Huh? The text explicitly says you can cast any spell.
How am I inventing exceptions that don't exist?
Let me post it again for all to read:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Huh? The text explicitly says you can cast any spell.
How am I inventing exceptions that don't exist?
Let me post it again for all to read:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Check out the text from the Bard: You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
Or the Cleric: You can use a holy symbol (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells.
The whole point of RAW is that we take what is written and go from there. We don't add things or make guesses as to what they meant such as it only applies to M (material components), this is more akin to RAI.
In that case you might be right, maybe they did only mean for it to be used that way.
But by RAW they wrote that you can use artisan's tools to cast any spell that uses INT.
This isn't a case of guessing the intention or specific/general though. The part of the feat that we're discussing is explicitly about the use of spellcasting focuses and that is only relevant in regard to material components. There is nothing in the context in that bulletpoint that would make it apply to anything but spellcasting focuses and material components.
and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
That "any" that you are so stuck at isn't an allowing one. It isn't there to open up the use of a focus well past how any other focus can be used but rather it is there as a limit. The first part of the sentence gives you the use of a spellcasting focus and the "any" then limits that use to only spells that use Int (as opposed to any spell you might be able to cast that uses a material component).
Huh? The text explicitly says you can cast any spell.
How am I inventing exceptions that don't exist?
Let me post it again for all to read:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
You're inventing an exception that doesn't exist because you're ignoring what it means to be able to use a spellcasting focus to cast a spell. What it means to be able to use a spellcasting focus to cast a spell is that the focus replaces the state material components of the spell, as explained in the rules for material components. If the spell has nothing to replace, then there's no interaction between the focus and the spellcasting. This is why "specific beats general" is irrelevant. The two texts complement each other; they do not contradict, no matter what font size you use.
This has been explained over and over again, by several people, to the point that I'm beginning to think you're not actually interested in achieving greater understanding, so you'll forgive me if I decline to play your game any further.
I see what you're all saying and agree completely.
The general rule for using a spellcasting focus is that it can be used in place of the material component part of a spell.
This general rule can be found in the spellcasting chapter in the PHB.
It is a general rule, no matter what you think.
Being a general rule it only gives way to a specific rule.
A specific rule overrides and trumps a general rule.
A general rule doesn't get to sneak into a specific ruling and supercede it.
The specific rule will always win.
Under the Artificer Initiate feat, within the 3rd bullet point is a specific rule. You don't get to apply the general rule of how spellcasting foci normally work and ignore what is written in this specific rule or decide that somehow the general rule still applies.
The specific wording says choosing and using artisan's tools allows you to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
This flat out denies and supercedes what you're trying to enforce here, that you can only use a spellcasting focus to cast a spell that requires M (material components). It allows you to do something specific that you normally could not generally do. Which is to cast any spell, regardless of whether you need material components or not to cast it, by using a specific type of spellcasting focus, artisan's tools.
Sorry if this rule that is written in the feat and is as plain as day and goes against the general ruling of not being able to do this. But it specifically says you can.
This is the very definition of how a specific rule beats a general one. Almost a textbook example as most specific rules allow you to do something that a general rule usually doesn't allow.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I agree to all the requirements for casting with one hand or two and empty or such. This was never the original question and is quite moot for this topic because I have both the spellcasting focus in one hand and the other hand completely free. So I believe i meet any and all conditions under the sun for the legitimate casting of the spell.
What I'm hoping to address here is whether or not it is legal under the RAW rules to cast a spell using a spellcasting focus IF it isn't required to cast such a spell.
That bullet point of the feat I mentioned before doesn't say or reference any such limitation that the spellcasting focus can only be used to cast spells that require M (material components).
It simply states that I CAN use the spellcasting focus, Alchemist's Supplies in this case, to cast ANY spell that requires INT to cast. And Magic Missile is a wizard spell in this case and does meet that requirement.
So according to all these points of RAW it should be allowed, shouldn't it?
I suppose I'll jump in here and concisely lay out which spells allow the focus to be used and which ones require a free hand not holding a focus, since I'm honestly quite surprised nobody has done it yet.
V only: does not require free hand, cannot be cast through focus.
V/S or S only: requires free hand, cannot be cast through focus.
V/S/M or S/M: requires free hand but a hand holding a focus counts, can be cast through focus.
V/M or M only: does not require free hand, can be cast through focus.
The bullet point in the feat doesn't doesn't reference the limitation of only working for spells with M components because it doesn't need to; that limitation is already inherently a part of how a spellcasting focus works. The sole point of the focus is to replace the M component, so without an M component for it to replace, a focus cannot be used.
I see what you're all saying and agree completely.
The general rule for using a spellcasting focus is that it can be used in place of the material component part of a spell.
This general rule can be found in the spellcasting chapter in the PHB.
It is a general rule, no matter what you think.
Being a general rule it only gives way to a specific rule.
A specific rule overrides and trumps a general rule.
A general rule doesn't get to sneak into a specific ruling and supercede it.
The specific rule will always win.
Under the Artificer Initiate feat, within the 3rd bullet point is a specific rule. You don't get to apply the general rule of how spellcasting foci normally work and ignore what is written in this specific rule or decide that somehow the general rule still applies.
The specific wording says choosing and using artisan's tools allows you to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
This flat out denies and supercedes what you're trying to enforce here, that you can only use a spellcasting focus to cast a spell that requires M (material components). It allows you to do something specific that you normally could not generally do. Which is to cast any spell, regardless of whether you need material components or not to cast it, by using a specific type of spellcasting focus, artisan's tools.
Sorry if this rule that is written in the feat and is as plain as day and goes against the general ruling of not being able to do this. But it specifically says you can.
This is the very definition of how a specific rule beats a general one. Almost a textbook example as most specific rules allow you to do something that a general rule usually doesn't allow.
That's not how the rules work. Specific beats general is for when two rules contradict each other. There's no contradiction here at all, just you misunderstanding a rule. The Artificer Initiate feat does not have any text letting (or forcing) you to use a Focus on a spell that can't use Foci - it has text letting you use a tool as a Focus.
For example, it could say this: "You gain proficiency with one type of artisan's tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a component pouch for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability." That wouldn't let you use the tool as a pouch for a spell that doesn't use pouches. It's saying that should the spell use pouches, you can. Same thing for the focus.
But separately, if we take a step back and breathe for a moment - the overall vibe I get from your post is that the conversation is, meaningfully speaking, over, because you've decided how you want the rule to work, which is the only thing that matters at games you DM. If you're not DMing, your interpretation doesn't matter, only your DM's does, and they're not here for this conversation. The point of conversations about the RAW is generally so a) DMs can know what the rules actually say before they change it and b) so Players can have a baseline set of assumptions for going into a campaign with a new DM blind. Past that, there's no real point in getting into the weeds of a disagreement over rules interpretations.
Yes. The feat gives a specific exception that allows you to use the chosen artisan tool as a spellcasting focus for spells that use Intelligence. Meaning you can use it as a spellcasting focus for Artificer spellcasting, Wizard spellcasting, and spells granted via racial traits or feats that use Intelligence as the spellcasting ability; this adds the tool as an alternate spellcasting focus for such spells, as opposed to a regular arcane focus or component pouch.
But "use as a spellcasting focus" still has a particular meaning, as defined in the rules (mentioned in multiple posts), that a spellcasting focus can replace material components that have no cost and don't get used up by the casting.
If you're using the tool to cast Artificer spells, then yes, any of those spells would require a material component based on how the Artificer spellcasting feature is defined. Presumably you would/could also use the tool to cast the cantrip and 1st-level spell that you gain via the feat itself, since they are spells from the Artificer spell list. Otherwise, it would only be used as part of casting non-Artificer spells that have a material component.
The Artificer Initiate feat works out well for my character, the forest gnome with Minor Illusion, because Minor Illusion does have a material component, and this way she can just use tools in-hand instead of keeping a bit of wool around. But it wouldn't apply to a High Elf's racial Cantrip unless their chosen Wizard cantrip has a material component.
For the record I understand that the general rule for using a spellcasting focus is that it is used for the M (material components) part of a spell.
For just about every instance when you cast a spell you have to abide by this general rule.
You guys seem to think this still applies when a specific rule suggests another way to cast a spell.
The feat I mentioned doesn't list any exceptions other than the 3rd bullet point which if you break down states 2 or 3 specific things.
1. You need to be using artisan's tools and you get to choose which ones.
2. You can cast any spell with them. This means any spell, not just ones with M (material components). The general rule which usually only allows for casting only spells with M (material components) with a focus doesn't apply here because a specific rule says any spell.
3. There is a caveat or addendum that adjusts this 'any spell' to actually be any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
So to sum up, the general rule which is almost always followed that you can cast only spells with a M (material component) is superceded by the specific rule mentioned here in the feat that has a set of specific conditions.
Since I am going by only what is written in the feat... that I can cast any spell... this includes spells with a M (material component)... it is not written that they are exempt... the only conditions are those that the feat mentions... having artisan's tools and the spell having INT for its spellcasting ability.
The general rule you guys are still trying to apply as some overall universal rule that will still affect this specific rule... actually won't supercede it.
The rule is that specific rules are followed instead of general rules, so for this particular instance you can use the focus to cast spells that don't require M (material components) so long as they use INT for their spellcasting ability.
This is not my interpretation or twisting of the rules. It is just the rules as they are written and applied by all. All who follow them that is. Anyone is free to homebrew or nerf rules as they see fit and what makes sense to them. Everyone in the world can do this and have a general rule beat specific one. But the rules of the game are quite clear that a specific rule beats a general rule.
Even if it doesn't make sense, even if it goes against what is the norm, whether it allows for strange things to happen, all this is irrelevant.
Specific beats general.
You are still free to change any rules and apply or not apply them as you see fit. But ignoring or somehow trying to still have a general rule beat a specific rule and claim it doesn't or that is compliments it when I have pointed out how it doesn't is not following RAW.
RAW is not interpreting or assuming or anything else, it is simply going by what is written.
And anyone can read what the text for the feat says.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The line "you can use ... as a spellcasting focus" is like a natural weapon saying "you can use ... to make attacks."
And saying "that means I can cast non-material component spells with this focus," is like saying "I can use the natural weapon to make spell attacks."
It is specific beats general, but the specific is not what you are saying it is. It specifically changes what is a spellcasting focus for you (thus "you can use as a spellcasting focus" being the correct way to express that as evidenced by every spellcasting feature that can use a focus using exactly the same wording). It does not change when a spellcasting focus can be used (for an example of that see artificer).
it does allow me to use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus, you are correct there.
But it also states what I can do with that focus.
It says I can cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Magic missile from the wizard spell list counts as any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Therefore by RAW I can cast it with this feat.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
it does allow me to use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus, you are correct there.
But it also states what I can do with that focus.
It says I can cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Magic missile from the wizard spell list counts as any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Therefore by RAW I can cast it with this feat.
Then a cleric can cast cure wounds while holding a shield (with holy symbol) and weapon because "You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells."
And that is no different between that and "you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability," is what can be used as a focus and what spells can use that focus.
So according to you and your argument: 100% of spellcasting classes can cast any non-material component spell they know from that class using a spellcasting focus. And the rules for material components are just flavor and not actually necessary.
I am still going to supply the V and S required by any spells that I cast because that is required by the rules.
And if there is a specific rule that allows something then there is a specific rule that allows something.
I am not changing the wording of the feat I mentioned, adding or subtracting anything, and most importantly not trying to interpret or impose any ideas of how I think the game or rules should work. I am simply going by what the feat says as written.
I happen to agree with the common sense idea that you don't need a focus (or components pouch) to cast spells that don't require M.
But once again we circle back to each person's opinion vs. RAW.
The feat says:
...artisan's tools...
...any spell...
...INT as its spellcasting ability...
No matter how many people weigh in and how many times they say it means spells that require M... it simply doesn't say that.
It does say:
...artisan's tools...
...any spell...
...INT as its spellcasting ability...
I think we're done here. Everyone is stuck on RAI, their personal opinions, or whatever else.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Incidently there is no rule posted anywhere in the spellcasting section that states you CAN or CANNOT use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't require one.
You just have to supply the other requirements.
Logic might suggest you CAN or CANNOT do this, but there is no rule addressing it.
Again to be clear, if a spell require any combination of V,S,M you have to supply those.
For example Magic Missile only requires V.S so you have to supply V,S. Nothing addresses whether you can supply V,S,M if you wish.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I am [Snip] not trying to interpret or impose any ideas of how I think the game or rules should work. I am simply going by what the feat says as written.
[Snip]
No matter how many people weigh in and how many times they say it means spells that require M... it simply doesn't say that.
[Snip]
I think we're done here. Everyone is stuck on RAI, their personal opinions, or whatever else.
But RAW is RAW.
I cut out all the parts that I'm not arguing against.
So you are of the opinion that every spellcasting class can cast every spell they learn via that class, regardless of whether or not it requires a focus or an empty hand, with their hands full as long as they are holding their focus.
Because every spellcasting class uses the same wording for spellcasting focuses as this feat.
RAW is RAW. The problem is that the RAW has 2 interpretations and only 1 doesn't ignore other rules and is RAI.
Incidently there is no rule posted anywhere in the spellcasting section that states you CAN or CANNOT use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't require one.
You just have to supply the other requirements.
Logic might suggest you CAN or CANNOT do this, but there is no rule addressing it.
Again to be clear, if a spell require any combination of V,S,M you have to supply those.
For example Magic Missile only requires V.S so you have to supply V,S. Nothing addresses whether you can supply V,S,M if you wish.
The way rules usually work is that if they say you can do something under a specific circumstance, then they don't need to list all the circumstances that it doesn't apply to.
The rules for somatic components say you need an empty hand (a hand holding a focus is not empty).
The rules for material components say you can use a focus instead of the material, and don't need the hand with the material/focus to be empty to perform somatic component.
These are the rules that DO state when you CAN and CANNOT use a focus. And they have been clarified in the SAC to mean exactly what they say (using cleric (which uses the same wording as the feat) as an example).
The problem basically comes down to some vagueness in the English language.
I really don't see where the confusion is. The (errata'ed) artificer class has specific text telling you that M components are added to every spell. That wording is absent from this feat.
If the feat is intended to work as Brian_Avery suggests, a corresponding errata is in order.
If you're going to ignore stuff I'm saying and make up what I am saying and such I can't help you. You are free to live in whatever fantasy land wins you this argument.
I have always maintained the rules and never once said you could cast spells that require S with out a free hand and other such things.
This was never about that, I have 2 hands, 1 is free and the other is using a focus. This covers all the bases and every type of situation I can imagine ever needing for the casting of a spell, whether is has S or M or S and M.
Again, this was never the issue or argument.
And regardless of what other classes or rules say anywhere else (cleric or not) you follow all the general rules all the time... except for when a specific one contradicts it. Then you go by the specific.
This feat creates a unique and specific RAW scenario where it simply says:
...artisan tools for a focus...
...any spell...
...INT as its spellcasting ability...
Because someone has this feat the specific rules mentioned herein supercede and trump any general rule, even the one that says you use a focus to cast M spells, if that is indeed what is written. Without adding anything or subtracting anything, and especially without interpreting anyone's individual ideas about what is meant or intended, no matter how obvious it might seem.
RAW (rules as written) means just that we go by what is written. Not adjusting that by any normal, general rules that usually apply. Just what is written in the feat.
...artisan tools as a focus...
...any spell...
...INT as its spellcasting focus...
The whole reason and the thing that is a sticking point for many is that when they say any spell they don't say except for concentration, or except for rituals, or even except for spells without M.
This creates the odd and crazy circumstance of being able to cast any spell, even those that don't have any M, with a focus.
I am not suggesting this as an alternative to what is normally needed. You would still need to supply the V and S and be able to do so regularly. Needing to speak for the V and have a free hand for the S. This just allows you to also add using a focus when one isn't needed.
Other classes don't get to automatically do anything similar. Not unless they also have a feat or feature, perhaps even a magic item, anything within the rules that allow them to do so.
I have a feat that specifically allows me to do what I am proposing, nothing more, nothing less.
It's there for all the world to read. If they stick to RAW it's undeniable and absolute. If you want to stray into the realms of RAI or personal interpretation, have at it.
I was only ever interested in the RAW and any RAW that I might not of been aware of. I couldn't find anything to contradict the RAW of what I posted.
No one has been able to point out any RAW that contradicts the RAW I've posted. There has been a lot of RAI and individual opinions and ideas but nothing that is concrete RAW.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
....The specific rule in this case is the 3rd bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat which states that you CAN use the spellcasting focus to cast ANY spell that requires INT as its spellcasting ability.
This seems to indicate pretty clearly that according to RAW you can use a spellcasting focus in this particular case to cast Magic Missile so long as the casting uses INT. So a wizard's magic missile is ok, but not a sorcerer's, since the sorcerer uses CHA and not INT as its spellcasting ability.
Does this make sense to anyone else?
@Brian_Avery, You're correct. Since sorcerer class has CHA enlisted as spell-casting ability, artisans' tools can not be used to cast spells that do not have INT specified as spell-casting ability.
But, when you take the 'Artificer Initiate' feat, you get to choose a cantrip and a level 1 spell from artificer's spell list and these spells use INT as spell-casting ability. So as a sorcerer, you can only cast the cantrip and the level 1 spell using the artisan's tools.
No one has been able to point out any RAW that contradicts the RAW I've posted. There has been a lot of RAI and individual opinions and ideas but nothing that is concrete RAW.
Haven't people repeatedly in this thread pointed to the spell component rules and the spell focus rules for other classes that work explicitly contrary to what you're saying?
The component rules are clear for what is required to cast a spell with an S component (and no M component): a free hand. The other spellcasting features tell you that they allow use of various focuses "for your [class] spells." The artificer class even has text telling you that it adds M components to spell without them for that class. The artificer initiate feat is entirely consistent with the setup of those rules (and missing the added M components) meaning that it makes tools work like other focuses -- and not like an Artificier's Tools Required focus.
Right. Well. Seems like there is only 1 person that disagrees with the RAW and refuses to address any of the multiple rules and examples that oppose their argument, and you can't argue about rules with people who don't read them.
So I'm done arguing whether the somatic and material component rules serve a purpose or just "focus go brr." I had to take a half year mental health break from the forums from dealing with people like this...
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Huh? The text explicitly says you can cast any spell.
How am I inventing exceptions that don't exist?
Let me post it again for all to read:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Check out the text from the Bard: You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
Or the Cleric: You can use a holy symbol (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells.
Should I go on?
This isn't a case of guessing the intention or specific/general though. The part of the feat that we're discussing is explicitly about the use of spellcasting focuses and that is only relevant in regard to material components. There is nothing in the context in that bulletpoint that would make it apply to anything but spellcasting focuses and material components.
That "any" that you are so stuck at isn't an allowing one. It isn't there to open up the use of a focus well past how any other focus can be used but rather it is there as a limit. The first part of the sentence gives you the use of a spellcasting focus and the "any" then limits that use to only spells that use Int (as opposed to any spell you might be able to cast that uses a material component).
You're inventing an exception that doesn't exist because you're ignoring what it means to be able to use a spellcasting focus to cast a spell. What it means to be able to use a spellcasting focus to cast a spell is that the focus replaces the state material components of the spell, as explained in the rules for material components. If the spell has nothing to replace, then there's no interaction between the focus and the spellcasting. This is why "specific beats general" is irrelevant. The two texts complement each other; they do not contradict, no matter what font size you use.
This has been explained over and over again, by several people, to the point that I'm beginning to think you're not actually interested in achieving greater understanding, so you'll forgive me if I decline to play your game any further.
I see what you're all saying and agree completely.
The general rule for using a spellcasting focus is that it can be used in place of the material component part of a spell.
This general rule can be found in the spellcasting chapter in the PHB.
It is a general rule, no matter what you think.
Being a general rule it only gives way to a specific rule.
A specific rule overrides and trumps a general rule.
A general rule doesn't get to sneak into a specific ruling and supercede it.
The specific rule will always win.
Under the Artificer Initiate feat, within the 3rd bullet point is a specific rule. You don't get to apply the general rule of how spellcasting foci normally work and ignore what is written in this specific rule or decide that somehow the general rule still applies.
The specific wording says choosing and using artisan's tools allows you to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
This flat out denies and supercedes what you're trying to enforce here, that you can only use a spellcasting focus to cast a spell that requires M (material components). It allows you to do something specific that you normally could not generally do. Which is to cast any spell, regardless of whether you need material components or not to cast it, by using a specific type of spellcasting focus, artisan's tools.
Sorry if this rule that is written in the feat and is as plain as day and goes against the general ruling of not being able to do this. But it specifically says you can.
This is the very definition of how a specific rule beats a general one. Almost a textbook example as most specific rules allow you to do something that a general rule usually doesn't allow.
I suppose I'll jump in here and concisely lay out which spells allow the focus to be used and which ones require a free hand not holding a focus, since I'm honestly quite surprised nobody has done it yet.
The bullet point in the feat doesn't doesn't reference the limitation of only working for spells with M components because it doesn't need to; that limitation is already inherently a part of how a spellcasting focus works. The sole point of the focus is to replace the M component, so without an M component for it to replace, a focus cannot be used.
That's not how the rules work. Specific beats general is for when two rules contradict each other. There's no contradiction here at all, just you misunderstanding a rule. The Artificer Initiate feat does not have any text letting (or forcing) you to use a Focus on a spell that can't use Foci - it has text letting you use a tool as a Focus.
For example, it could say this: "You gain proficiency with one type of artisan's tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a component pouch for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability." That wouldn't let you use the tool as a pouch for a spell that doesn't use pouches. It's saying that should the spell use pouches, you can. Same thing for the focus.
But separately, if we take a step back and breathe for a moment - the overall vibe I get from your post is that the conversation is, meaningfully speaking, over, because you've decided how you want the rule to work, which is the only thing that matters at games you DM. If you're not DMing, your interpretation doesn't matter, only your DM's does, and they're not here for this conversation. The point of conversations about the RAW is generally so a) DMs can know what the rules actually say before they change it and b) so Players can have a baseline set of assumptions for going into a campaign with a new DM blind. Past that, there's no real point in getting into the weeds of a disagreement over rules interpretations.
Yes. The feat gives a specific exception that allows you to use the chosen artisan tool as a spellcasting focus for spells that use Intelligence. Meaning you can use it as a spellcasting focus for Artificer spellcasting, Wizard spellcasting, and spells granted via racial traits or feats that use Intelligence as the spellcasting ability; this adds the tool as an alternate spellcasting focus for such spells, as opposed to a regular arcane focus or component pouch.
But "use as a spellcasting focus" still has a particular meaning, as defined in the rules (mentioned in multiple posts), that a spellcasting focus can replace material components that have no cost and don't get used up by the casting.
If you're using the tool to cast Artificer spells, then yes, any of those spells would require a material component based on how the Artificer spellcasting feature is defined. Presumably you would/could also use the tool to cast the cantrip and 1st-level spell that you gain via the feat itself, since they are spells from the Artificer spell list. Otherwise, it would only be used as part of casting non-Artificer spells that have a material component.
The Artificer Initiate feat works out well for my character, the forest gnome with Minor Illusion, because Minor Illusion does have a material component, and this way she can just use tools in-hand instead of keeping a bit of wool around. But it wouldn't apply to a High Elf's racial Cantrip unless their chosen Wizard cantrip has a material component.
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Ok, I think I get what's happening here.
For the record I understand that the general rule for using a spellcasting focus is that it is used for the M (material components) part of a spell.
For just about every instance when you cast a spell you have to abide by this general rule.
You guys seem to think this still applies when a specific rule suggests another way to cast a spell.
The feat I mentioned doesn't list any exceptions other than the 3rd bullet point which if you break down states 2 or 3 specific things.
1. You need to be using artisan's tools and you get to choose which ones.
2. You can cast any spell with them. This means any spell, not just ones with M (material components). The general rule which usually only allows for casting only spells with M (material components) with a focus doesn't apply here because a specific rule says any spell.
3. There is a caveat or addendum that adjusts this 'any spell' to actually be any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
So to sum up, the general rule which is almost always followed that you can cast only spells with a M (material component) is superceded by the specific rule mentioned here in the feat that has a set of specific conditions.
Since I am going by only what is written in the feat... that I can cast any spell... this includes spells with a M (material component)... it is not written that they are exempt... the only conditions are those that the feat mentions... having artisan's tools and the spell having INT for its spellcasting ability.
The general rule you guys are still trying to apply as some overall universal rule that will still affect this specific rule... actually won't supercede it.
The rule is that specific rules are followed instead of general rules, so for this particular instance you can use the focus to cast spells that don't require M (material components) so long as they use INT for their spellcasting ability.
This is not my interpretation or twisting of the rules. It is just the rules as they are written and applied by all. All who follow them that is. Anyone is free to homebrew or nerf rules as they see fit and what makes sense to them. Everyone in the world can do this and have a general rule beat specific one. But the rules of the game are quite clear that a specific rule beats a general rule.
Even if it doesn't make sense, even if it goes against what is the norm, whether it allows for strange things to happen, all this is irrelevant.
Specific beats general.
You are still free to change any rules and apply or not apply them as you see fit. But ignoring or somehow trying to still have a general rule beat a specific rule and claim it doesn't or that is compliments it when I have pointed out how it doesn't is not following RAW.
RAW is not interpreting or assuming or anything else, it is simply going by what is written.
And anyone can read what the text for the feat says.
The line "you can use ... as a spellcasting focus" is like a natural weapon saying "you can use ... to make attacks."
And saying "that means I can cast non-material component spells with this focus," is like saying "I can use the natural weapon to make spell attacks."
It is specific beats general, but the specific is not what you are saying it is. It specifically changes what is a spellcasting focus for you (thus "you can use as a spellcasting focus" being the correct way to express that as evidenced by every spellcasting feature that can use a focus using exactly the same wording). It does not change when a spellcasting focus can be used (for an example of that see artificer).
it does allow me to use artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus, you are correct there.
But it also states what I can do with that focus.
It says I can cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Magic missile from the wizard spell list counts as any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Therefore by RAW I can cast it with this feat.
Then a cleric can cast cure wounds while holding a shield (with holy symbol) and weapon because "You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells."
And that is no different between that and "you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability," is what can be used as a focus and what spells can use that focus.
So according to you and your argument: 100% of spellcasting classes can cast any non-material component spell they know from that class using a spellcasting focus. And the rules for material components are just flavor and not actually necessary.
Not at all what I'm saying.
I am still going to supply the V and S required by any spells that I cast because that is required by the rules.
And if there is a specific rule that allows something then there is a specific rule that allows something.
I am not changing the wording of the feat I mentioned, adding or subtracting anything, and most importantly not trying to interpret or impose any ideas of how I think the game or rules should work. I am simply going by what the feat says as written.
I happen to agree with the common sense idea that you don't need a focus (or components pouch) to cast spells that don't require M.
But once again we circle back to each person's opinion vs. RAW.
The feat says:
...artisan's tools...
...any spell...
...INT as its spellcasting ability...
No matter how many people weigh in and how many times they say it means spells that require M... it simply doesn't say that.
It does say:
...artisan's tools...
...any spell...
...INT as its spellcasting ability...
I think we're done here. Everyone is stuck on RAI, their personal opinions, or whatever else.
But RAW is RAW.
Incidently there is no rule posted anywhere in the spellcasting section that states you CAN or CANNOT use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't require one.
You just have to supply the other requirements.
Logic might suggest you CAN or CANNOT do this, but there is no rule addressing it.
Again to be clear, if a spell require any combination of V,S,M you have to supply those.
For example Magic Missile only requires V.S so you have to supply V,S. Nothing addresses whether you can supply V,S,M if you wish.
I cut out all the parts that I'm not arguing against.
So you are of the opinion that every spellcasting class can cast every spell they learn via that class, regardless of whether or not it requires a focus or an empty hand, with their hands full as long as they are holding their focus.
Because every spellcasting class uses the same wording for spellcasting focuses as this feat.
RAW is RAW. The problem is that the RAW has 2 interpretations and only 1 doesn't ignore other rules and is RAI.
The way rules usually work is that if they say you can do something under a specific circumstance, then they don't need to list all the circumstances that it doesn't apply to.
The rules for somatic components say you need an empty hand (a hand holding a focus is not empty).
The rules for material components say you can use a focus instead of the material, and don't need the hand with the material/focus to be empty to perform somatic component.
These are the rules that DO state when you CAN and CANNOT use a focus. And they have been clarified in the SAC to mean exactly what they say (using cleric (which uses the same wording as the feat) as an example).
The problem basically comes down to some vagueness in the English language.
I really don't see where the confusion is. The (errata'ed) artificer class has specific text telling you that M components are added to every spell. That wording is absent from this feat.
If the feat is intended to work as Brian_Avery suggests, a corresponding errata is in order.
If you're going to ignore stuff I'm saying and make up what I am saying and such I can't help you. You are free to live in whatever fantasy land wins you this argument.
I have always maintained the rules and never once said you could cast spells that require S with out a free hand and other such things.
This was never about that, I have 2 hands, 1 is free and the other is using a focus. This covers all the bases and every type of situation I can imagine ever needing for the casting of a spell, whether is has S or M or S and M.
Again, this was never the issue or argument.
And regardless of what other classes or rules say anywhere else (cleric or not) you follow all the general rules all the time... except for when a specific one contradicts it. Then you go by the specific.
This feat creates a unique and specific RAW scenario where it simply says:
...artisan tools for a focus...
...any spell...
...INT as its spellcasting ability...
Because someone has this feat the specific rules mentioned herein supercede and trump any general rule, even the one that says you use a focus to cast M spells, if that is indeed what is written. Without adding anything or subtracting anything, and especially without interpreting anyone's individual ideas about what is meant or intended, no matter how obvious it might seem.
RAW (rules as written) means just that we go by what is written. Not adjusting that by any normal, general rules that usually apply. Just what is written in the feat.
...artisan tools as a focus...
...any spell...
...INT as its spellcasting focus...
The whole reason and the thing that is a sticking point for many is that when they say any spell they don't say except for concentration, or except for rituals, or even except for spells without M.
This creates the odd and crazy circumstance of being able to cast any spell, even those that don't have any M, with a focus.
I am not suggesting this as an alternative to what is normally needed. You would still need to supply the V and S and be able to do so regularly. Needing to speak for the V and have a free hand for the S. This just allows you to also add using a focus when one isn't needed.
Other classes don't get to automatically do anything similar. Not unless they also have a feat or feature, perhaps even a magic item, anything within the rules that allow them to do so.
I have a feat that specifically allows me to do what I am proposing, nothing more, nothing less.
It's there for all the world to read. If they stick to RAW it's undeniable and absolute. If you want to stray into the realms of RAI or personal interpretation, have at it.
I was only ever interested in the RAW and any RAW that I might not of been aware of. I couldn't find anything to contradict the RAW of what I posted.
No one has been able to point out any RAW that contradicts the RAW I've posted. There has been a lot of RAI and individual opinions and ideas but nothing that is concrete RAW.
@Brian_Avery, You're correct. Since sorcerer class has CHA enlisted as spell-casting ability, artisans' tools can not be used to cast spells that do not have INT specified as spell-casting ability.
But, when you take the 'Artificer Initiate' feat, you get to choose a cantrip and a level 1 spell from artificer's spell list and these spells use INT as spell-casting ability. So as a sorcerer, you can only cast the cantrip and the level 1 spell using the artisan's tools.
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Haven't people repeatedly in this thread pointed to the spell component rules and the spell focus rules for other classes that work explicitly contrary to what you're saying?
The component rules are clear for what is required to cast a spell with an S component (and no M component): a free hand. The other spellcasting features tell you that they allow use of various focuses "for your [class] spells." The artificer class even has text telling you that it adds M components to spell without them for that class. The artificer initiate feat is entirely consistent with the setup of those rules (and missing the added M components) meaning that it makes tools work like other focuses -- and not like an Artificier's Tools Required focus.
Right. Well. Seems like there is only 1 person that disagrees with the RAW and refuses to address any of the multiple rules and examples that oppose their argument, and you can't argue about rules with people who don't read them.
So I'm done arguing whether the somatic and material component rules serve a purpose or just "focus go brr." I had to take a half year mental health break from the forums from dealing with people like this...