*This thread is meant as a sum-up of an off-topic discussion in another thread. State your own conclusions if you like*
Personally, I believe teleportation is considered a type of movement and that it causes the teleporting creature to enter the area teleported into (thus not bypassing spell effects of spells like Whirlwind). To make the assertion, 2 topics need to be briefly addressed:
1: What does the game consider as movement?
2: When does a creature enter an area?
What does the game consider as movement? There are 3 things (at least) to keep track of when discussing movement in D&D 5e: your move, movement, and speed. I make the distinction between Your Move and Movement to make referencing either easier in case the discussion gets muddled).
Your Move: Throughout the PHB, "your move" is referred to as a specific type of phase (for lack of better word), just like an action, bonus action, reaction are all separate entities. While it might be difficult to think of them as phases due to the lack of set sequence, they are still parts that can make up a whole turn (despite the mutability of said turn). During this phase on your turn you spend movement up to your speed to move around.
Movement: Movement is a general term that describes different types of movement. There is no one definition in the rules that describe how this word is to be understood in all contexts, and it is used in a variety of contexts throughout the rules (when a game term isn't clearly defined, the common English understanding applies in the given context). In the context of Your Move, movement is most often referred to as a consumable resource used to actively move your character around during your turn. Some effects can cause you to spend Your Move to move unwillingly (e.g. Possession/Command/Compulsion). Outside the context of Your Move, movement is also understood to mean: (1) moving unwillingly outside your turn (e.g. Dissonant Whispers); (2) moving willingly using your action/bonus action/reaction (e.g. Teleport/Plane Shift/features such as Skirmisher (Scout Rogue)); or (3) being forcefully moved (e.g. Thunderwave/Scatter/falling).
Speed: A character's speed is the total amount of movement a character can normally spend on its turn. Features, spells, and other effects can alter your speed or grant you movement exceeding the limit set by your speed. Common examples include the Longstrider spell or the Dash action. The word "speed" is also used to describe the different types of movement speeds, such as climbing, flying, burrowing etc.
The rules seem to regard all of the different types of movement I listed in the Movement section as types of movement, no matter whether or not they were willing, unwilling, or forced. Regarding teleportation, the rules seem to consider it a form of movement, which is explicitly stated in the following rules statement in the Movement and Positioning section of PHB: "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation".
When does a creature enter an area? The rules don't define the word "enter", so the common English understanding applies. As such, a creature seems to be entering an area when the creature changes its position from a point outside the area to a point inside the area. The how or why doesn't seem to matter. Furthermore, spells such as Whirlwind make it clear that it matters who moves when the game asks for someone to be "entering". The spell Magic Circle likewise makes it clear that teleportation can cause a creature to enter an area.
Finally, it is important to keep in mind that the game's mechanics (rules) are created to support the narrative, not vice versa. If it does the opposite (create a logical gap in the narrative), it defeats the purpose of the rules. If one considers teleportation to not be movement and not count as entering an area, an example of a logical gap in the narrative could be having to explain how the teleporting wizard is not affected by all the whirling, razor-sharp blades made by Blade Barrier that he is now standing in the middle of (or being completely unscathed by the Whirlwind he is casually strolling through).
*Disclaimer: No definitive conclusions seem to have been reached after 23 pages of discussion*
So, teleportation isn’t movement, but it does cause the teleporting creature to suddenly be in the area of effect that it was not in before, therefore meaning that they entered the area.
So, teleportation isn’t movement, but it does cause the teleporting creature to suddenly be in the area of effect that it was not in before, therefore meaning that they entered the area.
So you don't consider the below quote to state that teleportation is movement?
Movement and Positioning To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation
It presents teleportation as a way to get from one position to another without using movement.
To do X, you must Y or Z. This type of statement means you must do either Y or Z in order to do X. Not that Y is the only option if you want to do X and that Z is a way of avoiding to do X...
Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources. I can feasibly teleport myself while not physically moving any part of my body (ignoring for a second that teleporting via most means requires spellcasting and components that might themselves require moving a body part; I'm sure some means don't require components though, like subtle spell).
In terms of entering an area (or area of effect), I would rule teleportation would qualify (it moves you into the area, therefore you have entered it). In terms of triggering effects that trigger on movement (like booming blade) I would rule it does not qualify to trigger the effect (you are not necessarily moving or using movement resources). It wouldn't trigger OAs ever, because the rules say so (beat to death in the other thread that was).
If a means of teleportation that used movement resources exists, I would argue it would count as movement for Booming Blade or similar effects (the closest examples i can think of would be stepping through a portal that teleported you like the one made by arcane gate, or using the "fold space" ability of the dimensional loop, but I'm not sure if either of those would be considered true teleportation.
Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources. I can feasibly teleport myself while not physically moving any part of my body (ignoring for a second that teleporting via most means requires spellcasting and components that might themselves require moving a body part; I'm sure some means don't require components though, like subtle spell).
In terms of entering an area (or area of effect), I would rule teleportation would qualify (it moves you into the area, therefore you have entered it). In terms of triggering effects that trigger on movement (like booming blade) I would rule it does not qualify to trigger the effect (you are not necessarily moving or using movement resources). It wouldn't trigger OAs ever, because the rules say so (beat to death in the other thread that was).
If a means of teleportation that used movement resources exists, I would argue it would count as movement for Booming Blade or similar effects (the closest examples i can think of would be stepping through a portal that teleported you like the one made by arcane gate, or using the "fold space" ability of the [magicitem]dimensional loop[/magic item], but I'm not sure if either of those would be considered true teleportation.
I'd definitely say that Arcane Gate counts as teleportation. However that spell, along with spells such as Transport Via Plants are not relevant to the discussion at hand as they require you to spend movement, as you point out.
I am a little confused as to what you mean when you write "Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources". Are you saying the spell moves you and that the caster is thus not moving?
Teleportation is a form of movement that does not require you to use your own movement on a turn.
In the same way, if you are aboard a ship, then you have both the ship's movement speed (say a warship, moving at 3 miles per hour) but can also use your own movement speed to move around the ship. One uses your movement. The other is movement that is happening to you. Teleportation would fall into the latter category.
If the ship enters the area of something that would affect you - for example, the effecy of a Healing Spirit spell, then you are affected by it just as you would be if you had used your movement speed, or had teleported into it.
It presents teleportation as a way to get from one position to another without using movement.
To do X, you must Y or Z. This type of statement means you must do either Y or Z in order to do X. Not that Y is the only option if you want to do X and that Z is a way of avoiding to do X...
No need to overthink it. Teleportation doesn't use movement.
It doesn’t say “to do movement,” it says “to move.” RAW is very particular about these things.
So you believe the game specifically uses "to move" to mean one thing and "movement" to mean another? How do you see the game differentiating between the two terms?
It presents teleportation as a way to get from one position to another without using movement.
To do X, you must Y or Z. This type of statement means you must do either Y or Z in order to do X. Not that Y is the only option if you want to do X and that Z is a way of avoiding to do X...
No need to overthink it. Teleportation doesn't use movement.
I never claimed it "used movement". I said it was a type of movement. While there is no need to overthink things, completely butchering an 'in order to X, do Y or Z' statement as to not "overthink" things is a little to much in the other direction in my opinion :s
Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources. I can feasibly teleport myself while not physically moving any part of my body (ignoring for a second that teleporting via most means requires spellcasting and components that might themselves require moving a body part; I'm sure some means don't require components though, like subtle spell).
In terms of entering an area (or area of effect), I would rule teleportation would qualify (it moves you into the area, therefore you have entered it). In terms of triggering effects that trigger on movement (like booming blade) I would rule it does not qualify to trigger the effect (you are not necessarily moving or using movement resources). It wouldn't trigger OAs ever, because the rules say so (beat to death in the other thread that was).
If a means of teleportation that used movement resources exists, I would argue it would count as movement for Booming Blade or similar effects (the closest examples i can think of would be stepping through a portal that teleported you like the one made by arcane gate, or using the "fold space" ability of the [magicitem]dimensional loop[/magic item], but I'm not sure if either of those would be considered true teleportation.
I'd definitely say that Arcane Gate counts as teleportation. However that spell, along with spells such as Transport Via Plants are not relevant to the discussion at hand as they require you to spend movement, as you point out.
I am a little confused as to what you mean when you write "Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources". Are you saying the spell moves you and that the caster is thus not moving?
Teleportation moves you from Point A to Point B. It does not require you to expend any of your speed (as a game resource) to do so. It theoretically does not require you to actually physically move any part of your body at all (you don't even have to blink or waggle a finger to activate some teleportation effects) to do so. Therefore I cannot rule that it counts as movement for the purpose of game effects that would trigger on movement (whether speed or physical motion of the body).
It does, however, potentially move you into an area or area of effect, and I rule that that counts as "entering" for the purpose of determining whether that AoE triggers. It's basically the ship analogy above, but instantaneous and not physical.
Something that teleports has moved; for example, you can't use teleportation to transport a glyph of warding without breaking it. Whatever space it moves to, it enters, and whatever space it moves from, it exits.
There are a variety of special rules that apply to this movement; for example, by default teleportation won't trigger an Opportunity Attack, and it will teleport carried objects along with the teleporter but not carried creatures or non-carried anything. As is the case for all rules in the game, there may be specific exceptions, such as a spell that leaves carried objects behind, or a spell that teleports carried creatures.
It presents teleportation as a way to get from one position to another without using movement.
To do X, you must Y or Z. This type of statement means you must do either Y or Z in order to do X. Not that Y is the only option if you want to do X and that Z is a way of avoiding to do X...
No need to overthink it. Teleportation doesn't use movement.
I never claimed it "used movement". I said it was a type of movement. While there is no need to overthink things, completely butchering an 'in order to X, do Y or Z' statement as to not "overthink" things is a little to much in the other direction in my opinion :s
I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, so I'll put it in another context. If you teleport into a lake, you may not have moved into the lake, but you are definitely going to get wet when you get there.
It presents teleportation as a way to get from one position to another without using movement.
To do X, you must Y or Z. This type of statement means you must do either Y or Z in order to do X. Not that Y is the only option if you want to do X and that Z is a way of avoiding to do X...
No need to overthink it. Teleportation doesn't use movement.
I never claimed it "used movement". I said it was a type of movement. While there is no need to overthink things, completely butchering an 'in order to X, do Y or Z' statement as to not "overthink" things is a little to much in the other direction in my opinion :s
I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, so I'll put it in another context. If you teleport into a lake, you may not have moved into the lake, but you are definitely going to get wet when you get there.
I seem to disagree with you. The quote is an 'in order to X, do Y or Z' statement. How you reach the conclusion that the Z is an option to avoid doing X while getting the benefits of X, is something I don't understand. I do understand your stance on the overall topic though.
So, teleportation isn’t movement, but it does cause the teleporting creature to suddenly be in the area of effect that it was not in before, therefore meaning that they entered the area.
So you don't consider the below quote to state that teleportation is movement?
Movement and Positioning To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation
If that means "teleportation is movement" then it also means "using magic is movement".
Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources. I can feasibly teleport myself while not physically moving any part of my body (ignoring for a second that teleporting via most means requires spellcasting and components that might themselves require moving a body part; I'm sure some means don't require components though, like subtle spell).
In terms of entering an area (or area of effect), I would rule teleportation would qualify (it moves you into the area, therefore you have entered it). In terms of triggering effects that trigger on movement (like booming blade) I would rule it does not qualify to trigger the effect (you are not necessarily moving or using movement resources). It wouldn't trigger OAs ever, because the rules say so (beat to death in the other thread that was).
If a means of teleportation that used movement resources exists, I would argue it would count as movement for Booming Blade or similar effects (the closest examples i can think of would be stepping through a portal that teleported you like the one made by arcane gate, or using the "fold space" ability of the [magicitem]dimensional loop[/magic item], but I'm not sure if either of those would be considered true teleportation.
I'd definitely say that Arcane Gate counts as teleportation. However that spell, along with spells such as Transport Via Plants are not relevant to the discussion at hand as they require you to spend movement, as you point out.
I am a little confused as to what you mean when you write "Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources". Are you saying the spell moves you and that the caster is thus not moving?
Teleportation moves you from Point A to Point B. It does not require you to expend any of your speed (as a game resource) to do so. It theoretically does not require you to actually physically move any part of your body at all (you don't even have to blink or waggle a finger to activate some teleportation effects) to do so. Therefore I cannot rule that it counts as movement for the purpose of game effects that would trigger on movement (whether speed or physical motion of the body).
It does, however, potentially move you into an area or area of effect, and I rule that that counts as "entering" for the purpose of determining whether that AoE triggers. It's basically the ship analogy above, but instantaneous and not physical.
So we agree that teleportation moves you. Now, do you consider it movement? Or do you consider all movement to require the expenditure of movement speed?
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*This thread is meant as a sum-up of an off-topic discussion in another thread. State your own conclusions if you like*
Personally, I believe teleportation is considered a type of movement and that it causes the teleporting creature to enter the area teleported into (thus not bypassing spell effects of spells like Whirlwind). To make the assertion, 2 topics need to be briefly addressed:
1: What does the game consider as movement?
2: When does a creature enter an area?
What does the game consider as movement?
There are 3 things (at least) to keep track of when discussing movement in D&D 5e: your move, movement, and speed.
I make the distinction between Your Move and Movement to make referencing either easier in case the discussion gets muddled).
Your Move:
Throughout the PHB, "your move" is referred to as a specific type of phase (for lack of better word), just like an action, bonus action, reaction are all separate entities. While it might be difficult to think of them as phases due to the lack of set sequence, they are still parts that can make up a whole turn (despite the mutability of said turn). During this phase on your turn you spend movement up to your speed to move around.
Movement:
Movement is a general term that describes different types of movement. There is no one definition in the rules that describe how this word is to be understood in all contexts, and it is used in a variety of contexts throughout the rules (when a game term isn't clearly defined, the common English understanding applies in the given context).
In the context of Your Move, movement is most often referred to as a consumable resource used to actively move your character around during your turn. Some effects can cause you to spend Your Move to move unwillingly (e.g. Possession/Command/Compulsion).
Outside the context of Your Move, movement is also understood to mean: (1) moving unwillingly outside your turn (e.g. Dissonant Whispers); (2) moving willingly using your action/bonus action/reaction (e.g. Teleport/Plane Shift/features such as Skirmisher (Scout Rogue)); or (3) being forcefully moved (e.g. Thunderwave/Scatter/falling).
Speed:
A character's speed is the total amount of movement a character can normally spend on its turn. Features, spells, and other effects can alter your speed or grant you movement exceeding the limit set by your speed. Common examples include the Longstrider spell or the Dash action. The word "speed" is also used to describe the different types of movement speeds, such as climbing, flying, burrowing etc.
The rules seem to regard all of the different types of movement I listed in the Movement section as types of movement, no matter whether or not they were willing, unwilling, or forced. Regarding teleportation, the rules seem to consider it a form of movement, which is explicitly stated in the following rules statement in the Movement and Positioning section of PHB: "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation".
When does a creature enter an area?
The rules don't define the word "enter", so the common English understanding applies.
As such, a creature seems to be entering an area when the creature changes its position from a point outside the area to a point inside the area. The how or why doesn't seem to matter. Furthermore, spells such as Whirlwind make it clear that it matters who moves when the game asks for someone to be "entering". The spell Magic Circle likewise makes it clear that teleportation can cause a creature to enter an area.
Finally, it is important to keep in mind that the game's mechanics (rules) are created to support the narrative, not vice versa. If it does the opposite (create a logical gap in the narrative), it defeats the purpose of the rules. If one considers teleportation to not be movement and not count as entering an area, an example of a logical gap in the narrative could be having to explain how the teleporting wizard is not affected by all the whirling, razor-sharp blades made by Blade Barrier that he is now standing in the middle of (or being completely unscathed by the Whirlwind he is casually strolling through).
*Disclaimer: No definitive conclusions seem to have been reached after 23 pages of discussion*
So, teleportation isn’t movement, but it does cause the teleporting creature to suddenly be in the area of effect that it was not in before, therefore meaning that they entered the area.
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My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
So you don't consider the below quote to state that teleportation is movement?
That is correct.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Are you replying to me? If so, what does the quote inform you regarding teleportation?
It presents teleportation as a way to get from one position to another without using movement.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
To do X, you must Y or Z. This type of statement means you must do either Y or Z in order to do X. Not that Y is the only option if you want to do X and that Z is a way of avoiding to do X...
It doesn’t say “to do movement,” it says “to move.” RAW is very particular about these things.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXV?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources. I can feasibly teleport myself while not physically moving any part of my body (ignoring for a second that teleporting via most means requires spellcasting and components that might themselves require moving a body part; I'm sure some means don't require components though, like subtle spell).
In terms of entering an area (or area of effect), I would rule teleportation would qualify (it moves you into the area, therefore you have entered it). In terms of triggering effects that trigger on movement (like booming blade) I would rule it does not qualify to trigger the effect (you are not necessarily moving or using movement resources). It wouldn't trigger OAs ever, because the rules say so (beat to death in the other thread that was).
If a means of teleportation that used movement resources exists, I would argue it would count as movement for Booming Blade or similar effects (the closest examples i can think of would be stepping through a portal that teleported you like the one made by arcane gate, or using the "fold space" ability of the dimensional loop, but I'm not sure if either of those would be considered true teleportation.
I'd definitely say that Arcane Gate counts as teleportation. However that spell, along with spells such as Transport Via Plants are not relevant to the discussion at hand as they require you to spend movement, as you point out.
I am a little confused as to what you mean when you write "Teleportation moves you, but does not require you to move or use your movement resources". Are you saying the spell moves you and that the caster is thus not moving?
Teleportation is a form of movement that does not require you to use your own movement on a turn.
In the same way, if you are aboard a ship, then you have both the ship's movement speed (say a warship, moving at 3 miles per hour) but can also use your own movement speed to move around the ship. One uses your movement. The other is movement that is happening to you. Teleportation would fall into the latter category.
If the ship enters the area of something that would affect you - for example, the effecy of a Healing Spirit spell, then you are affected by it just as you would be if you had used your movement speed, or had teleported into it.
No need to overthink it. Teleportation doesn't use movement.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
So you believe the game specifically uses "to move" to mean one thing and "movement" to mean another? How do you see the game differentiating between the two terms?
I never claimed it "used movement". I said it was a type of movement. While there is no need to overthink things, completely butchering an 'in order to X, do Y or Z' statement as to not "overthink" things is a little to much in the other direction in my opinion :s
Teleportation moves you from Point A to Point B. It does not require you to expend any of your speed (as a game resource) to do so. It theoretically does not require you to actually physically move any part of your body at all (you don't even have to blink or waggle a finger to activate some teleportation effects) to do so. Therefore I cannot rule that it counts as movement for the purpose of game effects that would trigger on movement (whether speed or physical motion of the body).
It does, however, potentially move you into an area or area of effect, and I rule that that counts as "entering" for the purpose of determining whether that AoE triggers. It's basically the ship analogy above, but instantaneous and not physical.
Something that teleports has moved; for example, you can't use teleportation to transport a glyph of warding without breaking it. Whatever space it moves to, it enters, and whatever space it moves from, it exits.
There are a variety of special rules that apply to this movement; for example, by default teleportation won't trigger an Opportunity Attack, and it will teleport carried objects along with the teleporter but not carried creatures or non-carried anything. As is the case for all rules in the game, there may be specific exceptions, such as a spell that leaves carried objects behind, or a spell that teleports carried creatures.
I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, so I'll put it in another context. If you teleport into a lake, you may not have moved into the lake, but you are definitely going to get wet when you get there.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I seem to disagree with you. The quote is an 'in order to X, do Y or Z' statement. How you reach the conclusion that the Z is an option to avoid doing X while getting the benefits of X, is something I don't understand. I do understand your stance on the overall topic though.
If that means "teleportation is movement" then it also means "using magic is movement".
I got quotes!
So we agree that teleportation moves you. Now, do you consider it movement? Or do you consider all movement to require the expenditure of movement speed?