Premise: You're wielding two light weapons, one has the Nick property. For argument sake, Scimitar and Shortsword. You attack with the Scimitar (Nick weapon). This means you can attack with the Shortsword _during_ your Attack action due to the Scimitar's Light and Nick properties. So you do.
Contention: The Shortsword has been used during your Attack action, and is Light. Therefore: its Light property means you gain a BA attack you can use with the other weapon (Scimitar). You can only use Nick once, but the Light property's limitation is ONLY that you get 1 BA attack AND it has to be a different weapon. You're technically using Light twice, and Nick once. You're not violating Nick's once per turn rule, and Light isn't limited to once per turn. That seems to obey RAW, but might not obey RAI.
Questions: 1- Can you find a flaw in saying this obeys RAW? 2- Do you think it fits RAI? 3- Would you allow it?
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Nick preserves your bonus action, nothing more. It allows you to make the one attack you are given as part of the attack action. When your bonus action has rolled around, you've already made the attack granted as part of your attack action. You can use the bonus action for something else, but NOT another attack (unless you have the dual wielder feat)
2 - not allowed RAW, certainly not RAI. If it was RAI, dual wielder would not be necessary.
3 - Not a chance. If you want to use that bonus action for an attack, pick up the DW feat.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Interesting. I’ve been experimenting with a fighter/warlock build.
So from what has been explained, once i unlock a second attack, I can use by bonus action to apply hex, next hit once with my shortsword to apply vex, then hit with the scimitar for nick’s bonus attack, and finally hit with a full bonus attack thanks to my two weapon fighting style, all 3 hits triggering hex. Correct?
Interesting. I’ve been experimenting with a fighter/warlock build.
So from what has been explained, once i unlock a second attack, I can use by bonus action to apply hex, next hit once with my shortsword to apply vex, then hit with the scimitar for nick’s bonus attack, and finally hit with a full bonus attack thanks to my two weapon fighting style, all 3 hits triggering hex. Correct?
In effect yes, though your reasoning is flawed. The fighting style has nothing to do with how many attacks you get. You get two attacks from being a fighter, and your third attack is solely due to the Light and Nick properties. The fighting style would let you add your ability score bonus to the damage of that third attack, however. If you used your bonus action to cast Hex first, then yes, all three attacks would benefit from Hex.
Sounds right, yes. Base bladelock makes your pact weapon a focus, right? Because otherwise there's technically a bit of hand juggling since you need to cover the M component of Hex when you cast it, but otherwise yeah you're good for making three attack rolls during the Attack Action, including your Light attack.
My build has warcaster at level 4, so it should cover that, right?
That cover Somatic, not Material iirc. But I checked, they did make the weapon being a focus part of the core Pact of the Blade Invocation, so there's no technicalities around that combo for casting reqs.
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Yes, you can only make the Nick attack once per turn. And I said as much. And I also said that in my scenario, the Nick attack is not being made more than once in that turn.
The Light weapon attack is being made twice (once as a Nick, once as a Bonus Action). There doesn’t appear to be a limitation on this.
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Yes, you can only make the Nick attack once per turn. And I said as much. And I also said that in my scenario, the Nick attack is not being made more than once in that turn.
The Light weapon attack is being made twice (once as a Nick, once as a Bonus Action). There doesn’t appear to be a limitation on this.
As written, this isn’t breaking the Nick rule.
No, you can't make a Light weapon attack more than once per turn either (practically speaking only once per round). All Nick does is change the timing of the one attack granted by the Light property; it doesn't create a duplicate attack.
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Yes, you can only make the Nick attack once per turn. And I said as much. And I also said that in my scenario, the Nick attack is not being made more than once in that turn.
The Light weapon attack is being made twice (once as a Nick, once as a Bonus Action). There doesn’t appear to be a limitation on this.
As written, this isn’t breaking the Nick rule.
you don't understand...the nick attack uses the attack you get by making an attack with a weapon. You only get that once. Either once with nick, or once with your bonus action, but not both.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Yes, you can only make the Nick attack once per turn. And I said as much. And I also said that in my scenario, the Nick attack is not being made more than once in that turn.
The Light weapon attack is being made twice (once as a Nick, once as a Bonus Action). There doesn’t appear to be a limitation on this.
As written, this isn’t breaking the Nick rule.
you don't understand...the nick attack uses the attack you get by making an attack with a weapon. You only get that once. Either once with nick, or once with your bonus action, but not both.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Unless you have the two weapon fighting style, right?
The fighting style does nothing other than let you add your mod to the damage of the extra attack. if you have the DW feat, it does allow you an extra BA attack. It's granted by the feat, not the light property.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
To put this just a little differently, in case it helps this click:
Nick doesn't grant an attack at all. Nick attacks literally don't exist. It only changes the timing of the Light attack. So if you have 3 attacks with Light (2 Action, 1 Bonus Action) and the Nick property is active, you just move the Bonus Action attack to part of the Action. It's still the Light attack, not a Nick attack.
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Yes, you can only make the Nick attack once per turn. And I said as much. And I also said that in my scenario, the Nick attack is not being made more than once in that turn.
The Light weapon attack is being made twice (once as a Nick, once as a Bonus Action). There doesn’t appear to be a limitation on this.
As written, this isn’t breaking the Nick rule.
you don't understand...the nick attack uses the attack you get by making an attack with a weapon. You only get that once. Either once with nick, or once with your bonus action, but not both.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Unless you have the two weapon fighting style, right?
You might be thinking of the updated Dual Wielder Feat, not the Two Weapon Fighting Style. The Feat creates a separate Bonus Action option for attacking with any non two-handed melee weapon if you attacked with a Light weapon during your Attack Action. With the feat and Nick mastery, you can attack with a Light weapon, make your Nick attack as a part of the Attack Action, and then as a Bonus Action make another one-handed attack with a one-handed melee weapon aside from the one you made the first attack.
This debate about the Light + Nick + DW feature has already been covered in other threads, with great examples and interactions involving BA, as well as equipping and unequipping weapons:
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Yes, you can only make the Nick attack once per turn. And I said as much. And I also said that in my scenario, the Nick attack is not being made more than once in that turn.
The Light weapon attack is being made twice (once as a Nick, once as a Bonus Action). There doesn’t appear to be a limitation on this.
As written, this isn’t breaking the Nick rule.
you don't understand...the nick attack uses the attack you get by making an attack with a weapon. You only get that once. Either once with nick, or once with your bonus action, but not both.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
The problem you’re missing is the “once per turn” is only stated under Nick, and not under Light. Light limits things via the number of Bonus Actions you get… but if you’re not using your Bonus Actions for that attack, then you still have a Bonus Actions available to use in any way that you can use a Bonus Action. If Light meant to limit things to “once per turn” it should have said that. It doesn’t.
The result is that you can only use Nick to move your Light attack to your Attack action once per turn. That’s what it means for the limit to be listed under the Nick rule and not the Light rule (whether that’s the intent or not, that is the effect of putting the limitation under the Nick rule).
Once you do that, you still have a Bonus Action available. And the OTHER light weapon you used (the non-Nick one), whose special properties haven’t been used this round, says you can use your BA to attack with your other weapon. The only limit put upon your non-Nick weapon’s granted BA attack is: you only get one BA per turn. The Light says nothing other than that about how many times you can invoke this property per turn.
I heavily expect that the INTENT is what you’re saying… but you’re entirely wrong about how it is actually WRITTEN. If the intent is what we expect, then RAW should have put that limitation in the Light rule, and not just the Nick rule, or in a sidebar that clarified how the two rules interact. But as it is: the single use per turn is only specified by what Nick does, not by what Light does.
if you attack with two short swords. both of them have the Light property and grand you the right to use a Bonus Actiob to make an attack.. The limit here is NOT how many times the Light property can be used per round. The limit is that you only have one Bonus Action. So you have been granted this option twice… but you can only use it once — not because of the Light rule, but because of the Bonus Action rule.
When you substitute one of those shortswords for a Light Nick Weapon, you still are being granted two Bonus Action attacks, but Nick lets you (once per turn) move one of them to the attack action. This means you still have your Bonus Action available to use with your other granted attack.
No, you don’t; Nick changes the timing of the attack that would normally take place on your Bonus Action, it does not duplicate it. The Light property explicitly says you get one extra attack. Nick changes the timing of that one extra attack, it does not grant another one. This is clearly spelled out in the PHB, not a matter of individual interpretation.
No, you don’t; Nick changes the timing of the attack that would normally take place on your Bonus Action, it does not duplicate it. The Light property explicitly says you get one extra attack. Nick changes the timing of that one extra attack, it does not grant another one. This is clearly spelled out in the PHB, not a matter of individual interpretation.
At no point did I say Nick duplicates it. Using two light weapons grants you two of these, but without Nick, you cannot use both of them.
The Light property adds one attack, but does not say that it only works once per turn. It is silent about that, deferring the limit to the Bonus Action rule.
Consider the difference between these two wordings:
1- Once per turn, when you use your Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light Weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action.
2- When you use your Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light Weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action.
The former limits how many of these Bonus Action options are being granted, no matter how many times you attack with a Light weapon. The latter does not.
The latter implies that every time you attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action, you are granted an option to “make one extra attack with a Bonus Action”. Nick says once per turn you can move one of these options to your Attack action.
Premise:
You're wielding two light weapons, one has the Nick property. For argument sake, Scimitar and Shortsword.
You attack with the Scimitar (Nick weapon). This means you can attack with the Shortsword _during_ your Attack action due to the Scimitar's Light and Nick properties. So you do.
Contention:
The Shortsword has been used during your Attack action, and is Light. Therefore: its Light property means you gain a BA attack you can use with the other weapon (Scimitar). You can only use Nick once, but the Light property's limitation is ONLY that you get 1 BA attack AND it has to be a different weapon. You're technically using Light twice, and Nick once. You're not violating Nick's once per turn rule, and Light isn't limited to once per turn. That seems to obey RAW, but might not obey RAI.
Questions:
1- Can you find a flaw in saying this obeys RAW?
2- Do you think it fits RAI?
3- Would you allow it?
1- it does not obey RAW. Nick says:
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Nick preserves your bonus action, nothing more. It allows you to make the one attack you are given as part of the attack action. When your bonus action has rolled around, you've already made the attack granted as part of your attack action. You can use the bonus action for something else, but NOT another attack (unless you have the dual wielder feat)
2 - not allowed RAW, certainly not RAI. If it was RAI, dual wielder would not be necessary.
3 - Not a chance. If you want to use that bonus action for an attack, pick up the DW feat.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Interesting. I’ve been experimenting with a fighter/warlock build.
So from what has been explained, once i unlock a second attack, I can use by bonus action to apply hex, next hit once with my shortsword to apply vex, then hit with the scimitar for nick’s bonus attack, and finally hit with a full bonus attack thanks to my two weapon fighting style, all 3 hits triggering hex. Correct?
In effect yes, though your reasoning is flawed. The fighting style has nothing to do with how many attacks you get. You get two attacks from being a fighter, and your third attack is solely due to the Light and Nick properties. The fighting style would let you add your ability score bonus to the damage of that third attack, however. If you used your bonus action to cast Hex first, then yes, all three attacks would benefit from Hex.
Sounds right, yes. Base bladelock makes your pact weapon a focus, right? Because otherwise there's technically a bit of hand juggling since you need to cover the M component of Hex when you cast it, but otherwise yeah you're good for making three attack rolls during the Attack Action, including your Light attack.
My build has warcaster at level 4, so it should cover that, right?
That cover Somatic, not Material iirc. But I checked, they did make the weapon being a focus part of the core Pact of the Blade Invocation, so there's no technicalities around that combo for casting reqs.
Yes, you can only make the Nick attack once per turn. And I said as much. And I also said that in my scenario, the Nick attack is not being made more than once in that turn.
The Light weapon attack is being made twice (once as a Nick, once as a Bonus Action). There doesn’t appear to be a limitation on this.
As written, this isn’t breaking the Nick rule.
No, you can't make a Light weapon attack more than once per turn either (practically speaking only once per round). All Nick does is change the timing of the one attack granted by the Light property; it doesn't create a duplicate attack.
you don't understand...the nick attack uses the attack you get by making an attack with a weapon. You only get that once. Either once with nick, or once with your bonus action, but not both.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Unless you have the two weapon fighting style, right?
The fighting style does nothing other than let you add your mod to the damage of the extra attack. if you have the DW feat, it does allow you an extra BA attack. It's granted by the feat, not the light property.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
To put this just a little differently, in case it helps this click:
Nick doesn't grant an attack at all. Nick attacks literally don't exist. It only changes the timing of the Light attack. So if you have 3 attacks with Light (2 Action, 1 Bonus Action) and the Nick property is active, you just move the Bonus Action attack to part of the Action. It's still the Light attack, not a Nick attack.
You might be thinking of the updated Dual Wielder Feat, not the Two Weapon Fighting Style. The Feat creates a separate Bonus Action option for attacking with any non two-handed melee weapon if you attacked with a Light weapon during your Attack Action. With the feat and Nick mastery, you can attack with a Light weapon, make your Nick attack as a part of the Attack Action, and then as a Bonus Action make another one-handed attack with a one-handed melee weapon aside from the one you made the first attack.
This debate about the Light + Nick + DW feature has already been covered in other threads, with great examples and interactions involving BA, as well as equipping and unequipping weapons:
I wonder if a moderator could pin one of the correct answers in the forum :D
The problem you’re missing is the “once per turn” is only stated under Nick, and not under Light. Light limits things via the number of Bonus Actions you get… but if you’re not using your Bonus Actions for that attack, then you still have a Bonus Actions available to use in any way that you can use a Bonus Action. If Light meant to limit things to “once per turn” it should have said that. It doesn’t.
The result is that you can only use Nick to move your Light attack to your Attack action once per turn. That’s what it means for the limit to be listed under the Nick rule and not the Light rule (whether that’s the intent or not, that is the effect of putting the limitation under the Nick rule).
Once you do that, you still have a Bonus Action available. And the OTHER light weapon you used (the non-Nick one), whose special properties haven’t been used this round, says you can use your BA to attack with your other weapon. The only limit put upon your non-Nick weapon’s granted BA attack is: you only get one BA per turn. The Light says nothing other than that about how many times you can invoke this property per turn.
I heavily expect that the INTENT is what you’re saying… but you’re entirely wrong about how it is actually WRITTEN. If the intent is what we expect, then RAW should have put that limitation in the Light rule, and not just the Nick rule, or in a sidebar that clarified how the two rules interact. But as it is: the single use per turn is only specified by what Nick does, not by what Light does.
Let me put it another way:
if you attack with two short swords. both of them have the Light property and grand you the right to use a Bonus Actiob to make an attack.. The limit here is NOT how many times the Light property can be used per round. The limit is that you only have one Bonus Action. So you have been granted this option twice… but you can only use it once — not because of the Light rule, but because of the Bonus Action rule.
When you substitute one of those shortswords for a Light Nick Weapon, you still are being granted two Bonus Action attacks, but Nick lets you (once per turn) move one of them to the attack action. This means you still have your Bonus Action available to use with your other granted attack.
No, you don’t; Nick changes the timing of the attack that would normally take place on your Bonus Action, it does not duplicate it. The Light property explicitly says you get one extra attack. Nick changes the timing of that one extra attack, it does not grant another one. This is clearly spelled out in the PHB, not a matter of individual interpretation.
At no point did I say Nick duplicates it. Using two light weapons grants you two of these, but without Nick, you cannot use both of them.
The Light property adds one attack, but does not say that it only works once per turn. It is silent about that, deferring the limit to the Bonus Action rule.
Consider the difference between these two wordings:
1- Once per turn, when you use your Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light Weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action.
2- When you use your Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light Weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action.
The former limits how many of these Bonus Action options are being granted, no matter how many times you attack with a Light weapon. The latter does not.
The latter implies that every time you attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action, you are granted an option to “make one extra attack with a Bonus Action”. Nick says once per turn you can move one of these options to your Attack action.
The latter wording is what the book says.