So if I read correctly for a Fighter or other level 5 melee class that has extra attack, fighting style feat and weapon mastery...
Light Weapons now have this rule: "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
Take Two-Weapon Fighting Style Feat: "When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage."
Take Weapon Mastery: Nick- "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." Vex-"If you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn."
Take Dual Wielder general feat at level 4: "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."
Equip main hand scimitar and offhand shortsword (or dagger).
Is this correct?
1) First main hand attack scimitar with Nick mastery. Grants extra attack without using bonus action. 2) Nick mastery offhand attack with shortsword. Vex grants advantage on next attack. 3) Extra attack (at level 5) with main hand scimitar at advantage from Vex. Dual Wielder (at level 4) grants bonus action attack. 4) Bonus action attack from Dual Wielder with offhand shortsword. Vex grants advantage on 1st attack next turn.
Presumably you could do some drop and draw shenanigans to make the fourth attack with something like a longsword instead. And probably other combos I haven't considered yet.
Anyway, four attacks in one turn at level 5, 1d6+ability modifier damage for all 4 attacks, thanks to Two-Weapon Fighting? After round one, two of the attacks are at advantage?
Seems a little OP, especially if you take one or more rogue levels after, as you are almost guaranteed to land an attack for sneak damage. Or later add Hunter's Mark or Hex damage to 4 attacks from something like Fey Touched or from Ranger etc. I probably missed some nuance in the wording or maybe it works as written but not as intended?
Weapon Master should be something to look at for Monks. That would be four attacks at level four if you only spent a Focus Point and five attacks at 5th level. Six attacks at 10th level. Yeah the only draw back is you don't get to use your plus modifier.
This may seem like a lot but the math breakdown vs. using a 2hand/ranged weapon + Fighting Style Feat + general feat its all on par. All that matters is how you want to play, there are no bad options.
Want to play a guy with Two-Weapons cool slice and dice away brother. Maybe you want to play wielding a massive 2handed club or sword, swing away. Close combat not your style well Archer shoot for the stars.
Yeah I haven't looked at improvements on the alternative builds like monk or 2-handers for 2024, but 4 attacks at level 5, all with modifier of +4 or +5 (if custom lineage allowed) seemed like a big upgrade vs. previous rules. Just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something in the logic. The option to throw a couple daggers with the Nick free attack is also nice.
It actually does add another attack. Nick causes the attack given by the light property to be transfer to the attack action instead of your bonus action, preserving your bonus action to benefit from the wording of duel wielder, "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon" vs the wording from the light property, "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn." Because the wording of Nick supercedes the light property, "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
going to do this using Rules as written. So to do this, I will show all rules as they are relevant. Plus to do this a minimum of level 5 Fighter, recommend level 8, 5 fighter 3 rogue.
Bonus Actions Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a Bonus Action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a Rogue to take a Bonus Action. You can take a Bonus Action only when a special ability, a spell, or another feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action. You otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.
You can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use if you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
You only have 1 bonus action per turn. For two weapon fighting this is essential information.
Light When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Here we see we can use a second light weapon as a bonus attack. Very cool.
Nick When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Thus preserving your bonus action, you need another attack action to allow for an attack bonus but we get there.
The Nick Weapons.
Dagger 1d4 Piercing Finesse, Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) Nick Light Hammer 1d4 Bludgeoning Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) Nick Sickle1d4 Slashing LightNick Scimitar1d6 Slashing Finesse, Light Nick
Pay attention to both Finesse and Light properties for this one.
Vex If you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn.
Opening up a strat here, so work with me.
Melee Vex weapons, ranged options not included so no dart, which btw could make an even more broken combo Handaxe 1d6 Slashing Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) Vex Rapier 1d8 Piercing FinesseVex Shortsword 1d6 Piercing Finesse, LightVex
Pay special attention to Finesse and Light. As this combo requires specific weapons and builds.
When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage.
building still need more.
Dual Wielder General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Quick Draw.You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Some fun combos here btw, besides the one you are thinking.
Level 5: Extra Attack
You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
For this to work you will need this, Fighter/Rogue makes for the best use of these. Or if you want to really get tricky, in 2024 new added note in the PHB in chapter 1.
Critical Hits
When you score a Critical Hit, you deal extra damage. Roll the attack’s damage dice twice, add them together, and add any relevant modifiers as normal. For example, if you score a Critical Hit with a Dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage rather than 1d4, and add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the Rogue’s Sneak Attack feature, you also roll those dice twice.
So to pull off what the OP is asking you need 3 or 4 weapons. Main hand Dagger, Off Hand Dagger, and at least one Sheathed Short Sword.
Working out how it should look per RAW:
1stquick draw main hand stow Shortsword draw Dagger (1d4 Piercing Finesse, Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) Nick)
2nd Nickattack, quick draw main hand stow dagger draw Shortsword (1d6 Piercing Finesse, Light Vex)
All nick does is preserve your bonus action, so that the one off-hand bonus attack is folded in the attack action.
All dual wielder does is remove the requirement that both weapons be light - it doesn't give an additional attack of any kind.,
So, your 1, 2, and 3 are correct, but I don't know how you get yet another attack for your step 4.
This is incorrect. The Dual Wielder feat allows an attack as a bonus action separate from the one granted by the Light property.
No, it's still dependent on the light property - it just removes the requirement that the second weapon also be light.
That was my original understanding, but I've heard Crawford is on record as saying that it creates another bonus-action attack, so if Nick is in effect, your BA is freed up to be used for Dual Wielder.
Which seems like one of those rulings that he loves -- like a little "gotcha" hidden in the rules that is created out of vague language but then suddenly blessed as the "correct" interpretation whenever someone points out a seeming hole in the RAW... as if he's in a kind of Rules-Lawyer Where's Waldo game. And it's especially galling when these weird interpretations lead to strange side-effects.. like how Invisible used to give advantage even if you could be seen through See Invisible. And that was supposed to be how it was intended to work (complete with silly rationalizations). Or how Crossbow Expert 2014 wouldn't actually let you "off-hand" the hand crossbow with a different weapon (because of Ammunition needing a free hand), so the only way to make it work was to "fan the hammer" on a single hand-crossbow (despite it seemingly being intended to support a swashbuckling rapier-and-handcrossbow style in the artwork). (Notably the 2024 Crossbow expert explicitly fixes this by removing the ammo restraint -- which they could have done with Errata as early as 2014, but nooooo, we must double-down on the RAW as if we actually intended it to be that way!)
I guess I needed to rant a little. lol. But yeah -- the current ruling is that they intended this, and Dual Wielder isn't _just_ about a size increase.
(side note, I don't mind that much, especially if Dual Wielder can finally catch up to 2H melee, since 2014 DW is notoriously underpowered)
All nick does is preserve your bonus action, so that the one off-hand bonus attack is folded in the attack action.
All dual wielder does is remove the requirement that both weapons be light - it doesn't give an additional attack of any kind.,
So, your 1, 2, and 3 are correct, but I don't know how you get yet another attack for your step 4.
This is incorrect. The Dual Wielder feat allows an attack as a bonus action separate from the one granted by the Light property.
No, it's still dependent on the light property - it just removes the requirement that the second weapon also be light.
Its debatable to the letter.
The more RAW people take it as a different extra attack than Light, since its a second trigger activated by attacking with a Light Weapon. Nick folds the light weapon property bonus action attack into the attack action, but you still have the Dual Wielder trigger active and a free bonus action. Also, as many youtubers have said, they asked jeremy crawford confirming that interpretation (take it as you prefer it).
On the other hand, on my first reading I did agree with your interpretation that it just replaces the kind of weapon you can use the extra attack with. Just as it was in the 2014 PHB.
But I do think it will vary table to table until an official errata clarifies it better.
Yeah, as written you can make three attacks off one light weapon attack if you have both Nick and Dual Wielder, because Nick modifies the light property's rule, while Dual Wielder doesn't, making it a separate thing.
If they meant it to work that way, they should have made it far clearer.
Almost. The bonus action attack you get from dual wielder doesn't get your ability modifier to its damage, but the one you get from the light property does.
Almost. The bonus action attack you get from dual wielder doesn't get your ability modifier to its damage, but the one you get from the light property does.
Still pretty op tho.
No, the light property (and nick) also doesn't give damage bonus on the second attack.
All nick does is preserve your bonus action, so that the one off-hand bonus attack is folded in the attack action.
All dual wielder does is remove the requirement that both weapons be light - it doesn't give an additional attack of any kind.,
So, your 1, 2, and 3 are correct, but I don't know how you get yet another attack for your step 4.
This is incorrect. The Dual Wielder feat allows an attack as a bonus action separate from the one granted by the Light property.
No, it's still dependent on the light property - it just removes the requirement that the second weapon also be light.
That’s incorrect. The Dual Wielder feat explicitly gives you the ability to make an extra attack as a bonus action. Normally that would conflict with the Light property, which also requires your bonus action, but if using a Nick weapon, the Light property’s extra attack is part of your action, leaving your bonus action free to make use of the extra attack Dual Wielder very unambiguously allows you.
Treantmonk Update on today's video: Monty from the Dungeon Dudes contacted me to let me know he had asked Jeremy Crawford about Dual Wielder at Gencon, and here's how it works: It provides a single bonus action attack, so if you are using a weapon with the Nick Mastery that's one more attack. Two Weapon Fighting does add your ability score modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
And from the also top comment, since it reads so easily.
tomislavtomic5085 I'm pretty sure we're overcomplicating things regarding dual wielding. My interpretation: Everyone may take an offhand attack as a bonus action without adding the ability modifier. Nick allows it without using up the bonus action. The dual wielder feat allows 2 offhand attacks (one from Nick and one from the bonus action). The two weapon fighting style allows us to add the ability score modifier to any offhand attack we may have. That's logical and balanced progression IMO and probably what the designers intended.
Seems to validate my thinking in the OP. I just got the 2024 rules a couple days ago and couldn't find any topics on it here with a quick search, but it looks like people have been debating it elsewhere for at least a few weeks. The real OPness comes from having ability/weapon modifier on all four 1d6 attacks and then adding Hunters Mark or Paladin Smites or any anything else that might stack each attack, or even once per turn on hit like Ranger Colossus or Goliath Fire Burn, Paladin smites or Rogue Sneak attack on a multiclass. Level 5 is also Haste time, adding just Hunters Mark die to all five 1d6+modifier attacks seems crazy even if you don't add Hunter or Fey Wanderer or Gloom Stalker adders.
So if I read correctly for a Fighter or other level 5 melee class that has extra attack, fighting style feat and weapon mastery...
Light Weapons now have this rule:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
Take Two-Weapon Fighting Style Feat:
"When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage."
Take Weapon Mastery:
Nick- "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
Vex-"If you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn."
Take Dual Wielder general feat at level 4:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."
Equip main hand scimitar and offhand shortsword (or dagger).
Is this correct?
1) First main hand attack scimitar with Nick mastery. Grants extra attack without using bonus action.
2) Nick mastery offhand attack with shortsword. Vex grants advantage on next attack.
3) Extra attack (at level 5) with main hand scimitar at advantage from Vex. Dual Wielder (at level 4) grants bonus action attack.
4) Bonus action attack from Dual Wielder with offhand shortsword. Vex grants advantage on 1st attack next turn.
Presumably you could do some drop and draw shenanigans to make the fourth attack with something like a longsword instead. And probably other combos I haven't considered yet.
Anyway, four attacks in one turn at level 5, 1d6+ability modifier damage for all 4 attacks, thanks to Two-Weapon Fighting? After round one, two of the attacks are at advantage?
Seems a little OP, especially if you take one or more rogue levels after, as you are almost guaranteed to land an attack for sneak damage. Or later add Hunter's Mark or Hex damage to 4 attacks from something like Fey Touched or from Ranger etc. I probably missed some nuance in the wording or maybe it works as written but not as intended?
Weapon Master should be something to look at for Monks. That would be four attacks at level four if you only spent a Focus Point and five attacks at 5th level. Six attacks at 10th level. Yeah the only draw back is you don't get to use your plus modifier.
This may seem like a lot but the math breakdown vs. using a 2hand/ranged weapon + Fighting Style Feat + general feat its all on par.
All that matters is how you want to play, there are no bad options.
Want to play a guy with Two-Weapons cool slice and dice away brother.
Maybe you want to play wielding a massive 2handed club or sword, swing away.
Close combat not your style well Archer shoot for the stars.
It's all good
Yeah I haven't looked at improvements on the alternative builds like monk or 2-handers for 2024, but 4 attacks at level 5, all with modifier of +4 or +5 (if custom lineage allowed) seemed like a big upgrade vs. previous rules. Just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something in the logic. The option to throw a couple daggers with the Nick free attack is also nice.
Using the subtraction method of reply, I answered your question in the quote. Rules as Written.
Does that mean you agree with my interpretation of "as written" ?
All nick does is preserve your bonus action, so that the one off-hand bonus attack is folded in the attack action.
All dual wielder does is remove the requirement that both weapons be light - it doesn't give an additional attack of any kind.,
So, your 1, 2, and 3 are correct, but I don't know how you get yet another attack for your step 4.
It actually does add another attack. Nick causes the attack given by the light property to be transfer to the attack action instead of your bonus action, preserving your bonus action to benefit from the wording of duel wielder, "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon" vs the wording from the light property, "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn." Because the wording of Nick supercedes the light property, "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This is incorrect. The Dual Wielder feat allows an attack as a bonus action separate from the one granted by the Light property.
No, it's still dependent on the light property - it just removes the requirement that the second weapon also be light.
going to do this using Rules as written. So to do this, I will show all rules as they are relevant. Plus to do this a minimum of level 5 Fighter, recommend level 8, 5 fighter 3 rogue.
You only have 1 bonus action per turn. For two weapon fighting this is essential information.
Here we see we can use a second light weapon as a bonus attack. Very cool.
Thus preserving your bonus action, you need another attack action to allow for an attack bonus but we get there.
The Nick Weapons.
Dagger 1d4 Piercing Finesse, Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) Nick
Light Hammer 1d4 Bludgeoning Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) NickSickle 1d4 Slashing Light NickScimitar 1d6 Slashing Finesse, Light NickPay attention to both Finesse and Light properties for this one.
Opening up a strat here, so work with me.
Melee Vex weapons, ranged options not included so no dart, which btw could make an even more broken combo
Handaxe 1d6 Slashing Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) VexRapier 1d8 Piercing Finesse VexShortsword 1d6 Piercing Finesse, Light Vex
Pay special attention to Finesse and Light. As this combo requires specific weapons and builds.
Now to the real crunchy bits:
building still need more.
Some fun combos here btw, besides the one you are thinking.
For this to work you will need this, Fighter/Rogue makes for the best use of these. Or if you want to really get tricky, in 2024 new added note in the PHB in chapter 1.
So to pull off what the OP is asking you need 3 or 4 weapons. Main hand Dagger, Off Hand Dagger, and at least one Sheathed Short Sword.
Working out how it should look per RAW:
1st quick draw main hand stow Shortsword draw Dagger (1d4 Piercing Finesse, Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) Nick)
2nd Nick attack, quick draw main hand stow dagger draw Shortsword (1d6 Piercing Finesse, Light Vex)
3rd offhand bonus attack at advantage Dagger (1d4 Piercing Finesse, Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) Nick)
4th Main hand Nick Attack Shortsword (1d6 Piercing Finesse, Light Vex)You can make this extra attack only once per turn.4th Enhanced Dual Wielding bonus attack: off hand bonus Dagger (1d4 Piercing Finesse, Light, Thrown (Range 20/60) Nick)
Level 5: Extra Attack
5th main hand attack Shortsword (1d6 Piercing Finesse, Light Vex)
You can do this every turn.
edit 2: hells just doing the better combo
That was my original understanding, but I've heard Crawford is on record as saying that it creates another bonus-action attack, so if Nick is in effect, your BA is freed up to be used for Dual Wielder.
Which seems like one of those rulings that he loves -- like a little "gotcha" hidden in the rules that is created out of vague language but then suddenly blessed as the "correct" interpretation whenever someone points out a seeming hole in the RAW... as if he's in a kind of Rules-Lawyer Where's Waldo game. And it's especially galling when these weird interpretations lead to strange side-effects.. like how Invisible used to give advantage even if you could be seen through See Invisible. And that was supposed to be how it was intended to work (complete with silly rationalizations). Or how Crossbow Expert 2014 wouldn't actually let you "off-hand" the hand crossbow with a different weapon (because of Ammunition needing a free hand), so the only way to make it work was to "fan the hammer" on a single hand-crossbow (despite it seemingly being intended to support a swashbuckling rapier-and-handcrossbow style in the artwork).
(Notably the 2024 Crossbow expert explicitly fixes this by removing the ammo restraint -- which they could have done with Errata as early as 2014, but nooooo, we must double-down on the RAW as if we actually intended it to be that way!)
I guess I needed to rant a little. lol. But yeah -- the current ruling is that they intended this, and Dual Wielder isn't _just_ about a size increase.
(side note, I don't mind that much, especially if Dual Wielder can finally catch up to 2H melee, since 2014 DW is notoriously underpowered)
Its debatable to the letter.
The more RAW people take it as a different extra attack than Light, since its a second trigger activated by attacking with a Light Weapon.
Nick folds the light weapon property bonus action attack into the attack action, but you still have the Dual Wielder trigger active and a free bonus action.
Also, as many youtubers have said, they asked jeremy crawford confirming that interpretation (take it as you prefer it).
On the other hand, on my first reading I did agree with your interpretation that it just replaces the kind of weapon you can use the extra attack with. Just as it was in the 2014 PHB.
But I do think it will vary table to table until an official errata clarifies it better.
Yeah, as written you can make three attacks off one light weapon attack if you have both Nick and Dual Wielder, because Nick modifies the light property's rule, while Dual Wielder doesn't, making it a separate thing.
If they meant it to work that way, they should have made it far clearer.
Almost. The bonus action attack you get from dual wielder doesn't get your ability modifier to its damage, but the one you get from the light property does.
Still pretty op tho.
No, the light property (and nick) also doesn't give damage bonus on the second attack.
Maybe I'm not understanding this part correctly. How do you get two bonus attacks?
That’s incorrect. The Dual Wielder feat explicitly gives you the ability to make an extra attack as a bonus action. Normally that would conflict with the Light property, which also requires your bonus action, but if using a Nick weapon, the Light property’s extra attack is part of your action, leaving your bonus action free to make use of the extra attack Dual Wielder very unambiguously allows you.
I'll just quote the comment on Treantmonk's vid from here since I can't bother uploading the screenshot to an image hosting site.
And from the also top comment, since it reads so easily.
Seems to validate my thinking in the OP. I just got the 2024 rules a couple days ago and couldn't find any topics on it here with a quick search, but it looks like people have been debating it elsewhere for at least a few weeks. The real OPness comes from having ability/weapon modifier on all four 1d6 attacks and then adding Hunters Mark or Paladin Smites or any anything else that might stack each attack, or even once per turn on hit like Ranger Colossus or Goliath Fire Burn, Paladin smites or Rogue Sneak attack on a multiclass. Level 5 is also Haste time, adding just Hunters Mark die to all five 1d6+modifier attacks seems crazy even if you don't add Hunter or Fey Wanderer or Gloom Stalker adders.