There is just no way an Elf with a passive perception of say 15ish can be sitting by the guy on watch and completely miss something just because he isn't "on watch".
The passive check rules do not exempt a character from having to be making an attempt - it's passive meaning the player doesn't roll dice, not passive meaning the character isn't still taking the action that allows the check. So no, you don't get your passive perception just because you are awake, you still have to be not so wrapped up in other activity as to not notice (see these rules for supporting evidence).
But it is entirely possible. If one player says they are going to go hunt do you now forbid the party from taking a long rest just because one party member decides to do something else?
Or what if I want to suddenly explore the noise we hear? Are you going to say I can't do that or make the entire party's long rest restart because I wondered off?
Basically you are saying if the party wants to stand and plan they can't have anyone on watch or else they can't complete a long rest without leaving a period where no one is on watch. So do they have to walk ten feet before you will let them start a long rest without being penalized?
You are mischaracterizing what I said - which is that trying to get rest benefits for you while skirting or intentionally gaming the rest rules is not something I think is intended, and would not personally allow - as something completely different.
So what you are saying with your anology is that anyone who gets a discount on lunch (Elf Trance) can actually spend more on beverages (watch)?
Yes I know you aren't but your anology does work to support a longer watch time as well.
No, elves do not get to stand watch for more than 2 hours - their trance feature does not create any exception to the 2 hour limitation rule for them. Note: I'm still using the rules as according to my first printing book + errata, rather than the new and completely different wording that Jeremy Crawford is clearly confused about if he believes is just clarification and not a completely different rule.
Right. But if you don't require sleep during a long rest, a fighter who is uninjured would not need a long rest.
That's not completely accurate, as there are fighter class features that only recharge upon completing a long rest. Also, you are conflating things that aren't necessary to treat as the same - one does not need to mandate a certain number of hours sleep be part of a long rest for one to have there be consequences for not getting any (or enough) sleep each day, meaning even if a fighter that doesn't need a long rest will still need to sleep or face consequences (whatever the DM has made them, since the rules are not specific about what they are).
There is just no way an Elf with a passive perception of say 15ish can be sitting by the guy on watch and completely miss something just because he isn't "on watch".
The passive check rules do not exempt a character from having to be making an attempt - it's passive meaning the player doesn't roll dice, not passive meaning the character isn't still taking the action that allows the check. So no, you don't get your passive perception just because you are awake, you still have to be not so wrapped up in other activity as to not notice (see these rules for supporting evidence).
My point here is that the elf is doing nothing. Just sitting there next to the guy on watch, doing basically the same things as the guy on watch, but he isn't on watch because of the imposed 2 hour max. that he can be on watch. So he is not wrapped up in any other activity. He is doing nothing. To say he doesn't get a check because he isn't on watch even though he is doing nothing is just silly.
I would even argue that reading a book is not sufficient activity to warrant not having a check, unless the monsters were completely silent and made absolutely no sound.
But it is entirely possible. If one player says they are going to go hunt do you now forbid the party from taking a long rest just because one party member decides to do something else?
Or what if I want to suddenly explore the noise we hear? Are you going to say I can't do that or make the entire party's long rest restart because I wondered off?
Basically you are saying if the party wants to stand and plan they can't have anyone on watch or else they can't complete a long rest without leaving a period where no one is on watch. So do they have to walk ten feet before you will let them start a long rest without being penalized?
You are mischaracterizing what I said - which is that trying to get rest benefits for you while skirting or intentionally gaming the rest rules is not something I think is intended, and would not personally allow - as something completely different.
I am not mischaracterizing what you said. You specifically stated it was a group thing. I simply brought up a theoretical possibility where one PC choses to do something other than rest at the exact same time as everyone else. If the PC hunts for an hour and then returns to camp are you going to say they can't take a long rest now even if they spend the next 8 hours sleeping?
So what you are saying with your anology is that anyone who gets a discount on lunch (Elf Trance) can actually spend more on beverages (watch)?
Yes I know you aren't but your anology does work to support a longer watch time as well.
No, elves do not get to stand watch for more than 2 hours - their trance feature does not create any exception to the 2 hour limitation rule for them. Note: I'm still using the rules as according to my first printing book + errata, rather than the new and completely different wording that Jeremy Crawford is clearly confused about if he believes is just clarification and not a completely different rule.
Your analogy still allows elves staying on watch for over two hours, which was my point. Obviously I know you don't support that, but the specific analogy you chose to use would allow for evles to stay on watch for over two hours.
Right. But if you don't require sleep during a long rest, a fighter who is uninjured would not need a long rest.
That's not completely accurate, as there are fighter class features that only recharge upon completing a long rest. Also, you are conflating things that aren't necessary to treat as the same - one does not need to mandate a certain number of hours sleep be part of a long rest for one to have there be consequences for not getting any (or enough) sleep each day, meaning even if a fighter that doesn't need a long rest will still need to sleep or face consequences (whatever the DM has made them, since the rules are not specific about what they are).
There are fighter class features that would recharge upon completing a long rest, but obviously an uninjured fighter has probably not used those either. If you would like simply add "uninjured and who hasn't used any features requiring a long rest" to my statement.
If you are going to have consequences for not sleeping, then when else would the PCs sleep? This whole thing started with you not requiring them to sleep during a long rest, so then when do you force them to sleep? It doesn't make sense that PCs would spend a long rest awake then before 24 hours is up sleep, then camp again to spend another 8 hours doing nothing. That would be wasting like 16 hours a day when they could just sleep during a long rest.
Is it just my imagination, or are you two saying almost exactly the same thing?
Almost exactly is probably almost exactly right.
Basically I would say that PCs need to sleep during a long rest, because, when else would they sleep? Any penalty for not sleeping I think should be sufficient that by not doing it, it would be impossible to complete a long rest. I honestly don't know why a DM would let a PC not sleep during a long rest and still gain all the benefits of a long rest. Like how does an exhausted person who hasn't slept benefit from a thing called long rest?
The second thing is that based on my reading of the old rules and the change in the current printing, I would say an elf could take watch for over 2 hours because all light activity is restricted to 2 hours, Sleep is therefore restricted to 6. So basically you can only sleep or perform light activity, so if the sleep requirement drops to 4, then the watch/light activity portion must be extended to 4, because there are only 2 options during a long rest (sleep and light activity).
I don't see this being different in either printing of the book, as I think they both say the same thing, just the second one clarifies the intent.
But this is also where it gets problematic, in that Crawford originally stated that sleep was optional during a long rest. He somehow forgot he said that and now states that the "rule change" is a minor clarification not worthy of errata status.
The way I was led to understand it, yes an elf only needs four hours for trance but they can still only take one watch because its not guaranteed to be light activity, actually being that alert is considered higher activity. If your elves want to spend the other two hours on DOWNTIME activities I'm for it. Trance replaces sleep, not long rests. They are not mutually inclusive, you can sleep during a short rest, you can be magicaly put to sleep for prolonged periods, that doesnt mean when you wake up you've had a long rest. I think of trance more as a mental recovery than a physical one, but because you are awake and aware more thats huge...
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For my attack I will throw my spear...two handed...for 1d8...
According to the rules watch is a light activity. Technically you can do straneous activity for no more than an hour. ( basically to prevent the long rest being interrupted should a 30 second encounter occur.)
My point here is that the elf is doing nothing. Just sitting there next to the guy on watch, doing basically the same things as the guy on watch, but he isn't on watch because of the imposed 2 hour max. that he can be on watch. So he is not wrapped up in any other activity. He is doing nothing. To say he doesn't get a check because he isn't on watch even though he is doing nothing is just silly.
The silly thing, in my opinion, is thinking that "doing nothing" and "standing watch" are equivalent - and also the player making a declaration along the lines of "No, I'm not on watch of anything like that. I'm just hanging out doing nothing." and being upset that the DM decided "nothing" meant not the thing that brings on an ability check according to the game rules.
I would even argue that reading a book is not sufficient activity to warrant not having a check, unless the monsters were completely silent and made absolutely no sound.
Not sufficient for your personal ruling as a DM; fine. Not sufficient for the written rules; not so much, since reading a book is roughly as engaging as making a map but actually involves less looking around at your surroundings and the rules are clear that someone can't be both making a map and using their passive perception to notice threats.
I am not mischaracterizing what you said.
You are, even if you didn't mean to, by treating a thing which I have now clarified for you as being different as though I would consider it to be the same.
If the PC hunts for an hour and then returns to camp are you going to say they can't take a long rest now even if they spend the next 8 hours sleeping?
Hunting for a hour would interrupt their long rest according to the rules, and they would then be able to restart their long rest and would be required to do so if they wanted the benefits of a long rest. My issue only arrives when a player is attempting to game the rest rules so that they gain the benefits of a long rest without experiencing the limitations or drawbacks established by the rules - such as by including more than 2 hours of watch in the 8+ hours spent towards completion of their long rest.
Your analogy still allows elves staying on watch for over two hours, which was my point. Obviously I know you don't support that, but the specific analogy you chose to use would allow for evles to stay on watch for over two hours.
That the same terms can be used in a different analogy does not change the meaning of my analogy.
...when do you force them to sleep?
I do not force characters to sleep other than as a result of having fallen under the effects of a spell. Players have their characters choose to sleep, usually during a long rest, for 4 hours (or 6 if they have a party large enough to have an 8 hour watch schedule) because that amount works fine for us as a group given our experience with such sleeping schedules and the characters getting a lot more (and more comfortable) sleep when not "out adventuring."
The effects of that level of sleep deprivation are entirely noticeable, but are not so potent on the short term (a week or two on such a schedule before getting back to a healthier amount of sleep) that they warrant any mechanical representation.
If any of my players ever decide to have their characters go without sleep, I'll figure out how we are going to handle that in specifics and be sure to fill you in.
If you are allowing humans 4 hours of sleep then you are essentially ignoring the elf trance rules in order to keep some horrible interpretation of the long rest rules.
I'm going to (probably regret this, I mean) chime in on this. The first sentence of the Trance paragraph states that "Elves don't need to sleep", they meditate for 4 hours and gain the exact same benefits as 8 hours of a human sleeping. This means that if a group decides to long rest, an elf can meditate for 4 hours and then watch for 4 hours because they are no longer meditating or in ANY state of rest. It's no different then someone staying awake for 8 hours to watch the rest of the party as they rest. That person is not in a state of rest so they are able to watch for as long as they please.
Honestly, the worst part of this thread is that I have absolutely no clue who I'm agreeing with.
I think you've found the actual question; is standing on watch considered light activity?
I quote below the wording from the last printing:
A long rest is period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more of 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.
It seems to me that "standing watch" is one of the alternatives of light activity.
The new printing is clear that light activity is things like reading, talking, eating, or standing watch, which can be no more than two hours. What is unclear about it is exactly what happens with Elves. A long rest being at least 8 hours, at least 6 hours of sleep and no more than 2 hours of light activity. The question is what happens when you drop sleep down to 4 hours. The elf trance ability is awkwardly worded because it says that an elf gains the benefit of sleep in only 4 hours, yet the book never defines what the benefit of sleep is. I would argue the only quantifiable benefit the book offers for sleep would have to be a long rest. One could perhaps argue that it is not exhaustion, but the rules never specify how long you can go without sleep before exhaustion sets in. It is a weirdly worded because it says 8 hours, but other creatures only have to sleep 6. I don't think the book offers any real guidance on if elves only need 4 hours for a long rest or 6 (reducing sleep, but assuming light activity remains) or 8.
But practically in a game I think it is easiest to say that an elf needs 4 hours rest, and then must spend the remaining 4 hours in light activity. This way elves don't benefit or are penalized for finishing a long rest before everyone else. (When an elf has a long rest shorter than the party, one could argue an encounter during those last 2-4 hours will benefit the elf should there be no other encounters that day because they have regained all their resources, but will penalize an elf should there be more encounters because the elf will lose resources and not regain them till the following night).
The old wording seems to some to limit only the watch portion of a short rest to two hours, while other activities can go longer, and one need not sleep.
I have an interesting thought. Nothing in the rules says that Elves cannot sleep/trance more than 4 hours, right? It's a minimum rather than a hard set period. So an Elf could sleep/trance for more than 4 hours and still have the benefits of the full rest.
So elves can trance for 6 hours as humans could sleep for 6 hours. Oddly, it seems only nitpicky to assume that elves only require 4 hours a night (or in a 24 hour period).
An elf could:
2 hours on watch, 4 hours of trance, then 2 hours of study/prayer/maintenance/craft/self-pleasure.
Likewise, an elf could:
5 hours of trance, 1 hour of study/et al., then 2 hours on watch.
or:
2 hours of watch, 4 hours of trance, 2 hours of light frolicking.
or:
2 hours of watch, 5 hours of eating a high-fiber diet, and 1 hour of regretting said food.
An elf could stay in trance longer, but in a hostile situation (I.e. out in the wilderness wondering about) it makes most sense to maximize your watch time so as to help the party be less likely to be caught off guard.
If you are allowing humans 4 hours of sleep then you are essentially ignoring the elf trance rules in order to keep some horrible interpretation of the long rest rules.
That is false. Even with the way I handle things being more beneficial for non-elves, elves still have a leg-up thanks to trance because they are not unconscious during their trance and they are getting the benefit of 8 hours of sleep, which means they can be on "adventuring schedule" indefinitely while all the non-elves will start reaching the mechanically representable intensities of sleep deprivation if they keep on the schedule that a normal, watch-scheduled long rest is rather than taking some "time off" to actually get a full night's sleep (in a real bed, after eating a kitchen-cooked meal).
The Sage Advice Compendium gathers official rules answers in one PDF. This month, I’ve revisited some old answers in it and expanded or clarified them. The compendium also includes links to the new errata documents.
You can see which sections of the compendium are new or substantially revised by looking for any paragraph in a shaded box.
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed. [This answer has been altered as a result of a tweak to the rules for a long rest, which appears in newer printings of the Player’s Handbook.]
Is it just my imagination, or are you two saying almost exactly the same thing?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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The way I was led to understand it, yes an elf only needs four hours for trance but they can still only take one watch because its not guaranteed to be light activity, actually being that alert is considered higher activity. If your elves want to spend the other two hours on DOWNTIME activities I'm for it. Trance replaces sleep, not long rests. They are not mutually inclusive, you can sleep during a short rest, you can be magicaly put to sleep for prolonged periods, that doesnt mean when you wake up you've had a long rest. I think of trance more as a mental recovery than a physical one, but because you are awake and aware more thats huge...
For my attack I will throw my spear...two handed...for 1d8...
According to the rules watch is a light activity. Technically you can do straneous activity for no more than an hour. ( basically to prevent the long rest being interrupted should a 30 second encounter occur.)
I do not force characters to sleep other than as a result of having fallen under the effects of a spell. Players have their characters choose to sleep, usually during a long rest, for 4 hours (or 6 if they have a party large enough to have an 8 hour watch schedule) because that amount works fine for us as a group given our experience with such sleeping schedules and the characters getting a lot more (and more comfortable) sleep when not "out adventuring."
The effects of that level of sleep deprivation are entirely noticeable, but are not so potent on the short term (a week or two on such a schedule before getting back to a healthier amount of sleep) that they warrant any mechanical representation.
If any of my players ever decide to have their characters go without sleep, I'll figure out how we are going to handle that in specifics and be sure to fill you in.
If you are allowing humans 4 hours of sleep then you are essentially ignoring the elf trance rules in order to keep some horrible interpretation of the long rest rules.
I don't know about you, but when I get only 4 hours of sleep, there are disadvantages and modifiers to my attitude.
I'm going to (probably regret this, I mean) chime in on this. The first sentence of the Trance paragraph states that "Elves don't need to sleep", they meditate for 4 hours and gain the exact same benefits as 8 hours of a human sleeping. This means that if a group decides to long rest, an elf can meditate for 4 hours and then watch for 4 hours because they are no longer meditating or in ANY state of rest. It's no different then someone staying awake for 8 hours to watch the rest of the party as they rest. That person is not in a state of rest so they are able to watch for as long as they please.
Honestly, the worst part of this thread is that I have absolutely no clue who I'm agreeing with.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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For what it is worth, I agree with you.
An elf must meditate 4 hours during a long rest. The rest of the long rest, the elf can do light activity, including standing on watch.
I think you've found the actual question; is standing on watch considered light activity?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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The new printing is clear that light activity is things like reading, talking, eating, or standing watch, which can be no more than two hours. What is unclear about it is exactly what happens with Elves. A long rest being at least 8 hours, at least 6 hours of sleep and no more than 2 hours of light activity. The question is what happens when you drop sleep down to 4 hours. The elf trance ability is awkwardly worded because it says that an elf gains the benefit of sleep in only 4 hours, yet the book never defines what the benefit of sleep is. I would argue the only quantifiable benefit the book offers for sleep would have to be a long rest. One could perhaps argue that it is not exhaustion, but the rules never specify how long you can go without sleep before exhaustion sets in. It is a weirdly worded because it says 8 hours, but other creatures only have to sleep 6. I don't think the book offers any real guidance on if elves only need 4 hours for a long rest or 6 (reducing sleep, but assuming light activity remains) or 8.
But practically in a game I think it is easiest to say that an elf needs 4 hours rest, and then must spend the remaining 4 hours in light activity. This way elves don't benefit or are penalized for finishing a long rest before everyone else. (When an elf has a long rest shorter than the party, one could argue an encounter during those last 2-4 hours will benefit the elf should there be no other encounters that day because they have regained all their resources, but will penalize an elf should there be more encounters because the elf will lose resources and not regain them till the following night).
The old wording seems to some to limit only the watch portion of a short rest to two hours, while other activities can go longer, and one need not sleep.
I have an interesting thought. Nothing in the rules says that Elves cannot sleep/trance more than 4 hours, right? It's a minimum rather than a hard set period. So an Elf could sleep/trance for more than 4 hours and still have the benefits of the full rest.
So elves can trance for 6 hours as humans could sleep for 6 hours. Oddly, it seems only nitpicky to assume that elves only require 4 hours a night (or in a 24 hour period).
An elf could:
2 hours on watch, 4 hours of trance, then 2 hours of study/prayer/maintenance/craft/self-pleasure.
Likewise, an elf could:
5 hours of trance, 1 hour of study/et al., then 2 hours on watch.
or:
2 hours of watch, 4 hours of trance, 2 hours of light frolicking.
or:
2 hours of watch, 5 hours of eating a high-fiber diet, and 1 hour of regretting said food.
An elf could stay in trance longer, but in a hostile situation (I.e. out in the wilderness wondering about) it makes most sense to maximize your watch time so as to help the party be less likely to be caught off guard.
Update:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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