Hey, everyone! I'm pretty sure this is my first post, so I'm hoping it goes well!
This question came about with the 'Sleet Storm' spell, which causes a pretty large area to become heavily obscured. As we understand it, because creatures in this heavily obscured cylinder become 'blinded,' all attacks made against them would be made with advantage.
However, when making ranged attacks into an area that's heavily obscured, your ranged attacks would have disadvantage because you are firing into a heavily obscured area (so you would also suffer from the 'blinded' rule).
So if I'm firing into the sleet storm, are my ranged attacks against a heavily obscured target going to be made with advantage (per the 'blinded' rule) or with disadvantage (per the 'blinded' rule)?
Thanks!
P.S.: If I'm able to make quick links to any rules I've made, instead of just putting them in single quotes, please let me know how so I can do that going forward!
A creature trying to hit a target that is inside a heavily obscured area would have neither advantage or disadvantage. Both the creature and the target are, in effect, blinded, so that creature would have advantage (because the target is blinded) and disadvantage (because the creature is blinded) at the same time.
both is equally true I guess; those looking from within can't see due to the water splashing in their eyes, those looking from without can barely make out targets in the storm. From the compendium:
A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blindedcondition when trying to see something in that area.
So I'd rule it to work both ways.
Edit: as Filcat says, this would mean that they cancel each other out for those from outside to shoot in, but not from the ones from within shooting out.
Thanks for clarifying, filcat! We were kind of assuming they would just cancel each other out, but I couldn't find a section that details what happens when a roll has both advantage and disadvantage at the same time.
If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage.
Them the only remaining complication is that if the shooter can't see the target at all then they might not be aiming in the correct place to hit them anyway. The mechanics for that are never really made clear. The same is the case for shooting at invisible targets from range. I haven't quite settled on how to handle those situations myself.
1a) Creature is heavily obscured. 1b) Creature is invisible. 1c) Attacker fires into a heavily obscured area. (would be considered 1a rephrased from the attacker perspective.)
All of these states are the same thing mechanically equaling that the attacker is/can be considered blinded, which gives disadvantage to the attacker.
2a) If the creature is blinded, attacker has advantage. 2b) If the creature is not blinded, normal attack roll.
Then we cancel out advantage/disadvantage until we get to the end. 1c + 2b = the attack is rolled at disadvantage, 1a + 2a = normal attack roll, etc.
It's generally assumed you know the location of any creature which isn't trying to be Stealthy. This could be: footstep, foot prints, talking, rustling of gear, disturbing of bushes, etc...
IF someone is Heavily Obscured hey have Advantage on Stealth checks. †IF someone is Lightly Obscured anyone trying to spot them has DisAdvantage on their Perception checks using sight, I assume this carries over to Heavily Obscured. https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/phb/adventuring#VisionandLight The basic assumption is unless the invisible target is trying to be Stealthy, the shooter knows they are somewhere within their 5', and shoot at where they think they are. IF they can attack with Disadvantage and still hit their AC...
†Edited as per InquisitiveCoder, Thank you I mistaking the DisAdvantage to detection based on Vision with Advantage to Stealth.
It's generally assumed you know the location of any creature which isn't trying to be Stealthy. This could be: footstep, foot prints, talking, rustling of gear, disturbing of bushes, etc...
IF someone is Heavily Obscured hey have Advantage on Stealth checks. The basic assumption is unless the invisible target is trying to be Stealthy, the shooter knows they are somewhere within their 5', and shoot at where they think they are. IF they can attack with Disadvantage and still hit their AC...
If you're directing that towards my post: I always assume they're trying to be sneaky and I play it the same on both sides of the screen.
I know it can be argued, as you just pointed out, that this is not always true, but I have found that my players have never had a problem with the cat and mouse game it presents.
DMThac0, you hadn't posted yet when I started writing. I was trying to help RegentCorreon's question about shooting at invisible creatures which aren't blinded.
You have a better way of describing the mechanics, but the Dev have always been very GM Fiat on "what's hidden" or not.
I assume anyone trying to be stealthy, unless they are attack in combat.
I think a good example is the party if fighting an Invisible Stalker. Once the stalker starts attacking it's not trying to be stealthy.
You're not forced to use sight to find a hidden creature so the penalties to Perception checks when looking into obscured areas is rarely relevant for noticing creatures; you can still use your ears. After all, heavy armor doesn't make you easier to spot, it makes you easier to hear.
Being stealthy requires effort: moving slowly out of combat, an action in combat. If the players haven't paid the price, they shouldn't get the benefits of stealth.
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Hey, everyone! I'm pretty sure this is my first post, so I'm hoping it goes well!
This question came about with the 'Sleet Storm' spell, which causes a pretty large area to become heavily obscured. As we understand it, because creatures in this heavily obscured cylinder become 'blinded,' all attacks made against them would be made with advantage.
However, when making ranged attacks into an area that's heavily obscured, your ranged attacks would have disadvantage because you are firing into a heavily obscured area (so you would also suffer from the 'blinded' rule).
So if I'm firing into the sleet storm, are my ranged attacks against a heavily obscured target going to be made with advantage (per the 'blinded' rule) or with disadvantage (per the 'blinded' rule)?
Thanks!
P.S.: If I'm able to make quick links to any rules I've made, instead of just putting them in single quotes, please let me know how so I can do that going forward!
A creature trying to hit a target that is inside a heavily obscured area would have neither advantage or disadvantage. Both the creature and the target are, in effect, blinded, so that creature would have advantage (because the target is blinded) and disadvantage (because the creature is blinded) at the same time.
Hi SiNNiX,
both is equally true I guess; those looking from within can't see due to the water splashing in their eyes, those looking from without can barely make out targets in the storm. From the compendium:
So I'd rule it to work both ways.
Edit: as Filcat says, this would mean that they cancel each other out for those from outside to shoot in, but not from the ones from within shooting out.
Hope that helps :)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Thanks for clarifying, filcat! We were kind of assuming they would just cancel each other out, but I couldn't find a section that details what happens when a roll has both advantage and disadvantage at the same time.
And thanks to RAJdeBoer, too!
If you look in the Basic Rules: https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#AdvantageandDisadvantage
Them the only remaining complication is that if the shooter can't see the target at all then they might not be aiming in the correct place to hit them anyway. The mechanics for that are never really made clear. The same is the case for shooting at invisible targets from range. I haven't quite settled on how to handle those situations myself.
1a) Creature is heavily obscured.
1b) Creature is invisible.
1c) Attacker fires into a heavily obscured area. (would be considered 1a rephrased from the attacker perspective.)
All of these states are the same thing mechanically equaling that the attacker is/can be considered blinded, which gives disadvantage to the attacker.
2a) If the creature is blinded, attacker has advantage.
2b) If the creature is not blinded, normal attack roll.
Then we cancel out advantage/disadvantage until we get to the end. 1c + 2b = the attack is rolled at disadvantage, 1a + 2a = normal attack roll, etc.
That is GM fiat.
It's generally assumed you know the location of any creature which isn't trying to be Stealthy.
This could be: footstep, foot prints, talking, rustling of gear, disturbing of bushes, etc...
IF someone is Heavily Obscured hey have Advantage on Stealth checks.
†IF someone is Lightly Obscured anyone trying to spot them has DisAdvantage on their Perception checks using sight, I assume this carries over to Heavily Obscured. https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/phb/adventuring#VisionandLightThe basic assumption is unless the invisible target is trying to be Stealthy, the shooter knows they are somewhere within their 5', and shoot at where they think they are. IF they can attack with Disadvantage and still hit their AC...
†Edited as per InquisitiveCoder, Thank you I mistaking the DisAdvantage to detection based on Vision with Advantage to Stealth.
If someone's heavily obscured they can try to hide. There's no advantage to Stealth checks for being heavily obscured.
If you're directing that towards my post: I always assume they're trying to be sneaky and I play it the same on both sides of the screen.
I know it can be argued, as you just pointed out, that this is not always true, but I have found that my players have never had a problem with the cat and mouse game it presents.
DMThac0, you hadn't posted yet when I started writing. I was trying to help RegentCorreon's question about shooting at invisible creatures which aren't blinded.
You have a better way of describing the mechanics, but the Dev have always been very GM Fiat on "what's hidden" or not.
I assume anyone trying to be stealthy, unless they are attack in combat.
I think a good example is the party if fighting an Invisible Stalker.
Once the stalker starts attacking it's not trying to be stealthy.
You're not forced to use sight to find a hidden creature so the penalties to Perception checks when looking into obscured areas is rarely relevant for noticing creatures; you can still use your ears. After all, heavy armor doesn't make you easier to spot, it makes you easier to hear.
Being stealthy requires effort: moving slowly out of combat, an action in combat. If the players haven't paid the price, they shouldn't get the benefits of stealth.