I tried to google and search on the forums, but couldn't find an answer that was identical to the situation I was in.
How do the extra attacks work if you have a flail in one hand and a shortsword in the other. I know that you can make an attack with the flail and then for your bonus action, you can attack with your shortsword without adding a damage modifier.
My question is if my player has two attack, or just wanted to attack with the weapon in my offhand for his action (or lets say the character is ambidextrous if that matters), could he attack with main hand and off hand with his extra attack and receive the damage modifier or could he only attack with the main hand?
And secondly if he has a flail in his main hand and a shortsword in the other, could he make a shortsword attack with his action and have the damage modifier?
Both RAW and RAI can apply, looking for more of a consensus with rules as well as what makes sense.
Side Question: Can you only make an offhand attack as a bonus action if you have the two weapon fighting style? Otherwise you can't attack with an offhand?
I have always seen it as, "You designate which is your main hand weapon, your extra attacks are made with that weapon, and bonus attack is made with the other." however I could see a character who has a custom feat for ambidexterity or even the two weapon fighting feat having the option to designate each turn which weapon (s)he is counting as the mainhand weapon, I don't think this would break anything.
There's no such thing as a main hand and off hand.
The Extra Attack feature places no restrictions on which hands or weapons you use. If you want to use a different weapon or a different hand for each attack, you can.
The Two-Weapon Fighting rule doesn't care which hand you used to attack with a light weapon, as long as you make the bonus attack with the other hand.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
You could switch which weapon you use for your Attack action and which you use for your bonus action each round if you wanted to. In practice this rarely matters.
Indeed, if you have an extra attack feature you could use your two attacks to strike once with each hand (nothing says all the attacks in an Attack action must be made with the same weapon/hand), then you could make your bonus attack with either hand.
Note, getting the bonus attack for dual wielding always requires that *both* weapons have the light property, which a flail does not. Having the Dual Wielder feat removes that requirement for light weapons.
Aright Squigs, you just hit on a trigger for me.....like I'm already raging and I haven't finished the first sentence...
I wrote in to WoTC about 5 years ago, emailed them to be exact, and asked a similar type of question and the response I got was mind blowing. The question was: Why do monks need two weapon fighting if they have been trained to use their whole body as a weapon? The discourse between WoTC and me isn't really the matter at hand for you, so I'll summarize what they finally told me:
You attack with your main hand, and your extra attack is made with your main hand, and your extra, extra attack is made with your main hand, etc.
Your off-hand is your dual weapon attack.
Main hand = Flail, Off-hand = Shortsword, you're only trained how to main hand that flail and off-hand that shortsword. No matter your ambidexterity, two weapon fighting prowess, or any other factor.
I'm going to walk away slowly from this thread now before I have a meltdown.
How do the extra attacks work if you have a flail in one hand and a shortsword in the other. I know that you can make an attack with the flail and then for your bonus action, you can attack with your shortsword without adding a damage modifier.
My question is if my player has two attack, or just wanted to attack with the weapon in my offhand for his action (or lets say the character is ambidextrous if that matters), could he attack with main hand and off hand with his extra attack and receive the damage modifier or could he only attack with the main hand?
First, you can only use a bonus action to get an extra attack via two weapon fighting if both weapons are light (flail is not) OR you have the Dual Wielder feat which makes it so neither weapon has to be light.
But, to the question - if you have the Extra Attack feature, or just want to use the short sword for your regular attack, yes you can use the short sword for one or both of your standard attacks and you can add your damage modifier to them.
Now if after using your short sword for an attack, you wish to do a bonus action attack using Two Weapon Fighting, you will need to use a different weapon, so if your other weapon is a flail, you will need to have the Dual Wielder feat since that's not a light weapon. For the bonus attack you would not get a damage bonus.
And secondly if he has a flail in his main hand and a shortsword in the other, could he make a shortsword attack with his action and have the damage modifier?
Yes.
Side Question: Can you only make an offhand attack as a bonus action if you have the two weapon fighting style? Otherwise you can't attack with an offhand?
No, anyone using two light weapons (or non light weapons with Dual Wielder feat) can use Two Weapon Fighting to execute a bonus action attack with the weapon not used in their last regular attack.
To sum up -
Anyone can use Two weapon fighting. Two Weapon fighting means using 2 light weapons and allows you to use a bonus action to attack with no damage bonus with the weapon you didn't attack with as a part of your normal attack action.
Two-weapon fighting style - modifies the above to allow you to apply a damage bonus to the bonus action attack.
Dual Wielder Feat - Allows two weapon fighting even when one or both weapons aren't light (but are still one handers obviously).
Also - the terms "main hand" and "off hand" don't have any meaning in terms of game mechanics in 5th edition - handiness is not a thing you need to worry about.
1. The Bonus Action attack can only be done if your Main Action is the Attack action. You can however, use them in any order.
2. The weapons used for your Main Action Attack and Bonus Action Attack must be Light one-handed weapons.
Note: the Dual Wielder feat removes the restriction on the weapons being Light. They must still be one-handed though.
3. The Bonus Action attack will not benefit from Strength or Dexterity modifiers to the damage roll.
Note: various classes offer a Two-Weapon FightingStyle that removes this restriction thus allowing you to add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll.
-- -- --
Since you have Flail and Shortsword and Extra Attack here are your attacking options:
If you have neither the Dual Wielder Feat or Two Weapon Fighting style:
Main Action: You can attack once with Flail and once with Shortsword, twice with Shortsword or twice with Flail.
You cannot make a bonus action attack because you need a light weapon in either hand which you do not.
If you have the Dual Wielder Feat but not Two Weapon Fighting style:
Main Action: You can attack once with Flail and once with Shortsword, twice with Shortsword or twice with Flail.
If you attacked as your main action attacks with only Flail you can make a bonus attack with the Shortsword. If you attacked as your main action attacks with only Shortsword you can make a bonus attack with the Flail. The bonus action attack does not benefit from any ability score modifers to damage roll.
If you have don't have the Dual Wielder Feat but do have Two Weapon Fighting style:
Main Action: You can attack once with Flail and once with Shortsword, twice with Shortsword or twice with Flail.
You cannot make a bonus action attack because you need a light weapon in either hand which you do not.
If you have both the Dual Wielder Feat and Two Weapon Fighting style:
Main Action: You can attack once with Flail and once with Shortsword, twice with Shortsword or twice with Flail.
If you attacked as your main action attacks with only Flail you can make a bonus attack with the Shortsword. If you attacked as your main action attacks with only Shortsword you can make a bonus attack with the Flail. The bonus action attack does benefit from any ability score modifers to damage roll just like any main attack.
Yes, even without the Two Weapon Fighting style (that just makes it so that your ability score bonus is added to the bonus action attack as normal).
Extra Attack lets you attack twice with the Attack action.
the Two-Weapon Fighting bonus action lets you make a third attack as a bonus action after the Attack action, if you're using Light weapons, but your ability score modifier won't be added to this attack's damage.
The Dual Wielder feat removes the Light weapon requirement.
The Two-Weapon Fighting Style lets you add your ability score modifier to that bonus action attack like a normal attack.
If you have both the Dual Wielder Feat and Two Weapon Fighting style and extra attack
can you now attack 3 times?
Extra Attack allows for 2 attacks per Attack Action. Two Weapon Fighting allows for 1 attack as a Bonus Action after taking the Attack Action. (With a light weapon)
No feats or features are required to achieve 3 attacks per round, however, they do make it easier.
I need to add some further confusion and questions to this thread, hoping that I can get some feedback. I'm playing a barbarian with the Dual Wield feat with two 1 handed battleaxes. I've been playing (without contest by DM and other learned players) my main attack with my str modifier added to damage and my second as a bonus action with no str modifier. As a barb I can frenzy, but what would be the benefit of using Frenzy when it seemingly does the exact same thing as my bonus attack action? To me it seems like a lose as I'd now have to deal with exhaustion where I currently don't.
I've now hit level 5 and get an actual second attack; so now I get 2 main attacks with added str modifier and 1 bonus action without, for a total of 3 attacks. How would frenzy work here, the same as above, and there's no point to use it as I'm currently set up?
My plan is to multi-class into fighter (or wait until next level I can gain a feat) and take Two Weapon Fighting. From what I understand, doing this will give me my str modifier on my bonus (or frenzy?) attack. Am I correct in this assumption?
Finally; do I have this all wrong, all right, or partially? One of our group members and the DM seems to think I'll max out at 3 attacks regardless of using frenzy. Is this the case or am I wrong and I get further 'bonus' or added attacks while frenzying? Hope to find some clarity.
I need to add some further confusion and questions to this thread, hoping that I can get some feedback. I'm playing a barbarian with the Dual Wield feat with two 1 handed battleaxes. I've been playing (without contest by DM and other learned players) my main attack with my str modifier added to damage and my second as a bonus action with no str modifier. As a barb I can frenzy, but what would be the benefit of using Frenzy when it seemingly does the exact same thing as my bonus attack action? To me it seems like a lose as I'd now have to deal with exhaustion where I currently don't.
I've now hit level 5 and get an actual second attack; so now I get 2 main attacks with added str modifier and 1 bonus action without, for a total of 3 attacks. How would frenzy work here, the same as above, and there's no point to use it as I'm currently set up?
My plan is to multi-class into fighter (or wait until next level I can gain a feat) and take Two Weapon Fighting. From what I understand, doing this will give me my str modifier on my bonus (or frenzy?) attack. Am I correct in this assumption?
Finally; do I have this all wrong, all right, or partially? One of our group members and the DM seems to think I'll max out at 3 attacks regardless of using frenzy. Is this the case or am I wrong and I get further 'bonus' or added attacks while frenzying? Hope to find some clarity.
You get Frenzy as a Berserker Barbarian; this lets you make a single melee attack as a bonus action while raging. If you have Dual Wield feat and dual-wield battleaxes, you're already using your bonus action to make attacks (if without the STR modifier to damage), so no need for Frenzy at all. Having the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style would let you add the STR modifier to your damage on the bonus action attack without using Frenzy. You'll have to decide if it's worth delaying your Barbarian progression in order to get the extra +STR to 1 attack per turn.
In any case, everyone gets at most 1 bonus action per turn. So they're right, you can make at most 3 attacks per turn as you are now.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
As a barb I can frenzy, but what would be the benefit of using Frenzy when it seemingly does the exact same thing as my bonus attack action? To me it seems like a lose as I'd now have to deal with exhaustion where I currently don't.
The benefit is that the Frenzy bonus action can be done with any of your weapon and will add your Strenght modifier to the damage. If you wield a magic battleaxe and a mundane one, witn Frenzy you can attack 3 times with the magic battleaxe where with Two-Weapon Fighting, one of the 3 attack will have to be performed with the mundane one.
I need to add some further confusion and questions to this thread, hoping that I can get some feedback. I'm playing a barbarian with the Dual Wield feat with two 1 handed battleaxes. I've been playing (without contest by DM and other learned players) my main attack with my str modifier added to damage and my second as a bonus action with no str modifier. As a barb I can frenzy, but what would be the benefit of using Frenzy when it seemingly does the exact same thing as my bonus attack action? To me it seems like a lose as I'd now have to deal with exhaustion where I currently don't.
I've now hit level 5 and get an actual second attack; so now I get 2 main attacks with added str modifier and 1 bonus action without, for a total of 3 attacks. How would frenzy work here, the same as above, and there's no point to use it as I'm currently set up?
My plan is to multi-class into fighter (or wait until next level I can gain a feat) and take Two Weapon Fighting. From what I understand, doing this will give me my str modifier on my bonus (or frenzy?) attack. Am I correct in this assumption?
Finally; do I have this all wrong, all right, or partially? One of our group members and the DM seems to think I'll max out at 3 attacks regardless of using frenzy. Is this the case or am I wrong and I get further 'bonus' or added attacks while frenzying? Hope to find some clarity.
You get Frenzy as a Berserker Barbarian; this lets you make a single melee attack as a bonus action while raging. If you have Dual Wield feat and dual-wield battleaxes, you're already using your bonus action to make attacks (if without the STR modifier to damage), so no need for Frenzy at all. Having the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style would let you add the STR modifier to your damage on the bonus action attack without using Frenzy. You'll have to decide if it's worth delaying your Barbarian progression in order to get the extra +STR to 1 attack per turn.
In any case, everyone gets at most 1 bonus action per turn. So they're right, you can make at most 3 attacks per turn as you are now.
Speaking as someone who has a barbarian with this exact 'dual wielding battleaxes' concept -- there are much better feats you can take than going for the TWF fighting style just to get a mild damage boost every third-ish attack: Slasher, Mobile, Alert, Sentinel etc
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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I tried to google and search on the forums, but couldn't find an answer that was identical to the situation I was in.
How do the extra attacks work if you have a flail in one hand and a shortsword in the other. I know that you can make an attack with the flail and then for your bonus action, you can attack with your shortsword without adding a damage modifier.
My question is if my player has two attack, or just wanted to attack with the weapon in my offhand for his action (or lets say the character is ambidextrous if that matters), could he attack with main hand and off hand with his extra attack and receive the damage modifier or could he only attack with the main hand?
And secondly if he has a flail in his main hand and a shortsword in the other, could he make a shortsword attack with his action and have the damage modifier?
Both RAW and RAI can apply, looking for more of a consensus with rules as well as what makes sense.
Side Question: Can you only make an offhand attack as a bonus action if you have the two weapon fighting style? Otherwise you can't attack with an offhand?
Published Subclasses
I have always seen it as, "You designate which is your main hand weapon, your extra attacks are made with that weapon, and bonus attack is made with the other." however I could see a character who has a custom feat for ambidexterity or even the two weapon fighting feat having the option to designate each turn which weapon (s)he is counting as the mainhand weapon, I don't think this would break anything.
There's no such thing as a main hand and off hand.
The Extra Attack feature places no restrictions on which hands or weapons you use. If you want to use a different weapon or a different hand for each attack, you can.
The Two-Weapon Fighting rule doesn't care which hand you used to attack with a light weapon, as long as you make the bonus attack with the other hand.
You could switch which weapon you use for your Attack action and which you use for your bonus action each round if you wanted to. In practice this rarely matters.
Indeed, if you have an extra attack feature you could use your two attacks to strike once with each hand (nothing says all the attacks in an Attack action must be made with the same weapon/hand), then you could make your bonus attack with either hand.
Note, getting the bonus attack for dual wielding always requires that *both* weapons have the light property, which a flail does not. Having the Dual Wielder feat removes that requirement for light weapons.
Aright Squigs, you just hit on a trigger for me.....like I'm already raging and I haven't finished the first sentence...
I wrote in to WoTC about 5 years ago, emailed them to be exact, and asked a similar type of question and the response I got was mind blowing. The question was: Why do monks need two weapon fighting if they have been trained to use their whole body as a weapon? The discourse between WoTC and me isn't really the matter at hand for you, so I'll summarize what they finally told me:
Main hand = Flail, Off-hand = Shortsword, you're only trained how to main hand that flail and off-hand that shortsword. No matter your ambidexterity, two weapon fighting prowess, or any other factor.
I'm going to walk away slowly from this thread now before I have a meltdown.
First, you can only use a bonus action to get an extra attack via two weapon fighting if both weapons are light (flail is not) OR you have the Dual Wielder feat which makes it so neither weapon has to be light.
But, to the question - if you have the Extra Attack feature, or just want to use the short sword for your regular attack, yes you can use the short sword for one or both of your standard attacks and you can add your damage modifier to them.
Now if after using your short sword for an attack, you wish to do a bonus action attack using Two Weapon Fighting, you will need to use a different weapon, so if your other weapon is a flail, you will need to have the Dual Wielder feat since that's not a light weapon. For the bonus attack you would not get a damage bonus.
Yes.
No, anyone using two light weapons (or non light weapons with Dual Wielder feat) can use Two Weapon Fighting to execute a bonus action attack with the weapon not used in their last regular attack.
To sum up -
Anyone can use Two weapon fighting. Two Weapon fighting means using 2 light weapons and allows you to use a bonus action to attack with no damage bonus with the weapon you didn't attack with as a part of your normal attack action.
Two-weapon fighting style - modifies the above to allow you to apply a damage bonus to the bonus action attack.
Dual Wielder Feat - Allows two weapon fighting even when one or both weapons aren't light (but are still one handers obviously).
Also - the terms "main hand" and "off hand" don't have any meaning in terms of game mechanics in 5th edition - handiness is not a thing you need to worry about.
You are free to choose which weapon you attack with when making main attacks, extra attacks and bonus action attacks. This is confirmed in Sage Advice by Jeremy Crawford here: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/01/30/if-wielding-a-sword-in-each-hand-can-you-decide-what-to-main-action-attack/
There are three restrictions:
1. The Bonus Action attack can only be done if your Main Action is the Attack action. You can however, use them in any order.
2. The weapons used for your Main Action Attack and Bonus Action Attack must be Light one-handed weapons.
Note: the Dual Wielder feat removes the restriction on the weapons being Light. They must still be one-handed though.
3. The Bonus Action attack will not benefit from Strength or Dexterity modifiers to the damage roll.
Note: various classes offer a Two-Weapon Fighting Style that removes this restriction thus allowing you to add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll.
-- -- --
Since you have Flail and Shortsword and Extra Attack here are your attacking options:
If you have neither the Dual Wielder Feat or Two Weapon Fighting style:
Main Action: You can attack once with Flail and once with Shortsword, twice with Shortsword or twice with Flail.
You cannot make a bonus action attack because you need a light weapon in either hand which you do not.
If you have the Dual Wielder Feat but not Two Weapon Fighting style:
Main Action: You can attack once with Flail and once with Shortsword, twice with Shortsword or twice with Flail.
If you attacked as your main action attacks with only Flail you can make a bonus attack with the Shortsword. If you attacked as your main action attacks with only Shortsword you can make a bonus attack with the Flail. The bonus action attack does not benefit from any ability score modifers to damage roll.
If you have don't have the Dual Wielder Feat but do have Two Weapon Fighting style:
Main Action: You can attack once with Flail and once with Shortsword, twice with Shortsword or twice with Flail.
You cannot make a bonus action attack because you need a light weapon in either hand which you do not.
If you have both the Dual Wielder Feat and Two Weapon Fighting style:
Main Action: You can attack once with Flail and once with Shortsword, twice with Shortsword or twice with Flail.
If you attacked as your main action attacks with only Flail you can make a bonus attack with the Shortsword. If you attacked as your main action attacks with only Shortsword you can make a bonus attack with the Flail. The bonus action attack does benefit from any ability score modifers to damage roll just like any main attack.
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If you have both the Dual Wielder Feat and Two Weapon Fighting style and extra attack
can you now attack 3 times?
Yes, even without the Two Weapon Fighting style (that just makes it so that your ability score bonus is added to the bonus action attack as normal).
Extra Attack lets you attack twice with the Attack action.
the Two-Weapon Fighting bonus action lets you make a third attack as a bonus action after the Attack action, if you're using Light weapons, but your ability score modifier won't be added to this attack's damage.
The Dual Wielder feat removes the Light weapon requirement.
The Two-Weapon Fighting Style lets you add your ability score modifier to that bonus action attack like a normal attack.
Make sense?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Extra Attack allows for 2 attacks per Attack Action.
Two Weapon Fighting allows for 1 attack as a Bonus Action after taking the Attack Action. (With a light weapon)
No feats or features are required to achieve 3 attacks per round, however, they do make it easier.
but i need Dual wielder if the second weapon is not light? aka a rapier which is a finesse weapon.
Correct.
The Scimitar and Short Sword are both finesse options that would not require the Dual Wielder feat, but they are d6, rather than d8.
thank you I have been trying to clear this up for a while.
Rapier is a finesse and is d8
But a Rapier is not light, so you would need Dual Wielder.
Yeah, sometimes easy to forget that two weapon Fighting is just a default option for all characters. Just requires the weapons be light though.
I got quotes!
I need to add some further confusion and questions to this thread, hoping that I can get some feedback. I'm playing a barbarian with the Dual Wield feat with two 1 handed battleaxes. I've been playing (without contest by DM and other learned players) my main attack with my str modifier added to damage and my second as a bonus action with no str modifier. As a barb I can frenzy, but what would be the benefit of using Frenzy when it seemingly does the exact same thing as my bonus attack action? To me it seems like a lose as I'd now have to deal with exhaustion where I currently don't.
I've now hit level 5 and get an actual second attack; so now I get 2 main attacks with added str modifier and 1 bonus action without, for a total of 3 attacks. How would frenzy work here, the same as above, and there's no point to use it as I'm currently set up?
My plan is to multi-class into fighter (or wait until next level I can gain a feat) and take Two Weapon Fighting. From what I understand, doing this will give me my str modifier on my bonus (or frenzy?) attack. Am I correct in this assumption?
Finally; do I have this all wrong, all right, or partially? One of our group members and the DM seems to think I'll max out at 3 attacks regardless of using frenzy. Is this the case or am I wrong and I get further 'bonus' or added attacks while frenzying? Hope to find some clarity.
You get Frenzy as a Berserker Barbarian; this lets you make a single melee attack as a bonus action while raging. If you have Dual Wield feat and dual-wield battleaxes, you're already using your bonus action to make attacks (if without the STR modifier to damage), so no need for Frenzy at all. Having the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style would let you add the STR modifier to your damage on the bonus action attack without using Frenzy. You'll have to decide if it's worth delaying your Barbarian progression in order to get the extra +STR to 1 attack per turn.
In any case, everyone gets at most 1 bonus action per turn. So they're right, you can make at most 3 attacks per turn as you are now.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
The benefit is that the Frenzy bonus action can be done with any of your weapon and will add your Strenght modifier to the damage. If you wield a magic battleaxe and a mundane one, witn Frenzy you can attack 3 times with the magic battleaxe where with Two-Weapon Fighting, one of the 3 attack will have to be performed with the mundane one.
Speaking as someone who has a barbarian with this exact 'dual wielding battleaxes' concept -- there are much better feats you can take than going for the TWF fighting style just to get a mild damage boost every third-ish attack: Slasher, Mobile, Alert, Sentinel etc
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)