The spell says If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then, the target takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends. You said: If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet,
You're just removing the word "moves" and replacing it with the word "teleport".
His comment is objectively inaccurate.
False in at least two ways.
He very literally plugged "teleport" in the place of "moves".
False.
Very literally what you wrote?
"If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet," <--- You
vs
"If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then," <--- The spell
You're swapping words around. This is specifically the topic of this thread, is teleportation considered movement.
The rules (context) definitely and in black and white call teleportation entering an area, whether it is movement or not. Beyond what DxJxC said pages ago, I don’t know what there is to go on. Teleportation doesn’t use your defined movement modes or use up your speed but does cause you to change position.
Is there anything in the game that cares how a creature got to a place that doesn’t tell you that it cares how that creature got there?
I think the best scenario we've generated in this thread so far is an L11 Horizon Walker (whose teleport isn't even magical, let alone a spell effect or magic item, letting us avoid cruft attached to specific spells or items) carrying a glyph of warding and having been hit earlier in the round with booming blade using their attack-teleport to traverse spike growth - if someone's come up with a more interesting niche case, I haven't noticed it.
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here.
Your movement can include jumping, climbing, and swimming. These different modes of movement can be combined with walking, or they can constitute your entire move. However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
The only instances of teleportation that I recall that can be used during your move (which is what that clause is about) are types of portals such as through the Arcane Gate or Transport Via Plants spells. These clearly require movement speed to walk through the gate which is deducted from your total.
Yeah, they can be entered on your move, very true. Your movement speed is required to enter what effectively amounts to a portal. A doorway between points that skips the middle points. So you still need to pass into and through that doorway with movement of some sort.
These versions of teleportation effects do beg the question, could you Misty Step through an Arcane Gate? (I think No, for a few reasons, but still a funny thought)
Correct me if I'm wrong (with evidence), but most other teleportation effects make use of your action, bonus action, or reaction, and don't require you to spend any of your available feet of movement to teleport.
Yeah nearly all are actions, bonus action, reactions or a rider effect resulting from the use of one of them. You're totally right. The on-your-move activated teleports aren't common. I certainly don't know of any beyond these two and of these two only seen one used in a game in practice.
And, these ones that must be moved through are very interesting. Certainly puts "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation." into context. Because you can for sure still activate the on-your-move teleportation of Transport Via Plants by spending 5ft of movement even while prone.But does that make the teleportation a move? or, just, something that happens while you move? That's not so easy to answer straight away.
More importantly, I think, to answer that there is another element of teleport-on-your-move we need to look at, and how movement rules in general interacts with these spells... Back to that originally quoted Movement rules line:
However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
If you walk 10 ft and through an Arcane Gate another teleported 300 ft... are you subtracting 10ft or 310ft from your speed for this move?
If you're considering the teleported distance as moved distance... then, by RAW you should be deducting it from your speed. Unless the moved distance is just the ie walked distance.
I don't know anyone who would subtract the teleport distance. Is that supposed to be happening by RAW?
In the case of Booming Blade, a target can safely Misty Step away, but will bring the thunderous effect with them, which continues to prevent any movement.
edit: "Entering an area" is little m "movement".
I think part of the problem for me seeing one interpretation as "better" than the other is that booming blade is just a tough spell to me to conceptualize. I really don't understand what it's supposed to be or why it exists -- I understand the mechanics of it, but in terms of being easy to visualize, it ain't no fireball.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
What I'm seeing in this thread is that there don't actually seem to be rules that rewrite common English to redefine words like 'enter;' and words like 'move' that actually have mechanical definition are sometimes still used in their common English sense. If the game isn't talking about the mechanic, then it is using a word in its colloquial usage, and should be interpreted as such.
I can already tell this discussion is not going to resolve itself (people are hardly arguing the topic as often as they argue about what their argument even is/means).
Just ask your DM if they want teleportation to count as movement then in a few years marvel at how it only mattered once the entire campaign.
In the case of Booming Blade, a target can safely Misty Step away, but will bring the thunderous effect with them, which continues to prevent any movement.
edit: "Entering an area" is little m "movement".
I think part of the problem for me seeing one interpretation as "better" than the other is that booming blade is just a tough spell to me to conceptualize. I really don't understand what it's supposed to be or why it exists -- I understand the mechanics of it, but in terms of being easy to visualize, it ain't no fireball.
When it comes to a game like this, I always start with an interpretation that is most consistent according to the larger body of rules. (i.e. Where RAW is unclear, RAI is usually more obvious.) Especially in a world of magic, some things simply can't be visualized perfectly. You can describe it one way under one set of circumstances, and differently when those circumstances change.
Here's what I recommend: Think of "Booming Blade" as temporarily lowering the "Sonic Boom" threshold for a struck target. As long as that character sticks to small movements, there is no issue, but as soon as they move bodily through space, they cross the "magical sound barrier", and produce a self-destructive shockwave. By teleporting, they never build up enough momentum to enter "magical mach speeds".
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here.
Your movement can include jumping, climbing, and swimming. These different modes of movement can be combined with walking, or they can constitute your entire move. However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
The only instances of teleportation that I recall that can be used during your move (which is what that clause is about) are types of portals such as through the Arcane Gate or Transport Via Plants spells. These clearly require movement speed to walk through the gate which is deducted from your total.
Yeah, they can be entered on your move, very true. Your movement speed is required to enter what effectively amounts to a portal. A doorway between points that skips the middle points. So you still need to pass into and through that doorway with movement of some sort.
These versions of teleportation effects do beg the question, could you Misty Step through an Arcane Gate? (I think No, for a few reasons, but still a funny thought)
Correct me if I'm wrong (with evidence), but most other teleportation effects make use of your action, bonus action, or reaction, and don't require you to spend any of your available feet of movement to teleport.
Yeah nearly all are actions, bonus action, reactions or a rider effect resulting from the use of one of them. You're totally right. The on-your-move activated teleports aren't common. I certainly don't know of any beyond these two and of these two only seen one used in a game in practice.
And, these ones that must be moved through are very interesting. Certainly puts "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation." into context. Because you can for sure still activate the on-your-move teleportation of Transport Via Plants by spending 5ft of movement even while prone.But does that make the teleportation a move? or, just, something that happens while you move? That's not so easy to answer straight away.
More importantly, I think, to answer that there is another element of teleport-on-your-move we need to look at, and how movement rules in general interacts with these spells... Back to that originally quoted Movement rules line:
However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
If you walk 10 ft and through an Arcane Gate another teleported 300 ft... are you subtracting 10ft or 310ft from your speed for this move?
If you're considering the teleported distance as moved distance... then, by RAW you should be deducting it from your speed. Unless the moved distance is just the ie walked distance.
I don't know anyone who would subtract the teleport distance. Is that supposed to be happening by RAW?
Glad you brought the "To move while prone, you must crawlor use magic such as teleportation" quote up again. Your last response to the quote was that it could mean that all magic counts as movement, but I'm having a hard time believing that is your actual interpretation. What does this quote tell you about teleportation in general?
I don't find that the quote is "really put into context" by the simple fact that the specific rule for Transport Via Plants requires the expenditure of 5 foot of movement to enter/exit.
It is a relevant point to consider whether or not one considers a teleported distance as a 'distance moved'. Personally I see teleportation portals as doors you move through: Moving through the door requires movement equal to the depth of the door (I imagine a portal to be unrealistically shallow). On the other hand, I see spells and effects that teleport you to move you from one point to another without you having to move a muscle (after the casting). Much like forced movement, but willing.
Misty, I'm late to the party, but just want to take a moment to say that I think you broke things down very well in your first post. To put "Movement" in my own words:
"Movement" in general is the common-sense meaning of the word... moving from one location to another, with a couple of small game-system caveats. Movement of your body that don't result in changing location (e.g., the movements your body makes while attacking, standing up from prone, etc. etc.) have been interpreted to not be "movement" for effects that trigger on movement.
"Movement" can be accomplished in several ways:
using "Your Move," that single or multiple movements during your turn where you move up to your Speed value (or even further, with enhancements like Dash increasing the value your total movements can add up to; or less, with penalties such as difficult terrain etc.) with one or more of the movement modalities your character has access to (walk, swim, fly, burrow, climb, etc.)
using other Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions which grant movement (such as an Orc's Aggressive bonus action, or a Ready reaction to move on another's turn), whether they grant a specific distance or a distance that's calculated based on your Speed value.
"Involuntary Movement" (which isn't a very accurate name for it, since it isn't always involuntary, nor is all involuntary movement this sort of thing), where your body moves from an outside force that doesn't involve Your Move or any action on your part (such as being pushed, or falling).
I'm decently certain that those are the only three ways that "movement" takes place (your move, your actions granting movement, or involuntary movement from other sources). Teleportation effects will often be type #2, but might be #3 when acted on by an outside caster or effect. I can easily imagine a feature that would provide teleportation as a #1 movement modality, but I'm not thinking that any currently exist.
I challenge anyone to quote an example of 5E movement which does not fit into one of those 3 categories, or an example of Teleportation which does not seem to fit tidily into #2 or #3.
I can already tell this discussion is not going to resolve itself (people are hardly arguing the topic as often as they argue about what there argument even is/means).
Just ask your DM if they want teleportation to count as movement then in a few years marvel at how it only mattered once the entire campaign.
I'm unsubscribing from this mess.
Yep, this has gone off the rails before it left the station. I think the reason it has failed is that some people read the rule books expecting them to be written in code - full of key words with locked in definitions, waiting to be called up later to mean exactly what was defined earlier.
Unhelpfully the rules do sometimes use those key words in phrases like "a melee weapon attack" or "the Attack action".
The list of key word phrases the rules use, however, is very short. And the rule book itself expressly indicates that it is not trying to be written that way and should not be read that way.
So "Move" is not a rigid rule term. Nor is "Movement", nor "Moving", "Enter", "Teleport", "Appear", "Willing" or "Speed". In many cases they could be used to refer as a code or a shorthand to summarize other rules elements, but the same word will then be used elsewhere without making that call-back to other rules. Example "Move" is often referring to that thing you are allowed to do on your turn besides your Action and Bonus Action, but then is also used to just mean go or be carried from one place to another in other sections of the book. "Movement" is often used to refer to those things like walking, swimming and flying that use a creature's speed, but also just refers to motion.
It all doesn't really matter much here too. We have confirmation in the books that teleportation is entering, which confirms our natural language interpretation that going from outside to inside is entering. So teleportation will default to trigger "Entering" effects in my games unless an exemption exists. Teleportation will then sometimes count as moving or movement for the purposes of various effects and triggers, but they don't really happen often. I trust any DM to rule wisely on whether teleportation will or won't in context. I, for example, would rule teleportation bypasses and escapes Booming Blade - because that is a cooler and more fun interpretation.
Misty, I'm late to the party, but just want to take a moment to say that I think you broke things down very well in your first post. To put "Movement" in my own words:
"Movement" in general is the common-sense meaning of the word... moving from one location to another, with a couple of small game-system caveats. Movement of your body that don't result in changing location (e.g., the movements your body makes while attacking, standing up from prone, etc. etc.) have been interpreted to not be "movement" for effects that trigger on movement.
"Movement" can be accomplished in several ways:
using "Your Move," that single or multiple movements during your turn where you move up to your Speed value (or even further, with enhancements like Dash increasing the value your total movements can add up to; or less, with penalties such as difficult terrain etc.) with one or more of the movement modalities your character has access to (walk, swim, fly, burrow, climb, etc.)
using other Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions which grant movement (such as an Orc's Aggressive bonus action, or a Ready reaction to move on another's turn), whether they grant a specific distance or a distance that's calculated based on your Speed value.
"Involuntary Movement" (which isn't a very accurate name for it, since it isn't always involuntary, nor is all involuntary movement this sort of thing), where your body moves from an outside force that doesn't involve Your Move or any action on your part (such as being pushed, or falling).
I'm decently certain that those are the only three ways that "movement" takes place (your move, your actions granting movement, or involuntary movement from other sources). Teleportation effects will often be type #2, but might be #3 when acted on by an outside caster or effect. I can easily imagine a feature that would provide teleportation as a #1 movement modality, but I'm not thinking that any currently exist.
I challenge anyone to quote an example of 5E movement which does not fit into one of those 3 categories, or an example of Teleportation which does not seem to fit tidily into #2 or #3.
Thank you for the kind words.
Regarding #1, I believe teleportation through portals would fit in this category as they are passed through during your move. Regarding movement not fitting into #1/#2/#3, I believe Dissonant Whispers might be one such case as it is as example of unwilling movement outside your turn which does spend your movement. I'm not sure if that fits into your #3, but I feel there is a distinction to be made between the unwilling movement outside your turn that uses your movement, and forced movement that doesn't use your movement (perhaps this distinction is minor, but in the context discussed I believe it is good to have).
In the case of Booming Blade, a target can safely Misty Step away, but will bring the thunderous effect with them, which continues to prevent any movement.
edit: "Entering an area" is little m "movement".
I think part of the problem for me seeing one interpretation as "better" than the other is that booming blade is just a tough spell to me to conceptualize. I really don't understand what it's supposed to be or why it exists -- I understand the mechanics of it, but in terms of being easy to visualize, it ain't no fireball.
I have always thought of the spell as if the target got covered in a hefty amount of static electricity that is released upon movement. If you don't move the 5 feet, the potential hurt won't be released.
And, these ones that must be moved through are very interesting. Certainly puts "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation." into context. Because you can for sure still activate the on-your-move teleportation of Transport Via Plants by spending 5ft of movement even while prone.But does that make the teleportation a move? or, just, something that happens while you move? That's not so easy to answer straight away.
More importantly, I think, to answer that there is another element of teleport-on-your-move we need to look at, and how movement rules in general interacts with these spells... Back to that originally quoted Movement rules line:
However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
If you walk 10 ft and through an Arcane Gate another teleported 300 ft... are you subtracting 10ft or 310ft from your speed for this move?
If you're considering the teleported distance as moved distance... then, by RAW you should be deducting it from your speed. Unless the moved distance is just the ie walked distance.
I don't know anyone who would subtract the teleport distance. Is that supposed to be happening by RAW?
Glad you brought the "To move while prone, you must crawlor use magic such as teleportation" quote up again. Your last response to the quote was that it could mean that all magic counts as movement, but I'm having a hard time believing that is your actual interpretation.
Yeah that was never my position. Someone said that quote meant teleportation IS a move, and I countered that only means teleportation is a move if it means magic is a move. Essentially, my position, as always, is you cannot always infer something that isn't explicitly stated. It hoists "magic such as teleportation" up as a possible option to move while prone, but never actually says that all teleportation is a move.
Rough analogy: If I say you can't keep outsiders away except with luck or the use of magic such as abjuration spells. This, to some, might read as: All abjuration spells keep out outsiders. But, that isn't what it says at all, it only suggests that there might be an abjuration spell that could accomplish this feat. Or, rather, if there is a way, abjuration is where you should be looking. Then, if you turn and find an abjuration spell and it says it specifically hedges the target. Well, you're not keeping an outsider away you're hedging it. But the functional purpose of the text remains true.
I read that line like this: To move while prone you must crawl. The only other option available, maybe, would be magic. What kind? Teleportation might work.
It is suggestive, and that is why it uses the word "such". It is offering a suggestion, not a restriction. The crawling part, that is the restriction. The magic such a teleportation is a dangling offer of something else maybe.
What does this quote tell you about teleportation in general?
Nothing.
I don't find that the quote is "really put into context" by the simple fact that the specific rule for Transport Via Plants requires the expenditure of 5 foot of movement to enter/exit.
It put it into context to me for sure. That's the exact sort of effect it was referencing. A teleport you do on the portion of your turn called the move? This is exactly the type of spell effect it was referring to. Again, everything in this section is actively discussing spending your movement, on your turn, up to your speed. That's the larger context of the quote, discussing your turn's move. It only makes sense in that context.
That really is worth repeating because it gets glossed over. The section of the rules that quote is from is all about spending your movement, up to your speed, during your move. It is only specifically relevant in that context, discussing the move portion of your combat turn.
It is a relevant point to consider whether or not one considers a teleported distance as a 'distance moved'. Personally I see teleportation portals as doors you move through: Moving through the door requires movement equal to the depth of the door (I imagine a portal to be unrealistically shallow).
So in these cases, with portal based teleportation, you consider the actual teleport distance to not be distance moved? Only the distance to/from the portal?
On the other hand, I see spells and effects that teleport you to move you from one point to another without you having to move a muscle (after the casting). Much like forced movement, but willing.
Yeah, I understand that. If I had to use the word "move" to describe teleportation I'd say the spell moved you, exactly like forced movement, just magically without any movement. "Magically moved without movement" even. But, since they never use that terminology in describing teleportation I don't intermingle it with something that has well defined mechanical terms like the movement rules do. Move, movement, speed, those are all fixed game terms that discuss your part of your turn, and speed and movement types are also discussed in overland adventuring. They're well defined and understood terms. Teleport type spells use different terms. Transport, vanish, appear, those are the words the text chooses to describe these effects and I have to believe that was an intentional distinction being made.
From my perspective, narrative-wise, the teleport spells simply re-assign your spacial coordinates. You just are there now. No movement, no motion, not even a folding of space or time. Just like if you are a little dot on gps map and then your coordinates were overwritten with new ones. Blip. You stopped being where you were and started being where you are now. You moved only in the sense that you're not in the same place any more, but you didn't move in the sense that you did the 5e gameterm called move.
Which is why if some other 5e gameterm is asking if that is a move? Then, no. But in the same sense, the few mind-compulsive effects we've chatted about, I get that the intent of those spells is to restrict even the ability to want to move, in the not-5e gameterm sense, but in the change location sense. Since you're discussing a mind-frame of a creature you're using common language terms not game terms.
Booming Blade is similar, but... funkier. Since it too relies on willingness. Somehow the effect is tied to the target's mental state. Being pushed from your location doesn't trigger the boom but someone moving away yourself does? Narrative-wise this is hard to explain. Obviously it was designed like this for balance reasons, being able to force them to move to trigger that damage was just too strong, and the idea was to create more of a dilemma for the target. Game-design wise I love the spell. Narrative-wise I have no idea what this thing is actually doing. Somehow only capable of triggering if they move but again only if they wanted to in their heart, or, something. How is it accomplishing this? Magic I guess.
Anyway, I digress. The question is: Is Booming Blade actually monitoring their mental states to determine willingness? If so, I'd actually say teleporting would trigger it. If not, and it is just a mechanical limiting factor to the physical triggering of the boom, as the spell seems to describe, then no, teleporting wouldn't trigger it because it isn't mechanically a movement.
I tend to think booming blade is the latter. And anything asking if something is moving should be assumed to be using the game term unless that doesn't make any sense or specifically referring to a creature's mental state.
I challenge anyone to quote an example of 5E movement which does not fit into one of those 3 categories, or an example of Teleportation which does not seem to fit tidily into #2 or #3.
Like, all teleportation.
2. using other Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions which grant movement (such as an Orc's Aggressive bonus action, or a Ready reaction to move on another's turn), whether they grant a specific distance or a distance that's calculated based on your Speed value.
They grant no movement, nor speed. They needn't even involve your colloquial use of the word movement and not require any gestures or movements, bodily, whatsoever.
3. "Involuntary Movement" (which isn't a very accurate name for it, since it isn't always involuntary, nor is all involuntary movement this sort of thing), where your body moves from an outside force that doesn't involve Your Move or any action on your part (such as being pushed, or falling).
There is an argument that teleportation falls into this category but only if you rephrased it forced move not forced movement. Movements have speed.
I almost understand your perspective but think you have Move and Movement reversed here. You can force someone to move by pushing them but you can't force movement by pushing them.
Movement very specifically refers to movement speeds and movement types, the thing you spend on your turn's move to do.. you know... the moving. Ie walking, climbing, swimming etc.
Edit: Yeah, just double checking both chapter 8: Adventuring and 9: Combat, "movement" is always used to refer to the various types of movement. Walking, swimming, climbing, flying etc. Talks about the speeds of these types of movement, long distance, in combat, but always specifically discussing these modes of getting around. Movement is very specific. Moves/move/moving/moved this gets used more, uh, openly, from time to time. But never movement. Movement is a hardline gameterm.
Movement very specifically refers to movement speeds and movement types, the thing you spend on your turn's move to do.. you know... the moving. Ie walking, climbing, swimming etc.
Edit: Yeah, just double checking both chapter 8: Adventuring and 9: Combat, "movement" is always used to refer to the various types of movement. Walking, swimming, climbing, flying etc. Talks about the speeds of these types of movement, long distance, in combat, but always specifically discussing these modes of getting around. Movement is very specific. Moves/move/moving/moved this gets used more, uh, openly, from time to time. But never movement. Movement is a hardline gameterm.
Ah? So it positively defines movement to only include those things? It black and white eliminates using the word “move” for anything else?
So the movement modes in the MM dont count as movement either?
Remember, that means when you fly (or burrow) you’re not moving.
Can a creature under the effect of compelled duel teleport more than 30 feet away from the caster? No. You can’t move farther than 30 feet away from the caster of compelled duel by any means, including teleportation.
Misty step doesn’t say the caster can bring worn or carried equipment with them. Are they intended to leave everything, including their clothes, behind? No, the caster’s worn and carried equipment are intended to go with them. Some teleportation effects do specify that you teleport with your gear; such specification is an example of a rule being needlessly fastidious, since no teleportation effect in the game assumes that you teleport without your clothes, just as the general movement rules don’t assume that you drop everything when you walk.
seems that teleportation is “specialized movement” and not general movement?
The spell says If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then, the target takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends. You said: If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet,
You're just removing the word "moves" and replacing it with the word "teleport".
Very literally what you wrote?
"If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet," <--- You
vs
"If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then," <--- The spell
You're swapping words around. This is specifically the topic of this thread, is teleportation considered movement.
I'm probably laughing.
I think the best scenario we've generated in this thread so far is an L11 Horizon Walker (whose teleport isn't even magical, let alone a spell effect or magic item, letting us avoid cruft attached to specific spells or items) carrying a glyph of warding and having been hit earlier in the round with booming blade using their attack-teleport to traverse spike growth - if someone's come up with a more interesting niche case, I haven't noticed it.
At no point did anyone, including me, assert that "If you willingly teleport 5 or more feet" was an attempt to quote the spell until you asserted it.
Yeah, they can be entered on your move, very true. Your movement speed is required to enter what effectively amounts to a portal. A doorway between points that skips the middle points. So you still need to pass into and through that doorway with movement of some sort.
These versions of teleportation effects do beg the question, could you Misty Step through an Arcane Gate? (I think No, for a few reasons, but still a funny thought)
Yeah nearly all are actions, bonus action, reactions or a rider effect resulting from the use of one of them. You're totally right. The on-your-move activated teleports aren't common. I certainly don't know of any beyond these two and of these two only seen one used in a game in practice.
And, these ones that must be moved through are very interesting. Certainly puts "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation." into context. Because you can for sure still activate the on-your-move teleportation of Transport Via Plants by spending 5ft of movement even while prone.But does that make the teleportation a move? or, just, something that happens while you move? That's not so easy to answer straight away.
More importantly, I think, to answer that there is another element of teleport-on-your-move we need to look at, and how movement rules in general interacts with these spells... Back to that originally quoted Movement rules line:
If you walk 10 ft and through an Arcane Gate another teleported 300 ft... are you subtracting 10ft or 310ft from your speed for this move?
If you're considering the teleported distance as moved distance... then, by RAW you should be deducting it from your speed. Unless the moved distance is just the ie walked distance.
I don't know anyone who would subtract the teleport distance. Is that supposed to be happening by RAW?
I'm probably laughing.
I think part of the problem for me seeing one interpretation as "better" than the other is that booming blade is just a tough spell to me to conceptualize. I really don't understand what it's supposed to be or why it exists -- I understand the mechanics of it, but in terms of being easy to visualize, it ain't no fireball.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you follow the conversation, that is exactly what you were saying.
You claim the spell says it is triggered if you teleport 5 or more feet. It doesn't. It triggers when you move 5 feet or more.
I'm probably laughing.
What I'm seeing in this thread is that there don't actually seem to be rules that rewrite common English to redefine words like 'enter;' and words like 'move' that actually have mechanical definition are sometimes still used in their common English sense. If the game isn't talking about the mechanic, then it is using a word in its colloquial usage, and should be interpreted as such.
I can already tell this discussion is not going to resolve itself (people are hardly arguing the topic as often as they argue about what their argument even is/means).
Just ask your DM if they want teleportation to count as movement then in a few years marvel at how it only mattered once the entire campaign.
I'm unsubscribing from this mess.
When it comes to a game like this, I always start with an interpretation that is most consistent according to the larger body of rules. (i.e. Where RAW is unclear, RAI is usually more obvious.) Especially in a world of magic, some things simply can't be visualized perfectly. You can describe it one way under one set of circumstances, and differently when those circumstances change.
Here's what I recommend: Think of "Booming Blade" as temporarily lowering the "Sonic Boom" threshold for a struck target. As long as that character sticks to small movements, there is no issue, but as soon as they move bodily through space, they cross the "magical sound barrier", and produce a self-destructive shockwave. By teleporting, they never build up enough momentum to enter "magical mach speeds".
Glad you brought the "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation" quote up again. Your last response to the quote was that it could mean that all magic counts as movement, but I'm having a hard time believing that is your actual interpretation. What does this quote tell you about teleportation in general?
I don't find that the quote is "really put into context" by the simple fact that the specific rule for Transport Via Plants requires the expenditure of 5 foot of movement to enter/exit.
It is a relevant point to consider whether or not one considers a teleported distance as a 'distance moved'. Personally I see teleportation portals as doors you move through: Moving through the door requires movement equal to the depth of the door (I imagine a portal to be unrealistically shallow). On the other hand, I see spells and effects that teleport you to move you from one point to another without you having to move a muscle (after the casting). Much like forced movement, but willing.
Misty, I'm late to the party, but just want to take a moment to say that I think you broke things down very well in your first post. To put "Movement" in my own words:
"Movement" in general is the common-sense meaning of the word... moving from one location to another, with a couple of small game-system caveats. Movement of your body that don't result in changing location (e.g., the movements your body makes while attacking, standing up from prone, etc. etc.) have been interpreted to not be "movement" for effects that trigger on movement.
"Movement" can be accomplished in several ways:
I'm decently certain that those are the only three ways that "movement" takes place (your move, your actions granting movement, or involuntary movement from other sources). Teleportation effects will often be type #2, but might be #3 when acted on by an outside caster or effect. I can easily imagine a feature that would provide teleportation as a #1 movement modality, but I'm not thinking that any currently exist.
I challenge anyone to quote an example of 5E movement which does not fit into one of those 3 categories, or an example of Teleportation which does not seem to fit tidily into #2 or #3.
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Yep, this has gone off the rails before it left the station. I think the reason it has failed is that some people read the rule books expecting them to be written in code - full of key words with locked in definitions, waiting to be called up later to mean exactly what was defined earlier.
Unhelpfully the rules do sometimes use those key words in phrases like "a melee weapon attack" or "the Attack action".
The list of key word phrases the rules use, however, is very short. And the rule book itself expressly indicates that it is not trying to be written that way and should not be read that way.
So "Move" is not a rigid rule term. Nor is "Movement", nor "Moving", "Enter", "Teleport", "Appear", "Willing" or "Speed". In many cases they could be used to refer as a code or a shorthand to summarize other rules elements, but the same word will then be used elsewhere without making that call-back to other rules. Example "Move" is often referring to that thing you are allowed to do on your turn besides your Action and Bonus Action, but then is also used to just mean go or be carried from one place to another in other sections of the book. "Movement" is often used to refer to those things like walking, swimming and flying that use a creature's speed, but also just refers to motion.
It all doesn't really matter much here too. We have confirmation in the books that teleportation is entering, which confirms our natural language interpretation that going from outside to inside is entering. So teleportation will default to trigger "Entering" effects in my games unless an exemption exists. Teleportation will then sometimes count as moving or movement for the purposes of various effects and triggers, but they don't really happen often. I trust any DM to rule wisely on whether teleportation will or won't in context. I, for example, would rule teleportation bypasses and escapes Booming Blade - because that is a cooler and more fun interpretation.
Thank you for the kind words.
Regarding #1, I believe teleportation through portals would fit in this category as they are passed through during your move.
Regarding movement not fitting into #1/#2/#3, I believe Dissonant Whispers might be one such case as it is as example of unwilling movement outside your turn which does spend your movement. I'm not sure if that fits into your #3, but I feel there is a distinction to be made between the unwilling movement outside your turn that uses your movement, and forced movement that doesn't use your movement (perhaps this distinction is minor, but in the context discussed I believe it is good to have).
I have always thought of the spell as if the target got covered in a hefty amount of static electricity that is released upon movement. If you don't move the 5 feet, the potential hurt won't be released.
Dissonant Whispers, using your reaction, is a classic #2. Infestation, using no action type, is a #3.
I really think these 3 broad categories of movement cover all scenarios. The name for #3 could be much better… “forced movement?” “Other movement”?
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Yeah that was never my position. Someone said that quote meant teleportation IS a move, and I countered that only means teleportation is a move if it means magic is a move. Essentially, my position, as always, is you cannot always infer something that isn't explicitly stated. It hoists "magic such as teleportation" up as a possible option to move while prone, but never actually says that all teleportation is a move.
Rough analogy: If I say you can't keep outsiders away except with luck or the use of magic such as abjuration spells. This, to some, might read as: All abjuration spells keep out outsiders. But, that isn't what it says at all, it only suggests that there might be an abjuration spell that could accomplish this feat. Or, rather, if there is a way, abjuration is where you should be looking. Then, if you turn and find an abjuration spell and it says it specifically hedges the target. Well, you're not keeping an outsider away you're hedging it. But the functional purpose of the text remains true.
I read that line like this: To move while prone you must crawl. The only other option available, maybe, would be magic. What kind? Teleportation might work.
It is suggestive, and that is why it uses the word "such". It is offering a suggestion, not a restriction. The crawling part, that is the restriction. The magic such a teleportation is a dangling offer of something else maybe.
Nothing.
It put it into context to me for sure. That's the exact sort of effect it was referencing. A teleport you do on the portion of your turn called the move? This is exactly the type of spell effect it was referring to. Again, everything in this section is actively discussing spending your movement, on your turn, up to your speed. That's the larger context of the quote, discussing your turn's move. It only makes sense in that context.
That really is worth repeating because it gets glossed over. The section of the rules that quote is from is all about spending your movement, up to your speed, during your move. It is only specifically relevant in that context, discussing the move portion of your combat turn.
So in these cases, with portal based teleportation, you consider the actual teleport distance to not be distance moved? Only the distance to/from the portal?
Yeah, I understand that. If I had to use the word "move" to describe teleportation I'd say the spell moved you, exactly like forced movement, just magically without any movement. "Magically moved without movement" even. But, since they never use that terminology in describing teleportation I don't intermingle it with something that has well defined mechanical terms like the movement rules do. Move, movement, speed, those are all fixed game terms that discuss your part of your turn, and speed and movement types are also discussed in overland adventuring. They're well defined and understood terms. Teleport type spells use different terms. Transport, vanish, appear, those are the words the text chooses to describe these effects and I have to believe that was an intentional distinction being made.
From my perspective, narrative-wise, the teleport spells simply re-assign your spacial coordinates. You just are there now. No movement, no motion, not even a folding of space or time. Just like if you are a little dot on gps map and then your coordinates were overwritten with new ones. Blip. You stopped being where you were and started being where you are now. You moved only in the sense that you're not in the same place any more, but you didn't move in the sense that you did the 5e gameterm called move.
Which is why if some other 5e gameterm is asking if that is a move? Then, no. But in the same sense, the few mind-compulsive effects we've chatted about, I get that the intent of those spells is to restrict even the ability to want to move, in the not-5e gameterm sense, but in the change location sense. Since you're discussing a mind-frame of a creature you're using common language terms not game terms.
Booming Blade is similar, but... funkier. Since it too relies on willingness. Somehow the effect is tied to the target's mental state. Being pushed from your location doesn't trigger the boom but someone moving away yourself does? Narrative-wise this is hard to explain. Obviously it was designed like this for balance reasons, being able to force them to move to trigger that damage was just too strong, and the idea was to create more of a dilemma for the target. Game-design wise I love the spell. Narrative-wise I have no idea what this thing is actually doing. Somehow only capable of triggering if they move but again only if they wanted to in their heart, or, something. How is it accomplishing this? Magic I guess.
Anyway, I digress. The question is: Is Booming Blade actually monitoring their mental states to determine willingness? If so, I'd actually say teleporting would trigger it. If not, and it is just a mechanical limiting factor to the physical triggering of the boom, as the spell seems to describe, then no, teleporting wouldn't trigger it because it isn't mechanically a movement.
I tend to think booming blade is the latter. And anything asking if something is moving should be assumed to be using the game term unless that doesn't make any sense or specifically referring to a creature's mental state.
I'm probably laughing.
Like, all teleportation.
They grant no movement, nor speed. They needn't even involve your colloquial use of the word movement and not require any gestures or movements, bodily, whatsoever.
There is an argument that teleportation falls into this category but only if you rephrased it forced move not forced movement. Movements have speed.
I almost understand your perspective but think you have Move and Movement reversed here. You can force someone to move by pushing them but you can't force movement by pushing them.
Movement very specifically refers to movement speeds and movement types, the thing you spend on your turn's move to do.. you know... the moving. Ie walking, climbing, swimming etc.
Edit: Yeah, just double checking both chapter 8: Adventuring and 9: Combat, "movement" is always used to refer to the various types of movement. Walking, swimming, climbing, flying etc. Talks about the speeds of these types of movement, long distance, in combat, but always specifically discussing these modes of getting around. Movement is very specific. Moves/move/moving/moved this gets used more, uh, openly, from time to time. But never movement. Movement is a hardline gameterm.
These very examples use "move" not "movement" you have these words reversed.
I'm probably laughing.
Ah? So it positively defines movement to only include those things? It black and white eliminates using the word “move” for anything else?
So the movement modes in the MM dont count as movement either?
Remember, that means when you fly (or burrow) you’re not moving.
Teleport rulings from SAC
Can a creature under the effect of compelled duel teleport more than 30 feet away from the caster? No. You can’t move farther than 30 feet away from the caster of compelled duel by any means, including teleportation.
Misty step doesn’t say the caster can bring worn or carried equipment with them. Are they intended to leave everything, including their clothes, behind? No, the caster’s worn and carried equipment are intended to go with them.
Some teleportation effects do specify that you teleport with your gear; such specification is an example of a rule being needlessly fastidious, since no teleportation effect in the game assumes that you teleport without your clothes, just as the general movement rules don’t assume that you drop everything when you walk.
seems that teleportation is “specialized movement” and not general movement?
I'm not sure about the point of arguing narrow definitions of Engish words… when we know for certain the authors of the books didn't.