Weapon Fighting specifies “melee weapons,” so it doesn’t work under t-wf anyway.
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I'm pretty sure the actual intent was the 'sword and crossbow' character.
I agree, the intent seems to have been for you to use a melee weapon and a crossbow. This would mean only getting a single shot in most combats, stowing the melee weapon and reloading if the enemy moved to range. The community uses it almost exclusively for single hand crossbow builds though.
Maybe, but it seems like a pretty awkward setup. The character would have to stow their sword every turn to reload the crossbow, then re-draw their sword.
There is this sage advice from 2014 saying that attacking twice with hand crossbow is intended.
I can't find any indication that it was meant to be used with a weapon in the other hand.
Quite possibly. No way to really know for sure. But that’s getting into RAI, and I’m just talking RAW.
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Unless the character is an Artificer (or has one in the party) who makes a hand crossbow with the Repeating Shot Infusion. Note that the Crossbow Expert Feat also addresses this specifically with "
That’s not a product of the loading property, it’s a product of the ammunition property. The Artificers’ repeating crossbow gets around it for you, but with crossbow expert alone, the character still needs the other hand free to put the ammunition in.
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I wouldn't read too much into that, he's just saying it works RAW. I'd be surprised if the repeating hand crossbow thing was anything but an accident.
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Ah, fair point. I stand corrected.
Considering that in former editions a repeating hand crossbow was a common weapon, and sword+crossbow was a common play style, and is common in popular fiction… I think it is letting WotC off the hook to pretend that the feat wasn’t clearly written with that in mind. If it was a feat to take a bonus shot with a hand crossbow when you attack with a hand crossbow alone… (1) why was that even a feat idea? and (2) why use vague “one handed weapon” language instead of simpler consolidated references to the crossbow? Bonus Action attacks belong to builds where you have multiple weapons (two weapon fighting, attacking with two ends of a polearm with PAM, using two fists or body parts for martial arts)… and hand crossbows, but not darts?
Nah, not plausible, it’s plain what happened: They released a feat that never worked as intended, but since it still worked (and was very good!) for another eligible use, they never bothered fixing it.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I was just pointing it out in regard to OP's "was this common knowledge" question.
I like to think they were trying to make it compatible with something that they scrapped/future proof it for when they did support that concept.
I do believe working with just hand crossbow was intended from inception as a backup.